State of Wonder
discussion
did anyone else catch this? SPOILER!
date
newest »
newest »
message 101:
by
T.D.
(new)
Mar 22, 2013 11:18PM
Yes, I thought so, too, Jennifer: that Marina would never reveal the truth of her child's conception.
reply
|
flag
Allyson wrote: "Am I the only one that got the impression at the very very end of the book that Marina was pregnant with Anders' child? The morning after they make love she awakes and despite previously planning ..."
I read the book last year but I do recall having a similar thought....
Through my book club discussion, we also figured that Marina got pregnant. I agree, that life with Mr. Fox is done. I also thought metaphor with the "suitcases" was interesting as well. In the beginning she lost all her luggage that one would think she has a lot of "baggage" to deal with. At the end of the book, her luggage and clarity in her life returns. Or, I seem to think that she is finally clear on what she wants. A new career in medicine. I think she returns to Amazon too.
Lynn wrote: "I was a little let down with the ending. I am not sure if I think the author ran out of steam or just was not sure how to tie all of the loose ends of the story. It seems as though she wrote the e..."I agree. I, too, thought the one-nighter was unnecessary and was disappointed that the author wrote it that way. I would have been more impressed if they slept through the night in each others' arms. To me, that is more intimate than a one night stand. It's been a long time since I read the book so I don't remember who initiated. Either way, Anders cheated on his wife. I can't imagine how devastated his wife would feel about the infidelity plus the baby that's on its way. smh
I thought this was a remarkable book, one of the best I have read in a long time, but only the idea of Marina being pregnant with Anders' child justified the one-nighter scene for me. It took a bit away from some aspects of the book--such as the idea of good husband/father Anders returning to the wife who had sensed that he was still alive. It becomes a lot less romantic with Anders having cheated on her.I think of Marina as being pregnant and also as likely to return to the Amazon. When she watches Anders with his family and feels as if she's not a part of the "world" before her anymore, to me, it's not just the Eckmans' suburban family world; it's the culture as a whole and doesn't, to me anyway, seem like a feeling that will pass in time.
I thought that the ending came at a good overall stopping point, however: it would have been too much to cover things like Marina and Mr. Fox, Marina's future career, and the fate of the malaria drug well.
Good discussion ... I think it is a tribute to Patchett that she wrote a book that could engender such intense discussion - the mark of a good author I think. Patchett does such a good job with character development but she doesn't wrap things up, letting readers debate what the characters lives will be like going forward.
There definitely is a lot to talk about in this book. I'm glad you enjoyed it. I found people that didn't like it too much. I thought of Marina going back to the Amazon too since her life changed dramatically at the end. She unleashed her demons of not being able to be a "baby doctor." She is now able to be what's she has always wanted to be. That is why she kept loosing her luggage - she had a lot of baggage until the end - she was able to face her life for what it was. I thought of Mr. Fox as "sly Fox" not to be trusted. I think she realized he was not for her.
Toni wrote: "There definitely is a lot to talk about in this book. I'm glad you enjoyed it. I found people that didn't like it too much. I thought of Marina going back to the Amazon too since her life changed d..."I believe you are right about the baggage. That never ocurred to me but makes sense. Marina was carrying a lot of baggage - we just did not know the extent of it when she first lost her baggage!
Linda wrote: "Toni wrote: "There definitely is a lot to talk about in this book. I'm glad you enjoyed it. I found people that didn't like it too much. I thought of Marina going back to the Amazon too since her l..."Thanks Linda, I absolutely love to read and trying to figure out what the author is trying to say with character choices (names, and situations) and locations, etc. I also love how this thread keeps evolving.
Yup. I thought about this, too, when I read the part about her not chewing the bark anymore.
Allyson wrote: "Am I the only one that got the impression at the very very end of the book that Marina was pregnant with Anders' child? The morning after they make love she awakes and despite previously planning ..."I kinda was thinking that way but totally missed the clue. Like another commenter, I was disappointed with the two adults not acting as such in the end. It was the only thing I disliked. Really, the NEXT day he was home with his family! Over all a super book...with a disappointing glitch in the ending.
