"The Snow Queen" General Discussion *spoilers*

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

I want to continue it.

[Kerry]

I have no idea how one sets up such a thing - is there a moderator reading who can tell us? Considering people clearly have other things on a well, what if we tried to read one book every two or three months?

[Genia]

You could set it up as a side read. I should think that would be acceptable.

[Snail in Danger (Sid)]

I'd participate. Maybe we could just have threads in this folder?

[Diane]

There is a side reads folder.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...

[Snail in Danger (Sid)]

Yeah ... I was thinking it might be more convenient to have the threads here, but I suppose it doesn't really matter.

[Kit]

I want to continue-but my library doesn't have summer queen.

[Coralie]

I have The Summer Queen on my reading list for late in the year.

[Katy]

I plan to read World's End about mid-August. I think I will read it and then the The Summer Queen.

[Katy]

Anna wrote: I'll read World's End with you. It was..."

Cool beans

[[deleted user]]

The threads for continuing with a read-a-long have been opened. Feel free to use 'em :)

[Kerry]

Thanks Ala.

[Richard]

Late to the party, again... just too much going on to read all those GR group reads in sync.

But this one finally came to the top of the stack, and I finished it a few hours ago. Just finished my review, which started off at two-stars ("it was okay") but by the time I was done with writing the review, I'd realized my disappointment with this book went much deeper, so I ended up giving this only one star.

For details, my review is here, but a quick summary:
Moon... (view spoiler)[clueless, and as Peggy pointed out, "too Mary-Sue-ish", but worse, she falls into the juvenile trap of wanting to rescue the bad boy, and Vinge gives it to her! (hide spoiler)]
Sparks... (view spoiler)[another bratty adolescent who turns to thuggery and worse because life's handed him some disappointments, yet we're s'posed to like him? Why? And as mentioned, the forgiveness was just wrong. (hide spoiler)]
Jerusha... (view spoiler)[a more interesting character, but all she could do was whine about how she'd been handed a raw deal, even as her bullheadedness made others suffer as well. She shoulda walked as soon as she knew she was being gamed, yet once again portrays determination as if that's all that matters, so she gets an unwarranted happy ending. (hide spoiler)]
The world... (view spoiler)[oh, c'mon. Clubbing baby seals? Because their blood brings eternal life? A planet with extreme seasons because... its solar system has been captured by a black hole?!? Way too much melodrama. (hide spoiler)]
And finally, the plot... (view spoiler)[is a low-budget romance novel. Stupid kids in luuvvvv make stupid decisions, and after tortured melodrama, they're handed everything they didn't deserve. (hide spoiler)]

Nope. Didn't like it.

[Snail in Danger (Sid)]

Heh, Richard. Now I kind of wish someone would defend the characters, though sadly, I don't think I have it in me. I kind of agree with you, but maybe not quite to the same extent. I do take issue with calling Moon a Mary Sue, but mainly on semantic grounds.

In general I feel like Vinge's writing has a tendency toward unhappiness and what might be called melodrama (thinking of the series that starts with Psion).

I don't know if clubbing baby seals for eternal life is that ridiculous to me on its face. I mean, in the sense that I think that there are plenty of people who'd happily do so for eternal life or even just if it made a nice recreational drug. (Thinking of Brightness Falls From The Air here.)

I do think that the characters get a little more depth/complications in The Summer Queen but I understand if you don't want to continue. (I started but punted on it mostly because its atmosphere is not what I'm in the mood for right now.)

[Richard]

Hmm, read the little essay on Mary Sue, and respectfully disagree. Take the difference between Jerusha and Moon, along with Arienrhod. I have big problems with the first two characters, but only one was criticized because she was too "flawless". And I don't mean that superficially — I'm used to being disappointed when all of an author's main characters are Beautiful People, although that is one of the factors that contributed to my seeing this as a romance novel.

[Peggy]

I discovered Joan Vinge when I picked up Catspaw, which I believe is the sequel to Psion. I adored both of them at the time, and even reread them. Cat was one of my earliest literary crushes. :-) Part of me wants to have another look, but I'm afraid adult me won't like it as much. Which is kinda what happened with The Snow Queen.

In unrelated news, Brightness Falls From the Air killed me dead. I can reread Tiptree forever.

[Snail in Danger (Sid)]

Peggy, I felt the same way about Cat. I feel like those books have held up better than this one, except that the sadness level is higher than I personally care for these days. (Especially in Dreamfall, which I thought was an impressive but sad book.)

I loved Catspaw too, when I first read it.

[Peggy]

Great, now you're making me want to reread all the books about Cat! :-)

Vinge's short story collection, Eyes of Amber is also worth a look, especially the title story.

[Michele]

I loved The Snow Queen and just started The Summer Queen.

[Valerie]

First Impression:

I was captivated from the start. The entire book had a feel of magical wonder to it that reminds me of a childhood fairy tale, yet this was a mature story. Vinge does a great job with this. So often, authors try to capture this and it comes across feeling forced. Well done.

[Valerie]

General thoughts:

This was definitely one of those books that caught me by surprise. I had no pre-conceptions going in other than I liked the cover. I ended up enjoying the heck out of the book.

