Valar Morghulis--Valar Dohaeris discussion
A Song of Ice and Fire
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Theories & Speculations: SPOILERS for all books
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Jacob
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Mar 07, 2014 03:17PM
Do we know all of Robert's bastards? Cersei's witch said he'd have 16 kids, right? I'm not sure how many were killed, plus Gendry and the one Stannis had. Well any more of them come into play?
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Mya Stone in the Vale, and Gendry meets another who is also a working girl. I can't remember her name though, its a really short scene.I believe it's right before he saves Brienne, but I'm not positive.
So that is 4 living bastards. We know Cersei has the one little baby killed that is born really early in GOT. Not sure how many others were in Kings Landing.
just finished Dance with Dragons and this is my first post. how important do you all think the fight for the Wall will be? it seems to me that it is totally underestimated by everyone but Jon. I just think all this fighting for the crown is laughable given that westeros could be overrun by The Others.
it will be very important. IT is the main conflict of the series but in another subversion of the trope George has decided to keep it in the background. Which it's cool IMO.
It reminds me of when the Spanish showed up in Mexico. If it had been a generation earlier, the Spanish would have been killed the moment they set foot on land. But a generation of civil war left the Aztecs state weak with enemies within. The Spanish found willing allies more than happy to fight the Aztec elite. If GRRM was a younger man I could picture the Others winning the war & future books dealing with the survival, regroup and restore of the race of men. Oh well, fanfic perhaps.
When Robb was leaving Winterfell, I think it was Osha who said to Bran: "Your brother is riding in the wrong direction to fight a wrong war" or something along those lines.
First post here so be kind please! :)To go back to the Jon parentage thing, I've always thought the fact that GRRM says something like (paraphrasing here) 'Jon looked more like his father than any of his legitimate sons' kind of pointed towards incest...
I'm also not sure how important the fight for the wall will be, I have a feeling a lot of the things that live beyond the wall wouldn't do so well south of it!
Hello Sam, but the incest notion is off base. There are three possibility for Jon's parentage, two suggested in the book, namely Ned with Ashara Daye, Wylla or the fisherman's daughter; or the internet theory culled some interesting passages from all five books, that Lyanna Stark had run off/kidnapped with/by Rhaegar and died in childbirth. You will see the R+L=JS formula for this theory. There is only one person left that knows the truth of things, Howland Reed. Hopefully Howland will appear in the next book. Finally the battle between the Others and Mankind is the main battle ( Fire & ice) which will take up all of the last book.
Howland Reed will probably die a gruesome death just before he has the chance to reveal...
Yes GRRM has mention the option of never revealing the truth. perhaps put off by all the moral certainty from the R+L=JS displayed on the internet.
I just think it would be a bit too obvious. Personally I hope his mother is just a nobody!And with the fire and ice thing, that could be symbolism for absolutely anything, not necessarily actual fire vs ice.
With Bran essentially traveling through time, Reed dying wouldn't prevent anyone from learning the truth. If Ned confessed/spoke about it near a tree, Bran could see and hear it.
Or we could get the truth of the Rhaegar/Lyanna relationship? Still, I have a bet that Howland Reed helped Osha/Rickon & Shaggydog on their journey to safety.
I don't know if someone mention this already, sorry if I'm repeating, but David Benioff and D.B. Weiss (creators of the TV show for those who don't know) said in an interview or somewhere that when they went to GRRM to present their project, he asked them one question: "Who do you think Jon Snow's mother is?".They didn't said what their answer was, only that GRRM stayed silent for a moment, then smiled and then they began talking about adapting the story for the show.
So, if this story if true, the identity of Jon's mother seems to be something of importance. Which, in my opinion, points to Lyanna Stark, since is the only theory in which all this has any importance in the story because of the Targaryen lineage.
Or maybe we're all wrong and GRRM will surprise us with something nobody expects.
If you guys don´t know about this blog yet, check it out: http://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/It has some excellent analysis for many characters, Jon and Dany especially. I really can´t recommend it enough. Spoilers for all books, naturally.
