The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion
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Jane Eyre
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Jane Eyre 2011: Week 4 - Volume the First: Part 4 - Chapters XVIII-XX
I have one more point. Is there any distinction between Jane in the story and the older one who's telling us her story perhaps years later? Is she viewing her younger self correctly? I'm thinking of Rebecca, greatly influenced by this book, and the older and wiser Mrs. deW who narrates her own story.
Rochelle wrote: "I have one more point. Is there any distinction between Jane in the story and the older one who's telling us her story perhaps years later? Is she viewing her younger self correctly? I'm thinking o..."I think that there is definitely a distinction between the two Janes. As the novel is written as a memoir and not as a diary, the older Jane looking back on her younger self has had time to reflect on her own character, motivation and actions as well as those of the other major players in her life. How she narrates the story of her younger self is influenced by her subsequent life experiences. But for all that I believe that Charlotte Bronte meant readers to see Jane the narrator as a character trying to portray her younger self truthfully and accurately. If there is occasionally a disconnect between the two Janes, that rings true to me. No matter how hard we try to accurately recount the stories of our younger selves, our subsequent experiences always change the narrative in subtle or not so subtle ways.
Just to say that I am following the discussion with great interest (and largely agree with Susan in particular) but can't do much posting because I have strained my shoulder badly and am in pain.
MadgeUK wrote: "Just to say that I am following the discussion with great interest (and largely agree with Susan in particular) but can't do much posting because I have strained my shoulder badly and am in pain."Oh no, Madge! I had wondered where you'd gone! I hope you feel better soon, or at least get something for the pain. :(
Lily wrote: "I haven't been staying on top of it, but what I have been seeing coming out of brain research is that emotions and reasoning are often closely linked and that what we are accustomed to calling "emo..."Lily: I referred to the men not banishing the words "feel" from their language, and women feeling as though they had to ban the word or be thought too emotional.
As far as getting the research on the brain into "common parlance", I believe the media will do a great job of this once they get wind of it. They always do, don't they?
Good post 62 from Rochelle and post 64 from Kim:). I had pointed out earlier that the narration of the earlier part of the novel at Lowood is based on CB's own experiences and that those experiences were confirmed by others who were at that school but her experiences at Thornfield [Correction!], and her 'romance' with Rochester are not based on anything more than an unrequited crush on her Belgian Professor, so the narration is bound to be different, one being more 'reliable' than the other. That's all for today - the doc says I have a 'frozen' shoulder which may or may not recur:(. Now have some strong painkillers so will hope to get some pain free periods from tomorrow.
MadgeUK wrote: "Good post 62 from Rochelle and post 64 from Kim:). I had pointed out earlier that the narration of the earlier part of the novel at Lowood is based on CB's own experiences and that those experience..."I'm so sorry to hear about your shoulder, Madge. I know just how painful a frozen shoulder is and I hope the pain eases very soon.
I'm wondering whether the fact that the Lowood part of Jane's life is based on CB's own experiences and the Rochester part is not (or at least not in the same sense) really makes Jane's character and role as a narrator less reliable.* After all, don't all novelists use their own experiences to inform and enrich the work of their imagination? As long as the protagonist is internally consistent - or as long as the protagonist's inconsistencies can be explained in the context of the narrative - can the narrative really be described as unreliable because it is not all based on fact?
*Madge - I'm not at all suggesting that this is your position, but I'm interested in what's meant by unreliable narration in the context of this novel.
Kim-I think it can go either way. A narrator telling a true story from experience can be unreliable because of having a certain, very real reaction to that experience, and thus possibly forgetting things or misremembering them. On the other hand, a person telling a fictional story has not been completely immersed themselves in the story, so therefore relies completely on imagination for the narration.
