Valar Morghulis--Valar Dohaeris discussion
A Song of Ice and Fire
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Theories & Speculations: SPOILERS for all books
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Gordon
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Oct 07, 2013 04:46PM
anyone know where that last Valaryn steel blade made from Ice is? who wields it? & if it has a name?
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Oathkeeper - Jaime LannisterWidows Wail - Went to Joff, then Tommen, I believe Tommen gave it to Loras who still has it.
I don't see how Jaime affected Tywin decision to not kill Tyrion. Tywin took that decision at the moment he was born. Not after, when Jaime and Cersei saw and knew it and Tyrion was already growing up with them. He could have just said that he die while giving birth and Jaime would have never know his brother. As simple as that. I don't know. I'd like to think that Tywin was not that shallow.
And I don't think that Tyrion not being Tywin son by blood undermines their relationship at all. Why would it? Tywin is still Tyrion's father no matter what. As I said before, your true father is the one who raises you. The one from who you learn. This is a lesson that Theon, for example, learned too late.
Widow's Wail belongs to Tommen now. The Tyrell don't have any Valyrian Sword
And for the other points. Well, I actually believe that Sansa won't need anybody to save her at the end. No Jaime, no anyone. She will save herself. Showing how she has grown and learn from all her experiences.
That goes for Jaime as well. I think the time when he was in love with Cersei, and he was willing to anything for her, is now in the past. The burning of the letter at the end of AFFC is the sign of it.
Character development.
I agree Tywin made the decision when he was born, that's why I said, "during his childhood" even though I do find Tywin horribly shallow, I can see how that is subjective to how you read it. However, If he considered killing him when he was born, I think he probably considered it again multiple times throughout his life. This seems to be proven through Tywin's forcing him to endure battles where his chances of dying are extremely high.Tyrion not being Tywin's son by blood undermines their relationship because then Tywin is right.
The point of their relationship is that Tywin is a dick to Tyrion all the time, when he doesn't deserve it on any front and is his true blooded son with a near replica of a mind. If he weren't his blood son, then honestly, Tywin wouldn't be in the wrong for the majority of the shit he did to Tyrion. Tyrion would be lucky he got what he did because he's a bastard. He'd be no better than Ramsay or Jon. He wouldn't be heir to Casterly Rock, he wouldn't deserve anything from any Lannister because what he got would be more than sufficient for his actual status. It wouldn't make any sense why he had to pay Tysha a gold coin, it wouldn't be as meaningful that his father stole his whore, his killing Tywin would even seem a bit ungrateful if he turned out to be a bastard from Joanna's unfaithfulness. It just wouldn't create any sympathy for Tyrion, when GRRM has already worked to generate so much.
Widows Wail does belong to Tommen, but Tommen gives an ornate sword to Loras before he leaves to Dragonstone. I don't think he releases ownership. I assumed this was Widows Wail by the process of deduction. It's Tommen's only sword and it's described as being ornate as well, seemed to me he meant it to be a lucky gift or something. He doesn't use it, it's not mentioned again after Loras leaves.
So while the Tyrell's don't own a valyrian sword, they may well have one on loan, which is why I said "I believe" and didn't say for certain. I think the citation can be found in the latter chapters of FFC if you really want to look.
Wow I really totally disagree in how you view the whole Tyrion thing. Like totally opposite. I still maintain the "Your father is the one who raises you" as Theon learns, and "Your actions define you." and in that case Tyrion deserves everything. Yeah, every point you made I feel the opposite xDYes, I remember the ornate sword we'll get proper confirmation when Loras comes back. I think nobody believes he's truly dying right?
I'm amazed everyday at how subjective the text really is. Funny how we see it so differently.Thanks for being civil about it Nelson, I actually really appreciate that about you, some people get really crazy when you mention you have a different view point.
I find your views of Tywin really quite interesting, definitely going to take some time to reevaluate when I'm giving these another reread. I like seeing how everyone views these characters and it does help me to comprehend better the more I take into consideration the views of others.
I think maybe our different views might even boil down to how we think of things outside of the story, which is a great aspect of these books, makes you think about your personal ideas a bit. At least it does me. LOL!!
