History is Not Boring discussion
History re-enactment
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Shirley
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Sep 18, 2008 10:59AM
Are there any history re-enactors among us? I met an interesting fellow that re enacts the Revolutionary War, it is his passion. I think it would be fun to do a couple of times.
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Ive met a few of these folks. Yes they spend a lot of time and money on these reenactments.Here in Northern Cal we have a lot of civil war reenactments too. I think they take turns being Yankees and Rebs. Curiously they are mostly in their 40's; while most civil war soldiers were in their teens and 20's.
I just read a Sci-fi book called "Dies the Fire" Where civilization comes to a halt and all machines cease to function.
Apparently all the Renaisance Fair reenactors then take over because they are the only ones trained to use swords and lances.
Neat book. Survival would be hard if all recent technology stopped.
Mod
I used to volunteer down at a "living history farm" where it was 1820. Lots of fun, too!
A friend of mine is a civil war re-enactor.
A friend of ours used to work as a docent at one of those Colonial Williamsburg-style historical parks - she wore period clothes and demonstrated everyday activities. She thoroughly enjoyed that job.When I was a teenager I was active in the Society for Creative Anachonism (admittedly, their degree of accuracy varies - as one bumper sticker notes, it's not the Society for Compulsive Authenticity.) After I learned about the skills and amount of effort involved in sword-and-shield combat, I had a richer appreciation for history. It was fascinating to learn about the food of other times and places, too.
In a similar vein, I taught my first wife to shoot (she'd literally never touched a firearm before). She had a knack for it and enjoyed it. She had been a fan of detective novels and programs for years, but the next time after she learned to shoot that we watched some TV show where the hero whipped out a little revolver with a two-inch barrel, spun on his heel, and shot some villain off the roof of a building a hundred yards away, she literally jumped to her feet, pointed at the TV, and shouted "That's impossible!" I saw something like that happen in a recent documentary on the battle of Gettysburg. A group of reenactors recreated the role of Union infantry firing period rifles at the Confederate soldiers making Pickett's Charge, to measure the effect of that fire. These guys were used to doing battle reenactments, but not with live ammunition. They set up cardboard cutouts in front of cinderblocks to represent the Southern troops and shot at them with real authentic period ammunition. When they saw the damage and visualized it with real people they were shocked and horrified; some looked sick. They said they'd never understood that part of the history until then.
So sometimes experiencing something really is the best way to understand it.
Neat way to look at it. It's like childbirth you don't understand until you go thru it. The doctors have come up with a serum that causes the father to feel the same contractions as the laboring mother. The very first father this group of doctors tried it on after the control group was a father from Georgia. He and his wife already had 3 kids and this one was a whoops case. Mr. White was fond of saying that women made too much out of the pain of childbirth, that it had gone on since the beginning of time and it wasn't that bad. Mrs White was 3 centimeters and 25 percent effaced and they gave Mr. White the serum. He felt nothing. At each successive degree They gave him a dose, and he continued to feel nothing. The doctors got together puzzled saying Mr. White should be in severe pain. Of course Mr. White blustered "I told you there was nothing to it." When she was due to start pushing the doctors gave Mr. White a double dose. he still felt nothing. The doctors shook thier heads and decided to go back to the drawing board he was the first father in thier experience that hadn't felt anything. Well 3 days later the Whites went home and found the mail man dead in the yard.
I had a brutal awakening along these lines myself at 18. I was in the Marines, in the infantry as a mortarman; I'd been in about a year. Being in the military was an adventure, like being in the movies. I wanted to be the best at my job and studied it - one of the greatest challenges for a mortar team is hitting a helicopter in a landing zone (LZ), because the chopper will be in and out in a matter of seconds and the time from when you fire the mortar until it hits can be over a minute (the shell arcs very high and drops almost vertically on the target, so it travels about 3 times what the straight-line distance would be.) I thought about it a lot as a technical challenge and tried to come up with ways to solve that timing problem.
Then, on the last day of a training exercise in the Philippines, a helicopter crashed and killed nearly everyone aboard, about 30 people. I was one of the volunteers who were the first to the crash site to see if we could save anyone. They were all dead there, in the worst ways imaginable - it looked as if someone had set off a bomb in a butcher shop. I was watching myself and the others with me walking around, checking the wreckage and the dead, and it suddenly hit me that this was exactly what I'd been trying to figure out the best way to do, and it was a horror beyond description. I felt an incredible sense of shame and stupidity at my own naivete, although it had been exactly the way my culture and training had taught me to see things. I never felt like I was in the movies again, and nothing was ever just a technical challenge again.
