State of Wonder
discussion
did anyone else catch this? SPOILER!
td wrote: "Allyson wrote: "Am I the only one that got the impression at the very very end of the book that Marina was pregnant with Anders' child? The morning after they make love she awakes and despite prev..."Responding to Janet, it is logical (not just speculation) that she is pregnant based on the information provided in the story. Whether she goes back to the Amazon is more speculative, although I don't see a lot of other options for her. I don't judge her harshly re: leaving Easter - I don't think she had other realistic options and the trade off that he is returned to his "real" family, while Anders is returned to his is balanced. We can also speculate that Easter has the know-how to find his way back.
Also, a quick comment to td: while getting pregnant the only time she had sex is convenient, it also is logical, given the fertility drug.
Also, a quick comment to td: while getting pregnant the only time she had sex is convenient, it also is logical, given the fertility drug.Yeah, true. Point taken.
Point taken td. I think you some good comments. I think I was frustrated that I felt there was so much up in the air that the story did not stand on it's own well. I do agree that Easter was quite an intelligent and independent fellow and could likely find his way back I just did not think he should have been on that particular journey. They knew what they were headed into and one of the striking segments of the book for me was the trauma of Easter upon being rendered captive. And he could only make it back if he survived and we were meant to wonder if he would.
I didn't catch the implication that she was pregnant. It doesn't say she was disgusted by the bark, but simply that she was "finished with the trees." I feel that Marina is done with this experience and wants to get back home. The trees represent all she has been through, and she is done with the adventure and the mixed feelings of finding Anders and losing Easter and ready to move on and deal with all of those emotions on her own terms by herself in Minnesota.Maybe I will be proven wrong if there is a sequel written :)
I thought it was pretty obvious that she was pregnant. I just found it really hard to care about any of those characters!
Carolyn wrote: "I also think she is pregnant but am surprised no one has mentioned the fact that the baby likely has a severe birth defect as Dr. Swenson's did. (Hers had "mermaid syndrome" which is usually fatal ..." Because a lot of us probably assumed that the baby's birth defect was due to Dr. Swenson's age, as Dr. Swenson herself repeatedly referred to her reconsidered ethics regarding maternal age and fertility implications, and also because birth defects are much more common in older mothers. Dr. Swenson was well and truly beyond her fertile years. The other women using the bark did not have such complications, so there is no reason to think that Marina would. Those are my thoughts on it, anyway. Cheers.
What struck me about that is how much had to be wrong with a mother who would put her dead baby in the freezer and keep it-birth defect or no. The characters in this book were horrible - and I don't mean that in a good way.
Am I alone in thinking this was a dreadful, tedious book with unbelievable characters? Who calls their lover Mr. consistently, and not as a joke? And what highly trained, well traveled sophisticated medical doctor packs their most important travel gear ( satellite mobile phone and toothbrush) into their checked luggage? What an idiot. It was annoying details like this that made me put this book down after two thirds of the way through. Why was this book on the top fiction for 2011 lists? All the glowing reviews made me second guess myself, but not enough to actually go back and read the rest of it. I was curious about the "disturbing" controversial ending I read about in the reviews so I googled this site.
After reading the discussions here about Marina's tryst with the undead Anders and Annika's frozen mermaid baby that she conceived with her long dead lover/ mentor Rapp, I think I made the right decision not to waste more time reading it.
Exactly! I agree with you Tishtosh. You writing "undead Anderson" is the most entertaining thing I can associate with this book:) I wonder about how this book became so highly rated also. It did not deserve it any more than Wild did and that was a real stinker. The publishing business I guess.
This book seemed to end rather abruptly, as if Patchett was told of a deadline she had to meet! There were a LOT of unanswered questions-I can only hope she writes a sequel.
Thanks, Janet. Glad to hear you got some entertainment from it! I don't know how the world of publishing operates, but maybe Patchett had to fulfill a book contract or crank out a certain number of books and just dashed this one off. Maybe she's got enough acclaim now as a writer that she can garner great reviews regardless of what she writes. Who knows? All I know is that I feel duped. The premise of this one seemed intriguing, but it was garbage. I really enjoyed Bel Canto, but haven't really gotten into any other Patchett books since. Don't think I'll waste time on any more of hers when there are so many other good ones out there.
Wild is a stinker? Oh no! I have it on my nightstand to read next. I bought it after reading the review of it in the NYT Book Review. Again, seduced by an intriguing story. This was way before Oprah "discovered" it.