I agree, I hope we get some confirmation on the sword. I don't personally believe that Loras is dying. I almost suspect it's a Tyrell Ploy just to get Cersei comfortable, but I have no back up for that. :D
Rains of Castamere on you Amber!!! xD Yeah, it would be so boring if we all though the same D: This forums would not exit at all, Period.
I though it was just like the Davos execution thing. But as there's no point of view in Dragonstone at the moment we just have to wait :(
Don't know if mentioned here already, but how about Benjen Stark being Coldhands? I'd go with that, actually. Or even if he is not Coldhands, Benjen could have become one of his kind. Like a humanized Other.
Nice Francisco, I like the way u think :) I brought up the same but I am in the minority in thinking cold hands is Benjen although many do believe he is a Stark...
Definitely a Stark in my books.I only don't think it's Ben because one of the COTF says that Coldhands died "ages ago"
Which Ben couldn't have done because if he did die, it only would have been a couple years prior at the most.
One thing that popped up while we were discussing that though I really liked was the maybe Benjen left on his own because he started to have uncontrollable warging. Magic is reborn after Ned's death and their is no real reason, in my mind, Ben couldn't be a warg whose powers remained dormant until magic grew strong again. It was, at the least, a pretty interesting idea.
SOTF* :PAnd thanks Gordon. I also believe that he might at least be a Stark :) I wouldn't say no to that warging theory either, Amber. One thing I'm almost sure about is that GRRM will tell us what was Ben's faith and it has every odd to be awesome!
A mood struck me today and I am currently rereading GoT, I am only at Jon's first chapter at the feast though. I have *only* read the series once and I think it is awesome how much better I get what is going on from the beginning. Especially in Dany's first chapter, I appreciate everything that is mentioned a lot more and it isn't just random names of people and places I can't place. I think the series is really made to be reread. What all of you guys have probably realised the first time you read it but what really struck me is that the direwolfe who gives birth to the five pups is actually killed because of antlers. That foreshadows Ned's death because of Robert who names him hand of the king. And maybe that's why Ned never showed any signs of warging (this was discussed briefly in this thread, wasn't it?), because his animal, his warg was dead from the beginning.
I am convinced that the Starks are somehow connected with the children of the forest and I really hope that Benjen, with his warging abilities (which I think is an awesome idea!), found them. And that WoW will tell us all about that.
In the scene where Robert and Eddard talk in the crypts and Ned thinks about Lyanna's death, he mentions Howland Reed being present (or that's what I got). I am actually really curious to know more about him.
Edit: And to come back to the Tyrion not being Tywin's son discussion. In Jon's first chapter in GoT he says: "All dwarfs are bastards in their fathers eyes" which I think describes their relationship perfectly. If Tyrion wasn't Tywin's son the whole dynamics would change. Anyway, we have had this discussion but I think this quote is so perfect. Oh and Nelson, I see your point of view too, I just think that Theon who didn't realise that your father is the one who raises you is a different case. especially because with Tywin/Tyrion/Jaime there is so much possibility to show that you can not chose who your son is and who not and to show Tywin that Tyrion who resembles Tywin so much in his behaviour and in his way of thinking is so ugly which does not fit in the picture the Lannisters want to portray of themselves. Even though on the inside, Tyrion is the Lannister par excellence. After writing this I actually understand your point of view a lot more and I actually don't think it's that unlikely anymore. But then again, Tywin's children might all just be Tywin's children.
That direwolf symbolism is cool, I never realized that before. Actually the whole comment is awesome, great ideas.Could possibly anyone help me to hide a part of my comment (a possible spoiler)? Or perhaps just write here a link to a guide or something, I'm sure it's explained somewhere here on the website but I just can't find it.
To hide a spoiler you type < spoiler > without the spaces between the brackets and the word spoiler at the beginning of the part you want to hide and < / spoiler > at the end, again without the spaces.
Actually, you don't need to hide spoilers in this thread. Any thread that has SPOILERS listed in the title can have un-hidden spoilers in it. The thread title will always indicate whether spoilers need to be hidden or un-hidden (it will say "*marked* spoilers" if spoilers need to be hidden).
