Tess of the D’Urbervilles
discussion
Who do you think is most responsible for the fate of Tess?
date
newest »
newest »
Then one has to remember that a real life person can also err and is full of human weaknesses. In real life, too Tess might have tried to reveal her truth to Angel because she did not want to cheat him and yet at the same time she would have wanted to marry him for love. And yet, she did tell him after all. She even tried to correct her mistake by giving him the option of divorce. She did feel guilty that she was the cause of so much pain to Angel. If human beings would not make mistakes or sway, where would there be any chance of change and evolution? And this is not just true of Hardy's time but also in a lot of countries / places / contexts of contemporary times.
And if human nature was so simple. there would be no place for tragedies in real life, leave alone fiction. :)
David wrote: "Society destroyed Tess with it's hypocrisy and double-standards. Sexism destroyed Tess."Totally agree about society and sexism. And it still happens in some societies today.
Robin wrote: "Both parents were culpable in this instance, they thought if Tess married "up" then she would be set for life. And they got caught up in maybe in some way being related to Durbeyville, to get his ..."Sexism, double standards, lack of opportunity, inequality, unfair social norms, cruelty, venality and so much more coalesced against Tess and others in her time and still does in ours. But not all of these were fatal to Tess. The most fatal hardship Tess faced was her ongoing love of Angel Clare. It's true in our time as well that loving the wrong person and being unable to stop will crush your spirit.
Annemarie wrote: ""And I couldn't agree more. As for fault, this novel is a critique of society, Alec, Angel, and her parents all had a part in her downfall.
Dave wrote "The most fatal hardship Tess faced was her ongoing love of Angel Clare. It's true in our time as well that loving the wrong person and being unable to stop will crush your spirit."True. But in literature as well as in real life love is considered to be blind Cupid. True love as Shakespeare said would be unblinding of Cupid. But how many are able to do so? If one succeeds in doing that then it is a triumph over basic instincts. :)
Richa wrote: "Dave wrote "The most fatal hardship Tess faced was her ongoing love of Angel Clare. It's true in our time as well that loving the wrong person and being unable to stop will crush your spirit."Tru..."
Yes, of course. If you're implying anyone is blaming Tess for loving Angel, you're reading something not stated It's simply obvious that loving Angel, especially as an idealized image, was a fatal mistake.
My problem is this: Dave made the same "mistake" of having a one night stand with a woman (or a fling) but he expected Tess to forgive him. But Tess being a woman could not be forgiven for her same mistake. this is gender bias or double standard which exists in many societies even today.
Richa wrote: "My problem is this: Dave made the same "mistake" of having a one night stand with a woman (or a fling) but he expected Tess to forgive him. But Tess being a woman could not be forgiven for her same..."My comments are intended to address the novel Tess. Your comments, as you describe them, reflect some mixture of feelings about the novel and injustices today. Perhaps another forum would be more suited to address today's problems than a forum on Tess, a mid-nineteenth century fictional character in the bygone Victorian era.
Again, I agree with you that Angel holds to a double standard and that people certainly do that today. It's wrong. It's unfair and it's hurtful. But on this forum I'm discussing the life of Tess.
Inddia today is still Victorian in its thought process. :) At least a major part of rural India.
does tess deserve her final punishment??
My opinion is that regardless of who pushed her in which direction (excluding the choices that she could readily make for herself), society was to blame. Society was the vulture that preyed on the impoverished which led her to Alec, societies belief that women could be claimed by men simply through sex led her to live in shame, and societies double standard cast her away from Angel Clair. We know better so we do better, society is culpable for molding the minds of even the freest of thinkers (Angel Clair) and as we can see in Tess's story, that can lead to great injustice.
Ruth wrote: "My opinion is that regardless of who pushed her in which direction (excluding the choices that she could readily make for herself), society was to blame. Society was the vulture that preyed on the ..."Excellent comment, Ruth.
I blame Angel Clare as he was such a self-righteous spineless hypocrite. I want to scream at Tess for going back to him after what he did to her. Thank goodness society has moved on from those days when women were second class citizens.
@Weird Kid very true, the parson was bone of contention. it also shows us influence of still dying clergy even that far time from renaissance... and people's blind beleif in them....
It's kind of hard to say. The book really tells us that Tess is going to suffer a fate that she doesn't deserve. She was 'born under a blighted star.' So the first thing I would say: Can you put the blame on fate?
If you don't put the blame on fate, then who would you blame? I would probably put the blame on Angel Clare. I have to agree that its also her parents and Alec, but the person who I think, driven her to the ultimate end is Angel.
If you don't put the blame on fate, then who would you blame? I would probably put the blame on Angel Clare. I have to agree that its also her parents and Alec, but the person who I think, driven her to the ultimate end is Angel.
David wrote: "Society destroyed Tess with it's hypocrisy and double-standards. Sexism destroyed Tess."Agree and her family too...
