You'll love this one...!! A book club & more discussion
Group Themed Reads: Discussions
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July Read: The Hunger Games - discussion led by Judy
Cecily wrote: "I'm not in any way condoning those situations, but I don't think they're really comparable, and I think the Hunger Games are too far fetched (in other respects too) for me to be really engrossed in that world."No, they are not comparable. They are the realities that our society is faced with today. The other is fiction.
We may have to agree to disagree. We all like books for different reasons. We all like different genres and themes and that is a good thing. How boring life would be if we all liked the same things. There would be no discussion.
The book that caused the biggest uproar in our book club was Never Let Me Go. Many of us really disliked the book and the content. When we read To Kill a Mockingbird the discussion was short and sweet. We all loved the book.
Much of what we do is worse than the Hunger Games. 23 children age 12-18 die every year in the games. Others die from starvation, dangerous working conditions, etc. Many more than 23 children per year have died fighting as soldiers. Under 2000 Children total have died in the 74 years of the hunger games. There seems to be no war either between the districts or with other countries. We lose many people every day who are fighting on various sides of different wars.
I think the big difference with the Hunger Games is the publicity. In our history, when people (especially children) die or are killed it tends to be done behind closed doors. It isn't the killing but the public nature of it and the fact that nobody is standing up to it in spite of the publicity that is shocking.
I think you are correct about the publicity, Shaina. I think Templesmith's role was to feed the publicity.When I read The Hunger Games, I wasn't overly disturbed by the games because it is fiction. On the other hand, when I read Tears of the Desert: A Memoir of Survival in Darfur I was extremely disturbed and upset. I'm still traumatized by it.
Apparently, it is being made into a movie. I had to chuckle when Stephen King said in his review that they were going to have a hard time getting a PG-13 rating "on this baby".I don't know about fiction being desensitizing. I would have to think hard on that having never considered it before.
Desensitizing is a possible explanation as to why the teenagers in the story didn't express a lot of fear. They had been forced to watch the games from the time that they were little. Keeping people hungry is a method of brainwashing which may also have been a factor.
Ben (who I don't think is in this group) commented on my review and included a link to this interesting blog article, that echoes many of my doubts about the book: http://nancykress.blogspot.com/2010/0...
Judy, I've done some thinking about your question about desensitization. I think that literature is sensitization rather than desensitization. An author puts a face on the character and gives that character multiple layers. The reader relates to that character and begins to empathize with them. People are in danger of being desensitized when the character has no face and becomes depersonalized.You'll always get the occasional person who will blame a movie, song, book, etc to do some horrible act, but they already have some faulty wiring in their brains.
Cecily wrote: "Ben (who I don't think is in this group) commented on my review and included a link to this interesting blog article, that echoes many of my doubts about the book: http://nancykress.blogspot.com/20..."Here is a link to an interview with Collins which might shed some light on her inspiration for the book.
http://www.schoollibraryjournal.com/a...
Some of Nancy Kress's readers commented that it wasn't plausible that parents would stand by and let their children be taken in a lottery to play in the games. One of the methods used to brainwash people is to keep them hungry. Many of the cults that were prevalent in the 70's used this method of brainwashing to "convert" their recruits. Look at some of the horrific results - Jonestown, Waco Texas.
Couple the hunger with the Peacekeepers grip on the districts and people are controlled. District 12 had it easy in that the Peacekeepers were quite lax. (view spoiler) I've moved on to the other two books when I reveal that.
Really, I see all three books as one book. Without the other two books, the story isn't complete. Discussing one book without taking into consideration the other two is like trying to sit on a three legged stool on which two legs are missing.
I think that, like other YA speculative fiction, The Hunger Games serves as a means to let teenagers discover that there is courage in the face of adversity, even subjugation, and that one can overcome "the monster".
Judy wrote: "Cecily mentioned that Cinna was a more interesting character to her than Claudius Templesmith. He is to me, too. So let's talk about Cinna.What makes Cinna different from the other people in the ..."
I don't know what makes him different, but I think he genuinely cares for Katniss. His friendship was a happy thing for her. Perhaps his role was to be a balance and gave Katniss someone she could trust and relax with.
I hope you feel better quickly, Judy.
I have read the first 2 books in the series, and they are certainly page-turners. Don't let the "young adult" categorization stop you; the books are mature and intelligently written. I've got book 3 on my nightstand ready to read next. Enjoy!
