Valar Morghulis--Valar Dohaeris discussion
A Song of Ice and Fire
>
Theories & Speculations: SPOILERS for all books
Another interesting facet that I'd like to add to this theory (someone else came up with it on another ASOIAF board when they read this theory, I thought it was a really good idea so I'm slappin it together)GRRM has said that not all the dragon riders have to be Targaryen's.
(Link for back up http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Proph...)
Targaryen's have been inbreeding for years to keep there blood pure, presumedly so they could ride Dragons.
If Jon were inbred with Lyanna and Brandon, he would have pure wolf's blood.
Interestingly, there is only one other family known to be currently inbreeding in the story, the Lannister's, making the children of Cersei and Jaime pure Lion's blood.
Leaving four inbred, pure blooded children in the story for certain. Which if the presumption it requires pure blood to ride dragons, is true, is pretty damn interesting.
Oh, Amber, this is by far your craziest theory :D I'm sorry, the more I read about the theory, the less sense it makes. And it feels very forced. I'm not saying this because Rhaegar is my favorite character or that I'm a supporter of R+L=J theory, but that theory makes a lot of sense and explains why Jon is such an important character GRRM made him to be. I mean if Jon was Brandon's son,it wouldn't contribute or advance the story in any way. Jon Snow would be just an insignificant person, the product of incest between Brandon and Lyanna. I read somewhere that GRRM said Jon Snow's real mother was going to be revealed in the upcoming books but I don't see how that would happen if everyone who knew the truth is dead.
Though it doesn't make the slightest sense to me, I'm not dismissing this theory. Everything is possible in GRRM's world. But there are lot of theories out there that makes much more sense than this one. I mean, first of all, this theory is contrary to everything we know about Starks. It makes Brandon Stark either a rapist or a man with a very questionable morality. Why should Brandon rape his sister? He was engaged to be married to Catelyn and when Lyanna was presumably abducted he was on his way to his wedding. I know lady Dustin claimed that Brandon didn't love Catelyn and the whole marriage was arranged by Rickard Stark, but why should I believe her words? She was in love with Brandon, she lost her virginity to him ( I think in the book she remembers her maidenhead's blood on his penis) but she didn't get to marry her and she seems to have a miserable life.
And while I was reading the books I was often under impression that Catelyn and Brandon was in love with each other. Brandon fought a duel for Catelyn. He spared Littlefinger's life because Catelyn asked him. No matter what Dustin says (and she actually says nothing bad about Brandon), Brandon doesn't strike me as a pervert. Well, he was hot blooded, maybe he liked woman, but honestly what man doesn't? And it's not even confirmed that he had sex with Ashare Dayne during the Tourney at Harrenhal.
And as for Lyanna crying while listening to Rhaegar, Lyanna wasn't the only person to weep to Rhaegar's music, it had also made Cercei and other women weep at different times, and it's probably mentioned in the books just to show how melancholic Rhaegar's music was, because you know, it is said that Rhaegar was melancholic and sad sometimes.
However, it's just as possible she never drank moon tea because she couldn't make it herself and was afraid to ask her Maester for fear he'd reveal her secret sexual escapades. Isn't this the same reason Cersei doesn't drink it?
With the idea that Lyanna has no desire to marry Robert, it's even possible she intended to get pregnant to avoid being forced into an arrainged marriage with him. If she became pregnant, and was in love with her brother, she could have the child, tell no one who the father was, and thus, probably never have to marry anyone (due to her inpurity) and become a ward of the brother she was in love with after her fathers death, keeping them permanently together without creating an entirely questionable situation.
This again contradicts everything everyone ever says about Lyanna. Brave, strong, hotblooded Lyanna Stark has courage to have sex with his brother, despite the fact that she is promised to another one, but doesn't dare to ask for moon tea.
Also if she didn't want to marry Robert, she would just tell father, what would Rickard do after all? Force her daughter to marry Robert? Why does she have to go into all those trouble and shames herself and her family this way just to avoid marrying Robert? Again, this doesn't sound at like Lyanna that was described by everyone.
I agree the Starks are generally the most honorable, but we see through Ned's POV that they aren't necessarily honest. He keeps a secret almost his entire life. Lyanna runs away in most theories instead of following through on her betrothal. Ned even fudges Robert's final words so one day Joff can be unseated possibly. They are more honest and honorable than most characters in the story, but they are certainly not perfect.