As a wife, the probable pregnancy scares me too, but... If you read her other works, this is very "Patchett". I'm trying not to project Karen's problems which most certainly will result from their tryst, into my own life. In Bel Canto, some unusual relationships develop and result in an ending we could not have predicted. It is sudden and catches us unprepared and hopefully makes us think. I'm more interested in why she wrote the ending as it is than I am in analyzing my subjective, emotional response. which is why I've been lurking here... Yes, Reader50, she is an amazing writer.
Here is my analysis of her intentions, Patti, in case any of this may help. But this is sheer speculation:I was thinking that she wanted to keep the "happily-ever-after" impact of the improbable husband-wife reunion in check. She also wanted to remind the reader that Marina and others won't be turning away from what happened in the Amazon and going back to life quite so simply as some readers might be tempted to think.
With the improbable relationships here, in Bel Canto, and in The Patron Saint of Liars, I've always thought Patchett was conveying the belief that people's attractions and attachments arise far more from the situation they are in than they do from the proverbial "who they are." Perhaps also the sense that shaping moments between people lead to impulsive decisions that have permanent consequences, in some cases with good results, in others with bad ones.
I also feel as if she's trying to avoid the pure image of the romantic hero/heroine without taking the simple route that some authors do--making their characters a lot of tragic messes. The whole idea of Anders is quite romantic and idealistic: man goes nobly and daringly into the Amazon for his work; wife pines and never forsakes her attachment to her beloved husband; longtime loyal intellectual companion of lost man journeys into the Amazon; man turns up alive after all of that time; man is reunited with platonic academic cohort; the two journey home where the wife-who-never-gave-up-hope will be reunited with her noble husband. Patchett lets the fairy tale have its time-earned power over us--but only to a certain extent because Anders and Marina have sex, and Marina comes home carrying his child.
Patchett has a real flair for the romantic and idealistic, and I think she knows how to work it to its maximum effect without letting it lapse into cliche or turn into a cheap device.
Lucinda- loved your analysis.
Thanks, Jennifer. :)
I think the author went out of her way to make it obvious that Marina was pregnant with Anders's child. Throughout the book, we see the motif of the importance of the father relationship. First, Marina thinks back to her troubled relationship with her own father caused by her anti-malaria pill nightmares. Then, we see that she is in a relationship with a man old enough to be her father, the dynamics of which are sad and a bit strange at best. Finally, when Anders is saved, it's mostly due to the fact that Mrs. B mistakes him for a vision of her own father. I'm still not sure what the author was trying to say, but the structure of the book leads me to believe the reader is supposed to see Anders's act of becoming father to Marina's child as something that was meant to be. It seems to come full circle; Marina lost her relationship with her own father, and now she's going to have a child who will probably endure the exact same pain.
Yes, Indigo, sad but true. I couldn't help wondering why there were so many fatherless children (Marina included). Marina was clearly trying to compensate by having a relationship with a man who was not only older but also her superior. Classic. I think she realized that she would never be central in Mr. Fox's life any more than she was in her father's life. And as you point out, her own child may very well have the same experience. I like to see characters break such cycles. Oh well, at least Patchett gave Easter back to his family. And Easter's father (the cannibal) showed a great deal of affection for his child.
Yes, but it's time for anders story to end and hers to begin.
Joclyn wrote: "I also agree that Marina is pregnent with Anders' baby, considering what they had experienced, I don't blame them for their shared moments. I was dumbfounded when they had to leave Easter behind, t..."Maybe she doesn't care to be part of the experiment?
I had this book for two different book clubs, and I was the only one that figured out that she was pregnant--maybe a sequel?
I am finished the book today, and I was very happy to read this particular thread about Marina Singh's possible pregnancy. This was the first book I have ready by Ann Patchett so it was helpful to read other analyses put forth by other readers.I tend to agree that Marina is pregnant as a result of the one night of intimacy she shared with Anders. It becomes clear toward the end how wistful she is about having delayed having children. I think of the conversation she has with the 23 year old Barbara Bowender that it is not a good idea to put off having children.
