A Visit from the Goon Squad
discussion
Chronological order
Oh nice! Thanks for posting that. Jennifer Egan said she (and her publisher) had switched from chronological to the way it pubbed because the stories didn't seem as emotionally impacted that way. Be interesting to see if she was right about it.
Wow, this is cool. It never occurred to me to try that. Nice work! They should release a 25th anniversary edition of the book in chronological order, like they did with the Godfather movies. (I'm kidding...sort of.)
Oh that is awesome!!! It would be fun to read the book again in that order!
Someone can double check me on this, as my copy is now on loan, but I think chapter 6 comes before 7 chronologically. In Chapter 6, Bennie tells Scotty when in his office that he has an infant son. (And Scotty comments that Bennie appears to wonder if he deserves such blessings...), while in chapter 7, Bennie and Stephanie's son is in school (can't remember what grade, maybe even pre-school?) It's OK if I am in error--as my memory isn't always right on. Either way, the story, book, characters and feelings evoked from it all remain and remain.
Hey Kathy, thanks for your comment! (and, while I'm at it, the others folks who appreciated my post). I checked my copy, and the reason I think 7 comes before 6, is that Bennie mentions his divorce from Alice to Scotty, while in 7, their marriage is still intact - in fact, we are probably witnessing its final stage.
Hi Mark! Thanks for your quick reply! You mention Bennie commenting on his divorce from Alice--do you mean Stepahanie? As it was Alice and Scotty that were married--and Scotty does speak of this in chapter 6. I love how Scotty comes back in the end of the book--don't you? I think Charlie is just a baby in chapter 6.
Ha, looks like I got my (ex-)spouses mixed up! You are right; Chris is three months old in chapter 6, while in 7 he is mentioned playing with girls from his kindergarten class. So thanks for pointing that out!And yes, I like how Scotty appears again in the end, it kind of closes the circle that Egan started drawing in chapter 3, when they were still young, idealistic punk rock boys.
Oh, to be young and idealistic! Aging and attempting to be realistic is my current life chapter--which is also well represented in Egan's book! Perhaps that is one of the reasons I totally loved this book!
Oops--got Bennie's sons' name wrong, didn't I? It's that memory thing again! Thanks, Mark!
Mark wrote: "Hey everyone. I just finished the book, and scanning through the book again I made an attempt to put the chapters in their chronological order. Just so I can enjoy the book in a different perspecti..."Thank you so much. This book is so confusing. I like the writing style, but darn a guide to when we are is pure awesome. This is great.
Jennifer wrote: "Oh nice! Thanks for posting that. Jennifer Egan said she (and her publisher) had switched from chronological to the way it pubbed because the stories didn't seem as emotionally impacted that way. B..."and, that's probably why she argues that it's a book, while some (including me)argue that it's a collection of short stories with similar themes and characters, but each can stand alone.
I'm new to this website because I did a google search on this exact topic and it brought me here - I'm frustrated by this. Chapter 13 certainly SEEMS more futuristic than chapter 12, and in chapter 12 we never hear anything about "T"-ing or all of that. However, they can't possibly have been that far apart, time-wise. Sasha and Alex went on a date and he was 28, she was 35. Sasha thought he said 28, but "could have been younger" - so let's say he was even 26. Now, we assume that Sasha left NYC not long after that to reunite with Drew, right? So maybe she had her first kid 3 years later? Now, in Chapter 12 that kid is 13 years old. So Chapter 12 takes place 16 years after Chapter 1. That means that Alex is at least 42 by Chapter 12. In Chapter 13 he has a baby and doesn't seem to have waited a terribly long time to have kids, so it can't have been THAT much later than Chapter 12... If at all.
Yet the chapters seem to be worlds apart. Very confusing to me. Any insight or thoughts?
Stephanie wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "Oh nice! Thanks for posting that. Jennifer Egan said she (and her publisher) had switched from chronological to the way it pubbed because the stories didn't seem as emotionally imp..."I definitely agree. That entire section really bothered me. It seemed completely out of the blue.
I loved this book. Fantastic, complex writing that delivered a simple and powerful message. I was a little thrown by the chapter laid out like a power point presentation but once I got over my initial discomfort, even enjoyed that one although I didn't find it added much. As an ensemble, though, I found this book entertaining and simply brilliant. Great writing, at last!