Thanks Laura, it'll come in handy. The thing is I'd like to discuss something Martin said about the books to come, so I thought I'd better hide it, I mean people who read this probably expect spoilers about the first five books. I'm just super-cautious. Nonetheless, I've been thinking about it and I decided it's not such a big deal, it's something we probably all expect anyway :), so I simply write right now that a possible SPOILER follows.
Martin said that there will be a couple of people sitting on the Iron Throne before the end, so I'd like to ask you guys, which characters you'd like to see there?
I'll go for Stannis. It might be interesting to watch him struggle to put Westeros back together. I also wonder what he might do if he were the king and Dany came back to claim the throne. He obviously believes he's the saviour of Westeros, still, Dany's claim is better and he seems to be very strict about this issue.
I can't help myself, but I'd just love to see Littlefinger on the throne (temporarily I mean :) ). I'm extremely curious what he'd do.
The Tyrell family will surely seize the Throne by the end of the next book. the complot to do it has been going on for too long now. Maybe Aegon? and then another Dance with Dragons. He against Dany. Who knows.
I've read many of the previous comments, and I thought it was interesting that someone stated that magic is reborn after Ned's death. I've always thought that the Others came back and all other mythical creatures and magical powers slowly started coming back to balance the scale between good vs. evil. Someone also mentions the symbolism of the dead dire wolf. I agree, but I also believe the pups were left to protect the Stark children to balance the scale.
Maybe I don’t misunderstand. What are your thoughts?
By the way, anyone know the difference between the Others and the Whitewalker?
I don't how is has to do with Ned's death.The Others never left they were "defeated" a long time ago, but they were always lurking in the dark. Now, with the return of the Dragons is that magic as a whole is coming back. Both forces are active now.
That's foreshadowing. The dead Direwolf (Ned) leaving a new generation (his children) to take on the challenges of the era. It's made more direct in the show, where a Stag (also dead) was the reason for the Direwolf dying. Thus Robert being the reason for Ned's death, when he goes north to make him his Hand.
The Others and the Whitewalkers are the same thing.
Thanks for the information you shared Nelson. Concerning the Others, yes, they were defeated and driven back to the far north. This means they left (at least to me). After many years, the Others started killing wilding and members of the night watch north of the wall. This means they came or are coming back.
It seems to me as long as the Others were far off in the lands beyond, man had not seen direwolfs in years, less people had visions or dreams, warging wasn’t happening and the priest had limited or no powers. The common man believed many of these things never existed. I also think that the dragons are back because the Others are back.
How did you draw this conclusion that magic as a whole is coming back due to the dragons? I'd like to look it up. I enjoy reading new theories even if they are only new to me.
More than "left" I think the right is that they were relegated to "The Lands of Always Winter" far, far in the north. they have always been lurking around, that's why people like Benjen, Maester Aemon, Lord Commander Mormont know that there's more North of the wall than just Wildlings. The problem comes when the people of South of the Wall, forget about The Other. Mainly thanks to the apparition of the faith of the Seven, which replaced "The Old Gods" for many people in the South. For example Weirwoods existed once throughout all Westeros. After the Seven came, many of them were cut down, and with the pass of time The Old Gods were relegated to The North. The old events transformed into legend and then into myth for everyone South of the wall. Which is not surprising, The Long Night happened thousands of years before Aegon conquest, etc.
Direwolfs are not such a weird sight as The Others, People know they exist and everything, but they never go to the south. The fact that Ned and company find that Direwolf that far from the Wall it means that something bad is happening there. Like in the real world, when animals start to migrate without explanation from their homes, is because bad shit is going to happen.
Actually Warging was happening. And it was well known among the Wildlings. They have people who could do it even before Dany's Dragons were born. So as you can see Magic never stopped to exist but it was almost dormant for a long time. Some people could do stuff but nothing powerful.