I stayed in for 20 years, but I never lost sight of what a terrible and serious business I was in after that day. I stayed because I believe it's a job we need people to do, because I was good at it, and because I believed that maybe I would do a better job at getting as many people home in one piece as possible than someone else who still thought they were in the movies might.
I think of that when I hear people, politicians or others, make belligerent speeches and treat war as a casual thing when it's clear they have no idea what they're talking about. I wish there was some way to run them through some reenactment that would give them that kind of awakening too.
Thanks for being 'human'enough to tell us how you felt.
Thanks - it was definitely a life-altering experience, one of the things that shaped me into whoever I am now. It haunted me for a lot of years, but with help I've worked through it.No doubt it's one of the main reasons that as a psychotherapist I've made PTSD one of my specialties. I was facilitating a PTSD group in the prison when I worked in the mental hospital there, and while I was trying to explain some of the symptoms and effects in plain English, I described some of my own reactions to things; one guy's jaw dropped, and he pointed at me and said, "You DO have this too!"
Not to hijack the subject of the string, though, and to get back to reenactment -
I've just started reading a book about the beginnings of computer gaming, and interestingly enough, most of the people who created the big multiplayer online games with medieval or mystical themes, like Ultima and World of Warcraft, had earlier been active in the Society for Creative Anachronism, and/or played a lot of Dungeons and Dragons, and the S.C.A. activities in particular helped them make their depiction of sword-fighting and other ancient modes of combat more realistic. So you could call that another kind of reenactment, and in some cases just enactment, because once people get into the Tolkien-like part of the games involving magic, they're acting out things that are mythical rather than historic.
Another aspect of reenactment that may become common soon: the interface equipment used for computer gaming is steadily advancing, making the experience more and more realistic, to the point that in some ways it's starting to approach a similar level of realism for some game genres. For example, it is now affordable for a lot of people with basically middle-class disposable incomes to buy systems where instead of looking at a monitor on a desk in front of them, they wear a rig with small monitors in front of their eyes; software can provide a 3D effect, kind of like the old Viewmaster toys a lot of us had as kids, and you can also get a hardware/software combo that tracks your head's movements via infrared reflectors on a ball cap or something you wear and shifts the point of view on the monitor to match your movements. Marry up those two, and you have a full-field-of-view 3D perspective that shifts realistically when you move your head.
Combine that with one of the newer headphone sets that uses multiple tiny speakers to give you directional sound not only from left or right but also from in front or behind you; some also have feedback motors so that if something happens in the game that would make you feel a vibration or a jolt, you literally get thumped on the head.
At that point, it really is the next best (or worst) thing to being there, especially for games where you're flying planes or doing things like that. So would that count as a reenactment of, say, flying a Spitfire in the Battle of Britain? I think it might. It would certainly be close enough in some ways to give you a much better intuitive understanding of what that was like.
James, on a related note which you may be able to shed some light: I have heard that men remotely piloting spy drones that have been downed have needed interventions for PTSD. Virtual reality may not be all it's cracked up to be if this is the case.Regarding the reenactment thing though, I think the closer to current events the more distastefull. In the UK there is a big Civil War group called "The Sealed Knot", mainly educational...but also a bunch of WW2 groups.
Barbarossa,It makes sense that people might get PTSD from an experience like that, especially under two conditions: if friendly troops were in danger or were hurt or killed where they could see it, and/or if in the course of their missions they used the drone's weapons and killed someone.
On the plus side, psychologists are using virtual reality to treat PTSD, as well as helping people overcome phobias, by exposing them to gradually more intense and realistic recreations while providing moral and emotional support, giving them the chance to talk it through, and helping them change any distorted thinking that's making it worse, like unfairly blaming themselves or fearing things that no longer threaten them.
I suspect you're right about the relationship between reenactments and time passed. You probably wouldn't have found a lot of people who wanted to do Civil War reenactments in 1870. And not many people nowadays have a gut reaction to Napoleon similar to that they have to Hitler, but in his time Napoleon, and the French Army, were nearly as hated and feared as Hitler and the Wehrmacht were in the 20th century - both were seen by their contemporaries as leaders and armies responsible for wars that wrecked Europe.
And regarding the PTSD, I'd still rather have PTSD from a virtual plane crash than die, or be maimed and have worse PTSD, in a real one.