I loved this book and am about to teach it in my college English class. Rather than figure out the chronological order, per se, I tried to figure out what year each chapter was based in thanks to clues within each chapter. See if I have the following right. I also include the POV and verb tense it was written in.Chapter 1: 2008, third, past tense
Chapter 2: 2006, third, past tense
Chapter 3: 1979, first (Rhea), present tense
Chapter 4: 1973, omniscient, present tense
Chapter 5: 2005, first, present tense (originally I said 1999--see message 19)
Chapter 6: 1997, first (Scotty), past tense
Chapter 7 (in five parts): 2002-2004, third, past tense
Chapter 8: 2008, third, past tense
Chapter 9: 1999. first (Jules), past
Chapter 10: 1993, second (Rob), present
Chapter 11: 1991, third, past
Chapter 12: 2025, first (Alison), graphic design
Chapter 13: 2023, third, past
Mark wrote: "Hey everyone. I just finished the book, and scanning through the book again I made an attempt to put the chapters in their chronological order. Just so I can enjoy the book in a different perspecti..."Hi,
Terrifric approach, I am just wondering how you came to this conclusion. I am reading the novel for the third time now and I am struggling to find the chronological order for chapter 8, 5, 2, 1; in that specific order. Thought that I should post my results when I am finished, would be interesting to compare my thoughts with what you came up with.
All The Best/Sebastian
Hi,Scanning through the novel yet another time, I realize that what I am struggling with is actually where to place chapter 8; and, most importantly, why? The only shred of information as I see it is that it was ten years since Kitty Jackson had been attacked by Jules Jones (144. But that only means that chapter 5, 2 and 8 should be very close within year, because we know that Chris was in first grade when Jules came to live with them, it was his spring term (119).
The Best/Sebastian
Update: Chapter 5 is actually 2005 not 1999. At the beginning of the chapter, Jocelyn says "twenty years have passed." If you add that to 1979 of Chapter 3, where we last saw Jocelyn and Rhea, then that makes 1999. However, later in the chapter, Jocelyn says, "I'm forty-three, and so is Rhea." In Chapter 3, they were seventeen, a difference of 26 years. Twenty-six to 1979 makes it 2005. That might change the order of the chapters if you're going linearly.
Hi,Thanks for the response, it means that chapter 5 is set before chapter 2 linearly. Still, I am struggling to figure out which year Jules Jones was indicted and thus in which year chapter 8 was set; I have not been able to find any referencing points to signal this. So, I would be glad if someone could enlighten me.
Mark wrote: "Hey everyone. I just finished the book, and scanning through the book again I made an attempt to put the chapters in their chronological order. Just so I can enjoy the book in a different perspecti..."Hi,
I am trying to figure out which is actually the correct chronological timeline in this novel, and will post my thesis when I am done. The biggest problem as I see it is to separate chapter 12 from chapter 13, I would be glad for any insight you might have.
All The Best/Sebastian
Mark wrote: "Hey everyone. I just finished the book, and scanning through the book again I made an attempt to put the chapters in their chronological order. Just so I can enjoy the book in a different perspecti..."Hi,
Thus far I am at 4, 3, 11, 10, 9, 6, 7, 5, 2, 8 and then I am trying to place chapter 1 - would be thankful for any help.
Hi,Chapter 13 is set in 2023, a decade and a half after Sasha's date with Alex
Sebastian wrote: "Hi,Chapter 13 is set in 2023, a decade and a half after Sasha's date with Alex"
Sebastian, that helps--that's the one chapter I couldn't get a hold on, so I'll update it above. I have yet one new addition. Chapter 7 is in five parts. Clearly the first few parts are in 2002, within months of each other. However, Part V mentions that Chris is seven years old. Earlier in the book, it was 1997 when he was three months old. Thus, if you add seven years onto 1997, you get 2004. Thus, Chapter 7 ranges over two years.
Fun to see how all these contributions lead up to a more definitive timeline. It's been a few months since I read the book, so I can't really explain in detail how I got to my order. I remember just scanning through the book, taking notes while looking for people's ages (mostly from children), time indications of certain events etc.
Thanks Christopher that helps...It is very interesting to try and figure out this order; there are small clues everywhere. The only chapter I can't get a hold off is chapter 12, I can't find any distinct leads; so, if anyone knows something about it could you enlighten me.
Would Be Great/Sebastian
Sebastian, for Chapter 12, I wrote down it was 2021 when I read the book, and now I'm trying to find out how I came to that. On page 235, Alison gives the year as 202_, so I know I'm in the right decade. Blake is 13 and Alison is 12. I don't know if I used that somehow.Another clue just now that I did not use before: on page 249, Alison says the Steve Miller band was popular "50-some years before." I had part of my junior year at the University of Copenhagen in 1975, and that band was very popular then (because I bought a Steve Miller album there).