Both Alec and Angel, are equally responsible for the misfortune of Tess. Alec for taking advantage of the innocence and ignorance of Tess times and force. But I also blame Angel by judge when he also made his own mistakes. I think that in this novel there are no heroes, unlike other English novels like Austen, the Brontë sisters or Gaskell. Maybe that's why many people like Thomas Hardy.
I have to agree that her final fate is the result of Angel Clare's disgusting hypocrisy. However, if society was not the way it was, Tess would have been more able to see that Angel and Alec were two sides of the same sexist coin.
Alec might have violated her body and reputation but Angel violated her mind and sense of self-worth. Woman had no choice in a society where you must be either a whore (selfish, available to all, because it's 'natural' or because women are slaves to their animal self') or a mother (pure & holy with no thought or emotions that are self-concerned or heaven forbid, sexual or violent). Both roles are damaging and that's, I think, the beauty of this book.
Alec might have violated her body and reputation but Angel violated her mind and sense of self-worth. Woman had no choice in a society where you must be either a whore (selfish, available to all, because it's 'natural' or because women are slaves to their animal self') or a mother (pure & holy with no thought or emotions that are self-concerned or heaven forbid, sexual or violent). Both roles are damaging and that's, I think, the beauty of this book.
David wrote: "But this is a naturalistic novel. In naturalism either society or fate is the antagonist. I do love the last lines: "And the gods having had their sport with Tess...."I think Hardy is using gods in..."I think I have a different version. I have no clue how many editions were, I got mine in the Kindle shop. Mine says "'Justice' was done, and the President of the Immortals, in Aeschylean phrase, had ended his sport with Tess.".
I wonder which other differences there are in my version and if they are significant somehow! Does anyone have any information?
There's a book addressed to the questions you raise, "The Shaping of Tess of the d'Urbervilles" by J.T. Laird, Oxford Press, 1975. For those of us interested in Hardy's meanings on various points in the novel, this book can be quite helpful.
sad story, i preferred far from the madding crowd
Dave wrote: "There's a book addressed to the questions you raise, "The Shaping of Tess of the d'Urbervilles" by J.T. Laird, Oxford Press, 1975. For those of us interested in Hardy's meanings on various points i..."Thank you. I wanted to know if I have the right edition or if I should go looking for another book, because that phrase, in my book, is totally different from what you quoted.
Laura wrote: "Dave wrote: "There's a book addressed to the questions you raise, "The Shaping of Tess of the d'Urbervilles" by J.T. Laird, Oxford Press, 1975. For those of us interested in Hardy's meanings on var..."David is another forum member whose comments are generally more appreciated than mine. Dave, me, is the fellow that recommended the book, which helped me understand the novel and Hardy's meanings. David and I both read the Kindle version, and I vaguely recall that the ending phrase you refer to is not the same in all editions.
Oops, I got confused, sorry!
All men that crossed Tess's path contributed in some level to her tragic fate. First, her father, then Alec and Angel was the worst because, in my opinion, he was the most 'enlightened' and therefore should have known better than to dismiss her for being deflowered prior to their wedding.
Carrie wrote: "All men that crossed Tess's path contributed in some level to her tragic fate. First, her father, then Alec and Angel was the worst because, in my opinion, he was the most 'enlightened' and therefo..."I actually blamed Tess for that more so than Angel because it was wrong of her to not tell him until after they were married.
Mochaspresso wrote: "Carrie wrote: "All men that crossed Tess's path contributed in some level to her tragic fate. First, her father, then Alec and Angel was the worst because, in my opinion, he was the most 'enlighten..."She did try to tell him through a letter but then she realised it had been stucked below the entrance rug, so she took it as a sign that she shouldn't tell him. Nevertheless, she did tell him in the end - he never would have found by himself. He was too idealistic, living within himself and his high standards.
Carrie wrote: "All men that crossed Tess's path ..."Not only the men... Her mother had quite a role in it, too.
Agreed. But her mother wanted her married to Alec, while her father would rather 'sell her' anyway.
Carrie wrote: "Agreed. But her mother wanted her married to Alec, while her father would rather 'sell her' anyway."John, Tess' father, talked about selling his d'Urberville title to Alec, who he never met, but that didn't suggest to me he meant to sell Tess. The conspirator in placing Tess with Alec was Joan who saw sending Tess to Trantridge Tess' big opportunity as well as an opportunity for the Derbyfield family. And even then, soon after Tess was gone, she had doubts about Alec's character and the plot to put Tess with him.
The sense one might gather is that while John left the match up to Joan and Joan allowed her hopes for Tess' social advancement to overcome her motherly judgment, these parents faulted in their judgment rather than their intent. Tess was dear to them both.
Ranish wrote: "does tess deserve her final punishment??"Well, she's a murderer after all.
Dave wrote: "Carrie wrote: "Agreed. But her mother wanted her married to Alec, while her father would rather 'sell her' anyway."John, Tess' father, talked about selling his d'Urberville title to Alec, who he ..."