"And even the lie was . . . not without honor." this is from a conversation between Arya and Ned. Why did I quote this? To show that Starks do it honorably even when they lie :D Ned never lied for some personal gain, he knew Joffrey was a bastard and so he did change the will to prevent Joffrey from ascending the throne. He kept that famous secret so that
I think there is also the possibility she didn't elope with Rhaegar at all. It's possible Rhaegar felt he was taking Lyanna to save her from Brandon if he was a rapist. In this case, Brandon may have wanted the child Lyanna carried aborted something I don't imagine Rheagar would approve of, especially since he is a character who longs for another child.
Honestly, why would Rhaegar take it upon himself to rescue Lyanna, who is nothing to him, when she has two other brothers and a fiance? And anyway, isn't it always said in the books that Rhaegar was in love with Lyanna? Selmy Barristan once said Rhaegar loved his Lyanna and thousands died for it, Cercei remembers how 'wounded' Rhaegar was and how she would fix him if they were married but he chose wolf girl instead. And we know that Rhaegar was obsessed with this three headed dragon theory, so it makes perfect sense that he abducted or run away with Lyanna and had a child with her. Because think of everything you said for a moment, that Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar to escape from his rapist brother and then rapist brother got angry and somehow ended up killing himself and then was started, the greatest dynasty in the Westeros was destroyed because Brandon Stark had sex with his sister. I'm sorry, Amber, none of it makes any sense to me.
LOL, well, you know how I like to roll all outside the box and shit. tee hee.In my mind, Jon is still important if the theory worked out, especially with the added part about the dragon riders all being inbred. He would be a part of the three heads of the dragon, just as in the Lyanna and Rhaegar theory, which is pretty much what makes him important in that theory. He would also be the true heir to Winterfell - which was pretty much his number one desire his entire life.
(Now that I'm thinking about it, that would mean Tyrion could probably ride dragons as well, since he is technically inbred also right?)
I also read that all will be revealed in good time. Which really makes me happy. I suppose Howland Reed will do the reveal, since I think he's the last man standing. Unless Benjen comes back, he might have the whole true story as well, I always assumed he knew something or did something that made him feel he should join the Night's Watch.
As for Brandon, at the very least, Selmy questions his morality already, and with the added of Lady Dustin it shows he wasn't a perfect sort. He's probably the most questionable of all the Stark's I've personally read, but I concede this could be because everything surrounding his character is extremely vague. But that's really the dilemma with all the theories on these characters.
Why would Brandon rape his sister? I don't know I can answer this question. Why do people rape anyone? It's hardly something that has to make sense. People commit sexual violence for lots of weird reasons. Though I have to say, if this theory proved true, I would kinda prefer he wasn't a rapist myself as well. Mostly since I hate rapists along with the rest of the non-raping world. LOL. I don't want to rule it out just yet though - since I'm not sure which I could support better.
Yes, Brandon intended to marry Cat, but there is still support that may not have been by his choice, even if it is from Lady Dustin. I consider her just as trust worthy as Barriston Selmy, whom spreads rumors that Brandon defiled Ashara Dayne and also tells people she gave birth to a still born daughter, when he has absolutely no way of actually knowing that.
I think that Cat and Brandon in love thing is subjective, you kinda get to decide on that front for yourself, so I doubt I could sway you. I never had the impression Brandon was in love with Cat, just that Cat was very much impressed and in love with Brandon. Sure he fought a duel for her, but he was a hot blooded young man who had just been challenged to a fight by Littlefinger...that could have just as easily been all ego.
Okay, I have to run and do something, but I will totally be back to discuss in a bit...damn it, I was enjoying this conversation too! GRR!