I wonder if in 150 years time, someone might be reenacting the Vietnam war?
I think disengaging from Iraq will make Vietnam look like a tea party. We are truly living in interesting times.
wow Kelly your are an interesting "Lady Fair"
on the note of Vietnam and iraqmy step mother is vietnamese and lived through that war, leaving in 1975
she had no knowledge of her family for many years and carried scars and shrapnel from a roadside mine
she can't tolerate coverage of the afghanistan or iraq wars
she literally can't be in the room if it is on tv
so any idea of reenactment of vietnam and iraq's real reenactment are fairly abhorrent and accurate to me and her
Mod
Suzanne Vega has a great song about that titled "Yesterday's Troubles", on her album "Songs in Red and Gray" - it uses pirates as an example of how we see things as romantic and glamorous if they're far enough in the past, but to the people at the time they were just the troubles of the day.It will be interesting to see whether Vietnam, Beirut, etc., are being romanticized in another generation, or whether there was enough realistic journalism at the time to make that permanently impossible.
I wonder when the first civil war reenactments took place?I imagine for someone who went through it, the idea that someone might find entertainment through reenactment might find it offensive.
kudos Manuel, probably so except (now this is my own opinion) with the absence of radio and tv it might have been tolerated............
an interesting comment, Manuel. It is hard to imaigine anyone who went through it would regard it as entertainment, unless perhaps you were willing to pay them handsomely. Have the folks here read Confedreates in the Attic? Certainly the best thing I've read on the subject, although it goes well beyond reenactors.
At the 1904 World's Fair In St. Louis (and at other venues as well) one of the entertainments was a reenactment of a battle of the recently concluded Boer War 1899-1902. Some of the reenactors had been participants in the actual battle. I don't know whether any of them left any memoirs, but that would be a fascinating read, wouldn't it?In 1904 we were far less sensitive than we claim to be today. Humans from "less advanced" civilizations were displayed in a zoo-like setting. Serious Negro musicians like Scott Joplin were not allowed to perform except as local color entertainers. I don't suppose we much cared how the reenactors felt about their show.
I think Shirley might have hit the nail on the head.In an era when most news came from newspapers and illustrated magazines, catching up on recent events through reenactments was probably something to look forward to seeing.
The Boer War was still a recent event, and it was located in an exotic corner of Africa. It probably had great appeal.
I understand that Buffalo Bill's great western adventures were also popular during this era.
One of the highlights was the Indian raid on white settlers/pioneers; followed by a calvary charge and rescue.
I also remember an incident from the biography of Sam Clemons (Mark Twain)Once when he was celebrating the 4th of July in Hannibal, Missouri; there was great excitment when a veteran of the revolutionary war was invited to come to town.
Everyone was looking forward to actually seeing and speaking to a soldier from the time of George Washington.
There was great excitment as they waited for the old gentleman to show up..........then shock and anger.
The old guy came into town, leaning on a walking stick and limping along wearing his original Red Coat.
He was quickly uninvited and ordered to go home.
Thanks Manuel, I just had in the back of my mind where people came to hangings, watched the first few battles of the civil war as if it were a big picnic.............tv did help in that respect...........maybe not now it is just as gory.............. Maybe it was putting an end to it to watch some one's head roll into a basket...but I don't know how anyone could stand someone screaming when they were being drawn and quartered....back to man's nature (individual) again.
Great story about the Original Redcoat, Manuel! I'll bet Twain was laughing.Ever read his piece "The War Prayer?" It's one of the shortest, and most powerful, things ever written on the subject. I think it should be required that it be read into the record at every Congressional hearing in which an authorization for a war is considered, and at public ceremonies on Memorial Day and Veterans Day.
There are times when a war is necessary and right, like fighting the Civil War or World War II, and the people sent to fight any war should be respected and honored. But even then it's tragic and should be entered into reluctantly, somberly, and solemnly; and I think every reenactment should include recognition of that side of it... since the reenactments don't include the screaming, the stench, and the lifelong suffering of many of the survivors. I dislike anything that sanitizes the understanding of war and makes it easier for people to decide to start one.
You are right Kelly, hence Robin Hood actually a wishful fantasy.
Shirley wrote: "Are there any history re-enactors among us? I met an interesting fellow that re enacts the Revolutionary War, it is his passion. I think it would be fun to do a couple of times."Yes. I re-enact 1471-1477 Burgundy. Primary event and year is the Siege of Neuss, 1474. Not only do we do field encampments with other historical, medieval reenactors, we also present the material culture of 15th Century Burgundy to the museum going public.
