Valar Morghulis--Valar Dohaeris discussion
A Song of Ice and Fire
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Theories & Speculations: SPOILERS for all books
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Amber
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Sep 30, 2013 04:13PM
Nice Stephen. I think you may have that one pinned pretty good.
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I totally agree with many of ur points Stephen, I've said it in another discussion but LF is a 'Wild" card vs a 'trump' card if the analogy can be somewhat accurate because even he does things that don't make sense for him or without knowing the exact outcome to keep everyone guessing on the players moves & motives. LF is far beyond most other players in the game & I think he & Tyrion are similar in cleverness but each has they're own advantages (i.e. Born in noble house vs. not viewed as a born mutant thereby making oneself blend/disappear much easier). He's proved his foresight is well beyond average but at the same time eventually he will run into the Sansa problem, one I don't think he knows how to handle yet, since its a game its dynamic & his base OCD over Sansa/Cat, & yes absolutely LF <3's LF, I wonder what would happen if Lady Stoneheart (re-animated) CAT would do if she knew the extent of engineering he had in everything that has happened up to her death (from Ned to finally his deeds against Tully & sister, even though she was bonkers, & Sansa = Alayne situation). That meeting would be quite fun, I wonder how LF's nerve would stand up if she were to ask him if he 'still loved her now?' LOL? esp. if she were to repeat all she knows about his deeds? That be interesting to read...
LF is far beyond most other players in the game & I think he & Tyrion are similar in cleverness but each has they're own advantages I completely agree with this. Before the show started posing Littlefinger against Varys all the time, I always thought from the novels, that the ultimate battle of wits would be Littlefinger vs. Tyrion.
Both are incredible characters. I wish GRRM would have made LF a POV. I would totally trade all the Greyjoy chapters for Littlefinger. (Except Asha, she's the only Greyjoy worth anything)
Oh boo him.Although I would be interested in reading some of his travel logs from Valyria! That'd be sick side project for Martin to work on.
I want more from him, he's really interesting IMHO :P
I think Euron will get his own POV. It is a perfect Vehicle to get info on Assasi and R'hllor. Also he is evil. Damphair & Asha fled the kingsmoot cause they feared for their life. Victarion hates him and it is this hatred that will bind Vic & Dany into an alliance.
Well, George said that after ADWD there won't be any new POV characters. They are too many.
I know he said some POVs will die, (Yes I am looking at you Jaime, Cersi and Theon) but he stated he is going to tell the story of Osha & Rikon since Winterfell & I do not know how he will do that other from a new POV. Maybe he will use a Davos POV. But every book has had a new POV.
Davos POV for Asha and Rickon. There's no need for a another one. Everybody is in place right now. The only new ones for the last 2 books will be the ones of the Prologue/Epilogue as always. We'll see.
I would love for the prologue to be someone in the very north, as far up as no one has ever been and who might run into the First Men (or something like that). This person, of course, then turns out to be Benjen Stark. That's how I'd do it. But Martin probably comes up with something else.
This writer I think hit all the major points of what should be in WoW.http://www.the-mainboard.com/index.ph...
@Laura Until now he have been doing a pattern of north/south with the prologues.AGOT: North
ACOK: South
ASOS: North
AFFC: South
ADWD: North
If he keeps with that it must be South next again :)
@Stephen I'll read the link thanks :)
Ah, I didn't realise that. I would also be happy with a Benjen Epilogue though ;) But then I could imagine a prologue in Assai or in dragonstone (or was there one already?).And that's a very nice link Stephen, he mentions everything. But if all those 12 plot points really happen or just make a progress, this book will be huuuuuge! (not that I would mind)
Yeah it would be could to have Benjen in a prologue/epilogue. But that would mean he has to die D: that's the rule for the prologue/epilogue POV characters :(Winds of Winter should be like another Storm of Swords where the pacing is rather fast and things just keep happening and happening. After all it has two set up books before it. So a lot of shit should go down in this one D:
LOL, I was mostly just teasing Nelson. He is interesting, plus him basically being a pirate is pretty awesome.I don't know if he'll get his own POV, just on the front Martin has introduced Mel as POV to go into all that shit I think. He only gave her one chapter so far, but in my opinion, I think she'll have a lot more by the end of the story.
I really liked her POV chapter and she is kinda evil in away also, but a more likeable way....