But who said dragon riders have to be inbred? Being a son of Rhaegar would make him much more than a dragon rider, he would be one of the contenders to the Iron Throne. As for Winterfell, he had a chance to be the lord of Winterfell but he refused it. And how can he be a lord of Winterfell while Bran, Rickon, Sansa and Arya is alive anyway? He would only be an inbred bastard which is much worse than being an ordinary bastard. I don't see who would make him lord of Winterfell while trueborn children of Ned Stark were still alive. and how would Howland Reed know if Jon was Brandon and Lyanna's son? I somehow don't think Ned would share this embarrassing secret with Howland Reed. Neither Lady Dustin nor Barristan Selmy ever said anything about Brandon to make him out to be some kind of pervert. So what if he deflowered Dustin and bedded Ashara Dayne? does it makes him a bad person?And just like lady Dustin was in love with Brandon, so did Selmy have feelings for Ashara Dayne. And I , for some reasons, never trust the words of people who are always bitter over some long lost love. Robert was also always saying how Rhaegar had raped Lyanna hundreds of times and so on, should I take his words seriously and dismiss what everyone ever said about Rhaegar?
I also don't know how the brains of rapist work and don't expect you to know. I asked that question because I'd want to know what Brandon had ever done to make you think that he is capable of raping his sister. I would expect this kind of thing from Ramsay Bolton, from Mountain and some other people from the series but nothing I have ever read about Brandon made me think he had a very questionable personality or he was a horrible person who would rape his own sister.
Admittedly, no one ever said Brandon was in love with Catelyn, but no one, except lady Dustin, claimed the opposite either. But as you said, we really know very little about Cat and Brandon relationship and Brandon's character in general. So before GRRM reveals more information about Brandon's past, I think everything we say about him are just pure speculations.
Alright, I have returned. *que music*Just kidding.
I'll just pick up where I left off since that seems easiest.
Lyanna's crying isn't necessarily the best evidence for the theory, I'll concede that. I'm just saying it's not necessarily the best evidence for R+L either, since we can't possibly know for what reason she was truly crying. Maybe she cried because he had such melancholy music - totally legit, but maybe she cried for other reasons - potentially that she was offended by her brother's interest in other woman, a far leap, sure, but still possible since these incidents happen at similar times. (Off topic, but I wish we could read some of these songs!)
Anyway, I'm not trying to negate Rhaegars talent, everyone almost unanimously agrees in the story that he was gifted. Just saying, crying can come from plenty of reasons. It's just as likely Benjen pinched her under the table really, since we have no close up POV of any of this.
I think you make a good point with the moon tea actually. This makes me think, if I wanted to make the theory work best, I'd have to support the side that she willingly had sex with Brandon and did so in hopes of becoming pregnant, because you make a great point, she was couragious and tough, why fear asking for Moon Tea, especially if she is a victim of rape.
However, I guess psychologically someone (I guess that will be me *sigh* LOL) could argue she didn't ask because she was ashamed of what happened and never wanted anyone to know. People sometimes get messed up emotionaly and psychologically from being raped, at least to the best of my understanding.
There is nothing that suggests she didn't tell her father she didn't want to marry Robert. I mean, she is making it known to her brother who is his best friend. Even if she did tell Rikard that she wasn't interested in marrying Robert Baratheon, why should he care? No one else seems to care who woman want to marry through out the story. He didn't seem to care that Ned wasn't really interested in Cat.
As for contradictions in Lyanna's character, R+L goes highly against what we've actually read of Lyanna's character as well. Sure she is wolf blooded and strong willed as anyone, but she expresses a clear discord with Robert Baratheon's promescuities before he is ever even betrothed or married. It has always been my major struggle with the L+R theory that Lyanna would literally destroy the marriage of Elia and Rhaegar or even condone Rhaegar's interest in her. She is pretty concise that she does not approve of sleeping with other people after marriage. It's her number 1 fear with Robert.
Interestingly, (to me LOL) Ned tells her not to worry about what happens before the marriage and that things will change afterward or whatever. I could maybe argue this discussion spurred her to fornicate with her brother if indeed she did love him and I decide to drop the rape angle. (still undecided on that...I should choose...it's rough argueing for both)
As far as reasoning on the elopement. I mean, I'm not into incest. But I don't see how it's any more honorable to elope with another man, have sex with him and bare his child than it is to do the exact same thing with your brother if indeed it was done out of love. I bit higher on the ick factor (for me) but not necessarily more dishonorable. I think however, you are probably right on the raping, probably not rapists. Hopefully not. I think this is convincing me to argue for the side of actual love. Lyanna may have run away because Brandon agreed to go through with the wedding to Cat although she found herself pregnant. (- meh, thats a bit rambly sorry - in thought here LOL) As for dishonorable liars...well, I think that's probably subjective too. Ned never lies for personal gain, I agree, but Arya does all the time once she leaves King's Landing, and that is the character compared most often to Lyanna. Arya runs a fine line on honor for sure.