My husband is also part of a Union Artillery reenactment organization. His comment is that it's not re-enactment if the events are faithful to the actual event. He's been to Gettysburg on numerous occasions. He said there was a moment, when the Confederates appeared and he felt transported.
Autumnal Elizabeth, I can understand. My husband works with a lot of folks who fled Thailand in the 1970s and others who fled Vietnam. They shared their stories with him. They are truly horrific. One gentleman fought as an 8 year old boy. He joined the Thai army at that age; imagine being shot, left for dead, and waking up in a body bag. Another woman, and her friends risked their lives floating across a patrolled river where the "enemy" would shoot you on site. She lost her entire family.
Happy Thanksgiving, all.I spent most of yesterday in the shop working on Inkle loom designs. The first one I made for my daughter, Erin, was based on Internet pictures with no real understanding of how the seemingly simple things work. It came out pretty well, although it needed some tweaking. Erin found she uses it vertically more often than not when we thought it would be used horizontally. Interesting stuff. I wound up laying out her 2 looms on a piece of hardboard, so we could easily see how the strings move & try design changes.
Tina, a friend of the kids, is also in the Society For Creative Anachronism (SCA) & a very good weaver. She wants an Inkle floor loom, but they're pricey & she wanted some changes to the design. I said I'd look at it, so she came over & we all played with different designs. Looks like an interesting project. This is it:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Floor-Standin...
$300 isn't a bad price for it, if it's well made with a smooth finish. It will probably cost me $50 in materials, but I won't charge her for labor. It shouldn't take too long, anyway. I got some good ideas for other designs, so it will work out. Interesting gal to talk to & we continued through a great dinner that Josh made.
I may wind up going to some of the SCA events next year. They role play pre 17th century everything. Most are very well versed in the history of their particular field. Some get into it more than others. One blacksmith (Erin's husband Josh's best man) uses completely period tools at events including a coal forge & even has a urine quench bucket which attendees are encouraged to fill. (He doesn't like transporting a full bucket for obvious reasons!) Yes, apparently that was a thing back then. Pee was used for a lot of things. Most aren't quite so thorough in their equipment & reenactments, though.
I was sort of an honorary member of the Nashville chapter when the kids lived down there since I made &/or fixed various wood items for the members. While I have better knowledge of Colonial woodworking & later practices, the results look the same. I also fiddle with a lot of other handicrafts, so can usually pick up on what they want & need fairly quickly. Erin is quick to volunteer my services which is great since it gets me interesting projects & people to talk to. I love learning about this stuff & the people I've met have all been really nice.
This seems to be a dormant thread, but I have just joined so I'm going to see if I post something if someone will join in. I live in Maryland and have done some 18th Century civilian events. I started to get hands on research for stories I was writing. Then after several years I got too busy with kid stuff to keep it up much. Now the kids are in college and I want to find new events. Anyone know of any in MD or eastern North Carolina? I will be camping at the Fort Frederick Market Fair at the end of this month
Kate wrote: "...I live in Maryland and have done some 18th Century civilian events. I star..."I'm not sure what you mean by these events or what you're looking for, but here are some places that might help.
The Steppingstone museum is north & between Churchville & Aberdeen in Harford county. It was a working farm that's been restored into a mini Colonial Williamsburg sort of. I haven't been there in years, but you might check into it. They'd probably know of any in their area.
http://www.steppingstonemuseum.org/
Colonial Williamsburg is another resource & James Town is right next door.
https://www.colonialwilliamsburg.com/
There's a Shaker Village in Hancock, MD.
https://hancockshakervillage.org/
You might also inquire at the University of NC Chapel Hill. That's where Roy Underhill works out of for his Woodwright's Workshop which is Colonial woodworking. I think they have more devoted to that time period.
http://www.unc.edu/
It would probably be worth your while to drop by the Historical Society in Baltimore. They might steer you in the right direction & right nearby are some great historical sites. There's a restored church a block or 2 south, IIRC, & the Engineer's Club is close by, too. Both have premier woodworking, carved walnut panels 2' across & more. I used to work just south of there before we moved to KY a decade ago.
https://www.mdhs.org/
Hope those help!
I guess you also know Monticello & Mt. Vernon are fairly close by. They'd be other good resources for historical groups in the area.
