The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion
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Jane Eyre
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Jane Eyre 2011: Week 4 - Volume the First: Part 4 - Chapters XVIII-XX
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What do people "make" of the death of John Reed by dissipation and suicide? Despite the awfully horrid boy he had been, I found the tale quite sad and wondered what the world had been like from his perceptive to drive him to such an end.
He had led a spoiled life as a child, with his mother giving in to every whim so I expect he found the real world hard to deal with. I guess this is why we warn parents against spoiling their children and recommend various forms of discipline. From a biblical p.o.v. perhaps CB was suggesting that Proverbs 13:24 might have been a better course for Mrs Reed to follow: 'He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes'. Victorians were keen on corporal punishment for children, perhaps in accordance with the Proverb 23:14: 'Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell' and Proverb 29:15 was particularly applicable to John: 'The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.'
BunWat wrote: "He just remained the same entitled, self indulgent person he was taught to be by his mother..."Is there any significant difference between "taught to be" versus "allowed to be"?
It seems to me the text leans towards "allowed".
I don't think that self-indulgent children spring from the womb fully-formed in that regard, as it were. They acquire the habit of self-indulgence, and if they acquire it at a young age, that is generally because of the way their parents have treated them. As parents we teach our children a whole range of things - some of it consciously and some unconsciously. Mrs Reed indulged John. He in turn became self-indulgent. I think it is quite fair to say that he was taught to be self-indulgent by his mother.
Kim wrote: "Mrs Reed indulged John. He in turn became self-indulgent. I think it is quite fair to say that he was taught to be self-indulgent by his mother."Fair enough. I would also submit that arrogant self-indulgent behavior has long been allowed by society especially for men with access to certain levels of resources. Women often have largely been expected to stand clear.
CB even gives other glimpses of it (arrogant self-indulgent behavior) in different forms in Brocklehurst and Rochester.
Also pertinent here to John and Mrs. Reed's relationship would likely be her position as a widow in a male dominated strata of society -- it would have been only too easy for Mrs. Reed to treat John as "master of the house" at too young an age. That can be simultaneously over-demanding and indulgent -- a difficult place for a young person to acquire maturity and yet have space for healthy rebellion.
We may have overlapped, BunWat. I am just reading your comments now. I agree with your statements about enable and facilitate. However, I don't know if Mrs. Reed's behavior was only indulgence; I think it may take a savvy young widow to not over rely on a son and my sense of Mrs. Reed is that she could readily have fallen into the trap.
Lily wrote: "WHowever, I don't know if Mrs. Reed's behavior was only indulgence; I think it may take a savvy young widow to not over rely on a son and my sense of Mrs. Reed is that she could readily have fallen into the trap. ."That's a nice point. In a patriarchal society, Jon would on his maturity become the head of the family and in many ways have significant control over her (assuming she didn't remarry) including, probably, control of the family money and purse strings Her relationship with him had to be a bit, uh, interesting.
BunWat wrote: "...just being a badly behaved domineering little ass...."ROFLOL!
BunWat wrote: "...I can also see a lot of John Reed's bad behavior toward his mother and toward Jane as his childish attempt to be 'the man of the house.'...."Thx, BunWat. You catch another aspect of the possible difficulties John experienced.
(Eman, I recognize some of these dynamics from my own widowhood and my subsequent reading about its challenges and potential pitfalls.)
BunWat -- our comments cross again. I was attempting to touch more on the difficulty and loneliness of making decisions all alone after being accustomed to at least share responsibility. I think between us and among us all we are touching a lot of the relevant territory.
Unfortunately, I think that any parent can have difficult children or just one child who is difficult, irrespective of their parenting skills. Parenting is a minefield whatever you do or do not do. There may be something to be said for the old Irish tribal custom of sending the eldest son to another tribe to be brought up or maybe the upper class practice of sending boys away to boarding school, or to be boy soldiers, has its merits. Nor does a life of poverty seem to be better than a life of indulgence.I count myself lucky to have brought four children reasonably successfully as a single parent (I didn't remarry until they were out of their teens) and consider that being alone was often an advantage because their loyalty to and sympathy for me helped to keep them on track, particularly when it came to helping with household chores and being thrifty. That same family loyalty also drew them together and created a lasting bond.
Mrs Reed may have been a bad parent whatever her circumstances, perhaps more due to her character, her meanness of spirit, than to the methods she employed.
Tango wrote: "The idea of not letting oneself (especially for a young woman) be ruled/overcome by emotion is a common theme in gothic fiction such The Mysteries of Udolpho. This does seem to be a th..."I was just re-running through the posts on this thread and caught this one of yours, Tango. Thanks for it.
Susan wrote: "...As far as getting the research on the brain into "common parlance", I believe the media will do a great job of this once they get wind of it. They always do, don't they? ..."I wish the media always did a great job once they get wind of solid research and results. Unfortunately, politics, personal sensitivities of journalists, editorial policies, and the complexity of results still often slow the dissemination of knowledge. But, then again, maybe that isn't always negative, but appropriate testing, even if the processes slow change.
The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910
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The Mysteries of Udolpho (other topics)The Mysteries of Udolpho (other topics)
Despite the good news that Jane may be an heiress in this chapter there are several deaths - of Bessie's little sister, of John Reed and of Aunt Reed and the chapter begins ominously in moonlight, with presentiments and dreams. Aunt Reed died still hating Jane. There is a feeling of gloom at the end of the chapter and Jane felt a 'sombre tearless dismay at the fearfulness of death in such a form'. So although we have learned that Jane may have a benevolent uncle somewhere, some of the omens are not good at this stage of the tale and gothic elements prevail - the nightmares of both Jane and Mrs Reed and Jane's supernatural drawings of 'a naiad's head, crowned with lotus-flowers, rising out of them; an elf sitting in a hedge-sparrow's nest, under a wreath of hawthorn-bloom'. There is an old English saying that 'Hawthorn bloom and elder flowers will fill the house with evil powers' However, the Lotus flower has more hopeful symbolism: 'The flower grows in muddy water and rises above the surface to bloom with remarkable beauty. At night the flower closes and sinks underwater, at dawn it rises and opens again. Untouched by the impurity, lotus symbolizes the purity of heart and mind. The lotus flower represents long life, health, honor and good luck.' There are a lot of mixed images here, for good and for ill. It would seem that, despite the burgeoning love between herself and Rochester, Jane's still has more perils to face on her bildungsroman.