I mean...she's hot, who cares if she spends her days burning men and children alive. LOL. J/k.
I also support a Benjen Epilogue. Hell, I'd take a prologue where he dies, just say wtf happened to him already. LOL
I would love if there are no Jon chapters for the the whole of WOW and Mel is the POV on the wall. It would give her introduction as POV in ADWD a lot more of weight. Like when Dany was gone we got Barristan to be our POV in Meereen.We need more pirates in fantasy. :(
OMG, I would actually love that too.I'm pretty over Dany and Jon POV's
Dany is worse than Sansa at this point (imo)
and Jon has never been a favorite POV character for me. I always found him to be a bit whiney honestly. I like when other characters narrate the wall better, like when Tyrion was their, or when Sam gets a couple chapters, Mel's chapter was better for me too.
Not that he's a bad character, but my favorite Stark has always been Arya. Easy.
I never liked Catelyn. The part with Jon in Bran's room left me cold. And she could not see pass Littlefinger's lies and mistreated Tyrion. I love Daenery Stormborn. From being a frightened young girl to Mother of Dragons, brillant. Arya is a favorite of mine and when she hits Westeros would it not be great if Arya, Nymeria and Brother Hound get back together to kill Freys & Boltons. And Jon & Bran will play a major role verses the Others.
Yah I had a bad reaction to Cat on my first read, but through other reads I've seen her perspective and I can't fully blame her.Maybe it's because I'm a woman though that I understand. Sometimes chicks just lash out all crazy. Especially when we're emotional or hormonal. Best to just avoid woman in these states really. LOL.
Dany is what pulled me into reading the series honestly, and I liked her through the beginning of the series, but I feel like the last really badass thing she did was when she let the dragon burn up the slave driver and freed the Unsullied.
After that it's just like...meh. And now everytime she has a chapter it's about Daario doing this or that and being the sexiest man alive. BORING.
But yes, Arya. Agree so much. Who doesn't love that little badass? And yes, that would be awesome. I would also accept Gendry to be a part of their group. LOL.
I really wasn't expecting it but Davos has quickly become a favorite of mine too, he's quite possibly the luckiest man alive in ASOIAF. Usually I wouldn't like how lucky he is, but everyone else gets screwed over so much it's kinda nice actually LOL.
I have never like Dany, She's so annoying. All the other women are much, much, better, Brienne and Arya <3 even Cersei! I hate her! but her chapters are really entertaining.
Hopefully once Bran learns the crazy Worg skills his POV will be crazy, I find Samwell POV a bit of a yawn, except for the info it might contain, his thinking is obv. one craven. Dany has been downhill since she got her unsullied army, I hope she really takes her next POV by the throat & shows us how she will go thru with her threats & then get her Kalissare back! Arya is always interesting, she's one of my fav's & Sansa... UGH... besides the parts after LF took her with the pinnacle of the moon door exit stage left for Lysa, its been like a Brillo pad scrubbing my brain.
Mel is def a babe, when I read the book I envisioned something diff. but when they casted her in the show & she had her scenes, Hooollla! love those redheads :P
LOL you guys are funny.I like Sam. I think he is sweet. But I kinda have a soft spot for those sorts. LOL.
I hope that Dany's POV picks up now too since she's kinda stranded or whatever and Daario isn't around for her to think about every 5 sentences. :) And I totally agree about Cersei. I love ALL the Lannister POV's they're my favorite house simply because their isn't a single Lannister who isn't interesting. LOL.
And yah...I didn't picture Mel like that either, but I admit, even though I'm a straight chick, I was like...DAMN in that naked scene she had. I was seriously jealous of her boobs man. That bitch can't have children or those were totally fake. I'm still deciding.
LOL- excuse my language but seriously...I've been thinking about that since it happened.
There are ways u can get a boob job & still breast feed, size is the issue.Or even better... U get a boob job, AFTER ur done having kids & breastfeeding.
HA... personally, I like au-naturalle, too big just gets in the way, her's were nice, large C or < is fine with me. I'm not a pig or anything, wait, why am I talking about this? U SEE this is how Robb started his ultimate demise, little thoughts like these, pretty soon u don't want a 'Frey' anymore, or in that house an ugly woman born out of some incest or grandpa laying with a 18 year old...
I also agree about Lanister, but only Jamie & Tyrion, Cersei was interesting in the beginning but I think she's just going bonkers now & gonna get her other 2 children killed.