I just researched, and the band's debut album was in May 1968. The band's second album was in late 1968, which had "Living in the USA" in the top 40, so that's the first time the band was really popular. So at minimum, if "fifty-some" is 52, and you add that to 1968, then you get 2020.
As an aside, I also found out that Steve Miller took part of his junior year at the University of Copenhagen in 1963, twelve years before I went there and bought one of his albums (I was desperate to hear some American songs). Otherwise, he went to the University of Wisconsin at Madison, where my new novel, LOVE AT ABSOLUTE ZERO is set. Coincidence? I'm feeling as if I'm in Egan's novel now.
Another clue for Chapter 12. On the last page of Chapter 11, there's the line that "On on day more than 20 years after this one" Sasha meets her old boyfriend, marries, and has two children. Chapter 11 is 1991, so twenty years would be 2011, and Blake is 13, so that would be 2024. Add a pregnancy period, sipping champagne, and registering gifts for a wedding, that might add another year. If that's true, then it comes two years after the last chapter.
Hi Chris,V - is the first time Sasha is mentioned as Bennie's assistant, I do not really think that it helps but it is definitely a clue.
Another question is, how do we know that chapter 10 is set in 1991?
Actually, we know that chapter 10 is set in 1993, since Bill Clinton's first inauguration was Wednesday, 21, 1993... This means that chapter 1 is set in 2007, since in 1993 Sasha was twenty-one and in chapter 1 she is thirty-five...
Okej,I got a lot done today. However, I am still trying to figure out when chapter 12 is set, Alex and Sasha's date is set in 2007 so the following chapter is the eight set in 2008, after that it is a blur. I am thinking in a different matter when it comes to the paragraph you are mentioning at the last page of chapter 11 Christopher; namely, that it is twenty years after that Sasha has done all of those things because of the semicolon. Therefore, my thesis is that she had Lincoln Blake sometime after 2007, since she is not with Drew Blake at that point. Now, I doubt that I am correct since I do not see any explici proof of my thesis but if we say that she had Lincoln 2008 that would mean that chapter 12 is set in 2021. Also, she probably did not have champagne but Arnold Palmers, being that what my mother had...
Sebastian, where did you get that Sasha is 21 in Chapter 10? I have her at 20. On page 194, she says she hasn't stolen anything in two years, which means she's two years out of Naples when she was 18. Thus I have 15 years from 1993, which equals 2008 for Chapter 1. If 2011 is the earliest she marries Drew (twenty years from 1991), then the first two chapters of the book are when she's single, long past Naples.A couple of points as I'm rereading a few chapters. It makes sense that in Chapter 1 she still steals, as that's what she was forced to do in Naples, a dark time for her, so by stealing from other people, it's as if subconsciously she's showing other people some of the darkness she went through. She doesn't care about what she steals but that she's giving people some of the misery she had.
Also on page 200 in Chapter 10, Sasha talks about Naples where "there were kids who were just lost." Then in Chapter 11, which is in Naples, on page 214, just before the space break, are the words, "She was lost." She was one of those kids, as she says in Chapter 10, that might not "get back to what they'd been, or have a normal life." Her life certainly isn't normal in the first two chapters, but it's more normal than Naples. By Chapter 12, she's a regular mom.
Sebastian, you're suggesting she had Lincoln before she remet Drew, but I don't see any hint of that at all.
There are so many things that tie these chapters together, it's fun. Let me ask this. At the end of Chapter 11, the last line is: "See," Sasha muttered, eyeing the sun. "It's mine." Didn't Sasha and Rob capture the sun once, too, or was that someone else?
Wasn't it Scotty whose eyes were damaged from gazing at the sun when his mom committed suicide? The sun has multiple meanings.I am listening to the book and I think although the reader is not doing voices that well, her expressive reading makes it easier to enjoy and enhances the magic of the prose. Many of my friends have simply tossed it aside because of the subject matter, ignoring the brilliance of the author.
Christopher wrote: "I loved this book and am about to teach it in my college English class. Rather than figure out the chronological order, per se, I tried to figure out what year each chapter was based in thanks to c..."My book group is discussing this next month. Do you have any special helpful hints or ideas or questions or insights I can share with them? They are not impressed with it yet and I would like to enlighten them.