Looking back on our previous discussion of Jane Eyre, Emotionality, and Feminism, I think we could say that it is a complicated issue and would require a great deal of research to really get at the heart of this problem.Maybe we could look at the novel in a different way. The way I see it there are some dichotomies developing:
reserve vs. openness
repression vs. self-expression
conformity vs. individualism
Perhaps we could take a look at how the novel relates to the Gothic tradition. For instance, how does Jane "fit" within the genre? Is she the typical Gothic heroine? How are her reactions to Rochester both typical and atypical of how a Gothic heroine would react? Looking back to earlier Gothic heroines, isn't emotionality and repression a danger to the Gothic heroine? What about the traditional epistolary heroine and their relation to the idea of "the abandoned woman"? Isn't this abandoned woman traditionally both rejected and thought unrestrained due to some action of impropriety?
also, from what I have read, isn't the novel Jane Eyre at the tail end of the Gothic period? Could Bronte be taking this genre in a different direction, maybe as a bridge to a new way of thinking?
Rochelle wrote: "LI think we're getting carried away here with modern research. We're discussing how the Victorians viewed men and women, not what we know now. And women were thought to be more highly emotional than men, and incapable of learning intellectual pursuits. That's why they were kept out of places of higher learning and just about any profession you could think of."
I don't mind seeing people using an older book as a springboard for discussing modern ideas as long as we are clear that we are doing just that, and don't attribute any of the modern ways of looking at things to the original author or her (or his) times. But I do agree that judging a work or author by criticizing it because it doesn't conform to modern points of view is unfair to the author.
Susan wrote: "Looking back on our previous discussion of Jane Eyre, Emotionality, and Feminism, I think we could say that it is a complicated issue and would require a great deal of research to really get at the..."The way I see it there are some dichotomies developing:
reserve vs. openness
repression vs. self-expression
conformity vs. individualism
Susan, I really like your suggestion. I think all 3 of these dichotomies are important conflicts presented in the book (and within Jane). One of the things I love most about this book is being able to watch Jane grow as she struggles with these conflicts. In many ways, this book feels Gothic, but I think CB ultimately goes beyond the genre.
Madge--I hope you're feeling better soon!
MadgeUK wrote: "Just to say that I am following the discussion with great interest (and largely agree with Susan in particular) but can't do much posting because I have strained my shoulder badly and am in pain."Oh dear. That's NOT a fun condition.
The more I get on in years, and associate more frequently with those getting on in years, the more I understand and agree with the saying that"old age is not for sissies."
I'm not sure what is meant by modern ideas? Surely we can only read this novel from a modern perspective, as that is the only perspective we have. I can try and imagine what it might be like to be a Victorian woman from what I know of the era - but that's all. Some ideas are timeless however, such as the feeling of frustration that Jane feels on the battlements and the love that she feels for Rochester. I don't think CB or any of the authors of that time could have imagined in their wildest dreams, how the position of women (in our western societies at least) has changed so dramatically in 150 years. CB is limited in the choices she can give Jane, which I can elaborate on later.My reading of the novel (definitely modern) screams out lack of choice, confinement, repression etc. But I'm not so sure women in the 1840s would have the same reading experience as me.
Bronte's book is a window into Victorian society but my interpretation of it can only be a 21st century one.
I think this novel conforms to many of the Gothic features of Literature Susan - might be better to list them all later.
BunWat wrote: "Just to take one example, her use of phrenology as a part of her characterization. We may find that to be a pseudo science but it wasn't widely considered one in her time. ..."
I agree, BW. Another example might be attitudes towards race and class.
BunWat wrote: "ut when we evaluate Charlotte's work we can't expect her to have the benefit of knowledge or experience to which there is simply no way she could have access."Right. Or of social or psychological or sociological concept, insights, and beliefs which weren't available to her at the time.
Lynnm wrote: "...Woolf was fairly clear in "A Room of One's Own" that we shouldn't criticize women in the past for not meeting modern standards..."I don't know if Woolf makes the distinction, but it seems to me that there is a big difference between judging across time or cultures (e.g., "meeting modern standards") versus observing across time or cultures based on knowledge that was as true then as it is now, but is knowledge unknown to that time or culture. E.g., psychological concepts today generally accepted as "true" but not articulated until the 20th century can be applied to the Iliad, Antigone, Jane Austen, Jane Eyre, Henry James, ..., but perhaps not until we get to D. H. Lawrence and his peers can we expect the authors to have been familiar with those concepts.
Being an "unreliable narrator" versus an "omniscient one" can simply mean seeing only limited perspectives of the truth versus all perspectives that are relevant. It doesn't necessarily mean that what is seen or presented is wrong or untrue. But is a large part of why a first person narrator is inherently unreliable versus what an omniscient narrator is expected to be.
