12. A DISTANT MIRROR...September 5th ~ September 11th ~~ Part Two - Chapters NINETEEN and TWENTY (398 - 437) - No Spoilers Please

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Hello Everyone,

For the week of September 5th - September 11th, we are reading approximately the next 39 pages of A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Century by Barbara W. Tuchman.

The twelfth week's reading assignment is:

Week Twelve - September 5th – September 11th -> Chapters NINETEEN and TWENTY p. 398 - 437
NINETEEN – The Lure of Italy and TWENTY – A Second Norman Conquest


We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on June 20th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

There is time still remaining to obtain the book and get started.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Welcome,

~Bentley


TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL



by Barbara W. Tuchman

[Elizabeth S]

Just finished these chapters. Both of them seem full of politics and quarreling and big plans with little action. I laughed at the irony during so much of the Italy chapter. But thinking about it now, the whole thing was such a waste.

Next time I read this book, I should make a list of all the maxims and unwritten laws and such that Tuchman mentions about the 14th century. (Can I call them "unwritten laws" if I'm reading them from a book?) Some of them I've mentioned in other threads. From this week we have: "Reconnoitering terrain in advance was not part of medieval warfare because it was not part of tournaments" (page 401). The whole thing seems ridiculous. And yet it totally fits in with medieval logic.

Another one: "To put on the garment of legitimacy is the first aim of every coup" (page 399). And "The cost of war was the poison running through the 14th century" (page 412). And "For belligerent purposes, the 14th century, like the 20th, commanded a technology more sophisticated than the mental and moral capacity that guided its use" (page 426).

In general, each of these statements could be a very interesting debate as to their truth and applicability.

[Elizabeth S]

More thoughts:

I know I shouldn't have been surprised, but I was disappointed in how Coucy's army raided and plundered across Italy. He really must have been smooth tongued to be able to say "we won't hurt you" and then let his army do whatever. Wow.

I thought Tuchman's analysis of the failed Italy campaign, found on the bottom of page 412, made a lot of sense. I especially appreciated her comment that, "The 'if' asks for a modern attitude in a medieval age" (page 412). For a time when society considers itself to be inclusive and accepting, we are also very judgmental of others, asking them to have our same values and perspectives.

I thought it was funny how they got permission from both popes to make sure that the marriage was valid. Talk about covering your bases! (See page 421.)

I was intrigued by the list of heroes from history given on page 422. Some of them are unknown to me. If I have time, I'm going to look them up. Anyone think they missed someone important?

The portable wooden town sounds absolutely amazing. I would never have guessed that such a thing would have been attempted so long ago. (See page 426.)

Again, I appreciate the broader historical perspective that Tuchman gives at times. From these chapters, the biggest was the channel invasion(s). "In either direction no successful invasion of a hostile beachhead was ever carried out between 1066 and 1944" (page 431). Almost a millennium there.

[Vincent]

I am glad to be commenting on these chapters now – as far as I have read – which takes away the “fear of being a spoiler”

I was very please4d to have Coucy become a prime character again with his Arezzo adventure. I now think that Coucy was not a great fulcrum for the focus of the book but maybe the best available. Also his position makes the story more follow able for me.
Coucy seems to have good judgment as well as knowledge and success. Seems he was an impressive guy. Elizabeth mentions the “failed Italian campaign” but I bet Coucy walked/rode away with no less and likely more money than he arrived with.

I also noticed that Tuchman reinforced the validity of her presentation with the inclusion of the reference to Honore Bonet (pg. 414).

I also knew I should have read this section before vacation and I just spent a week in San Quirico d’Orcia (41 driving miles from Arezzo per Yahoo).

I visited also Sienna and Florence so I was well prepared but could have been much better prepared.
In chapter 20 I noticed two things in particular
First – the reference to the Canterbury Tales –


Geoffrey Chaucer

and my remark is that a Tuchman knows these things well enough to see the connection (maybe she read that someone else saw the connection but anyway I am impressed – and envious)

Second – the invasion preparations – whether exaggerated or not what a massive wealth to be available beyond the basics of survival for society. The concept of floating a city part of any sort (even Eisenhower didn’t do that but close with some of the platforms he towed across). It is similar to what I have always marveled at in museums, churches, and regal residences of these eras – the wealth used for art, for war and for religion – all beyond the fundamental needs of society.

Also as a point to be mentioned here is the continuous taxation and the continuous resentment/resistance to it. A politically sophisticated world is slowly, so slowly, building.

Just one more question or noticing to myself that I now share with you (while I was away I took basically my Kindle for reading so none of “our books”) and that is if George Martin who wrote the Game of Thrones series of which I read the first on this trip read this book.

)

The political/power plotting and marrying for alliance is all there. Good reading for those of us who like the Lord of the Rings too I think. (I now stop the off topic stuff)

Glad to see I am only a week behind Elizabth's last remark here

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Folks seem to be catching up Vince so you are not that very far behind.

[Elizabeth S]

Hey, I caught up to Vince! Good thing you went on vacation, Vince. :) Mary Ellen is catching up faster than I am--maybe we'll all finish about the same time.

Good point about the "failed Italian campaign." Just because the main goal was not achieved doesn't mean that individuals didn't profit from it.

Question for you, Vince: In what ways do you think "that Coucy was not a great fulcrum for the focus of the book"? I'm not disagreeing with you, just curious as to your reasons. Personally, it is seeming to me that there is a lot more focus on the second half of the century. Perhaps there are multiple reasons for this, but it seems that at least one big reason is that Coucy wasn't there in the first half. Given the span of a man/woman's lifetime, perhaps it is too ambitious to use one fulcrum for an entire century.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Great question Elizabeth.

[Vincent]

Elizabeth S wrote: "Hey, I caught up to Vince! Good thing you went on vacation, Vince. :) Mary Ellen is catching up faster than I am--maybe we'll all finish about the same time.

Good point about the "failed Italian..."

The failure of Coucy to be a "great" fulcrum does not mean that he is not the best. It is just that when he is not involved I miss that focus point using a character I am familar with. I like comfort and am a bit lazy and when he is involved I am more comfortable and it is easier.

This is very subjective to me I think.

[Elizabeth S]

Of course. I guess I was curious as to what criteria you were using for a "good" fulcrum.

Indeed, when Coucy is onstage, the book is a little more interesting and seems to have more purpose.

[Mary Ellen]

Yes, I feel like I can keep a bit of the thread in my head, so to speak, when it is Coucy's story. Otherwise, it all sort of swims before my eyes, even though I enjoy reading it all.