She was dear to them both, but also regarded as an useful pawn to their desired social rise and economic increase. You can't blame them though, because it was a sacrifice required to bring advantage to both parents and all siblings - therefore, one individual must be condemned to save all remaining folks.
Listen, I think this is the best post where I can tell this story, and it is a real one which has happened less than 10 years ago.There was a girl of 19 years old who was in the University and was very kind to everyone even with the people who disliked her, but she wanted to be friend of everyone.
The first semesters were fine, but in the 4th semester things started to get wrong: peers bullying her, arrogant teachers who could take advantage of female students if there was a chance, and bad things were spread about her even if they were not true.
At that moment, there was a guy of the same age of her, whom she met before thinking he was a nice guy, but little did she know about his real intentions: making her his girlfriend to have sexual excitement (or a friend with benefits). Unfortunately, he was part of the most intelligent students in the school and UNFORTUNATELY he won her mother's trust possibly by acting as "a good boy" with her and also by prying in her insecurities, leading her to assume that he could be a good man for her daughter (and also the mother felt that she could become a good friend who could help to the family as well, like the son she always wanted).
The girl started to slowly knew his intentions when he took advantage of the goodbyes by kissing her neck and when he asked her to be his girlfriend and she said no. The cataclysm came when the guy, desperate of not seeing her during summer vacations, wanted to force a kiss, she didn't allowed it, and she came scared to her home, but her mother only laughed thinking that it was normal and that happened because her daughter wasn't used to a closer contact to men and that they only needed more time to know each other.
The daughter should have given him the cold shoulder, rejected him and stopped his friendship with him, but because she was a "good daughter" and because of her mother "demands" and because she trusted her, she felt forced to be with him.
During that time, he continued slowly gaining her mother's trust to the point that she demanded to her daughter to be nice to him and to go out with him, even deceiving her in how to "disillusioned him" when in fact they were only strategies to making him more infatuated to her, she didn't want it, she hated it, and as time passes, she got emotionally traumatized and a grudge (instead of a baby).
After two or three years, she escaped from him, but with emotional scars inflicted by both him and her mother (fortunately, there was no baby). At first she felt guilty for allowing them their way in her life, but then she blamed them, her mother specially, when she knew that he continued contacting her mother for a time to ask for her and her mother still talked him nicely when she had to be a good mother and shout him and tell him that she would call the police if he still was looking for her.
As you can see, even in our times has happened the same as Tess, and even people disguise it as that the girl accepted his advantages rather than he forced her, or when people saw them together, they thought that they were dating for real and they were another pair of lovebirds, specially when he was giving her presents and acted in a "sweet way" with her, while she showed him contempt, making her the "bad" one.
In the story, if you want to look for the culprit, there are many options:
-The stalker, he forced and manipulated things as he wanted to be. He disguised and tried to hide his real true intentions and his sexual desires with "true love and care" to the girl.
-The mother, she let herself "seduced" by the guy with the promises of giving a better life not only to her daughter but also to the family and become her "daughter's guardian, provider and protector", making her to oblige her daughter to treat him and be nice with him and accept his gifts, invitations and advances.
- The daughter, for letting him and her mother to guide her life at some point and allowing them to enter, she gave him power because she wanted to show to her mother that she was a good and selfless daughter and woman, and because she had the belief that "parents know best (in this case, her mother)", trusting her mother's advice and opinions when she had to follow her intuition and rejecting him earlier. Also she though about the karma.
The people around them was thinking that they were a couple without knowing the truth, and if the girl acted "bad" towards him in front of everybody, she was going to be seen by everyone (including by her mother) as the "bad one" and the guy "as the victim" when it was exactly the opposite. Thus, making the guy stronger.
all discussions on this book
|
post a new topic
Can anyone change destiny? Achilles knew he was born to die a glorious death on a battle field. he knew about Achilles' heel. He had the choice not to go for the w..."
Richa, when you ask "Can anyone change destiny?, in the context of your post on a Tess forum you seem to be asking whether one believes Tess' fate is either determined or subject to her will. Since Tess was a fictional character and we know Hardy felt she had to die, the answer is that her fate was determined. But, if you ask whether a real life character with Tess' genes and experience might've altered the course of her life with different decisions, my answer would be yes. Given who she was, she could have altered some decisions, but not all.
Specifically, Tess had to reveal her past to Angel not later than the wedding night, but she could have found a way to inform Angel of her past weeks earlier. In that case Angel wouldn't have married her and she might've ended up a long-term mistress to Alec, albeit not one tortured by thinking she'd wronged Angel and in pain from her marital separation.
Contemporary readers view a protagonist's happiness as a measure of how competent the character is in the art of living. We tend not to realize this is a modern view not pervasive in Hardy's time. Hardy felt that unhappiness was actually necessary to a person's ethical evolution, i.e. becoming a better, a more advanced person.