Sam wrote: "First post here so be kind please! :)To go back to the Jon parentage thing, I've always thought the fact that GRRM says something like (paraphrasing here) 'Jon looked more like his father than an..."
I am split 50/50 on the same things you are, as far as theories on Jon's parentage. The incest theory is one I have found the most convincing (flog me if you will). The R + L theory just doesn't fit the story on a whole to me. And I think it's too predictable, which doesn't seem to fit GRRM's storytelling.
On the other hand, I hope it's never revealed or it's just some nobody. So much unnecessary weight has been put on this one plot that I think GRRM will just keep the secret to himself. And I would actually be happy with that.
Jessica wrote: "Sam wrote: "First post here so be kind please! :)To go back to the Jon parentage thing, I've always thought the fact that GRRM says something like (paraphrasing here) 'Jon looked more like his fa..."
Since all the trustworthy characters who could either confirm or deny the identity of Jon's mother are dead, I'm inclined to think it will never be revealed. Plus, who knows i what form Jon will even return to the story after book five...
Vanna wrote: "Jessica wrote: "Sam wrote: "First post here so be kind please! :)To go back to the Jon parentage thing, I've always thought the fact that GRRM says something like (paraphrasing here) 'Jon looked ..."
Howland Reed is still alive. Also, Bran could see something through the trees. I think Jon's parentage is too important to not be revealed.
How Game of Thrones Will End has hit stores. This series of silly answers is on sale at http://www.amazon.com/How-Game-Throne... by award-winning parody author Valerie Estelle Frankel. Perfect for book or show fans. It offers many different possible endings to the show, based in War of the Roses, Lord of the Rings, and Martin's many other influences.
Leandro wrote: "Vanna wrote: "Jessica wrote: "Sam wrote: "First post here so be kind please! :)To go back to the Jon parentage thing, I've always thought the fact that GRRM says something like (paraphrasing here..."
I don't know if it's that important....I mean he's Night's Watch now, and he clearly means to stay in it (given his Stark need to do everything by the rules). So I kind of think the revelation about his mother would be more informational than anything else. Though I do really want to know :)
Have read through this entire feed over the last couple days. You guys are awesome. I Started reading these books last year and have read and reread them 2-3 times. All the theories are great!! I agree with some disagree with others but love it all. Here is my problem I am literally sick of waiting for WOW and I have read all the sample chapters. I need more!! its making me crazy. Here is a question for Amber who seems to be the most knowledgeable in this stuff. What do I read while I wait? Something similar that will hold me over till we finally get WOW?
Josh wrote: "Have read through this entire feed over the last couple days. You guys are awesome. I Started reading these books last year and have read and reread them 2-3 times. All the theories are great!! I a..."Read Malazan Book of the Fallen, 10 book series, already finished. plenty of material for you to read until WOW comes out.
yes , gardens is bk one. keep at it, it is a dense but great read. Lots of characters.
Josh wrote: "book 1 gardens of the moon?"Yes :) enjoy
Hey. I wanted to share this, as I've found some theories that I didn't know.http://whatculture.com/tv/game-throne...
Try to ignore the mistakes, since there are many (and also names wrongly spelled). Despite all that, there are some interesting theories that I'm sure I'm not the only one that didn't know.
Specially the "Daenerys was raised in Dorne" one. Actually, I think that's the only interesting one that I didn't know. The rest are well known or pretty dumb. But still, it's an interesting article.
Hi all. I'm new to the group. Just curious, has anyone considered that Cold Hands may be Brandon the Builder?
