Who reads independent authors? Why or why not?

[Patrick]

Katherine wrote: "I urge everyone to SAMPLE SAMPLE SAMPLE. It's so easy! I LOVE sampling. You will find the gold if you are willing to do a little digging for it. And usually, it's dirt cheap!"

Robert, Anthony, and Katherine -

As Anne-Mhairi said above, "Hear, hear!"

[Patrick]

Anne-Mhairi wrote: "I'm loving this thread. It's great to see that a lot of people are willing to take chances on indie authors."

And by "above," I meant above on the prior page (and not immediately above, where Anne-Mhairi herself was adding a new comment at the same time I was...)!

[Mhairi]

Hahahahahahahaha Great minds, my friend, great minds :D

[Dee]

the only potential problem with samples I have seen or heard of is that authors know the sample is roughly 10% and so they edit the ass out of that section to the detriment of the rest of the book...I haven't seen it specifically, but heard some people on amazon mentioning it

[Christina]

@ Dee:

That's a shame if authors are doing that. I've never heard of it, but I suppose it's possible. I had my entire book edited after each draft and then proofread. I opted to let Smashwords sample 30% of my book, but Amazon doesn't have you specify how much they can sample, which is unfortunate, b/c I'd like to be able to end it at tense moment, lol.

[Mhairi]

Dee wrote: "the only potential problem with samples I have seen or heard of is that authors know the sample is roughly 10% and so they edit the ass out of that section to the detriment of the rest of the book...."

There are always going to be some stupid authors who try to get round the system. Hopefully between sampling and reviews, the good stuff will rise to the top.

For the record, those authors I mentioned above bug the hell out of me. They mess it up for everyone else. Ugh.

[Ralph Gallagher]

Cindy wrote: "There was this one novel I was reading for a review and I found the same mistake twice in the same paragraph.

The word 'lightening' should have been 'lightning', and so I told the author about it..."

This is why most publishing houses will use multiple editors on a project. When three different editors read over the manuscript before it goes into production, you have a much higher chance of catching the majority of any mistakes. The standard that seems to work the best is having a content/copy editor that does the bulk of the work, then a line editor that goes over it line by line looking for mistakes, and finally a proofreader that goes over it looking for anything the other two have missed.

Most of the time they're not going to catch every single mistake, but they'll get the vast majority of them.

[Anthony]

I wonder if we're entering an era in which spelling will be more like it was in the 1700s — a bit looser and more idiosyncratic. It's unquestionably true that it's best to have an editor/line editor/proofreader go over a manuscript. In the ideal world you'd throw in a couple more proofreaders to boot. But in the world of independently published fiction, where the final product costs $2.99, there probably won't be multiple levels of proofreading. We may have to tolerate some creative leaps at spelling, or pay more for a manuscript run through a traditional publishing process.

[Patrick]

Anthony wrote: "I wonder if we're entering an era in which spelling will be more like it was in the 1700s — a bit looser and more idiosyncratic...."

Possibly true, especially with texting as a growing communication. But that step back hopefully will be met with a couple steps forward at some point - in this case, probably through a grammar/spell check that actually manages to fulfill its purpose even within the context of creative works.

(I don't know about anyone else, but I have to turn the grammar check off when I'm working in Word, because it interprets everything by computer logic, which often runs right up against a writing voice.)

[Mhairi]

I ignore the grammar check. I should probably turn it off, but luckily it doesn't come up that often, mainly just for sentence fragments which I use a LOT. Like you say, that's just the voice I write in.

[Helen]

I abhor spelling mistakes. I find grammar and spell-checkers miss things. Can't indy-publishers get volunteer readers to proof-read?

[Mhairi]

Helen wrote: "I abhor spelling mistakes. I find grammar and spell-checkers miss things. Can't indy-publishers get volunteer readers to proof-read?"

Yes, but they don't necessarily take the required care and attention. Think about it: if traditional publishers with four or five or six pairs of eyes can still miss errors, how much more likely is it that errors get through for indies, whose beta readers aren't being paid to find the mistakes?

Not meaning to excuse errors in indie works - I hate them too - just presenting the other side of the story. It's a rare work that is completely typo-free, regardless of whether it's indie or trad.

[Christina]

Well, after multiple editing passes by someone other than me, (that I paid good money for) beta readers and myself still found over 50 mistakes. Then I hired someone to format my novel for Smashwords and unfortunately he made several mistakes also. I laid out a decent sum to make things perfect and yet I still had to fix things.
So far, however, no reviews have mentioned one word about any issues with grammar or spelling, so it was worth it.