Why would Rhaegar take it upon himself to rescue Lyanna? My only real conclusion here consists of a shit ton of If's I concede but here it goes - because he figured out the prophecy he was so long obsessed with, Three Heads of the Dragon.
With him being born of incest, the fairly recent birth of Tyrion (born of incest), and finally a third family having a child born of the same, I would assume he'd do everything in his power to protect something like that if he suspected the possibility it might be destroyed before it come to fruition.
Barriston Selmy does say Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, but as I said above, he is sorta a rumor mongerer. He thinks Brandon defiled Ashara Dayne, he thinks she had a still born daughter and tells people so - but he literally has no way of knowing either of these things. He hundreds if not thousands of miles away when Ashara gives birth, and he did not witness Brandon having sex with Ashara. He really isn't all that reliable a character at all. The same could be said for Cersei, she has no way of knowing if Lyanna and Rhaegar had an intimate relationship - she only assumes that because, well, she has sexual intimate relationships with...just about anyone.
Although I have to say, you've really helped me decide a side of this theory to support. That the sex would probably have to be consentual, though maybe Brandon didn't want to have a child with her.
Shannon wrote: "What if bran takes Jon snow's body....."Ooooooo!yowzah,
oh damn, that was long and now I have to reply to your other post!AHH Brain explosion.
I agree, it's all pure speculation when it comes to characters of the past.
I'll come back and reply in a bit after my fingers stop bleeding.
LOL
Ok and I will reply to your posts tomorrow, my head hurts so much right now :D
Okay, I think I'm rested enough (and I checked my other updates LOL - except I'm totally starving right now...god HUNGRY!!)Anyway - I'm the only one (well besides the person who came up with theory over on the other board we frequent, but lets just say me for convenience)who said dragons riders would be inbred. It's just a part of my partially insane theory I'm concotting here.
There is some support for the idea though. That's pretty much why Targaryen's praciticed incest from the beginning I think....
I should verify that though -
Even if Jon were Rhaegar's son, he'd hardly be a contender for the throne without legitmization, though same could potentially be said for his claim on Winterfell. He's still a bastard either way. There is no record the Rhaegar and Lyanna ever wed, and no living witnesses that we know of.
So really - both theories end up with the same result, Jon is a Dragon Rider. With potential if made legitimate. Sure he turned down Winterfell, but ONLY because he swore an oath until death, which he has potential, at this point in the story, of fulfilling, since he will likely die but be resurrected - thus freeing him of his oath right?
If he were Brandon's son and legitimized, he would then be the heir to Winterfell before even Ned, let alone Ned's children. Jon at this point, even if he were legitimized, still wouldn't be heir to the Iron throne, because we now have a living Aegon. (hard to prove if he is the actual Aegon or not, but GRRM so far hasn't shown that he isnt to my knowledge)
And you don't see who would legitimized an incestual bastard? Maybe - King Tommen? Queen Cersei? Danearys Targaryen? None of these people have problems with incest, and Tommen is not Joff, I doubt Cersei would without potential gain, but not impossible either.
I'll admit that Howland Reed may not have known the secret if this was indeed THE secret we are all so fond of (by which I mean, highly annoyed by LOL) but who knows who else Lyanna could have told, she did a bit of travelling and could have run across some people. Someone at Starfall might know as well, Tower of Joy is very close by. GRRM could write a whole new character for this even, he doesnt seem abject to constantly extending our cast.
Okay, thanks for clarifying your question on why rape Lyanna LOL - now I feel a bit dense, but whatever LOL. I think you really convinced me that at the very least, this theory doesn't have a good flow with Brandon being a rapist. I'm not sure what made me think that other than the bloody penis part. I don't know, that just weirded me out I suppose - probably some weird psychological bull shit of my own I don't have time to deal with LOL.
I think we can also agree Dustin and Selmy may not be the best people to be taking info from - they have the same injuries as Robert and probably expand on the pain by making things sound worse to others. But still, Rhaegar could care deeply for Lyanna without ever having sex with her.
It's hard to judge just how much Selmy would know about it, because it never says how close he and Rhaegar were or if they spent much time together. I always had the impression Rhaegar kept Arthur Dayne and the Whent guy with him.