Now, after Dany Dragons came to world. Magic as been coming back in a strong way. There's no better example than the R'hllor Priests, Melisandre, Moqorro, Thoros, they are now receiving visions and abilities that they never had before, shadow babies, resurrect the dead, that thing Moqorro did to Victarion arm D: crazy stuff. It has even affected people like Bran, there has no been such a powerful greenseer since Brynden, and so on.
Like you says maybe everything is balance, but I firmly believe that is after the dragons birth, that magic became more active and powerful than before. The Others were always there, dormant or not. But Dragons were completely extinct, Many tried to bring them back and failed, until of course, Dany was successful.
Maybe they were the last piece to an incomplete magic puzzle. Either way, I don't think we'll ever know fully how magic works in this story.
I always think of the Others as like cicadas, sort of buried then reawaken every thousand years or so. I definitely think it is the reappearance of the Others that made magical powers stronger.
I think that the 3 riders for the dragons will be Dany of course, Jon, and Bran. Bran will "never be able to walk again, but he will learn how to fly". I think that's symoblism and foreshadowing that Bran will learn to warg into anything or anyone, and will fly the third dragon.
Off Topic (Kind of): Watch this xD Hahahaha I though it was funny http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Krz-d...
Had already seen it, but brilliant anyways. Those guys are awesome.
Omg I've never seen that video before, it's hilarious !! Thank you for sharing!I think I'll go watch it again lol
Well, Struan Rodger has been cast as the "Three-Eyed Raven" for Season 4. Wow Bran's arc will reach ADWD this season! George needs to be fast D:
Yes, Season 4 will include parts of SoS, FFC & DwD. It is speculated that there will be a composite of Coldhands & 3-eye, the thought of an actor embedded into a cave wall & part tree may not have appealed to HBO. Plus Leaf has been rumored to be cast. There is a funny song called "Write like the Wind" which u can find on youtube searching 'wootstock'. Find the full version then the version where GRRM smashes the guitar.
Do you guys think that WoW will come out next winter? I wouldn't mind but this seems so optimistic to me.
I hope that the release of DOD in paper will have a new chapter of WoW and a 'coming in winter of 2014' tag instead of a 'coming soon' tag. We will know more by spring of 2014, certain publisher hints that predict a release date. It is a hopeful sign that a new Dunk & Egg collection has a 2015 projected pub date. That would almost insure a WOW coming in 2014 as publishers hate to bigfoot a project.
I haven't really watched the show, only the first season and various clips from 2 & 3 on youtube, however I know enough to know one of my favourite scenes will be omitted.(view spoiler)
No need to hide spoilers here Cheryl :)Yea, they decided to use a Frey bannerman I think, I believe Arya asked Jaquen to kill the Tickler in Harrenhall on the show
Cheryl wrote: "I haven't really watched the show, only the first season and various clips from 2 & 3 on youtube, however I know enough to know one of my favourite scenes will be omitted.[spoilers removed]"
Yep, hated that Cheryl.
I would have really liked it if they'd let Arya kill the Tickler, but then again, they don't play him up like they do in the books anyway.
By the way, anyone know the difference between the Others and the Whitewalker?
An Other is a White Walker, however a Wight is not. A wight is controlled by an Other. Others are sentient. Wights are not. Except apparently Coldhands....however in my opinion, the rules of Logic would suggest that Coldhands is likely controlled by an Other as well, just one that isn't making him do a bunch of killing stuff.
No faction is EVER completely Evil or Good.
Also just to add to what Nelson said, Magic has always been stronger and worked at the poles of the world. Asshai, near Valyria, and anything past the Wall have had functional magic the entire time. After Dragons are reborn it increases exponentially and the reaches of magic stretch to cover the rest of the world again.