This was a challenging book to teach as most of the class was not impressed at first. However, as we discussed thematic subjects that were layered into the stories, people started understanding the book and seeing more. There is much to chew on in this book including:--The effects of dysfunctional parents on children.
-- The effect of time on our lives.
-- Trying to fit into this world. (Bennie and Stephanie don't fit into the country club; Scotty doesn't fit into the music industry)
-- Appearances are different than the truth.
-- 9/11 changed all of us
-- Innocence is a special thing
-- We're all connected
-- Marriages change over the years. (It's hard to find a happy marriage in this book.)
-- Once a person is "lost," it's hard to get back to normality.
We also talked about the effect of the stories not being linear, and why this isn't a typical novel with a single protagonist. This is not the usual book, so it takes some getting used to for some people. Talking about WHY on many issues, including the book's mixed reactions, is worth discussion. I wouldn't mind Skyping into someone's book club.
I really enjoyed the escape from linear time scale, for me it was a great feature of the book. It teased the reader and dangled us between the ideas that this is a novel or this is a series of short stories. I read it on Kindle and wish I had it in paper format so I could easily flick back and forward to remind myself who everyone was - possible but not so easy in Kindle.
Rosemary wrote: "...I read it on Kindle and wish I had it in paper format so I could easily flick back and forward to remind myself who everyone was - possible but not so easy in Kindle...."But, as a friend pointed out to me, with an ebook, you can search for a character. In fact, it is kind of fun with this book to do just that and to follow that character's appearances through the various chapters.
In addition, others have charted the characters and their relationships. You can Google for that and find some good schematics, rather than repeating all the work yourself.
I really enjoyed that the chapters were not in chronological order. It made me reflect on how we meet people in real life; we make judgements and assumptions, and then adjust those judgements and assumptions after we find out more about those people. Until then, our mind kind of fills in the answers to questions that we have about people's personalities or motives. The arrangement of the chapters allowed me to do the same thing. I relished the revelations that came when I found out why X acted like Y (or how A got to B).
I've enjoyed, in the past, re-reading works in chronological order, but I always have to return to the published order. You can learn different things by reading it in its logical way, but it somehow destroys the original spirit of the work (i.e. The Norman Chronicles).I could rehash what other people have said, but I like the arrangement of chronology simply for the fact that the book begins and ends focusing somewhat on Alex and Sasha. Intentional or not, Alex and Sasha are inherently the same name.
I've seen a lot of bad reviews for this book, some of which confuse me, but it's not the most amazing book ever written. It's more of a Goldilocks kind of thing. And sometimes I only want to read a Goldilocks type of book, because anything else seem like pandering to one aesthetic or the other.
If you want a book with a variable order for reading try B.S.Johnson's The Unfortunates
You won't be able to tell from this picture, but it's not actually a book, but a book-shaped box in which the chapters come in loose leaved, other than one marked "First" and one "Last" you can read them in any order.
I will put it on my list.
Looks interesting, Marc. Thanks for the tip.
I loved this book and will read it again. It might be interesting to try it in chronological order, following the list that Christopher put together. But I wonder if when the author and publisher decided the order they put it in "got the most emotional punch" out of the story, if that wasn't really a nicer way of saying, "We tried it in chronological order, first, and it just wasn't working." Also, on successive readings, the disjointedness of having the chronology mixed up will go away. I think I'd prefer that effect to rereading in a different order. Not to say it isn't a cool idea. And I'll be interested to hear how it goes for people. Maybe I'll get convinced to try it.
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Hello! I was wondering if someone could help me. I'm trying to find a page number for a quote; "Time is a goon, right? You gonna let that goon push you around?' Scotty shook his head. 'The goon won."I have skimmed all over the book and cannot find it. Help?
Kayla wrote: "Hello! I was wondering if someone could help me. I'm trying to find a page number for a quote; "Time is a goon, right? You gonna let that goon push you around?' Scotty shook his head. 'The goon won..."Hey Kayla, in my edition it's on page 332/333 (last story. It's at the bottom/top of two pages so that might be why you missed it.
Best, say quotes archives.Scotty shook his head. 'The goon won..."http://www.mustafaozcan.info/blog/
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Anyway, I've come up with this. Chances are I'm wrong somewhere, so feel free to correct me;
4/3/11/10/9/6/7/8/5/2/1/12/13
Cheers,
Mark
EDIT: Thanks to Kathy for pointing out that chapter 6 comes before 7. ;-)