Nermin wrote: "Ok and I will reply to your posts tomorrow, my head hurts so much right now :D"LOL - Deal, brake for today. I didn't see this post til I posted my last one since I was sorta typing it for like 20 minutes it seemed like LOL.
Damn. This thread is now longer than the ASOIAF series.
Amber wrote: "Another interesting facet that I'd like to add to this theory (someone else came up with it on another ASOIAF board when they read this theory, I thought it was a really good idea so I'm slappin it..."Nice! Thanks as ususak Amber you are a goddess!
Yeah I meant as usual ( damn I'm tired)
See, that's what I mean, this B+L=J theory, while serving no purpose at all in the story, do not have even one solid evidence to back it up. It all depends on 'If's. If this happened and then this happened, and then that happened, Jon would be son of Lyanna and Brandon Stark. As to why Jon would be so important to the story if he was L&B's son, you argue 1)he could have ridden the dragon because inbreds can ride dragons, which is actually never mentioned in the books or in GRRM interviews and which doesn't really make much sense either. 2) You say Jon Snow could be lord of Winterfell if he was somehow legitimized son of Brandon which he wasn't. Again, Jon Snow had a chance to be the Lord of Winterfell. GRRM doesn't have to come up with a load of nonsense just to instate Jon Snow as the Lord of Winterfell. And anyway why is important that Jon Snow should be Lord of Winterfell and how is that relevant and significant to the story in general? Brandon+Lyanna theory would change many things we know about the history of Westeros, Robert's Rebellion, Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna and pretty much everything, and for what?So that Jon Snow could be the lord of Winterfell. I mean, big deal. This theory is just a perfect way to ruin a perfect series and I can't help but think whoever first came up with it was pulling our legs.
However, I guess psychologically someone (I guess that will be me *sigh* LOL) could argue she didn't ask because she was ashamed of what happened and never wanted anyone to know. People sometimes get messed up emotionaly and psychologically from being raped, at least to the best of my understanding.Not Lyanna. Lyanna isn't described as someone who would let anyone rape her and get away with it.
There is nothing that suggests she didn't tell her father she didn't want to marry Robert. I mean, she is making it known to her brother who is his best friend. Even if she did tell Rikard that she wasn't interested in marrying Robert Baratheon, why should he care? No one else seems to care who woman want to marry through out the story. He didn't seem to care that Ned wasn't really interested in Cat.
There is nothing to even suggest that Lyanna didn't want to marry Robert. All we know is that, she complained to Ned about Robert's affairs. That's all. She never told Ned she didn't want to marry Robert. And it is very obvious that Ned loved his sister very much and I don't believe for one second that Ned would refuse to hear her if Lyanna insisted that she didn't want to marry.
Is for contradictions in Lyanna's character, R+L goes highly against what we've actually read of Lyanna's character as well. Sure she is wolf blooded and strong willed as anyone, but she expresses a clear discord with Robert Baratheon's promescuities before he is ever even betrothed or married. It has always been my major struggle with the L+R theory that Lyanna would literally destroy the marriage of Elia and Rhaegar or even condone Rhaegar's interest in her. She is pretty concise that she does not approve of sleeping with other people after marriage. It's her number 1 fear with Robert.
I don't agree. Lyanna isn't displeased because Robert is having sex with women before marriage, but that he does it while being betrothed to Lyanna and she doesn't believe that this fact will change once they are married, and when Ned says it will change she says a man's nature doesn't change. And I've never heard Lyanna say she is against sex before marriage, let alone being pretty concise about it. What Robert was doing with women has nothing whatsoever in common with Rhaegar and Lyanna's case. Neither Lyanna nor Rhaegar was described as promescious. Eloping with someone you love is not promescuity and it's not sleeping around. And Lyanna and Rhaegar might've been married, because we don't know much about what after Rhaegar 'abducted' Lyanna, we can't certainly say they were married, but we can't deny it either.
As far as reasoning on the elopement. I mean, I'm not into incest. But I don't see how it's any more honorable to elope with another man, have sex with him and bare his child than it is to do the exact same thing with your brother if indeed it was done out of love. I bit higher on the ick factor (for me) but not necessarily more dishonorable.