[Mhairi]

Christina wrote: "Well, after multiple editing passes by someone other than me, (that I paid good money for) beta readers and myself still found over 50 mistakes. Then I hired someone to format my novel for Smashwor..."

Will you pay for those services again for your next novel?

[Michelle]

You have to be very careful about whom you pay to edit your book, that's for sure!

Isn't this another way of saying that reading habits have changed and writers have been forced to adapt their writing to suit readers?

I think that's true. I believe that, at times, the mainstream publishing industry is more likely to sign on a writer who they think is marketable rather than one who is 'good'. (Although 'good' is obviously subjective.)

[Patrick]

Michelle wrote: "I think that's true. I believe that, at times, the mainstream publishing industry is more likely to sign on a writer who they think is marketable rather than one who is 'good'...."

I agree. And it isn't just a matter of editing and proofing; it can also extend to characters, story, structure - the key components of the book's telling. Marketability can win out over all those, and while I "get" that in a sense, it's sad at the same time.

[Elizabeth]

Hi everyone, what an interesting discussion this is.

Writing is an art and like any art, we learn as we work towards perfection, but perfection can never be fully achieved, even with a ruthless edit.
There will always be something we could have done better, something new to learn and master.

The most important part of any art is the heart and soul of the artist. How sad then that commercial books are often so heavily edited that the artists are barely recognisable in their work.

The passion and raw talent of a new author is a gem to cherish and encourage. If we are gentle and patient, honest and kind with our criticism we give these artists a chance to learn their craft. Encourage and support this brave new world where you, the reader, will have the chance to one day feast on stories the likes of which the literary world has never seen before.

Wishing you all a wonderful day.

[Mhairi]

Paul wrote: "I've just been asked to read an independently published novel by a friend who has paid for proofreading services and professional editing. I'm still on chapter one and have advised him he wasted hi..."

Ouch. That had to sting.

[Helen]

I don't mind helping someone proof read - although wouldn't want to do it too often, too much like marking. I'm a teacher.

[Mhairi]

Paul wrote: "Ordinarily it might but we have been friends for some time. It annoys me somewhat that he asked for and then ignored my advise regarding proofing etc. Sadly, or perhaps happily, for some readers th..."

I actually meant that he must have been stung to have wasted his money. But people are like that - they have a question that they want a particular answer to and they will go around asking anyone until they get the answer they want. ::shrug:: 'Tis the way of the world...

[Mhairi]

Helen wrote: "I don't mind helping someone proof read - although wouldn't want to do it too often, too much like marking. I'm a teacher."

It's worse than marking. An 80000 word book is much worse than even a 3000 word essay. On the other hand, if the story is good you get to read it before anyone else, so there are benefits :)

[Christina]

Anne Mhairi:

Yes, I'll pay for those services again, just not from the same people. I think editing and proofreading are invaluable; I just got two people who didn't deliver as promised. And, I will realize that paying for those services does not mean I am free of doing a line by line edit myself.

[Mhairi]

Good to know :)

[JMZ]

Since getting a Kindle I've only read about three self-published books and I have found them quite enjoyable. I'll probably read more once my reading list gets smaller but for now it's a every now and then thing.

[Vicki]

I absolutely do read a ton of independent authors, particularly if they're works written early in the writer's career. Those tend to be the most original and imaginative and are written with great enthusiasm and passion for the story. I love that. :)

[Patrick]

Nena wrote: "Hi, I am new here. So glad I found this group! I just got a new 3rd gen. kindle with wireless as a gift and I love it. Of course, it's still in its development stage and I can see future improvem..."

Nena -

First, welcome to the group. It's a great one, and I hope you find it interesting and valuable. I have, and I've only been here for a month!

I've found this particular discussion especially interesting, from the first post to your latest one. And I think you've condensed it down to a key point - editing is important and can be a distraction when it's not done well, but in the end we all basically want good reads. Great story and characters and rhythm all play into that, and how a story is written and edited into its whole does, too. Price even can matter, since we may be willing to take a risk for 99 cents, when we wouldn't take it for $14.99.

But the key in the end is how you react when you pick a book up and read a few words, and then a few more, and then have that decision in your hands....

Stop. Or be drawn in.

[Shawn]

I have read a few. The only thing that I can say is that I am not always impressed with the spelling or grammar. I am not great at grammar part myself, but I am also not writing a book ;).