Debra wrote: "I have read the first 2 books in the series, and they are certainly page-turners. Don't let the "young adult" categorization stop you; the books are mature and intelligently written. I've got boo..."Having read the first two books, did you feel differently about the first book? I thought the second book slowed down the pace and developed the various characters in more depth.
Judy wrote: "I've been sitting here discussing the sensitization vs. desensitization issue with my husband. I can't argue with the points you made. However, the thought that keeps coming back to me is that we a..."I think that you've touched on some important points. The events in The Hunger Games and other dystopian or speculative fiction is actually metaphoric of the things going on in our world. Yes, the Capitol is symbolic of our greed and refusal to see the atrocities in other parts of the world.
The function of the dystopian novel is to make people aware that this violence is not right. The reader gets to know and care about Katniss. As she goes into the arena and sees the violence, she knows this is wrong. The reader, because he or she identifies with her, hopefully comes to the same conclusion. (view spoiler) She really feels the injustice and inhumanity of the games. (view spoiler)
If this was a series that was violence for violence sake, without a moral or solution I would agee about it being desensitizing. I call some of the action movies you see in the theatres as blood, guts, and gore with no plot. Those are far more guilty of being desensitizing.
I really hope you do read the other two books, Judy. Perhaps they will shed some light on my viewpoint.
If, as parents, our teenagers are reading these books, we should be reading them too and then discussing them with them. They can be a great vehicle for discussing ideals and perhaps even address their fears.
Janice wrote: "Judy wrote: "...If, as parents, our teenagers are reading these books, we should be reading them too and then discussing them with them. They can be a great vehicle for discussing ideals and perhaps even address their fears. "I don't think this was a very good book (my review is here: http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...) and I won't recommend it to my 17 year-old son, who I think is too old for it. However, the point is an excellent one. When he was younger and was reading books with strong themes (particularly His Dark Materials Trilogy: Northern Lights, The Subtle Knife, The Amber Spyglass), I read in parallel and we had some fascinating and very deep conversations that we might not otherwise have had. We still read some of the same books, though not usually at the same time, and I really value the connection we have as a result: a bit like a mini, and more personal version of this group. ;-)
My grandson is 12 and I find it amazing how wise he is. He loves to read and has a mature taste in books. I'll be interested in his comments on The Hunger Games trilogy.
Janice wrote: "My grandson is 12 and I find it amazing how wise he is. He loves to read and has a mature taste in books. I'll be interested in his comments on The Hunger Games trilogy."If he reads it, ask him if you can post some of his comments here - even if the official discussion period has ended. It would be interesting to have the opinions of a reader in the target age group.
Judy wrote: "...Your kids are very lucky to have a mom like you who reads and discusses with them, Cecily...."Thanks, but I'm also lucky that he wants to. He's 17 now and there are only a few books and authors we have in common, but I love it when we do. We have each introduced the other to things we may not otherwise have read - much like this group.
I will definitely post Tyler's comments on the thread. It may be a while though. I have yet to buy the books for him. My copies are on my kindle so I can't lend them to him.I want to give my granddaughter some books too. She's not that much of a reader and I try to encourage her. She's 9 and really loves horses so perhaps something like Black Beauty. I'm not sure if she'd be all that interested in Nancy Drew. I loved Nancy Drew when I was a kid.
Judy wrote: "Poor Cinna, I forgot all about him since we were having such a good discussion. He was my favorite character of the supporting cast in this book. Unlike the gameshow host, I felt that Cinna defin..."
I loved him too, and his team. Perhaps in the beginning, Cinna was more focused on proving himself and his talents, but he genuinely grew to love her.
Katniss was an edible plant. As long as she could find the plant, she could eat it and not starve.
I think in a way Cinna saw something in Katniss that gave him hope and a way to use his talent for something good. Katniss was destined to do great things and he brought that out with his "Girl on Fire" theme, helping her believe in herself.
That's a great observation, Danielle.
Judy wrote: "Who'd a thunk it? Trivia:The Hunger Games has been translated into 26 languages and sold in 38 countries.
(Can anybody get us invited to Suzanne Collins next pool party?) :-)"
I read an interview with her and she said something to the effect that the money is slow to come in. That's life in our household too, but somehow I doubt that we're waiting for the same amount of income.
Judy wrote: "Who do you think was genuinely more free: the Capitol-ists or the District-ites?"Great question Judy! I'm not sure that either one of them had more freedom than the other. They certainly had a different type of freedom.