BunWat wrote: "I think what is meant Georgie, is that its of course reasonable to read the novel as a modern person, as you say, how else could we read it? But when we evaluate Charlotte's work we can't expect h..."Yes, I certainly agree with your example BunWat. Just as we can only read it from a 21st century position, she can only write from an early Victorian one.
Lily wrote: "Lynnm wrote: "...Woolf was fairly clear in "A Room of One's Own" that we shouldn't criticize women in the past for not meeting modern standards..."I don't know if Woolf makes the distinction, but..."
I really think Woolf is only judging the writing for what it is, hence the observation that CB breaks away from Jane's character. I guess these observations are always easier in hindsight and with a succession of writers to compare them to.
Everyman wrote: The more I get on in years, and associate more frequently with those getting on in years, the more I understand and agree with the saying that"old age is not for sissies.True Everyman and the more I agree with Dylan Thomas' poem to his father:-
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Under the influence of strong painkillers:): One of the things we have not perhaps considered with regard to Jane's feelings is that as a governess she could not have entertained the notion (except in her dreams) of marrying a Rochester. We can contemplate marrying anyone (as Katherine Middleton has recently done!:D) but Jane's thinking on this matter would have been constricted by her upbringing, her religion and custom. Having 'ideas beyond your station' was a taboo amounting to blasphemy. Even her jealous thoughts could come into this category and might be considered as sinful. Victorian readers would have perceived these passages as shocking for that reason. It is this taboo element which I see as likely to inculcate a reserve in her, despite her inherent feistiness. It also makes it likely that her narration about these scenes is unreliable because of the struggle she would have had with these emotions. (In catholic terminology the thoughts she had would be venial sins, logismoi, which are linked to the seven deadly sins, in this case pride.)On the subject of Jane lying, I think that CB, a clergyman's daughter, would not have created a largely autobiographical heroine who lied. If she did do so it would be to show thje error of that sin and retribution of some kind would follow. As a heroine on a bildungsroman, a Progress, Jane must rise above her temptations and 'come good'. She must also rise above the sins of others. viz Blanche and Rochester.
Georgie wrote: "I'm not sure what is meant by modern ideas? .."The discussion had drifted to the modern roles of women and men and modern research in this area, which is irrelevant to this book. I was just trying to veer the discussion back toward the Victorian period. Of course, in coming in so late tonight (3 AM here,) it's already been chewed upon for many hours
MadgeUK wrote: "On the subject of Jane lying, I think that CB, a clergyman's daughter, would not have created a largely autobiographical heroine who lied. ..."But her sister created a book with a selfish, immature heroine and an unsavory hero, or rather male protagonist with no redeeming qualities. But it wasn't autobiographical.
I think the autobiographical element is important. WH is much more a work of fantasy in its entirety than either JE or Agnes Grey. Indeed Emily's contemporaries wondered where on earth she could have got her characters from and CB commented on this in her Preface to the second edition:-http://www.thegreatbooks.org/library/...
What great posts!You have to start from the text, and if there's evidence in the text of unreliability then fair enough. Otherwise you're just playing games.
I agree but having dealt with the text, if there are still inconsistencies or unbelievable elements, we can then look at the author's 'text'. In CB's case we know that the descriptions of Lowood, however harrowing, were accurate because they were borne out by others. We can also look at the text from the p.o.v. of social history and what was written about similar subjects at the time - as with the numerous accounts of the lives of governesses.
Just as 'no man is an island entire of itself' nor is the text of a novel entire of itself. It has 'baggage' as we would say nowadays:).
Lily wrote: ...but perhaps not until we get to D. H. Lawrence and his peers can we expect the authors to have been familiar with those concepts.Although psychological concepts became better defined in the late 19th early 20th century, the way people behave has not changed significantly and the ancient Greeks in their writing about the way 'humours' affected people came to some similar conclusions. (Aristotle wrote the first Western treatise on psychology, Para Psyche.) Dosteovsky too was surprisingly accurate in his analysis of his characters and is thought to have pre-Freuded Freud. Some authors just seem to have more insight into the human character than others, just as some people do, whether or not they study psychology. I am not inclined to think that CB was one of these however, because I do not think her life experience would have made her a good judge of character. I feel that to analyse people fairly accurately you need to have known a wide array of people in different circumstances upon which to base your judgements. (Although I suppose it could be a knack you are born with.) Perhaps this lack of insight on CB's part makes Jane unreliable when it comes to judging those around her?