I just heard Cheryl Strayed read from it on her book tour and found her very funny and engaging. Guess I be checking the discussion for that one next :)
This discussion lasted an hour in our book club! With some people not believing Marina was pregnant with Anders' baby and others saying she was. Our values and our view of life - whether we're realists or whether we try to shape the world as we would have it - plays into our decisions about whether she was pregnant or not. I think this was by design! Clever writer, that Anne. She also made it clear that Marina had no intention of disturbing the lives of Anders' family. Marina's relationship with Mr. Fox was a bad decision on her part - he wasn't a great guy. But she had Daddy issues and my feeling was that after her experience in the Amazon, she was a whole person.
Why did Dr. Swenson lie about Anders's being dead to his family?
Allyson wrote: "Am I the only one that got the impression at the very very end of the book that Marina was pregnant with Anders' child? The morning after they make love she awakes and despite previously planning ..."I thought the same thing. But I don't think that she will ask eithr of the 2 men in her life to help her with raising the child. This was an incredible book.
Tishtosh wrote: "Why did Dr. Swenson lie about Anders's being dead to his family?"She said it was because even though they never found his body, it was more likely that he was dead and she didn't want the family to be suffering. We can debate whether it was the right thing to do, but this was her reasoning.
Thanks to all you for your comments and questions! It has really helped me sort out my thoughts and questions as well.I agree that Marina is pregnant with Anders' child, and that she'll return to the Amazon sooner than later. I also believe a sequel is needed because there are so many open-ended questions and thoughts.
I also think Anders will return to the Amazon after Marina. He can't possibly be the same person either given the experience he has had in the Amazon! Hence, the lovemaking between Marina and Anders happens. I also think the lovemaking was believable and made sense to me given the extreme circumstances that these two characters had witnessed in the jungle.
The most disturbing part of the book for me was my feelings for Easter. How much was Easter used as a bartering tool for research? In the end, it made sense that he NEEDS to go back to his natural parents to find out his own personal truth and identity. Does he truly belong in one tribe? Or is Easter the future leader to bring tribes together and possibly a united front to protect the Amazon from corporations? In short, Easter needed to go back to find his personal path, as Anders needs to go back to his family to see if he truly belongs with them.
Then there is Karen and Mr. Fox. I actually think Karen is more suited for Mr. Fox like Marina is more suited for Anders. Yet, I know the devotion that Anders has to Karen and their boys (and vise-versa) can't be ignored either. In short, Anders is a good person, that is what is expected of him. But I'm left wondering if Anders truly is in love with Karen, or he simply just has deep affection for her like a brother to a sister.
Amber wrote: "Thanks to all you for your comments and questions! It has really helped me sort out my thoughts and questions as well.I agree that Marina is pregnant with Anders' child, and that she'll return to..."
Amber, I like your idea re: Easter eventually bringing the two cultures together.
I wish we could add stars to comments! I had no doubt of her pregnancy and glad you brought it up. Kudos, too, to those who commented on The Heart of Darkness reference.I'm new to Goodreads and if this is the typical level of discourse, what I treasure I've discovered.
td wrote: "Carolyn wrote: "I also think she is pregnant but am surprised no one has mentioned the fact that the baby likely has a severe birth defect as Dr. Swenson's did. (Hers had "mermaid syndrome" which i..."I agree that Marina will most likely have a normal pregnancy and we shouldn't forget that there are plenty of women at the age of 42 still having children.
We just got done discussing this book at our Book Club and we all agreed that we hated Annika. We also felt that Anders and Marina wouldn't return to the jungle. I personally didn't feel that Anders would desert his family;it was a one shot deal under extreme circumstances. But Marina won't go back to the research or Mr. Fox. He threw her and Anders "under the bus".
Oh, by the way, I had my 3rd child one month shy of being 41. She has kept me very young.