Of the districts, I think District 12 had the most freedom. Their peacekeepers weren't overly strict. The electricity on the fence was turned off, and they knew about Katniss and Gale hunting and trading - even participated in the trading. Other than the hunger, they were pretty well off in terms of freedom.
The people in the Capitol seemed to have a lot of freedom on the surface. I think that it was expected of them to live their lives in a certain way with all the extremes of fashion and excess. Nowhere does it mention that they were free to travel outside of the Capitol, so perhaps they also had their boundaries enforced. That's speculation though.
I must think on this more.
I agree with Janice, that neither those in the Capitol or District 12 were free, but that what few freedoms they had were very different. Perhaps District 12 had slightly more freedom (still not much), but living in such dangerous and grinding poverty, if forced to choose, I would prefer to be oppressed in the Capitol to being oppressed in District 12 - wouldn't you?
(I haven't read the other books in the trilogy, so don't know much about the other districts.)
Yes, I would rather be oppressed in the Capitol. :)
Judy wrote: "Janice, do the other books mention if there is any landscape other than cityscape in the Capitol?If not, I'd have to take District 12. I'm totally claustrophobic if I'm in a city for more than a ..."
Other than the arena for the Games, it's all city from what I can understand.
Janice wrote: "...Other than the arena for the Games, it's all city from what I can understand. "And yet each year's games is in a totally different environment, and I thought it implied that although those environments were to some extent designed and controlled, that they were in different geological and climatic zones.
This story is post-apocolytic and the United States doesn't exist as it does today, both politically and geographically.Page 17 and 18 (kindle) He tells the history of Panem, the country that rose up out of the ashes of a place that was once called North America. He lists the disasters, the droughts, the storms, the fires, the encroaching seas that swallowed up so much of the land, the brutal war for what little sustenance remained. The result was Panem, a shining Capitol ringed by thirteen districts..."
How did you determine that the Capitol is located in Colorado, Judy? I did a search and Colorado isn't even named in the book.
At first, I thought that the arenas were in different geographical and climatic zones, which would make sense judging from what we know about science today. I have since changed my opinion. They enter the Arena from the same location each time, through a launch tube. The cornucopia is in the same place, but each time there is a difference landscape.
The Capitol is much more advanced scientifically than we are today. That is obvious in that they can affect the weather in the arena and change the landscape. It reminds me of the biospheres that scientists are experimenting with today.
I could be way off base here and have allowed my imagination to run free. Perhaps that's the beauty of reading - we all bring our own interpretations, imaginations, and conclusions to the printed word.
It will be interesting to see how this is all interpretted (and rewritten) when its made into a movie.
Perhaps you saw this website. The creator of the site has spent a lot of time speculating where each district fits into the map of the United States. Canada is also part of North America. The Rockies feature largely in Alberta and British Columbia, so the Capitol could possibly be there. District one is luxury - gold and diamonds are currently mined north of Alberta.I'm surprised that people are so invested in identifying the locations of the Capitol and districts on the map of the States. I guess that since I've been a lover of Fantasy/sci-fi since I was in my teens, I have no problem suspending the known world for a completely fabricated one.
Janice wrote: "...I'm surprised that people are so invested in identifying the locations of the Capitol and districts on the map of the States...."Personally, I am not particularly interested in where (but as a Brit, whatever the location, it would mean less to me), but was puzzled as to the size of Panem, and I think the only reason the conflicting cues irked me was because I wasn't really enjoying the book.
However, for some people, location is a key way of identifying with aspects of the book, I think.
I not only see it as a 'reality game', I see it as being a REAL reality game.When we watch (which I don't) reality games on TV, it's different - we know these things aren't going to happen in the real world.
But the scenario in this book is that of The Hunger Games being very real to the people. They follow the progress on TV, just as much as we would watch the Olympics.
And that was what The Hunger Games reminded me of - The Olympics.
'Cept nobody tries to kill anybody.
Carly wrote: "I not only see it as a 'reality game', I see it as being a REAL reality game.When we watch (which I don't) reality games on TV, it's different - we know these things aren't going to happen in t..."
Good observation Carly. It made me think of the movie "The Running Man" which was a reality tv program with life and death consequences.
Cecily wrote: "Personally, I am not particularly interested in where (but as a Brit, whatever the location, it would mean less to me), but was puzzled as to the size of Panem, and I think the only reason the conflicting cues irked me was because I wasn't really enjoying the book."The book says, "the encroaching seas that swallowed up so much of the land", so Panem could have been quite small. There may also have been some unihabitable land as well that wasn't included in the districts.