(As some of you know, I take in lodgers to supplement my income and people have often remarked to me that I have been 'lucky' in over 12 years + 50 lodgers that I have not taken in 'scoundrels' of any kind. I respond that I do not think it is luck at all because I think I have become a good judge of character due to my having travelled since girlhood and having had work which brought me into contact with a broad spectrum of society.)
MadgeUK wrote: "I feel that to analyse people fairly accurately you need to have known a wide array of people in different circumstances upon which to base your judgements. (Although I suppose it could be a knack you are born with.) Perhaps this lack of insight on CB's part makes Jane unreliable when it comes to judging those around her? "Madge, in principle I think that you're entirely right. However, even if CB wasn't a good judge of character (and I really have no view on that) I'm not convinced that Jane is unreliable in judging those around her. I think her views about other characters are generally pretty accurate - not perfect, but within an acceptable range. (Or maybe it's just that I'm prepared to trust her judgement about the other characters seeing as we have no choice but to see them through her eyes!).
PS. I am loving this discussion. It's made me think more about Jane Eyre than I ever have before!
I am prepared to trust her too Kim but as I have said I am very sympathetic towards both CB and JE - after all they were both Yorkshirewomen!:D. Yes, it is an excellent discussion. Thanks everyone and Kudos!
I wonder whether D H Lawrence's words are relevant here "Never trust the teller, trust the tale."
Probably:)But sometimes the tale is so well known that it brings its own baggage. JE has been out there for over 150 years. Hardly anyone here will not have encountered it on a school syllabus, in film, on TV, in a journalistic piece, in conversations etc. So in looking at the text we are likely to have preconceptions of one sort or another, whether we realise it or not. Once read or seen we cannot unread or unsee and even if we re-evaluate we do it with earlier baggage in the luggage hold of our minds.
As a lawyer working in a role where I have to assess the credibility of witnesses on a daily basis, trusting the tale rather than the teller is really relevant to me! But I agree with you, Madge, that we come to well-known tales with baggage. Also, sometimes it's very difficult to separate the teller from the tale! I think that with this re-read some of my pre-conceptions about Jane Eyre have changed. This is in part because of my interest in this discussion and in part because I've listened to it on audiobook. I've literally heard things in the novel which I have never paid attention to before. Absorbing the narrative through my ears rather than through my eyes seems to have made me approach the novel in a fresh way.
MadgeUK wrote: "Probably:)But sometimes the tale is so well known that it brings its own baggage. JE has been out there for over 150 years. Hardly anyone here will not have encountered it on a school syllabus,..."
I agree, Madge, which is why I was happy this discussion was so spread out. When read slowly, and of course pretending we don't know what will happen next, we can appreciate the novel in a different way. I know my perspectives have changed with this reading, and for some reason, reading slowly has made me forget the plot a bit and am surprised by each twist. (or maybe it's just my aging brain :) )
Christina wrote: "Susan wrote: "Looking back on our previous discussion of Jane Eyre, Emotionality, and Feminism, I think we could say that it is a complicated issue and would require a great deal of research to rea..."Thanks, Christina. I also wanted to add to my last post: I mentioned comparing Jane Eyre to epistolary novels and their heroines. A good example of this is Samuel Richardson's Paamela, for those of you who are familiar with this novel. If not, here's a synopsis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamela,_...
I took a course in 17th and 18th century women writers last year. It was an intensive reading of writers such as Aphra Behn, Eliza Heywood, Frances Burney, Anne Radcliffe, Mary Wollstonecraft, and Jane Austen. If it is problematic to go backwards in time from feminism as we know it today, perhaps it would be useful to go forward in time from those works older works that may have influenced Bronte. I see many similarities and differences between Jane Eyre and Pamela, even from what we know at this point in the novel.