I thought that the story did a great job of making the reader sift through sympathies for noble intentions and whether actions are justifiable. There was nothing so clear cut as good versus evil. I thought this angle was well-used in the layering of intrigue.

On top of that, you have all of the juicy yin/yang, opposites colliding going on; summer vs winter, tech vs faith, the have vs the have-nots.

Finally, I love the blending of fantasy and scifi. In my dorkorific tracking of fantasy vs scifi, I had to give quite a bit of thought in which category this title would be placed.

I enjoyed the heck out of it, and once again I am glad to discover books like this through this group.

[Michele]

Valerie wrote: "General thoughts:

This was definitely one of those books that caught me by surprise. I had no pre-conceptions going in other than I liked the cover. I ended up enjoying the heck out of the book.

..."

Yes, it is quite a multi-layered masterpiece, imho.

[Sarah]

Valerie wrote: "Finally, I love the blending of fantasy and scifi. In my dorkorific tracking of fantasy vs scifi, I had to give quite a bit of thought in which category this title would be placed..."

I need to reply more later but I wanted to say that this was absolutely the coolest element in the book. It was like a fantasy story wrapped in a sci-fi story. And it was done so well! I actually ended up shelving it as both.

[Monica]

I'm finding it interesting but not riveting. I'm about 150 pages in and waiting to be entranced. Lots has happened in the book and yet my reaction is sort of "meh". I think I set my expectations too high. Enjoying it, but so far not really engaged...

[Edwin]

Monica wrote: "I'm finding it interesting but not riveting. I'm about 150 pages in and waiting to be entranced. Lots has happened in the book and yet my reaction is sort of "meh". I think I set my expectations to..."

I'm a little past you at about page 170. I was where you are feeling a bit underwhelmed at first, but the story is steadily growing on me. There is an evolving complexity and multifaceted-ness to it that now has me fully engaged.

[Maggie]

I liked parts of it, but had issues with the characters as well. Their choices were annoying, and things came together for them a little too well!

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

I thought it complex and multi-layered too - literary.

[Sarah]

I thought it seemed like the characters were buffeted about by events more than controlling their own lives. I never did warm up to Sparks. It seemed like he always took the easy, self-pitying route. I'm reading The Summer Queen now and I still don't like him :)

[Edwin]

I finished pretty impressed. This is a very multi-dimensional book that has a lot going on and a lot of thought provoking ideas and social and human commentary. It is also a wonderful blend of folk telling and hard science fiction. My edition has a “reader’s guide” at the end, which is more the author’s thoughts on the book and its’ genesis than a “guide” per se, and was quite insightful to read afterwards.

I agree with Valerie’s comments about the numerous and interesting dichotomies in this book: life versus death, mortality vs. immortality, revenge vs. forgiveness, tradition vs. innovation and change, folklore vs. science.

I found the characters strong and complex, and as Vinge admits in the comments afterwards, the females especially. One can see, which she readily admits in the afterwards, her reaction to some of the chauvinism going on in the literary community at the time she wrote the book.

I did find the whole forgiveness aspect of Moon’s charisma frustrating, as each and pretty much every character Moon interacts with find redemption for their sins, often just by being in her presence. It made them seem to me fickle to the point of annoying unrealism. The best, or worst, example is (view spoiler)[with Sparks: from innocent and pure, to corrupted and evil, to forgiven, redeemed and back to good again, albeit with some leftover guilt. It just did not work for me. (hide spoiler)].

So, 4 solid stars for me.

[Monica]

Edwin wrote: I found the characters strong and complex, and as Vinge admits in the comments afterwards, the females especially. One can see, which she readily admits in the afterwards, her reaction to some of the chauvinism going on in the literary community at the time she wrote the book.

This was actually one of the things I found disappointing about the book. While I do think many of the female characters were well drawn, the male characters were not. They were pretty generically good or evil. Slight bit of nuance in their characterizations, but not much (in my view). I think Vinge suffers from an affliction I often link to male authors. She doesn't seem to write characters well that are a different gender (at least not in this book) from her own. In my view, the outcomes in this book...the "happy endings" came across as pretty chauvinistic where both Jerusha's and Moon's happiness and well being were directly linked to the idea that they "got" their men in the end.

Another item I wasn't completely sold on was the concept of the Mers. Of course the mostly senseless slaughter of a species is disturbing. But Vinge never sold me on the concept that they were as intelligent as humans. They sang and were joyful. So do puppies and potbellied pigs. Humans do this to animals all day long for much less payoff (whales, and seals, and bears). What I'm trying to say (rather poorly I admit) is that the value of the Mers based on the genocide argument wasn't all that substantive. My understanding is that the Mers are better explained in The Summer Queen.

On a positive note, I am completely consumed with wanting to know more about the Sibyls and the Sibyl mind. Fascinating concept. Also, Vinge did really draw me in with many of the minor characters. I was genuinely heartbroken when Elsiever and Silky died. I loved Aspundh. I came to enjoy Tor and Pollux's relationship. There is a lot to like about this book. Overall, I gave it a hair less than 3.5 stars, but it really was a toss up. I'll probably up the rating as I think on it more...