Now to get theoretical and because I think it will be a fun discussion:
I do agree that it has something to do with balance. From what I grasp, my opinion is that Magic has two sides, Ice and Fire, it has two strong factions of support for these opposites, The Worshippers of R'hllor and The Others, My personal opinion is that these are two separate factions of magic powered by different magical anomalies. For instance, Bran experiences warging and dreams before any dragons are ever born, so does Jon and I'd put money on Robb too his connection with Greywind is uncanny, but this, in my opinion, is a magic powered by Ice, hence why it was still prevalent beyond the wall and you don't hear anything about Wargs in Asshai. I feel that the magic of "Ice" is probably powered by the awakening of Others (I always thought of them a bit like cicadas too) and the onset of Winter (which is what causes the Others to awaken, in my opinion) This also lends some sensical measure to the Stark Manta of Winter is Coming, as ancestors of the Starks would be wargs who took their magical strength from the onset of winter and reawakening of the Others.
Now, however, before the birth of dragons occurs, we see virtually no actual magic based around fire. It's suggested that it occurs around the Jade Sea still and in Asshai, however after the birth of dragons it becomes much more prevalent and we begin to see amazing differences in the powers of those who support the side of Fire.
It just appears as if magic strengthens collectively, however in my opinion, Fire was strengthened by the birth of the dragons, then grows more and more powerful as they grow and Ice was strengthened with the reawakening of a large group of Others, and becomes stronger and stronger as Winter dawns. The two events just happen concurrently so it appears magic is controlled by one thing instead of opposing factors.
Okay...that was long, hopefully that made sense, and just to clarify that last part is just my opinion. Nelson covered the cannon stuff.
I'm trying to think of a situation in which we will find out Jon Snow's parentage. Who is alive that still knows? Probably Varys since he seems to know everything, but I find him unlikely to tell anyone. Otherwise, what about Howland Reed? He is the only remaining survivor from when Ned went to rescue Lyanna. The only other thing I can think of is if while Jon is "dead" at the beginning of the next book he connects with Eddard through the weir wood trees. Remember, Eddard said last time he saw Jon that the next time they saw eachother they would talk about Jon's mother. Thoughts anyone?
Howland Reed was present and is still alive, he could provide such information possibly.Also it's highly likely that servants, at the least, were present as well. If R+L works out, no doubt a maester was there.
Also if Jon came from TOJ, people at Starfall probably have some inkling of what happened. Especially Willa, a confirmed servant still in employ.
Chris wrote: "Well, after 5 books, there are lots of plot lines and mysteries about our series. The readers have many ideas and guesses as to what is happening behind the scenes, and what will happen as the seri..."Okay what if it was some crazy Jerry Springer stuff? Rhaegar and Lyanna made Deny, but Lyanna and her "true love" Rob did the deed and made Jon? And Rhaegar found out and killed Lyanna and wanted to kill the son too and that's the reason all hell broke loose? I mean it's somewhat predictable but I this theory brings peace to me. haha And of course this means that he will be back. Miss creepy yet sexy red lady will do her juju and bring him back.
And Sansa will end up Queen. Somehow. She deserves it man lol
Oh and whats up with my Khaleesi? She's bald now??? NOOOOOOOOO :(
I wonder what is so controversial about Sansa's new chapter. Mmmm.
"Eyehavenofilter wrote: "Jon wrote: "I watched an interview with Hodor (OK, the actor) and he said his favorite theory is that Hodor is a Clegane brother and when he was little, Gregor - in a similiar vain to when he burne..."____________________
It clearly states in the books that Hodor is Old Nan's son. A lot of these theories rely too heavily on disregarding information presented to us. If you have to pick and choose what is true and what isn't then the theory is ultimately worthless imho.
The same goes for the Brandon raping Lyanna theory. 1) there is no evidence for it 2) there is plenty of information that contradicts it and 3) there is no point to it. I.e. What does it matter? What does it add to the story? Answers..."it doesn't" and "nothing"!!
Loving this thread though and I've still only read the first few pages.
But not believing Ramsay's letter is completely legitimate in my opinion_____________________
I couldn't agree more! The guy is a pathological liar and all round bad egg. I don't think we are supposed to unquestioningly believe anything that Ramsey says!
Jon still would be a bastard and because of that he wouldn't be next in line to the Throne, he would be more like a Brynden Rivers. ____________________
But a bastard son of a true king still has a better claim to the throne than a bastard of Lannister.
That's why Joffrey had all of Robert's bastards killed.