I think that the emphasis on hands has to be important, I mean there are so many with injured hands. I saw a theory in another GR forum that maybe there will be a hand of R'hllor made up of 5 people with hand injuries. This would certainly make sense because of the high ranking priests for R'hllor being referred to as "the Fiery Hands". But as I've said there are dozens of possible candidates for this theory, so I feel it needs a bit of refining.I'd say the hand injury has to be a burn of some sort, which limits it currently to just 3 (presumably with another 2 in WoW):
Victarion Greyjoy
Jon Snow
Sandor Clegane
Notably, all 3 of these are in very different regions (near Slavers Bay, The Wall, The quiet isles). My thinking is that the hand will be completed by someone in the free cities (probably Arya) and one in Dorne, I'm thinking Samwell, thus covering the whole of Westeros and Essos. The 5 of them will then unite somehow ready to face the Others in DoS. I also believe that the five of them together are Lightbringer. If I'm correct about their identities then it would fit so well - Jon = Old, Victarion = Sea, Clegane = the 7, Arya = the multitude of eastern gods, Samwell = science, all working together to ward off darkness!
Obviously Jon's appearance in the hand of R'hllor rules him out of being one of the three Dragonriders, who I think will all be descended from the Targaryens. You'd expect this to point towards Dany, Aegon and Tyrion, especially as they're all converging in Slavers Bay, but I don't think Aegon is a true targaryen. I think he might be a Blackfyre. Which leaves the third spot open, in my opinion, for Gendry. It just doesn't make sense for GRRM to flesh a character out so much if he is unimportant to the storyline.
Pied wrote: "Treason For Gold: This is where it gets speculative. I have a hard time choosing whether I support the idea that this is Jorah.
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I didn't remember the wording of this but if it's ..."
Yes, he was originally going to get a pardon for his crimes. I think Dany considers this a form of payment, and therefore "gold". However, I believe that Jorah might have had a treason for love, being that he loved Westeros. Perhaps the treason for gold is Daario, or Brown Ben Plumm. It could even be Tyrion, as he has a habit of promising people gold that he needs to repay
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I didn't remember the wording of this but if it's ..."
Yes, he was originally going to get a pardon for his crimes. I think Dany considers this a form of payment, and therefore "gold". However, I believe that Jorah might have had a treason for love, being that he loved Westeros. Perhaps the treason for gold is Daario, or Brown Ben Plumm. It could even be Tyrion, as he has a habit of promising people gold that he needs to repay
This is an amazing thread, and its taken me ages to read through it... I've been through the 5 books three times each , and they reveal new info every time. I find little bits and pieces I seem to have missed the last time I each book. I'm really looking forward to both the next episode of season 5 and the next book. Although they are totally different animals, and might have taken different paths at one pint or another, they have the same creator, and will continue to surprise all of us
Sorry... Too bad I didn't spell or grammar check but I'm sure you all got my intention!
Heres spoiler to end all spoilers of A Song of Ice and Fire series:1. Everyone will suffer and die at the hands of the Others and Wights.
2. Bran will be able to control his ability to travel through time [like when he traveled, talked and was heard by his father Ned]. He will prefect this ability and despite warnings from the Three-Eyed-Crow, he will devulge the future to someone and will drastically change the outcome of the the world of Ice and Fire, including prevent the beheading of his father.
Jackie wrote: "Chris, I think your theory on Varys is spot on. It was something I thought about last night when I finished because he certainly has a vested interest in Danys & Aegon with no explanation other tha..."Okay so all this about Varys seems plausible but then why would he have stood by as Ned Stark was killed and war unleashed if he was so concerned about the fate of the realm? Didn't seem like he did much to prevent that. Correct me as I have a fallible memory.
What better way to introduce Dany as savior of the realm than to have her show up to rescue it from a civil war turmoil?
I've just caught up again, and I fookin love this thread!.... I've exhausted all the theories I could come up with, and you all just kept coming up with so many more that made my brain explode! I'm now thinking about sweet Shireen and hoping that pyromaniac Melissadre doesn't get her hands on her, and throw her in the nearest fire pit!
I have a feeling she will be very important at some point.
SPOILERWell, first of all, I don't think R+L=J. Yes, it makes sense. I would love it. But every single fan wants this. And since when GRRM does anything a fan expects? He does the complete opposite! (what if J doesn't even come back from the dead? oO)
And I have another theory regarding jon. I think he is Azor Ashai. First because he is the one leading the fight the others. Second, when Melissandre asks for visions of Azor Ashai hoping to see Stannis, all she gets is jon snow. Does anyone think it makes sense?