[Sarah]

The second book, World's End, does an excellent job of developing BZ's character. I thought Sparks was an odd character. He did such awful things and I felt they were done out of weakness. Why would she still want him?

[Beth]

Hello, buddy readers! It's two weeks 'til May 8 and this is a hefty one (over 500 pages in small-ish print in the paperback I own), so here's a heads-up so everybody can get their eyes and/or ears limbered up.

[Gabi]

Thanks for the reminder, Beth. I definitely want to re-read this teenage-fav of mine and see how it is holding itself nowadys. So I will slowly come to an end with my current readings and don't start any tome.

[Silvana]

Can the book stand on its own or you have to read the sequels?

[Gabi]

Silvana wrote: "Can the book stand on its own or you have to read the sequels?"

As far as I remember it stands on its own.

[Travis]

Just peeked inside. Those two epigraphs work so well together!

[Robert]

I have a copy of each book in the series: The Snow Queen, World's End & The Summer Queen.

If there is going to be a group read, I am in for it.

[Beth]

Hi Robert, this isn't an "official" group read; it's a buddy read that was organized through the Buddy Read thread. Feel free to join us!

This one's on SFFBC's group shelf and would count toward Read All the Books, if you are interested in reading challenges.

[Travis]

Spoilers / initial impressions through chapter 1

(view spoiler)[That prologue is sufficiently creepy to pique my interest in this world. Chapter 1's explanation of the difference between summer folk and winter folk just expanded it. I'm also loving how at least so far this seems to be a world devoid of patriarchy (maybe even organized as a matriarchy?). The more-than-kissing cousins/twins caught be aback, and I'm wondering how this aspect fits into the plot or the world. (hide spoiler)]

[Gabi]

Travis wrote: "Spoilers / initial impressions through chapter 1

[spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[ ah yes, I forgot about the love between the cousins, since that trope doesn't bother me (hide spoiler)]

Started it. Yet I'm reading the German translation, since I own that from waaaaay back when I was young ;), so I hope, there is no confusion with names.
First two chapters: (view spoiler)[I love how this already starts with the foreboding sense of doom. I feel a grip around my heart, especially when I read about the mers (who hopefully are called this in the original - I'm referring to the sea creatures) (hide spoiler)]

[Travis]

Gabi wrote: "Yet I'm reading the German translation, since I own that from waaaaay back when I was young ;), so I hope, there is no confusion with names. ."

Maybe that's better. So far, the world and story and characters are succeeding more for me than the writing. I keep getting distracted by imagining little edits that would make for much more successful sentences.

[Travis]

Gabi wrote: "Travis wrote: "Spoilers / initial impressions through chapter 1."

And, yes, they're called "mers" in the original too.

[Gabi]

Travis wrote: "Maybe that's better. So far, the world and story and characters are succeeding more for me than the writing. I keep getting distracted by imagining little edits that would make for much more successful sentences. "

Oh, I can believe that this is very distracting! The translation is good.

I had that problem you mention with the first Tanith Lee book I read. The prose was horrible - yet since it, too, was a translation I have no idea if it was the author's or the translator's fault.

[Travis]

Gabi wrote: "Oh, I can believe that this is very distracting! The translation is good.."

Vinge seems really fond of "to be" verbs when it would be just as easy to describe the action more actively and precisely. So if your translation avoids that problem, then it may just be better than the original!

[Gabi]

Yesterday night I especially paid attention to the style. There is nothing I would object to, quite the contrary. So they must have done a good job with the translation.

[Travis]

I'm through chapter 13 now. The writing is no longer bugging me, and I am just so impressed and blown away by the layers of this world and the depths of history we're seeing in glimpses.

(view spoiler)[Moon's response to leaving gravity behind was particularly well done: true to her character in a way that captured the awe of such an experience. (hide spoiler)]

[Travis]

Another thing I've started to wonder is whether Vinge had Moby-Dick, or, the Whale in mind as one of her sources:

(view spoiler)[There's the name Starbuck as an obvious point, the revenge plot as another, and the exploitation of a species seen as a valuable resource for exploitation. (hide spoiler)]

[Beth]

At about the 1/3 mark it feels a little old-fashioned, much more prone to "telling" than "showing." There's nothing wrong with that, although it does makes the story feel dense and distant at times. (Omniscient POV contributes to that too?) The descriptions are great, very absorbing.

I hadn't thought of Moby Dick, but it's possible! In the initial parts of the book there was a flurry of similarities that came to mind, mostly calling forward, so they couldn't possibly have influenced Vinge (my pre-2000 SFF reading isn't strong): Hundred Thousand Kingdoms ("country kid in the unearthly palace"), Earthsea (island setting), Wells' City of Bones (tiered/spiraling city structure).

[Travis]

LOL ch. 20
(view spoiler)[Verbs at the ends of sentences will I place. (hide spoiler)]

[Travis]

Beth wrote: "The descriptions are great, very absorbing."

Yes! I agree. I feel like I'm really able to see these worlds.