While I think Marina's pregnancy is necessary to the author's story arc and development, I also think the adultery angle fits in with the pattern of the story. She herself is the result of an affair between an Indian graduate student and a young woman from Minnesota. When he finishes his studies he returns to his life in India where he eventually takes a "proper" wife and has children, leaving his American lover to raise their child. Dr. Swenson carried on an illicit affair with her mentor -- the man who taught her everything. In the short story that follows, we meet Dr. Swenson perhaps ten years before the events depicted in State of Wonder. In the short story we learn Dr. Rapp essentially seduced his very young student. She was 23 and he was 42 and married with children. In State of Wonder Dr. Nancy Saturn is several years younger than her husband. She judges Dr. Rapp harshly for his adulterous affair with Dr. Swenson. Her husband so admires Dr. Rapp that he essentially shruggs his shoulder at the affair and has no problem visiting Dr. Rapp's wife knowing full well that his mentor is cheating on his wife.
Initially, I thought it would have made more sense for Marina to be carrying an affair with a married Mr. Fox. He is widowed in this story, but the clandestine nature of the relationship feels like he is married. I suppose he is married to his job at Vogel. Anyway, I think one-time intimacy between Anders and Marina was not a fluke on the part of the author. Marina has more clarity about her life and her future at the end of the story, but the author insists in inserting multiple layers of moral ambiguity in Marina's life both personally and professionally.
Ethics and moral ambiguities play a big role in this story. We know from his letters to his wife and even indirectly from the other doctors in the jungle that Anders loves his wife. But even at the outset of the story Marina explains that she worked hard to allay any suspicion from Anders's wife Karen that she had designs on her husband. If it weren't for that tension, Marina would have been glad to have Karen as a close friend.
The circumstances under which Marina and Anders share intimacy, while plausible, seem a little contrived. Anders tells Marina to move over and make room for him so he can share the tiny cot with her. He doesn't say: "Is it okay if I share the cot with you, I feel out of sorts." They're talking and he says scoot over like it's normal to share the bed with her. I think Anders knew exactly what was going to happen. Marina throughout the book has been woefully unself aware so I can believe she thought they would just cuddle.
Anyway, I liked the book very much, flaws and icky moments notwithstanding. I don't get the sense that the author will write a sequel. But I would not be surprised to see a film based on the book. As sure as I am that she breaks with Mr. Fox both professionally and romantically, that she takes up her profession as a practicing medical doctor, and that she is pregnant with Anders's child, I am not sure if she returns to the Amazon. And in keeping with the general theme of moral ambiguity I suspect she would not deprive her child the right to know his or her father, thereby throwing some kind of wrench in the Eckman household. But then that is life full of messiness.
Remember, the morning she was leaving the Amazon, she had planned to visit the trees to bring some of the bark home with her, but decided not to--that's because she was pregnant, although she didn't know it yet. Once the native women were pregnant, they no longer visited the trees.Also, maybe the trees caused the women to crave being pregnant, so she got in the cot, because her body was demanding it.
Allyson wrote: "Am I the only one that got the impression at the very very end of the book that Marina was pregnant with Anders' child? The morning after they make love she awakes and despite previously planning ..."Yes, of course. Great novel.
I absolutely loved this book. The description of the characters, the evolution of Marina, her infatuation and desire for Mr. Fox despite the obvious problems (she was being so human), her memories of her father, her revulsion and adjustment to Brazil and then the jungle, her intelligence and then overwhelming guilt over the botched delivery that made her change careers, her feelings about Dr. Swenson (the whole Swenson character!), her relationship with Anders, his rescue and the need to sacrifice Easter, the very believable love making (it never would have happened under any other circumstance - yes it was wrong in theory but the overwhelmingness of the situation made it right, the trip home, the reunion scene with his family that showed his true heart, the very subtly implied preganancy (YES she was pregnant!), ahhhh.... I read it three times! It was like a rich cheesecake, to be savored slowly, all the descriptions and characters. BTW I recommend a second reading by listening to the audio - Hope Davis reads it and adds SO MUCH with her rendition! This book, to me, was a work of art. I would read a sequel, but I cannot imagine it would improve the story.