I can understand readers hating Annika; however, I found myself not hating her at all. I found myself understanding her point-of-view- about "hope" and felt somewhat sorry for her that she did kidnap Easter to fulfill a void inside of her due to the fact she was a mistress and never married. She became to be who she was in the story for a reason, which (in my opinion) her past dictated her psyche. Did I like the choices she made? No, she was selfish and narcissistic. As for Mr. Fox, I think he didn't purposely throw Anders and Marina under the bus. I believe he didn't fully realize the magnitude of the "Amazon Jungle." Does anyone? Let's not forget that majority of Americans aren't that world traveled--and ethnocentrism could factor into his decision making. He also still had to be the CEO of a global corporation--and please stock holders. In short, Mr. Fox came from Minnesota (snow and Purple Rain) to finally visiting the Amazon (tropical heat and anaconda). From what I understand, one has to visit the Amazon, to understand the meaning of the Amazon Jungle and its magnitude.
Kit wrote: "I'm hoping for a second novel that will fill in the gaps. I see her going back to the Amazon.And yes, I feel she was pregnant as well. I think she will continue the research and raise her child..."
Ann Patchett has never written a sequel and in interviews states she never will........I guess only time will tell...........
I agree...I think she was pregnant. Especially since they told her that her fertile period each month was already increased from 3 days to 13 days. At that rate, the chance was at least 50/50...I did a facepalm at that point in the book and was surprised they didn't address it.
Absolutely she was pregnant.
There are definitely allusions to Heart of Darkness here, but I am also trying to make sense of the parallels to Greek mythology. At the opera, Marina likens herself to Orpheus, seeking to pull Anders from the underworld. But in the myth, Orpheus fails. Does Easter become Eurydice? The name Easter implies both hope and sacrifice. Is good to come of sacrificing him to the Hummocca? Or because of the way Annick kept him all those years ago, is this really the tale of Persephone? Is she Hades? Is Easter, at the end, Persephone, returned home, but forever to live in two worlds? (For how can he forget his other home, all he has seen in Manaus?) This interpretation might be supported by how often the Bovenders are referred to as the guardians, keeping outsiders away from Annick (Cerberus guarding the underworld?).
What of the fact that the person who leads us to the gates of the underworld is named Milton? Is this because of the manner in which Paradise Lost portrays Satan? Is Annick that Satan? Or more likely Rapp, who leads his group of graduate students to the jungle, who is so arrogant as to plaster his name over everything he discovers.
Or is the link to Milton merely there to encourage us to recognize the loss of innocence the characters experience--Annick in keeping Easter in the first place, in lying about the research, about Anders's death, in producing and sacrificing her child as part of her experiment; Anders and Marina in giving up Easter to save themselves, in engaging in adultery?
There is so much to process, but mostly I am just anxious to understand why Easter's outcome is what it is. This analysis is an attempt to ease my heartache; I can just see the look on his face when he realized they were leaving him.
I didn't catch it! (Slaps self in head.)
I am just anxious to understand why Easter's outcome is what it is. This analysis is an attempt to ease my heartache; I can just see the look on his face when he realized they were leaving him. Ditto. I just hope that they eventually make him understand that they are his family, and they love him.
Although I didn't put two and two together with her disgust for the bark--makes sense, now that you mention it--I got the feeling during that love scene that it was implied that she gets pregnant with Anders' child. I think she and Mr. Fox were destined to break up from the outset; if not, why wouldn't Patchett tell us his first name? And why would Marina keep calling him "Mr. Fox" all the way through? The entire interaction between them when he finds her after all of his searching indicates a lack of commitment/magnetism between them.
I went back and reread the ending, and I don't think Marina is pregnant. I think her disgust for the trees is symbolic of her readiness to leave the jungle. On p. 352, it says, "By the time they boarded the plane, they had talked about everything except the thing they would never need to talk about." If she were pregnant, they would need to talk about it. I think they don't need to talk about it because they are not in love, and their one night does not jeopardize Anders' relationship with or love for Karen, because neither he nor Marina is interested in pursuing something with the other. It was a night of tenderness after she rescued the man she thought was dead, and he thought he'd never be found. It was an act of relief and connection: "...and that was when she kissed him, because their mouths were so close, because he was in fact alive, because she could not explain any of it...She loved him now, but only now. On this one night, after a day of the most exrraordinary circumstances that either of them would see for the rest of their lives, she kissed him to prove to herself that all of this had happened, and he kissed her because it was true, he was here...When they made love it was only to calm the fears that had endured. It was a physical act of kindness, a comfort, a sublime tenderness between friends...after all that had happened between them how could they not press themselves together, press through each other with their bodies to show how deeply, if only until the plane landed in Minneapolis, that they were intertwined" (349-350). That last line implies nothing continues beyond that one night, so how could there be a baby?