Frankly, I'm quite ok with incest. But while being engaged to another one, having an incestuous relationship with your brother who is about to marry another woman , is, to me, very dishonest and dishonorable act and can in no way be compared to with eloping and having sex with the man you love.
As for dishonorable liars...well, I think that's probably subjective too. Ned never lies for personal gain, I agree, but Arya does all the time once she leaves King's Landing, and that is the character compared most often to Lyanna. Arya runs a fine line on honor for sure.
But, for heaven's sake, Arya was trying to survive, her father is killed, her brother is in open rebellion to the throne, knights of kingsguard were looking for her everywhere, what could she do but lie? For all I care, Arya hasn't done anything dishonorable. And Arya wasn't likened to Lyanna because she 'runs a fine line on honor' but because they appearance and character is similar. both seem to be some kind of tomboy, learning to play sword and riding horses and so on. Arya isn't copycat of Lyanna.
Why would Rhaegar take it upon himself to rescue Lyanna? My only real conclusion here consists of a shit ton of If's I concede but here it goes - because he figured out the prophecy he was so long obsessed with, Three Heads of the Dragon.
With him being born of incest, the fairly recent birth of Tyrion (born of incest), and finally a third family having a child born of the same, I would assume he'd do everything in his power to protect something like that if he suspected the possibility it might be destroyed before it come to fruition.
It all comes to inbred thing again, for which again there's no evidence. And Rhaegar doesn't have to figure out any prophecy, he believes that the dragon has three heads and so he has to have three children, two of which he already had. You said somewhere above that Rhaegar didn't go to Trident to fight but to explain something to Robert. But Rhaegar actually wounded Robert before being killed by him. You don't wound and try to kill the man you have come to talk with.
Barriston Selmy does say Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, but as I said above, he is sorta a rumor mongerer. He thinks Brandon defiled Ashara Dayne, he thinks she had a still born daughter and tells people so - but he literally has no way of knowing either of these things. He hundreds if not thousands of miles away when Ashara gives birth, and he did not witness Brandon having sex with Ashara. He really isn't all that reliable a character at all. The same could be said for Cersei, she has no way of knowing if Lyanna and Rhaegar had an intimate relationship - she only assumes that because, well, she has sexual intimate relationships with...just about anyone.
Rhaegar's love to Lyanna is known to everyone in Westeros, it's not a rumor, it's an event which started a strong rebellion and resulted in the destruction of a great dynasty. and Barristan is not even the first or the last person to talk about Rhaegar&Lyanna. I don't even know why we are even arguing this, it's a well known fact. I didn't say Cercei knew Rhaegar had sex with Lyanna, I said Cercei thought that Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna. Loving someone and f..ing someone are two different things:D But anyway, doesn't it what two people do when they decide to elope? Don't they consummate their relationship? Because otherwise, why are you running away? Stay where you are and love each other from afar:))
And you don't see who would legitimized an incestual bastard? Maybe - King Tommen? Queen Cersei? Danearys Targaryen? None of these people have problems with incest, and Tommen is not Joff, I doubt Cersei would without potential gain, but not impossible.But no one knew Cercei's kids were all bastards! Robert always thought Joff, Tommen and Marcella were all his children. Do you think anyone would be ok with having a incestual bastard for a king? Hell, no.
Very inneresting theory re: Lyanna + Brandon = Jon. You would think with all this incest there would be a little more retardation going on, those lucky bastards!of course, there is Tyrion. He may not be mentally disabled but his physical differentness could be caused by incest. Tywin and Joanna were cousins after all, but who knows, but then again, Aerys + Joanna = Tyrion?
I hope so.
Alright Nermin! LOL. I'm still thinking on your reply because it was a really good one and you have made me see I do need to find more support. You made me want to reread these books and keep tabs for my theories actually. I think I may do that if I ever find the time. They are so long and I'll have to break away from my constant rereads of KKC! (NO!!!) I think what this theory really lacks, as you said, is textual back up. Which we do see at least a bit of with the Lyanna and Rhaegar theory, though I would argue, still, not much, since it is all second and third and fourth hand.
Too bad so many IF's have to go into these theories to round them out! But thanks for discussing this with me.
SORRY IT GOT SO LONG EVERYONE ELSE I HAVE A TENDANCY TO DO THAT!
If there weren't any 'ifs' then it wouldn't be a theory. Personally, I loved reading what your wrote, Amber, I find all the theories interesting and entertaining. Keep going.