Absolutely agree- although I hadn't connected the detail about women losing interest in the bark when pregnant, her increased fertility was enough evidence for me. This all made for an interesting final twist, but why? Besides just an "ah hah" punch, what purpose does this revelation serve? Did anyone else find it a little meaningless, unless Patchett is gearing up for a sequel?
Good question - at first I thought that revelation indicated a sequel and that Patchett must have changed her mind, rendering the twist quite meaningless. Unless...perhaps Patchett's intent was to give us a clue to Marina's life in the future, and let us know that she would have a baby to fill the hole in her heart over the loss of Mr. Fox and realizing that at her age starting over meant she would never become a mother. And could there really be a sequel to this story? I cannot imagine one. Then again, my imagination is rather limited, which is why I don't write novels and can only have the pleasure of reading them.
I think much like her own up bringing, Marina will raise the child on her own but I think she will also return to the Amazon. Her love of Minnesota was an over arching theme but so was her commitment to duty and her mentor. In the end, I believe it will be that commitment that will lead her and her child back into the jungle. Maybe to her child, Minnesota will be like her India.
Allyson wrote: "Am I the only one that got the impression at the very very end of the book that Marina was pregnant with Anders' child? The morning after they make love she awakes and despite previously planning t..."Nah, I'd truly lost interest at that stage. The whole thing was ridiculous. Sorry.
I am positive that Mariana is pregnant with Anders' child. I also think there is a chance she has come back to Minnesota, and realizes she is too changed now. Personally, I think she will go back to the Amazon. I think she will go back to continue the research, to have her child in private, and to get Easter back again. I think her and Mr. Fox were done the moment he told her not to come back yet.
Eventually she might return to the US for good. For now though, there was too much left unfinished.
Well, for me it's all about Easter, my heart broke when Marina left him. so yes, please write a sequel.
how great would that be! Hope Patchett is listening...
I think that it’s an interesting idea that Marina got pregnant, but I can’t imagine that within one day of inception she would be repulsed by the bark of the tree. Correct me if I’m wrong about them leaving literally the following morning after having sex.If anything— I loved that the novel was incredibly complex. It dealt with the emotional complexities of people under extreme stress and survival mode. It played with the way that grief bends the way we look at one another.
While I certainly don’t applaud the couple for having sex, I empathize, understanding their trauma and relief.
Marina left her home on a quest to find Anders, braved a new environment, loneliness, language barriers, constant lies, an uncomfortable environment, and faced her demons by actually performing primitive surgeries. She gut a snake trying to kill a boy, and then gave the boy up after her life being threatened.
All of that was under the broad umbrella of her quest to find Anders.
Anders likewise was traumatized, having been separated from his only companions for months, living with a dangerous people, facing psychological anxiety from his environment, and the physical struggle of continuing to deal with fevers.
To finally experience a moment of finally breaking emotionally and physically expressing vulnerability with a person who has been through the same trauma— it seems not out of place at all.
How brilliant that the author has Marina watch Anders return to his family. Like the trauma of the Amazon, she has been left behind.
Marina’s story seemed to center more around grief, abandonment, and self discovery. It seems fitting that the author would leave the end open.
Marina is a woman who is finally independent of everyone. Anders, Mr. Fox, and Dr. Swenson no longer control her motives. She is free to return to life in Minnesota and free to return to the Amazon if she chooses.
I think that the pregnancy idea doesn’t lend anything to the story. I think the theme of abandonment— Marina being left by her father, Anders, Mr. Fox, and then Marina in turn leaving Easter, is more poignant on its own.
Marina, finally an independent, grappling with her desire for a child, her career decisions, and whatever is next on her own— that is a compelling ending in and of itself.
I’d be disappointed to find a sequel to this cruel, beautiful and realistic world with its loose, fly-away ends.