Because she didn't yet know there was a baby. The book specifically points out that the women react by being disgusted by the tree bark, as soon as they get pregnant.I think the book is giving you something to figure out on your own. If you miss it, fine, if you don't, you continue to ponder the lives of the characters after the book.
I see it, Beth. But I also see a lot that that seems to contradict that interpretation as well, so it doesn't look clear cut to me. Re: Patty's post number 83, I enjoyed your development of allusion in the novel; thanks for sharing that. Personally, I felt that Easter had to be left behind as a lesson about messing with native cultures. When Marina first meets Annick, they have a rather tense discussion about whether or not Annick should be attending to the Lakashi's medical needs. It's revealed that Anders had plans to take Easter back to Minnesota with him, and Annick calls Marina on her intenet to take Easter with her when she leaves. I felt like Easter's return to his family and tribe was to offer up the complexity of what might happen when outsiders become involved in an isolated, native culture. I didn't see it necessarily as punishment for anyone--certainly, Easter suffers more than anyone else-- more as a lesson that, as Annick tried to point out to Marina, these issues get very complex, and it's not as black and white as it might at first seem.
Allyson wrote: "Am I the only one that got the impression at the very very end of the book that Marina was pregnant with Anders' child? The morning after they make love she awakes and despite previously planning ..."Oh yes, I think that was clearly the intention. She is definitely pregnant!
Allyson wrote: "Am I the only one that got the impression at the very very end of the book that Marina was pregnant with Anders' child? The morning after they make love she awakes and despite previously planning ..."I caught it and think that and other issues may hint at a sequel. I hope so!
I agree on the pregnancy issue. I too was a little disappointed in this relationship at the end of the book. I do see a sequel/movie in the future. The Amazon is so enchanting and mysterious and no one of us knows for sure what exists there -- what could make a better movie?
Gosh, I totally missed that! Thank you for reading so carefully.
Allyson wrote: "Am I the only one that got the impression at the very very end of the book that Marina was pregnant with Anders' child? The morning after they make love she awakes and despite previously planning ..."
Allyson wrote: "Am I the only one that got the impression at the very very end of the book that Marina was pregnant with Anders' child? The morning after they make love she awakes and despite previously planning ..."
it was a revaltation in bookclub. Half the club thought she was pregnant and the other half was shocked they miss it.
Allyson wrote: "Am I the only one that got the impression at the very very end of the book that Marina was pregnant with Anders' child? The morning after they make love she awakes and despite previously planning ..."
it was a revaltation in bookclub. Half the club thought she was pregnant and the other half was shocked they miss it.
G.c. wrote: "I went back and reread the ending, and I don't think Marina is pregnant. I think her disgust for the trees is symbolic of her readiness to leave the jungle. On p. 352, it says, "By the time they bo..."I agree with you. She is ready to leave. She has regained her 'self' again.
I caught that too. You know I was liking this book up until she slept with Anders I just did not get that or see it coming. To me it did not really fit into the story. I can understand that having sex is life affirming but even still it did not sit well with me and left me with an unsatified memory of the book.
I figured she was pregnant also and that she was not only going to keep the baby, but love it. She might not stay in that community so Anders and his wife and children would never know. I think his wife and children were so happy and grateful to have him back that they wouldn't care (at least at first and later who knows). Her relationship with Mr.Foxx was way over.
I do believe also that Anne Patchett leads us to believe that Marina is pregnant by the novel's end. There are several hints, the main one being that she does not have the desire to go back to the bark. However, I also think that this also connects to the main theme of the novel, identifying with one's inherent culture, and also recognizing what makes other cultures unique. While not wanting the bark is a sign of pregnancy, I also believe that it is Marina's internal sense of leaving the jungle. It is a way for her to allow herself to become a part of her own culture. Marina cannot help but be influenced by her surroundings, and she understands the dangers of what happens when cultures are stripped of their unique qualities. I HIGHLY doubt that she and Anders have anything in their future. The episode was merely a way for him to begin assimilating after his own trauma. As far as Mr. Fox is concerned, he lacks the heart Marina gains, so no I do not believe that is in their future.
Kelley wrote: "I was left with a lot of unanswered questions after finishing the book, and was sure that Marina's pregnancy was one of them. I'm also thinking that a sequel in which she returns to the Amazon to ..."Totally felt the same way..in fact. I thought she was never going to leave the Amazon!
