SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion
Group Reads Discussions 2011
>
"Homeland" finished reading (allowed spoilers)
date
newest »
newest »
message 1:
by
Kevin
(last edited Jul 05, 2011 04:44PM)
(new)
Jul 05, 2011 04:40PM
Just want to know what everyone who finish the book thinks about the book.
reply
|
flag
I have to agree. Very addictive. I started with Homeland when I first read the early books since it was first in the timeline (but fourth released) and it really drew me into the works of Salvatore, and back into fantasy which I had left for awhile. These early books are my favorite of the whole series.
All I can say is that his older Drizzt books are much better than most of his newer Drizzt books.
I've been reticent to talk too much about Homeland because, well, I didn't really enjoy it. But since the discussion board is pretty quiet, I might as well get the ball rolling, regardless of any negativity I wanted to keep bottled up.Am I the only one who felt that Homeland was extremely empty? Beyond the hack-and-slash and the D&D elements, there just wasn't any substance there, in my opinion.
What's frustrating is that I know that there's a good story and writer in there somewhere, but due to the genre-restrictions imposed on Salvatore, he's forced into writing something that's a little dumbed down. This subject matter is rife with interesting concepts and philosophical discussions, but we don't get the chance to delve into it.
There isn't any grey in Menzoberranzan; it's just black and white. Drizzt is inherently good, and therefore we're robbed of any ponderous questions on morality. Drizzt should have discovered his own morality, rather than just "feeling" that things around him were wrong.
**And, for the record, I'm not opposed to D&D fiction. I've been a lifelong Dragonlance fan. So don't take this as me "looking down" on the material.**
Rick wrote: "I've been reticent to talk too much about Homeland because, well, I didn't really enjoy it. But since the discussion board is pretty quiet, I might as well get the ball rolling, regardless of any n..."I know what you mean, but I still think Drizzt is better than Dragonlance.
It's really unfair of me to judge based on just one book (given that I've read probably 12-15 Dragonlance novels), but I think Raistlin is orders of magnitude more complicated/interesting than Drizzt.
I have only read the basic classic 7 novels by Weis and Hickman, not the ones that were published this century and found nothing special about them at all, they were like most fantasies that I have read from the 80s.
Yeah I haven't read the the post-Dragons of a Summer Flame books either. Been meaning to for a long time, but I just haven't.Anyone read the newer Dragons Of... books? How do they stack up?
I never read any of those either or Dragonlance book by other authors, but I hear from many people that Weis's Deathgate novels are great, and I have the original darksword trilogy, but have not read them.
I've had the Deathgate Cycle on my To-Be-Read list for a long time, but haven't gotten to it. Might be a good book club suggestion, eh?
Rick wrote: "Yeah I haven't read the the post-Dragons of a Summer Flame books either. Been meaning to for a long time, but I just haven't.Anyone read the newer Dragons Of... books? How do they stack up?"
I liked "Dragons of the Dwarven Depths" pretty well, but I never read the other two. :)
I also didn't find this book particularly interesting. The Drizzt character was dry and never really felt developed; at least until the final confrontation with his family.The one thing I really did enjoy about this book was the family politics and the matriarchal society. It was refreshing to read a fantasy book that gave so much power to female characters. This may be common place in Forgotten Realms, for all I know, but it was still interesting to read.
However it did have the effect that most of the male characters never felt like they were capable of much (e.g. Zak's final scene was a little underwhelming). I may pick up the second in the series but I'm certainly in no rush to do so.
From those who have read the following books, do the characters develop more and do we get to see more of the politics of the Drow, or are they more traditional adventuring fare?
R.A. Salvatore said that he based the drow matriarchal society on the Godfathers.
I thought the way Salvatore set up the conflict between Drizzt and Zak was fabulous. It added tension to the story that would otherwise not have been there. I didn't feel too concerned who won the house wars, but I cared how Zak and Drizzt resolved their conflict. Like other commenters I enjoyed the portrayal of the matriarchal society. The women were strong but oppressive (without being dominatrixes) and the men were strong too, but just didn't have the upper hand. What's interesting is why they didn't. It was to do with establishment, status and culture rather than physical strength or intellect. An interesting comment on our own society.