I mostly thought that perkiness was the issue. LOL. They weren't huge by any means but they were certainly perky. Which in my professional opinion (meaning as a woman LOL) is a feat once you have children or surpass the age of 25 with anything above C cup.U SEE this is how Robb started his ultimate demise, little thoughts like these, pretty soon u don't want a 'Frey' anymore
and LOL. This should be made into a comic strip.
I like Cersei simply because the portrayal of her insanity is so spot on, her character makes perfect sense. The way she thinks is so crazy that when you read it, your just like...oh...well....this explains A LOT.
Yeah :D it's super fun to watch how she is destroying herself muahahahahahaha (diabolic laugh*)
I know it's kinda twisted, but it totally is for me as well.
:D coming home to a discussion that leaves the usual trail of this thread. I like.^^I don't know why everyone dislikes Sansa that much, actually. I mean I can see why people hate her and she behaved pretty badly, especially in GoT, but I think that she is very real. In a way I find her character a lot more realistic than Arya's, even though Arya is pretty badass. Plus, I love seeing Littlefinger's scheming.
In the beginning I found Davos a very boring character but now...he is one of my favs. GRRM was a bit mean in DWD though. I mean he gets three chapters (probably three of the most interesting chapters in the whole book!), in the last of these you think "OMG Rickon! This changes everything". Then you read on, BAM, book is finished and you start to think: "OMG did Jon just die? Probably not, considering the resurrection quote of the last couple of deaths." and then "Hang on a sec, wasn't Davos supposed to free Rickon? What happened to Jaime who went with Brienne to Lady Stoneheart? What about Sam in Oldtown? Asha and Theon are reunited? Was there really not a single chapter about LF? Varys, WTF, Varys!!?" and then, finally "I need Winds of Winter. NOW" Winds of Winter better answer all my answer, GRRM!!
I wonder when Nymeria will show up again. I have been waiting for her to reappear for the last four books and I am convinced she will.
I disliked Sansa a lot through my first reads, but the more times I read it the more I get her as well. Same thing happens with a lot of characters for me.Really, in my opinion, Sansa is no different from Bran, Bran's fairy tales just work out so people don't judge him so much.
When really, Bran's a total idiot, what kind of medieval paraplegic would ever think it was a good idea to go to the most dangerous place in the WHOLE WORLD, while a child, with almost no way of defending themselves, not enough food or water, no proper clothing, no maps, no horses, accompanied by two children, one of which basically suffers magically induced epilepsy, and a man that is mentally deficient. All because of a few stupid dreams about birds with three eyes. *sigh*
Now that, my friends, is not only bad judgement, it's simply insane.
Sansa is a bit lame, but I agree, it's realistic especially for her age. And honestly, I can't say she's pulling anything as totally idiotic as the above. LOL
Nymeria is the head of a large pack that has been roaming the Trident area. The pack has attacked numerous patrols. I love the way Sansa has gone from'I'am a little princess" to "I wanna Die" to "I am going to survive." GRRM has said that he is writing (now wrote?) a Sansa chapter that will be very controversial. Vary came out of the wall to kill Kevan and while kevan sat dying told him what his motives are and who he supports.
You were not the only one who misjudged Davos. In the audio books the narrarator gave Davos a high sinister sounding voice , but by the second audio Davos character's voice got deeper and more stately. Finally, yes GRRM left alot of cliffhangers, which means that WOW will set all sorts of download records and proably crash the system. I think about all the people that have finally read the series just in the past year. GRRM used his new $$ to renovate a theater in his hometown of Sante Fe. I am planning a vacation to Santa Fe just for that reason.
Stephen wrote: "Nymeria is the head of a large pack that has been roaming the Trident area. The pack has attacked numerous patrols. I love the way Sansa has gone from'I'am a little princess" to "I wanna Die" ..."
Hey Stephen u listened to the Audiobooks by Roy Dotrice? Those are the ones I listened to after I read the originals & Davos sounds like a pirate, or the smuggler he is, but he makes his backbone as strong as his books depict which makes him a lovable character for many people, he's not afraid to tell Stannis that one of his moves is shitty to his face... I personally liked Davos chapters reading but starting loving them after I heard the audio's
I love Davos. Born in Flea Bottom, became smuggler, then, was knighted and now Hand of the King! Wow! And correct me if I'm wrong but he is the only character that represents the common man in Westeros. All of the others POV come from nobility. (Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Grejoys) or come from a mysterious background. (Melisandre) While Davos is just that someone who comes from way down.