Thaís wrote: "SPOILERWell, first of all, I don't think R+L=J. Yes, it makes sense. I would love it. But every single fan wants this. And since when GRRM does anything a fan expects? He does the complete opposit..."
Ok, about the first part... that's my fear, that GRRM ends up doing something different just because everyone believes in R+L=J. But I still hope it ends up being true because the alternative (Jon's mother being some girl Ned met during the war) is simply lame and boring.
But the same can be said about that other theory. Maybe it's not as popular as R+L=J, but Jon being Azor Ahai is probably the second most popular theory out there. Or close, at least.
I actually think the prophecy is about both Jon and Daenerys somehow. I think they're the ice and fire this song is about.
Remy wrote: "I actually think the prophecy is about both Jon and Daenerys somehow. I think they're the ice and fire this song is about. ."I LOVED this. I just have no idea how this connection would happen in practical terms (even if our first theory of the thing they have in common is true).
Thaís wrote: "Remy wrote: "I actually think the prophecy is about both Jon and Daenerys somehow. I think they're the ice and fire this song is about. ."I LOVED this. I just have no idea how this connection wou..."
I guess we'll have to see, but since Daenerys has already put aside her conquest plans to fight slavery, it would make sense for her to realize that the priority in Westeros -if she ever arrives there- is not really deciding who sits on the Iron Throne but to actually make true the title "Protector of the Realm" and make sure there is a realm to protect once the Others become a more tangible threat.
Thaís wrote: "SPOILERWell, first of all, I don't think R+L=J. Yes, it makes sense. I would love it. But every single fan wants this. And since when GRRM does anything a fan expects? He does the complete opposit..."
yes, I do think that what you say completely makes sense.
Who do you guys think wrote the Pink Letter to Jon?
Here is a question I've had for a while. If and when Dany returns to westeros how will she get the dragons across the sea? Seems like its too far to fly straight across. Maybe it's not or maybe they will stop and rest on the step stones. Also how will she coordinate transport of her other troops so they can meet up with the dragons.
I am currently reading "The Grand Northern Conspiracy" on Tumblr (seriously, "grand" is a bit of an understatement but I love the detailed explanations). Geeking out.
@Scott: Dragons can travel a long way (didnt a Valyrian woman fly all the way to Sothoryos a long time ago?). Dorne/Stepstones is not that far either. @Maureen: Yeah it was too grand actually but still a good read. How about the Southron ambition theory?
Maureen wrote: "I am currently reading "The Grand Northern Conspiracy" on Tumblr (seriously, "grand" is a bit of an understatement but I love the detailed explanations). Geeking out."What is that? Share a link or something, I'm too lazy to search it on my own XD
Silvana wrote: "@Scott: Dragons can travel a long way (didnt a Valyrian woman fly all the way to Sothoryos a long time ago?). Dorne/Stepstones is not that far either. @Maureen: Yeah it was too grand actually but..."
Never heard of it... But I will google it now! :)
Remy wrote: "Maureen wrote: "I am currently reading "The Grand Northern Conspiracy" on Tumblr (seriously, "grand" is a bit of an understatement but I love the detailed explanations). Geeking out."What is th..."
I think this will get you there... http://asoiafuniversity.tumblr.com/po...
Lots of reading. It is far fetched but still totally cool someone took the time to research all the "clues" and connections. I think we would've gotten more hardcore evidence from GRRM if it is real. He likes leaving bread crumbs and the ones this person is using are pretty small... Although well researched and documented!
I guess it's fantasy but I was thinking something large like a dragon would need to stop and rest and could fly thousands of miles over the narrow sea without stopping. Also how can you coordinate the dragons with the ships.
Damn, what timing. WIC just did an article on it (Grand Northern Conspiracy) over the weekend: http://winteriscoming.net/2015/07/04/...Haven't read yet just happened to see it while surfing!
The pic of Robb at the start of the article just BREAKS MY HEART. Lol. Haven't seen that image in a while.
I think we all agree that R+L=J. The only question is how it'll be revealed. I personally think it'll be via Bran flashback