Judy wrote: "You would have been more adept at leading this particular discussion. :-)..."Hardly!! You are doing an awesome job, Judy.
Come to think of it, a lot of fantasy books will include a map which helps you picture where everything is. Too bad this book didn't have that.You're doing great, Judy. There has been lots of good discussion on the book.
Judy wrote: "... just a book..."Heresy! LOL ;-)
Hi All. Just been reading through your great discussion. I'm wondering how on earth they are going to make this into a movie that can be age rated for the book's target audience?
I don't think "Paul" was aimed at kids, was it? Simon Pegg and Nick Frost's main market is 20s-30s, though they have a reasonable fan base beyond that range.
Judy wrote: "Who do you think was genuinely more free: the Capitol-ists or the District-ites?"In a way I think the district-ites may have been more free. In the capital looks/money/etc was very important. While the district-ites had work as their masters (as it were) the capital was left to its own cruel ideals of what was right/wrong as well as being trapped under the government. Our characters from the districts were still allowed, at the end of the day, to be themselves to an extent. Once they started into the games they were pushed and polished into being caricatures of themselves (i.e.: Katniss and her flames) in order to appeal to the capital-ists.
I think marketing played a crucial role in the games because it was how the tributes attracted sponsors. Their gifts could be the difference between life or death.I tried my hand at both games, and lost at both of them. LOL!
Cecily, The whole point of child contestants is that the capital wants to make a example of them. It is a message to potential rebels, "you are powerless, even your children belong to us and can be used against you.As a literary tool it ensures you see the capital as "the bad guy." It is a parental intinct.
Cecily, it is explained later. Peeta had a crush on her since kindergarten. They went to the same, small school. He had to throw the bread out anyway, and I have known small children to go through a parent's pocket to give small change to a beggar( especially when told not to do so). Judy, Peeta was very generous but it was mostly because he liked Katniss. Don't tell me you have ever refused a crushed anything.
Cecily, Katniss had never killed a human being before. Plus there is a big difference between hunting and running for your life.As far as the fear comment I agree.
Megan wrote: "Katniss has never killed a human being. Plus there is a big difference between hunting and running for your life.As far as the fear comment I agree."
Thanks for joining in on the discussion Megan. I just have one clarification. Katniss killed Cato after he had been half killed by the muttations. She did it out of pity and mercy.
Most societies have this kind of rule breaking don't they, espacially in situations where things are in short supply or life is hard, like in war time. I guess it added and element of realism that there was an unofficial economy. It didn't make me disrespect the officials - everyione was just getting by as best they could in a totalitarian state.
District 12 was fortunate in that their Peacekeepers would look the other way and would even participate in purchasing the contraband. In a way, it illustrates how people think they have it so bad, until they see how others are living. We may think we've got it tough because we live from paycheque to paycheque until we see the lineup at the soup kitchen. In the same way, District 12 thought life was tough until they saw how other Districts were run.
I started this last night and am about half way through, the premise seemed similar to The Running Man as mentioned earlier in the thread, but having ploughed into it, more than anything this reminds me of His Dark Materials trilogy so far. (A Good Thing!) The Katniss-Peeta characters remind me of Lyra and Roger, as does their relationship - the strong, wild, feisty teenage girl with the gentler and more vulnerable male companion. The dystopian setting and theme of the victimisation of children appears very similar too, so far HG just lacks any kind of religious element.
I haven't read His Dark Materials. I saw the movie "THe Golden Compass" but don't really remember much of it to make a comparison.
Judy wrote: "Your point is well-taken, Janice. It made me wonder whether this occurred in other Districts. Like Alison said, this adds a touch of realism and you have to think it probably occurred in all the di..."(view spoiler)
You'll love this one...!! A book club & more
Books mentioned in this topic
His Dark Materials (other topics)Black Beauty (other topics)
His Dark Materials (other topics)
Tears of the Desert: A Memoir of Survival in Darfur (other topics)
Never Let Me Go (other topics)
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However, in none of those awful situations is the death of almost all the children certain and planned and nor is it for the combined motives of sport, entertainment and profit.
I'm not in any way condoning those situations, but I don't think they're really comparable, and I think the Hunger Games are too far fetched (in other respects too) for me to be really engrossed in that world.