Maybe, only Hotah is similar. He also came from way down. but this from Essos.
Wow! there 19 POV characters now (if we count Jon out) And these are the ones with more chapters (including the ones know from WOW):
-Tyrion: 49
-Jon: 42
-Arya: 34
-Daenerys: 31
-Catelyn: 25
-Sansa: 25
-Bran: 21
Oh that's cool to know Stephen. I always thought if for some awesome reason I had millions of dollars I'd do something similar. After your vacation you'll have to let us know if it was really cool or what. I might do the same if its not too packed with people.
Also I'm pretty sure you are right Nelson. Davos is one of the only regular people pov's. I think that definitely plays a role in my liking his character so much. But I must admit I also like that he just calls things how he sees them. All the other characters have these agendas and motives you have to guess at and why, but Davos isn't like that at all.
Yes, because of his upbringing he's not into the whole intrigue bullshit everybody else seems to be so fond of. But unlike Ned who didn't like it either Davos has been lucky xD
For me, it is Arya who is the voice of the common people. She never acted like nobility, became friends with the low born and I began biting my lip when life got frustrating. Yeah, i got all of Ice & Fire on my MP3 player,( no music at all, just books. My phone has music when my brain wants to veg) as well as the book with the original cheesy cover art. As for GRRM's adventure into theater ownership, his website blog gives updates on events and they look like a blast.
She never acted like nobility but that's all she knew. At least for the first three books, she's all out his element all the time. Right now she's more close to the commoners. She has lived and shared with them. But still, now she's part the Faceless Men! I don't know how can she be the voice of the common people when she never was one of them?
Remember the part when Arya, rather than having lunch with the queen, ran off to practice swordfighting with the butcher's boy? Or that the workers at winterfell called her Arya Underfoot. Or how she became friends with Hot Pie even though she broke his nose. Or how she became Cat of the Canals? Another true voice of the common people has to be Septon Maribal. FFC 533-5.
All of those things are part of her learning and personality no part of her being a voice of the common people. You see, she choices to learn sword fighting not because she's of the common people, but because she knows that the other option, being a lady (like Sansa) is not what she likes. common people wouldn't have that kind of choice.
The same happens with the butcher boy and the workers inside Winterfell. Being nice doesn't make you voice of the common people, specially in the first where she's still protected and surround it by the nobility world.
Her friendship with Hot Pie didn't develop because she's the voice of the common people. it developed because of the need to survive. Remember that he mean to Arya until she took matter in her hands. The same happened when she became Cat of the Canals. She was forced to do it. She was force to survive as being part of her training as a Faceless Men. (something that is very far from being common people).
She's just a niece person, but she doesn't belong nor to the common people nor to the nobility. That's her character arc, and we can already where it lead her. to be something special.
Meribald for me would be the good example of what religion should do for people. Specially after what he did when he was young. (Parallelism with really is just a coincidence) Make people feel better is something the Seven, Lord of Light and the Old Gods seem to be ignoring, for they are busy with other things.
I agree with Nelson in that Arya no matter what is still highborn so she has always been in a '[bubble' like it or not, she just mixes well with the commoners while Davos was one, a smuggler who had to pay the price with fingers even after he smuggled in food to save Stannis... Imagine that? If I just snuck in & saved his life & he's like well u can be a knight but I'm gonna cut these fingers off cuz u were a smuggler, I'd be like, why the fuck did I come help u, doesn't that excuse me from losing bodyparts? nooo, not Stannis, his mercy is a few fingers lol, either way, Davos is completely low born, raised to knight with the exchange of fingers & promise not to smuggle unless hes doing it for the king, & now he's the hand, the 1st one I think that came from non-nobility if Stannis become3s king, which I don't think he will, I hope Davos finds a way to survive but its hard cuz he's too loyal.Anyways I also wanted to bring up the theory that's been around, I don't know if anyone brought it up yet, I don't remember reading it, but what about TYRION's background?