Also, any king or queen can make a bastard legit - as Stannis offered to do for Jon Snow.
In that sense only Dany would have a better claim to the throne, assuming she ever stops faffing about in Mereen to get her rear end over to Westeros!
Has anyone seen the new trailer for season 4 with the shadow of a dragon flying over Kings Landing? Interesting! That doesn't even happen in the books to my recollection.
I want to think the dragons respond to a person destined to ride them and not jus a warg, as any number of wildlings can just control them_____________________
Not necessarily...Wildlings can't control people like Bran controlled Hodor. So maybe only certain people can warg dragons just as only a few can ride them.
It clearly states in the books that Hodor is Old Nan's son.Actually, he is old Nan's great grandson, not her son.
That's why Joffrey had all of Robert's bastards killed.
Cersei is the one who has the bastards killed. Joff never knew he was a bastard.
Outside that, the rightful heir is Stannis at this point.
Dany could make a decent claim but would have to war for it. If Aegon is the "real" Aegon, or even if he is accepted as such, he has a better claim than Dany. Still, he'll have to war for it too. There is no motivator for any of them to legitimize Jon as a Targaryen, it would only complicate matters for them personally.
As far as the dragon over King's Landing in the season 4 trailer goes, I have a feeling that it's a flashback of Balerion.At least I hope it is as Dany nor her dragons have reached Westeros yet in the books.
, even Aegon is not rightful heir, because the Targaryen Dynasty was overthrown and now the Baratheon's are the one's offering heirs. If anyone is the "rightful" heir, as in by Westerosi law, it is Stannis Baratheon. End of Story. _____________________
But by that logic anyone who takes the iron throne by conquest is the rightful King/Queen by right of conquest. I.e. as soon as their buttocks hit throne they have squatters' rights and their children become the rightful heirs to the throne. The law may state that this is true but loyalty is not that fickle.
At the end of the day, the story has clearly shown that rights don't mean much without loyalty. I.e. it isn't about who has the right - all that matters is who commands loyalty and many are still loyal to the Targaryans.
But by that logic anyone who takes the iron throne by conquest is the rightful King/Queen by right of conquest.Pretty much, yah, that's how it works.
Lets not forget how the Targaryen's put there butts on the throne....by conquest. They took Westeros by spreading fear of their dragons.
Also I don't know how many are really that loyal to Targaryen's, I mean, they have Dorne, but that's about it in the actual land of Westeros and it's kinda torn up between Dany and Aegon at this point.
Treason For Gold: This is where it gets speculative. I have a hard time choosing whether I support the idea that this is Jorah. ________________
I didn't remember the wording of this but if it's "treason for gold" then surely it can't be Jorah? Maybe I'm getting mixed up with the tv show but I thought he spied on Dany in return for a pardon so that he could be free to return to Westeros. Is this so or do I err?
As long as we're considering who has the "rightful" claim to the throne, I'd like to point out how the Baratheons justified their taking of it to begin with.They're descended directly from a line of the Targaryens.
6. Is he a eunuch? I mean, who checked? _________________
I don't think anyone checked in the books but Ros checked in the TV show! That's how she knew who he was.
I know you can't always read much into what happens on the show but something as fundamental as this would be known by the TV producers as I believe they do know broadly what each character's story arc is supposed to be.
I.e. why would they confirm on the TV show that Varys is definitely a eunuch unless that's exactly what he is? There was no need to offer concrete proof of this - and I'm sure they wouldn't have if this was a significant point. GRRM does supervise the show after all. He even writes some of the episodes.
I agree, he most likely is a eunuch. Outside the show, he isn't compelled by the things men are normally compelled by psychologically/physically, this makes him hard to predict, which is, in my opinion, what makes him so dangerous.
Pied wrote: "6. Is he a eunuch? I mean, who checked? _________________
I don't think anyone checked in the books but Ros checked in the TV show! That's how she knew who he was.
I know you can't always read m..."
I think I wrote that original question you're quoting, but it's been awhile.
At any rate, it was written well before Ros groped the poor fellow on the show. In fact, when I first saw that scene, I muttered something about my theory being blown to hell.