I was glad Drizzt got to keep the big cat. Good team :-)
This is total tripe. I'm aware this series has admirers who see - what? There is no way a society that promotes eating its young would survive centuries. I can see this as a novella describing an end of the world dystopia, but instead there is this crazy pointless suicidal Lemming civilization. I love silly, but I have no time for stupid story. Children are raised to murder parents if they can arrange it? Parents have children so they can have the pleasure to humiliate and kill them? Houses of families are encouraged to kill off utterly all the other families? Slaves and leaders are to be hated, tortured and murdered in time? This is nihilism and anarchy and self destruction. No society could survive centuries of this. No way there'd be "families" after a few decades. No adults would permit living children to exist if they knew every one born had an evil nature and as babies are already plotting the murder of their parents. On top of that magic? And thermal night vision? Despite the slight political facade overlaid on the "plots" this society couldn't survive one week. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but this series is garbage. My disgust is totally about the book. Please don't anyone take my comments personally. I get it other people love the series. To me, there is nothing coherent here. If there is a commentary within on society, war, love, hate, courage, family, honor, education, religion, history, psychology - I'll be damned if I can pick out any logical, understandable, revealing insights into their culture that mirror ourselves, unless it's an insane asylum where the inmates have taken over. This book is either a thematic mess or a sexist rant or a scream about evil nature or all of the former.
April wrote: "This is nihilism and anarchy and self destruction. No society could survive centuries of this. No way there'd be "families" after a few decades. No adults would permit living children to exist if they knew every one born had an evil nature and as babies are already plotting the murder of their parents."*Slow clap*
*louder clap*I read this book a long time ago and I don't remember if I finished it. The byzantine mafia royal politics for no real reason smothered the whole thing. It all seemed so far out there cultish to the extreme. But real cults at least paint a pretty picture of a happy utopia but this one was all grim and doom.
this was my second (and final) attempt a reading a d&d book and while they had some interesting factors in the stories the charcters were too overtop the super heroey for me to care. I was all ways rooting for a goblin with a bow to get a lucky shot and kill them off because they were over confident and wreckless.
No I never read 'the dragons of...' series either because of the same problem. Unrealistic comic book pulp
That said I also played D&D for well over a decade. And I loved to kill PCs who tried to live out their "I want to be Drizzt" fantasies. but it did inspire me to try my own writing (shameless plug). I fear the day I find myself creating a Drizzt type character, and the self loathing that will come with it.
Ogrish wrote: "*louder clap*I read this book a long time ago and I don't remember if I finished it. The byzantine mafia royal politics for no real reason smothered the whole thing. It all seemed so far out th..."
Just wondering what you kill someone if they were running the Legend of Drizzt campion that is coming out in October?
So where should the first time reader start? With the Dark Elf Trilogy or since the Icewind Trilogy takes place before DET (I think that's what I read) should I start there? I've heard about these books for years and just never got them but now I'm going to so I'm just not sure where's the best start.
Paul wrote: "So where should the first time reader start? With the Dark Elf Trilogy or since the Icewind Trilogy takes place before DET (I think that's what I read) should I start there? I've heard about the..."
I would start with the Crystal Shard because it is a different view on Drizzt as being a side character. Then you can read either the Dark Elf Trilogy or continue with the next two books in the Icewind Dale Trilogy.
I agree with you, Rick, that Raistlin is orders of magnitude more complex. I have read the first six Drizzt books and I found them only getting worse and worse, but the first six Dragonlances were excellent.
Brad wrote: "I agree with you, Rick, that Raistlin is orders of magnitude more complex. I have read the first six Drizzt books and I found them only getting worse and worse, but the first six Dragonlances were ..."I don't know about that. I found it to be the exact opposite. The Dragonlance books were too much of dungeon crawl, while Drizzt was something different.
I don't deny the dungeon crawl aspect of the first three Dragonlances, that's fair, I think, but where the Dragonlance books are superior is in characterization. While the books begin with the classic archetypes (and do so on purpose) many of the characters break out of those stereotypes and engage in real complexity, and complexity that remains consistent. And Raistlin is the best of them all. He is super complicated, and one of the muddiest characters around. Once the series migrates to the "Legends" set, it leaves behind the dungeon crawl and gets even better. The other thing that Dragonlance does better is to keep its characters -- even the super powerful Raistlin -- in a realm of believable strength. Drizzt and his cronies are too tough. Waaaaaaay too tough. So tough that I can't connect with them at all. Drizzt is great at everything he does, so much so that I could never feel any sense of danger. In Dragonlance there were stakes. Not so in the world of Drizzt.
I do apologize, Kevin. I know you're a big fan, and I've been trying to stay quiet (cause I really have a problem with these books) so as not to be the negative Nelly disrupting the fun, but when it came to Raistlin I just had to throw my support to Rick.
Brad wrote: "I don't deny the dungeon crawl aspect of the first three Dragonlances, that's fair, I think, but where the Dragonlance books are superior is in characterization. While the books begin with the clas..."That's one thing that I hate about fantasy is that the world is going to dead without the main characters saving it. That's what made Drizzt so great, its all about him. I guess that is why you don't find Drizzt so great because it all focused all that one character mainly.
Rick, I read all of the "Dragons Of..." books and they are great! I am a huge Dragonlance fan though so my opinion is pretty biased. If you liked the Chronicles then you will most certainly appreciate this trilogy as they fill in the gaps between the books to make a fuller timeline.I would agree that Raistlin seems to be more interesting/developed than Drizzt, but I have read 9+ Raistlin books and only this one Drizzt book. I would hope that he opens to more complexity throughout the other books (which I intend to read).