Mother died in childbirth = Targaryan. Thoughts?
I'm not sure what you are trying to imply...
Dragon has 3 heads. Dany, Jon, and Tyrion?
Oh I think I see what you are saying.To ride a dragon you have to kill your mother in child birth.
That's an interesting idea. Any support for it?
I could go for Dany, Jon, and Tyrion, but for completely different reasons. I could go for any mixture of Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Cersei, Jaime, Tommen, Myrcella, Aegon, or Craster's Daughters.
LOL!
I watched an interview with Hodor (OK, the actor) and he said his favorite theory is that Hodor is a Clegane brother and when he was little, Gregor - in a similiar vain to when he burned Sandor's face - threw him out the window, which also explains his brain damage.
Spoilersi've had this theory for a while now and it's only been strengthened in time.
the theory is that Syrio Forel is still alive and a faceless man. it's never actually mentioned that he dies as Arya leves before it happens. this theory goes on saying that he is Syrio Forel then later, the scabby faceless man who meets Arya at the end.
i'm not sure if it happens in the book but in series one when he is teaching Arya to fight he sais that there is only one god, and that god is death (a theory only thought by the faceless priests)
i'm not sure just putting it out there (no reaserch or anyting) but is it possible that Lyanna could have gotten pregnant with R's baby during the tournament. (again didn't check book and dates may be completely off) also he Ned could be protecting Jon by not telling anyone.
Both are pretty popular theories and niether can be disproven from what I've read.However, no, Lyanna could not have been impregnated with Jon at the Tourney of Harrenhal.
We do know, however, that Ashara Dayne was likely impregnated there.
Anywho -
That doesn't mean Rheagar couldn't be Jon's father though as he abducts Lyanna during the time frame Jon's mother would have been pregnant with him.
If Lyanna is Jon's mother, it's most probable that Rheagar is the father. (as much as I hate to admit that! LOL) No matter what, Jon was not concieved at Harrenhal.
Interestingly however, Gendry could have been.
I'm sure that there's a ton more to Hodor than we know -- and yes, we know (think?) that he used to be a Targaryen -- but I am sure there's some big story device hidden behind that character.
It'd be nice to get a perspective chapter from Hodor that wasn't just "Hodor Hodor Hodor Hodor Hodor"
It'd be nice to get a perspective chapter from Hodor that wasn't just "Hodor Hodor Hodor Hodor Hodor"
Maybe Hodor, is just Hodor? the protection for the Stark children!
I don't know.
Eyehavenofilter wrote: "Maybe Hodor, is just Hodor? the protection for the Stark children!
I don't know."
Hodor!
Josiah wrote: "[...] and yes, we know (think?) that he used to be a Targaryen [...]"Just curious: why do we know or think that?
I second Jon, what makes you say that we know (think) Hodor used to be a Targaryen. It's actually the first time I hear this theory(?).
If you run a quick google search there's something about Old Nan mentioning it in one of the books
Do you mind providing the source please? What does she mention?I know the books and theories pretty well and I don't remember that.
I can't find the exact link, but this is a thread I've read before surrounding Hodor, and it does ask about Old Nan and bran etc. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/...
I honestly don't know what's OP's talking about, as a non native English speaker I don't really think Hodor sounds like Other. And nowhere in the books Old Nan says that Hodor is somehow related to Targaryens.
Hmm. I'll keep looking for the actual link I saw it in.
Yea I'm familiar with those threads but there's nothing in any of the books alluding to Hodor having Targaryen blood.
Though I do like the 'Hold the door!' theory :)
Jon wrote: "I watched an interview with Hodor (OK, the actor) and he said his favorite theory is that Hodor is a Clegane brother and when he was little, Gregor - in a similiar vain to when he burned Sandor's f..."awww...thats so sad and so plausible and it makes me hate that psycho even more!
Davide wrote: "Spoilersi've had this theory for a while now and it's only been strengthened in time.
the theory is that Syrio Forel is still alive and a faceless man. it's never actually mentioned that he dies ..."
btw in my new mag...Miltos Yerolemou says" Its fantasy Anything can happen. I think you want to believe that Syrio sacrificed himself for a girl he barely knew, but took a shine to... But George wrote that episode himself and he didn't come up with an answer one way or another."
so there you have it.. Or don't...we don't know!