I'm not on this bandwagon all though ts a really cool thought. ThatTyrion is the bastard child of Joanna & Aerys? It mentions Aerys & the animosity towards Tywin, & he was known to rape women, etc... any thoughts? or does anyone believe this at all? Tyrion hair is lighter then his other siblings, almost white they describe plus mismatched eyes... does anyone lend credence to this theory? I'd like to hear more from anyone that thinks this? that Tyrion is the 3rd head & not Jon due to his background? I know its a real small thing to look into, but before he dies he says 'u are no child of mine', is it just words before death cuz ur son shot u or is he throwing it out cuz he knows he's gonna die? I know any father might say that to his son if his son is killing him, but Tywins never been restraint on how much he hates Tyrion & how he killed Joanna, & how he was so much happier a person before that experience, & he's already told Tyrion in so many ways he doesn't consider him a real son by declining his right on Casterly Rock while alive, plus so much more. Perhaps Joanna was raped & Tywin never knew if he really was his son, only that he came from Joanna... I KNOW REALLY long reach, but I thought it was an interesting theory just to think about for the next couples years LMAO... GRMM u better not croak on us!
I also think Tysha (a sailors wife) is going to make an appearance at some point, that would be interesting.
Also, did Nelson or Stephen already post this, its an excerpt from Theon POV in AWOW...http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/sam...
I'm sure someone already posted Arianne POV from Dorne, if someone missed the link let me know I'll post it, also if anyone missed the link to the WoW Victorian POV I can past that link along too, I heard someone wrote it down as it was dictated, u gotta love the fans love & willingness lol, I'm sure this has all been posted but just in case, 3 alleged POV from 'TWOW'
For me the three heads are Jon, Tyrion and Dany.Barristan insight over the whole thing is really interesting. I really don't know how many evidence it's out there but the implication that Barristan puts on the table is certainly really, really interesting. The things that come from the top of my head are:
1. Tywin hates towards Tyrion (this could be shared with Joanna's death, of course)
2. His reluctance to give Tyrion Casterly Rock.
3. The common knowledge that Aerys took privileges with the wives of his subjects. (This is a real world thing)
4. That Aerys was attracted to and took advantage of Joanna.
5. Tywin animosity towards Aerys (this also includes taking Jaime as Kingsguard)
6. Tyrion's blond hair is more pale than their siblings. the mismatched eyes.
7. Tyrion's dreams of dragons. his fascination with them since he was a kid.
8. Tywin last words to him.
We also have what Gemma Lannister told Jaime in AFFC:
"Jaime, sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak...but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year."
When I first read it. I took it as Gemma telling Jaime that he's not like his father in personality and intellect. Tyrion is the one that is totally like Tywin in those regards. I dismiss the importance of Tywin's anger. But after reading ADWD. I though that his anger at the Gemma's comment can be seem like. "Well, Thank you sister. For telling me that MY SON the one that can take care of my House, of my reputation, of my Legacy, is the only son who is not actually mine. FUCK YOU GEMMA!" xD Total failure on his part.
Also, I know this is getting kind of long but I will also like to connect this with another thing that I find fascinating.
If Tywin was so disgunted with Tyrion when he was born, why didn't he killed him? The though surely went through his head. But he didn't do it. Why? His love for Joanna? Sure. Something else? I think there is. Kinslaying.
Joanna and Tywin were cousins. They were blood. So even if it is true when Tywin says "You are no son of mine" Tyrion is still his blood, Tyrion is still a Lannister of sorts. He's kin.
Now kinslaying is like the worst thing i Westeros really. Incest, murder, all those things pale beside kinslaying.
Even people like Victarion fears it. He takes the though of killing Euron of his head because kinslaying is wrong. Even Roose Bolton! that crazy SOB stops when he thinks about killing Ramsay because that would cursed him. So for me Tywin though the same thing.
Kinslaying is really something to be cautious from.
Robb killing Rickard Karstark. Both families are related at some point. BANG! Robb is dead.
Craster sacrificing his sons. BOOM dead.
So, I really expect lot of characters to pass through a lot of pain in the last books because of this "curse".
Sadly, Tyrion is on the list. I don't know if Dany letting Viserys die counts... but I think it does. Euron also if he really was involved in Balon's death. Cersei for abortion!