Also, never got the pregnancy thing! Was I missing something? I actually thought her distaste for the trees was her resignation that she was going home, and had to say good-bye to the rituals of the people there.
Diane wrote: "My book club debated this issue just last night. About half of us thought Marina was pregnant, but the other half didn't. We were also split on whether the one night with Anders was appropriate, o..."I finished this book last night and I was very disappointed with the ending. Is she pregnant? How does she adjust to civilization and will she return to the tribe? I invested a lot of time reading this book and it seems the author just ran out of steam and stopped writing without coming to conclusions as to many of the characters fate's. If the whole point of the story was about the development of the malaria drug surely we deserve to know the results and what becomes of the main character Dr. Singh.
I was a little let down with the ending. I am not sure if I think the author ran out of steam or just was not sure how to tie all of the loose ends of the story. It seems as though she wrote the ending to support a sequel.I do believe Marina was pregnant. I thought the one-nighter with Anders was not necessary to the storyline though and am curious as to why the author did it that way.
All in all, the author's description of the Amazon was enchanting and really caught my interest. Kudos to the author for the excellent writing.
You sound so nice and that is a good thing. I guess I feel that if they are going to take that many hours of my life they should at least make an effort. I kept waiting for the ends to tie together or...something. You mention on of the things - the one nighter between Marina and Anders and pregnancy - and to leave us for years awaiting a rationale? I don't like that. There is endless questions and rather than questions about the storyline they are questions about why this book full of the pointless and unresolved. There should have been some of that. This seems more like a chapter than a book. And I won't read her next.
I think Patchett wrote the book exactly as she intended to do, and did not "run out of steam." She's not a sloppy author. Also, I believe she left readers to infer her meanings from what she'd already given us. On the note of Anders and Marina, I think their love-making was absolutely essential to the story-line, because they had just undergone two life-changing events together, both of which affirmed their desire to be alive in the world, and left them somewhat traumatised: the reconnection with Anders, and the loss of Easter.
It is common for people who survive trauma together to bond in an exclusive way, at least temporarily, and the symbol of that bond between was the act of love-making. It is also common for people who survive trauma together to feel cut off from the rest of humanity. They either succumb to that alienation, or they try to reaffirm their connection to others through whatever means are available to them. In their context, Marina and Anders turned towards each other seeking warmth, tenderness, and connection. I thought the scene a fitting one.
I don't really understand why people get upset about this on some sanctimonious moral grounds. I think that this misses the much bigger picture of what these two people had been through and survived together, and how people in such circumstances might feel at the time. It seemed clear, too, that their bonding existed in its own special place and time, outside their ordinary lives, and that they both implicitly understood that.
It seemed obvious that neither Marina nor Anders were likely to make demands of each other once they returned to their daily lives; but I think that we were supposed to understand that Marina's pregnancy was completing a cycle begun by the deceased doctor. It brought the book to completion and tied up all those loose ends, or, that was what it left me with, anyway.
I agree with above commenter in total. Prachett is not a sloppy writer - things do not need to be tied up in bow to end. Look at all the discussion this book has caused because the ending leaves a lot for interpretation. Anders and Marianne's lovemaking was a spur of the moment, I am alive sort of thing, not the beginning or ending of anything. It was of itself and nothing more. That it created life was an accident, but one that Marianne will keep to herself.
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I think one of the things that makes a good novel is an author not forcing the characters to act in a way that necessarily pleases readers. The characters should change through experience, but the changes are not always what a reader might want, dream about, or think they would do themselves. We can get that in romance novels, after all. These two people had been through some extraordinary, but also traumatic, experiences together - that kind of bond is very powerful, and the fact that it should culminate in a fleeting but powerful physical act is not surprising. I don't believe it was "out of character" because people are multi-dimensional, and so should characters be; we often act in ways which surprise ourselves, and especially in times of extreme stress. I think the author did not set up the implication of pregnancy as something to be "caught." I think you'd have to be a rather inept reader to have missed that, as it was not subtle. It quite obvious that this was the impression we were meant to take away, and fitted into the overall narrative as a way of wrapping up the fertility plot line. Where the great doctor had failed, Marina would carry out her legacy. Having said that, I felt that it was a bit of a mis-step - all too neatly tied in a bow for Marina to have sex only once with Anders and "oh look! I'm pregnant!" I thought that was a bit beneath Patchett, in a way; having said that, her book, her story!