I do like to read them, because they have new ideas and concepts... just wish they'd use spell check :)

[Kindle]

I've had my kindle for six months and try to read ebooks that are not available in paper form (I do still like the feel of paper in my hands). Thy can be really variable but my favourite one this summer is by far is called Through an Icon's Eyes by Grace Conti. I think its only just published and the author says she is giving royalties to Breast Cancer Research which is a bonus. Literary Fiction, historically set and a bit of magical realism, well written and compelling. Would be interesting to know why its not in paper form.

[Patrick]

Nena wrote: "Patrick, I just saw something over on Amazon Kindle that has been haunting me since it happened. Over the weekend, a book was offered (this was a post apocalyptic thriller broken up into three sect..."

Sort of a loss leader idea there, huh - give people part for free, then hit them with a cost on the rest! I'm sure many or all of us can't imagine doing something like that, but it also speaks to part of that "99 cents versus 14.99" idea - the market.

The author must have decided, maybe based on numbers, that he/she could now demand a high price for what was previously free. So they changed it.

And again, people will then decide they want it enough to buy it, or they'll walk away (or in this case, they'll in effect complain).

The indie ebook world is still new and fresh enough that the rules (either established or unspoken) and the reactions aren't too sharply defined yet....

[Robert]

I love reading in indie writers. Of course it's going to be hit and miss but you use reviews and recommendations to find the good stuff just like with anything else. The good ones have fresh ideas and no one holding them back!

Here are some of my favorites: Liquid Fear: A Mystery Thriller, The Red Church, and They Hunger by Scott Nicholson, Blood Mountain by J.T. Warren. Both of these guys are very talented writers!

[Readingcureall]

I love reading new authors when I find them on my kindle. Some of the kid ones are the pits I have found I have to admit. Hint if there are and writers reading. I need some better kindle kid books. lol I have read books where things were not lined up just right or I caught some spelling things but I just try to over look it and think wow if it were not for this time we were in I would not be able to read this story it would be in a box int this persons room being mailed around to the ole powerful Oz publisher. So if I enjoy the story I do tend to over look some of the flaws . The fact is there are some great stories out there that we are actually now getting to see. I found 1 through one of these groups . I found a few through kindle searches . The best is when they are free of course. lol

[Blaise]

I primarily read Indie authors since I bought my Kindle. As a matter of confession, I actually bought my Kindle so I could read more Indie books. They are harder to obtain in print form. There are typographical errors and spelling can be an issue, but to be honest if you've read any book from the big publisher in the last decade you could say the same for them as well.

One of the biggest draws to the Indie market for me since finding Goodreads is being able to connect on a certain level with the authors. I'm a book geek, so meeting the creator of some of my favorite characters is like a virtual Comic-Con 24/7. As a matter of fact, I have found a new favorite author who happens to be an Indie this way, Scott Nicholson. He knocked Neil Gaiman out of the top spot, if that says anything.

[Patrick]

Nena wrote: "Patrick, well, all in all, I have discovered some really talented indie writers since getting my Kindle and I can envision some of them hitting the best sellers list in the future..."

The writing is what it's all about, so you've hit the ideal if you're finding what you want (especially if it's inexpensive!).

And I tend to agree on the business comment. I do love a great, hardcover book that I can sink my teeth into. And I love the book signings and publication deals and readings and all that comes with those things.

But I also love that we've found ourselves in a place where other voices can come out, too.

[Patrick]

Blaise wrote: "I primarily read Indie authors since I bought my Kindle. As a matter of confession, I actually bought my Kindle so I could read more Indie books. They are harder to obtain in print form...."

"A matter of confession"...? I think buying a Kindle or other e-reader, so you can read more indies, makes perfect sense! Even better that you've found a new favorite among them.

[Patrick]

Since so much of this discussion has focused on the quality of indie books, I thought I'd mention something I posted in the Kindle Book Related Banter discussion, too.

As I'm sure people know, Amazon announced on Wednesday that they were starting a Kindle Indie Bookstore, which they describe as including "top selling, popular and high quality books."

You can't seek selection. Instead, Amazon will select what's featured, using a "combination of automated techniques and editorial activities to select books based on criteria that we believe will best serve the interest of Kindle readers."

Here's the KDP FAQ link on this: https://kdp.amazon.com/self-publishin...

For our topic here, it's the specific mention of "high quality" that intrigues me. It feels like they recognize a potential issue with some indie books and want to find a way to address it.

The store's address is www.amazon.com/kindleindiebooks