Overall I loved the book! To me, Drizzt reminds me very much of Raistlin. Where Raistlin is a misunderstood evil in the company of good, Drizzt is the misundertood good in the company of evil.
As for the society not being able to survive. I disagree. Lolth, their spider queen, is whom they serve. And it is through that worship that some semblance of order is maintained. Lolth does not permit chaotic killing. She demands cunning and plotting and secrecy. If everyone were just open killers, then yes, the society would soon see itself destroyed. However, this is not so. Instead, everything is done to appease Lolth. As was noted, by Zaknafein I believe, this form of society will weed out the weak (which seems to be detested by the drow). The idea that if you fail to assasinate your target, or are caught in the act, you are punished even harder in the last moments of your life (and probably more so by Lolth, in your death) will slow up the destruction of the society as it could take decades to plan out a single assasination. Waiting for the right moment to strike, the perfect opportunity to appease your goddess (Alton DeVir for example). And since the drow live for 8+ centuries (assuming they die of old age), waiting a few decades is nothing to them. Also, this book took place over 4 decades I think, and there were all of 4 or 5 assassinations (attempts). Given there are hundreds, if not thousands of drow an average of 1-2 assassinations a decade would not see their race wiped out any time soon.
Adam wrote: "If everyone were just open killers, then yes, the society would soon see itself destroyed. However, this is not so. Instead, everything is done to appease Lolth."Good point.
The main reason that I love Drizzt so much is because he is one of the only characters that I know that has clear integrity.
One of the only characters with clear integrity in this series or in fantasy?
I think in fantasy all the time, I am not saying there are not others out there.
Interesting. You have me thinking of others now, which is cool.
Drizzt is lovely, beautiful, gorgeous, an angel, admirable and I want to have his babies (not that an old B like me could get his attention, but he is so virtuous, wonderful and kind, so at least he'd help me totter across a street) but the books still suck.
Rick wrote: "I've been reticent to talk too much about Homeland because, well, I didn't really enjoy it. But since the discussion board is pretty quiet, I might as well get the ball rolling, regardless of any n..."I did think Homeland was pretty light, but at the same I see it as more of an origin story to set up the world and the character. This is my first Drizzt book so I'm hoping more happens in future books.
Jenny wrote: "Rick wrote: "I did think Homeland was pretty light, but at the same I see it as more of an origin story to set up the world and the character. This is my first Drizzt book so I'm hoping more happens in future books.."me too
Just remember that Homeland is the first book of a trilogy, The Dark Elf Trilogy, that serves as Drizzt's origin story, so this is just the first third of it. The second trilogy in the Drizzt series--The Icewind Dale trilogy--was actually written before The Dark Elf Trilogy. When Salvatore wrote The Icewind Dale trilogy, he did not anticipate Drizzt being so popular with readers, and had actually wanted to focus on another character (Wulfgar). So this trilogy was Salvatore giving readers what they wanted, which was more Drizzt. I think there's a lot of ground covered in Homeland--in addition to establishing Drizzt's moral character, Salvatore goes in the intricacies of Drow society that Drizzt is up against, a society that has been hijacked by an evil deity that encourages the conflicts and strife that alienate Drizzt and leads to his departure. Much of what is established in this first book is built upon further in the rest of the Dark Elf trilogy, including the sacrificial death of his father and Drizzt's betrayal of Lolth, as well as Drizzt's moral development. Salvatore also revisits some of this in later books in the larger Drizzt seiries.
Mod
You will likely enjoy the Icewind Dale books starting with The Crystal Shard - The Icewind Dale Trilogy #1 of 3 better.
Mod
I have almost the entire series of Drizzt books due to Humble Bundle & StoryBundle, so I will continue at some point, but I'm a bit snowed under with the early 2025 reads I've committed to.
I usually read R.A. Salvatore`s books in parallel to my gaming habits. Having Homeland on the rereads list proved to be good change. This time, by a coincidence, it fell after a finished Baldur`s Gate 1, in which Drizzt is an episodic char. I was surprised, in a good way, by this book. The setting had a Borgia feeling, which I enjoyed. Of course, The Forgotten Realms mythos is full of societies in which leaders plot against each other. What I liked here was the combination of egocentrism and some kind of hope. The reversal of some RL hierarchies was compelling
Drizzt was interesting, especially since he was built in contrast. The author may have abused of antithesis, though. He is better written than in the Icewind Dale trilogy. I found him passable in that series and I always wondered why was he so popular.
Homeland has obvious flaws. Like many of its genre, it adapts a setting which itself is derivative. The Forgotten Realms world is basically simplified Tolkien with some recent additions. Therefore, this book is somehow schematic, but the setting and the main character make up for its flaws.