Now what do you think about Theon as kinslayer? I was reading his chapters from ADWD a couple of days ago. and it caught my attention. it would be a reason for all the bad stuff that has happened to Theon (I believe he has suffered more than enough) And who is the man in "A Ghost in Winterfell" that calls him kinslayer? I have no clue. I'll have to research it. But I really think is really interesting o_o
I'm glad someone else has the same opinion about that Gemma-Jaime conversation in AFFC. I was rereading it this summer (I'd come across the theory about Tyrion not being Tywin's son a couple of days before) and I thought "wouldn't this incident between Gemma and Tywin be awesome if Tyrion really wasn't Tywin's?"Besides, if Tyrion is Aerys' son, it might improve his chances of riding a dragon, right? Though I think I read somewhere that GM said that you don't have to be a Targaryen to be able to ride a dragon, is that a fact?
What you need to ride a dragon is magic, The Targaryen as many other families of old Valyria were bound to the dragons by magic spells and horns... that's why the Targaryen bloodline still has that ability. Even if by now hit is very diluted. We have to see how good Euron's horn works. We'll find out about some riders next book for sure.
Honestly, I don't think the theory that Tyrion is Aerys son will pan out.It is true that Aerys was actually in love with Joanna Lannister and hoped to marry her before he was forced to marry his sister, however I don't believe their was any access for him to have had sex with Joanna during the time of Tyrion's conception.
We know that he attended the wedding of Tywin and Joanna and that he "took certain liberties during the bedding" whatever that means, but during Tyrion's conception and birth she is at Casterly Rock while Aerys is in Kings Landing.
The simple fact alone that Tyrion has so many physical disabilities is pretty strong evidence that he is Tywin and Joanna's son, because these disabilities are likely the product of incest. Tywin and Joanna were first cousins. Though Targaryen's also practice incest, Aerys and Rhaella were actually the first to do so in literally generations, and a child between Aerys and Joanna would probably have been born physically able considering it would not have incestual genetic makeup and all of Aerys children were born able bodied.
Outside of that, which is definitely debatable. Tyrion has no characteristics of Targaryen's. His eyes are mismatched Green and Black. No purple. Tywin does have green eyes though. His hair is a mixture of pale blonde and black in Dance with Dragons. Not white or silver. He's directly referenced to be similar to Tywin in mind and I can't help but agree.
I've always thought if any of the children weren't actual Lannister's it was probably the Twins.
I also thought that, but it would be super lame (for me) if Jaime and Cersei are half Targ. I don't know, I don't like it! I prefer to believe that Aerys kept being an asshole and doing stuff with Joanna. He deserves to ride those Dragons! D: he likes dragons!!! He needs to be one of the heads and King! at the end :D
No though on the whole kinslaying thing :(?
(As a side note, not related to my post, I feel like everybody likes dragons but I never like dragons. I don't even know why, but usually I am put off by dragons in books. I can handle them in small amounts such as in this books (even though they start to become more important) or in Harry Potter, but books about dragons or dragon riders - no thanks!)Personally, I don't think that Tyrion is not Tywin's son. So I believe Tyrion is really Tywin's son. I think their relationship is a great story arch and very realistic, the whole build up of Tywin's death and what happens after with Tyrion would lose its significance if Tyrion wasn't Tywin's son. The revenge Tyrion took on his father is such a strong impact on the family dynamics and on Tyrion's character growth and dynamic that it would be a shame if Tywin wasn't his father.
I agree with Amber that if, then it would be the twins. When Gemma (was that her name?) tells Jaime that Tyrion is Tywin's son and not Jaime, she might have told the truth because she knows something that no one else does? From what I have read in this thread you seem to think that's an evidence that Tyrion isn't a Lannister, but I don't see this. I also don't think this has to be understood literally.
(not quite sure whether that's understandable, I am too tired to think in English^^)
It would not be books about dragons riders but as you say they are important, and the fact that there will be dragon riders as been hinted since the beginning. Like I said I think both theories could be possible but I prefer the one were Tyrion is not Tywin's son by blood but by upbringing (They are equal in cunning and personality) that wouldn't make Tyrion not be son of Tywin (sorry is the construction in this sentence is atrocious D:) At least for me, your true father is the one who raises you, and Tyrion is the perfect example of that.