I enjoyed reading your empathetic and astute analysis Lauren, thank you! I love discussing books in this way. I agree with all that you said except the pregnancy part - my feeling is that while yes her aversion to the bark was awfully quick, since the powers of the bark do not exist in reality anything can be "possible" (ah the joy of fiction); in addition, the fact that she was pregnant was not spelled out, one had to read between the lines. (Apparently a lot of readers did not pick up on that part.)
And one can think of it this way - she lost all that she had (her father, her original career, Easter, Mr. Fox, even Anders in a way) but was in the end left with something new to live for, something she had wanted but thought it was too late for.
Gosh I loved Anders' reunion with his family. I have read this book 3 times - I found it so rich, haunting, and moving it was worth my time re-reading, but mostly I reread it to re-savor the vision of that reunion.
BTW it is my understanding that Ann Patchett does not have (or ever had) plans for a sequel.
I think Marina makes it very clear that they will never allude to the lovemaking again. The book says they kissed for the last time. The love-making was, in a sense, not really 'personal' - it was part of the intensity of discovery/adventure/reunion. The closeness they felt. But Anders wanted to go home to Karen. Marina says there is no place as beautiful as Minnesota. I think she is glad to be home. I think she forsook the trees not because she was pregnant - although that is a possibility, given the point the author made about it being an instantaneous phenomenon ie as soon as one gets pregnant the trees lose their allure - but because she had completed what she came here to do. Part of that was to gauge the progress of the research, which she had done, but a bigger part was to find Anders, because of Karen's burning faith motivating her somewhere inside, and once that was done, she was done with the Amazon. I don't think she wanted to replace Dr. Swenson, and that's another thing she 'completed' - her guilt-trip over cutting that baby years ago, and her fear and devotion to Dr. Swenson. I think the only unfinished item of business was Easter - what happened to him? Are we meant to think he will steal a canoe and return to the Lakashi and the lab station? I don't feel good leaving Easter with an experience of massive betrayal by his beloved Dr. Anders and Dr. Marina. That was the hardest thing for me.
Ok, I'm very late to this party having only read this book over the last couple of weeks! I agree that the scene with Anders was to set Marina up as being pregnant at the end. There were allusions to her longing for a child throughout the book.
But - what disturbed me was the fate of Easter. And yes, he may well have stolen a canoe and make it back to Dr Swenson as she confidently predicted but the Hummocca tribe knew where the Lakashi were because they had brought Easter to them before, were known to be very violent, and surely would have come and decimated the tribe in their fight to get Easter back if he did abscond? No one has mentioned this possibility on this thread that I have seen.
So I was left thinking that poor Easter was abandoned, confused and frightened, and, even if he did make it back, the Lakashi and Dr Swenson's work and lab would end up being attacked anyway. So all in all, I found it very disturbing end to the novel!
Like some others, I found the ending dissatisfying. I like to have loose ends tied up.
The other thing I didn't understand was why the malaria vaccine research was kept so secretive. I know that the research was only funded for the fertility drug but surely a company would be delighted to potentially develop an anti-malaria vaccine?
The 'State of Wonder' is the state I was left in at the end, wondering what was going to happen to all the characters!
Also late to the party, and I have concerns with the book but one thing that stuck out for me was 'the freezer'. How did they have a freezer in the jungle? What powered it? Was there a generator? No generator noise? When did they buy fuel?
but really, a freezer?
Did I miss something?
Yes! She was absolutely pregnant!!! She no longer craved the bark and couldn't understand WHY she would have wanted to take some home. She is 100% pregnant, but doesn't know it yet.
Niki wrote: "The end made me want to scream! Yes, I definately thought she was pregnant and the author ruined the whole book! I lost all respect for those two characters. And I didn't think it made sense. Here ..."I lost all respect for Anders and Marina, too. We don't have to give in to all of our urges. After what happened with Easter, I did not want Marina to have a child.
all discussions on this book
|
post a new topic
State of Wonder (other topics)
Books mentioned in this topic
Heart of Darkness (other topics)State of Wonder (other topics)