A better theory is Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar and was not abducted. The great promise by Ned is to never admit Jon is a Targaryen for fear of Roberts wrath and I personally believe he is the true Aegon (his is the song of ice and fire). Also, I always assumed Hodor was descended from Dunk the Lunk.
At one point, Old Nan said that Hodor's real name was Walder. This might imply that he's a Frey, but that's just assumption. It could be a misdirection too.
Who isn't part Frey these days?After all, Frey is the Norse god of fertility :)
There's even a character named Rhaegar Frey :| poor, poor Rhaegar...
GET OUT!thats just sad, is George just running out of names?
You mean poor Aegon Frey? Wonder if we will see him on Sunday. Probably not
It's from westeros.org though, its in the So Spake Martin section.
I'm glad you are here actually Nermin, you are perfect person to debate this with since I know you are Rhaegars number 1 fan LOL!
Now for rebuttal! (My favorite part!) Why would Lyanna be pregnant with Brandon's child?
Maybe she cares for Brandon, maybe Brandon raped her. I'm not sure which possibility I'm on the side for supporting. The Ryswell lady in Dance though talks about how Brandon liked to see the blood from taking womans maidenhead though (doesnt she, or did I read that in another book?) I feel torn on the subject though, because I'm not sure which I could support better just yet. It's a baby theory really, but those are my possibilities so far.
If Brandon raped her, for one, we know that people in the North like the Boltons (who were associates of the people Brandon was fostered out too) were practictioners of the Lord's Right, so the possibility there is Brandon thought he would take his Lord's Right on his own sister.
If they cared for eachother, with the promise of both of them to be married soon, it's possible they felt it was there last chances to really take that relationship to another level and express there emotions for eachother.
I'd make the assumption they weren't regular sexual partners until after the tourney at Harrenhal, where Lyanna may have become jealous. It know it says in the novels that she cries during a sad song sung by Rheagar, but concurrently happening in this scene Brandon is romancing another woman, whom almost everyone in the story believe he ended up sleeping with.
If there relationship became sexual after this incident, it's possible she did not drink moon tea.
However, it's just as possible she never drank moon tea because she couldn't make it herself and was afraid to ask her Maester for fear he'd reveal her secret sexual escapades. Isn't this the same reason Cersei doesn't drink it?
With the idea that Lyanna has no desire to marry Robert, it's even possible she intended to get pregnant to avoid being forced into an arrainged marriage with him. If she became pregnant, and was in love with her brother, she could have the child, tell no one who the father was, and thus, probably never have to marry anyone (due to her inpurity) and become a ward of the brother she was in love with after her fathers death, keeping them permanently together without creating an entirely questionable situation.
It's likely Lyanna's maidenhead was already broken through horse riding, though she would still qualify as a virgin because no actual intercourse ever occured, making this discrepency easy to hide if indeed she did marry Robert. My premise though would be she is trying to avoid such a thing. Even in the R+L theory, she doesn't want to marry Robert and both theories are based on her inherent desire to avoid this conclusion.
I agree the Starks are generally the most honorable, but we see through Ned's POV that they aren't necessarily honest. He keeps a secret almost his entire life. Lyanna runs away in most theories instead of following through on her betrothal. Ned even fudges Robert's final words so one day Joff can be unseated possibly. They are more honest and honorable than most characters in the story, but they are certainly not perfect.
I think there is also the possibility she didn't elope with Rhaegar at all. It's possible Rhaegar felt he was taking Lyanna to save her from Brandon if he was a rapist. In this case, Brandon may have wanted the child Lyanna carried aborted something I don't imagine Rheagar would approve of, especially since he is a character who longs for another child.
If Brandon actually cared for her, it's possible Rhaegar took her for other purposes completely outside of sex. We know he had some intention of possibly arranging a form of coup de etat on his father's throne, which is the whole reason Aerys goes to the Tourney at Harrenhall. It's possible his abduction of Lyanna was an arranged part of this secret plan that got blown way out of porportion or ran awry when Brandon got so angry or Aerys chose fire as his champion. Without major players like Rikard to cool the flames in place anymore things got ugly. It's even possible Robert only beat Rhaegar in battle because the man showed up to explain himself and didn't fight whole heartedly.