But yeah both could be true. When I look at it from both ways, Tywin is mad because:
1. His true son, the one who his actually like him, is not his own by blood.
Or
2. His true son is the one who is deformed and ugly, while Aerys sons are pretty and all that.
But as another head-cannon of mine I would like to think that Tywin praises more intelligence, cunning and cleverness than bravery and beauty. But maybe is just me it seems :P
I get what you are saying about the Kinslaying Nelson - and I think it could play into things. He didn't want to kill Tyrion because it would be bad luck for his house. Though I do believe Tyrion is Tywin's son, either way, you would be correct. No matter the equation they are definitely related.I think, another thing that plays into Tywin not killed Tyrion during his childhood or something, to be that Jaime was very protective of him and cared for Tyrion very much. We know that Tywin did actually care about Jaime's opinion and he wouldn't want that rift between them. Even when Jaime misled Tyrion about Tysha it was done because he thought he was doing what was best for Tyrion in the long run.
I have to agree with Laura though that Tyrion not being Tywin's son would take away so much from the dynamic of their relationship and pretty much obliterate the climax. I personally felt the climax was just another perfect example of how the two men were absolutely similar. I've felt from my own reads that Tywin's hatred for Tyrion was simply because of the absolute reflection of himself he saw in a person considered to be a monster. This, in my opinion, is especially jarring for Tywin because his family is the standard of perfection and beauty, however, the only difference between himself and Tyrion, in the end, was outward and the older a man grows the more his outward appearance fades and the inner monster becomes visible.
I don't know...that's just the way I felt about it though. I think it's definitely subjective.
In the end Tywin was just a hater, meaning I think he knew how smart & clever Tyrion was from that first battle at the Fork where Tyrion recruited his own 'army' of sellswords, to what he did as hand, his dad can lecture all he wants but anyone in the know realized Tyrion saved Kings Landing until his father came to back him up. He begrudging says the large chain was a good idea, but even the wild fire, as much as Cersei is or wants to take credit for any of it, in those times it was no place for a female in war & it was Tyrion leading the battle for the keep while she was ready to poison herself & Joff. No matter what he did, his dad would always fall back to him sleeping with whores (hypocrite as we all know), so they were so alike he was absolutely in denial & ready to piss on any deed he ever did, ever. I mean he was giving his one 'son' who has no hand a beautiful sword, Tyrion gets chopped liver... what happened with the extra sword? Did Tywin give it away? to Tyrells? Besides Oathkeeper, wheres the other? I don't remember.I think even tho what Jamie did to Tyrion was fucked up, he was young & ignorant but it causes a permanent blood rift between Jamie & Tyrion after Jamie decides to tell him the truth as part of his 12-step program or whatever lol, people hate him for the best thing he did for the kingdom (keeping kings landing from not being blown up) & he is reviled by a brother he truly loves after leveling with him. Tyrion has truly turned his back on his siblings & cementing it with a quarrel to his 'dad' on the Privy... oooof, what a crappy way to go, convenient for what happens to ur body, but he went out Elvis style.
I def. am curious if Jamie & Tyrion meet again what will happen, because I think Jamie will be able to fight lefty well, & I hope he doesn't die quickly by lady S., I feel like Jamie knows (strong hunch) where Sansa might be & compelled to return her... I have my fingers crossed he turns out to be like one of the hero's he reads in the Kingsguard book, he kept his word against raising a sword against Tully's & with Brienne they could cause some serious damage, plus isn't Zollo the Fat still alive? Jamie needs some payback. ok, just rambling
That's pretty much how I see it too Gordon. Tywin was just a total hater. He wants to put everything off on Tyrion because he's the easiest target and could never legitimately fight back. He never would have either, in my opinion, if his family hadn't already forced him out of social standing. This is, in my opinion, the worst Lannister move in the game thus far. Tyrion was an asset to their cause, now he's a problem. I think that's what Moqorro means when he says that he sees dragons in the flames, and Tyrion with a giants shadow.
He's already sent Aegon to mess with them, and manipulated the boy quite masterfully. If Tyrion hooks up with Dany...or anyone really, his enemies are toast. (Possibly quite literally)
I don't think Tyrion would fight Jaime in the end, I think they'd work it out. Especially if Tyrion killed Cersei. They'd be pretty even on that front then. Despite her, Jaime does actually love Cersei.
and Yah, I pretty much agree with you again Gordon. He was young, his father commanded him, he probably thought it was for the best or that she was just playing him. People are cynical about love, especially in a world where it has little if any value. Marriages were arranged for highborns, they're being marriageable often is the only valuable asset woman and deformed/disabled men have. Another example is even laid out with the Tyrell oldest brother, he's considered basically useless (which is undoubtedly not true) except for the fact he's the heir to Highgarden.