Georgie wrote: "I'm not sure what is meant by modern ideas? Surely we can only read this novel from a modern perspective, as that is the only perspective we have. I can try and imagine what it might be like to b..."I think if we keep the Gothic in the back of our mind as we continue to read, we will be pleasantly surprised by Bronte's take on the genre, as well as her take on the epistolary heroine. I wanted to bring this up now so it is out there to be discussed :).
Ah the wonderful Gothic! Thornfield itself in this section. Many wonderful images of its original here:- (view spoiler)
And at the beginning of the section there was Gytrash '...close down by the hazel stems glided a great dog...it was exactly one form of Bessie’s Gytrash—a lion-like creature with long hair and a huge head':-
http://elswet.50megs.com/beasts/Gytra...
And of course at the start of the novel we had the ghostly apparition in the Red Room, the possible ghost of her uncle. However, for Bronte the gothic was not just buildings or landscape but people and the 'uncanniness' of the domestic scenes in which they lived. Freud described the uncanny (heimlich), the concealed hidden secret, as the taboo state of something which gives rise to the commonplace assumption that that which is hidden from public eye must be a dangerous threat and even an 'abomination' (the face under the bhurka?) - especially if the concealed item is obviously or presumingly sexual in nature. We see a lot of the uncanny in JE (and, incidentally in Villette). (view spoiler)
CB was one of the first novelists to bring the gothic out of the castles and ruins of Europe to the eerie landscape and old buildings of her native Yorkshire. Having walked the North Yorkshire Moors on stormy nights and seen those ruins looming in the dark, I can well appreciate why. Perhaps after reading Otranto or Udolpho, she might have felt 'I can do better than that'!:O.
Emily too had used the gothic in Wuthering Heights and this eerie scene of Top Withens, where it was supposedly situated, was well known to the sisters:-
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs22/i/200...
interesting info, Madge. Looks like you are able to type now, so hope that you're better. I like the photo of the battlements at North Lees. It is pretty close to what I had pictured in my mind's eye while reading the scene of Jane on the battlements.
Sorry, was editing Susan, to add Top Withens. I am typing between painkillers!
great photo! Never been to Yorkshire, but it is top on my list when I get back to England!
Just realized that The Hound of the Baskervilles was in the Devonshire moors! My mistake, so I edited my post #100 out. i thought they were the Yorkshire Moors while watching the film.
MadgeUK wrote: "Ah the wonderful Gothic! Thornfield itself in this section. Many wonderful images of its original here:- [spoilers removed]
And at the beginning of the section there was Gytrash '...close down..."
Thanks, Madge!
When I'm in England next summer, Yorkshire is a definite on my list of places to visit.
Susan wrote: "Just realized that The Hound of the Baskervilles was in the Devonshire moors! My mistake, so I edited my post #100 out. i thought they were the Yorkshire Moors while watching the film."Yes, same sort of atmosphere though - the Yorkshire Moors are more rugged than those in Devon, there is more rock outcrop and the winds from the North Sea are stronger and colder.
Funk! just lost a lengthy post. Will try to summarize: a) I agree with Kim that Jane seems a reasonably reliable judge of character, although Jane certainly is not a detective when it comes to that third floor! b) Also, that inconsistencies perhaps due to the older narrator looking back on her younger life seem plausible. c) Listening rather than reading opens up an entirely new vista, which I have been doing primarily, although I also have been enjoying an illustrated version picked up from a university bookstore remainders table. d) I too am thoroughly enjoying this conversation.
MadgeUK wrote: "Lily wrote: '...but perhaps not until we get to D. H. Lawrence and his peers can we expect the authors to have been familiar with those concepts.'Although psychological concepts became better defined in the late 19th early 20th century, the way people behave has not changed significantly and the ancient Greeks in their writing about the way 'humours' affected people came to some similar conclusions..."
We can discuss at another time and place whether the ways people behave have changed significantly, but it is probably precisely because they have not that "new" concepts can sometimes be applied "backwards", even though the writers themselves could not have been expected to have been aware of the "new concepts". In fact, in some cases, the new concepts may have had their genesis in/from those earlier works.
Later, it might be interesting to look at some of the recent sociological studies of abused women and see if they provide insights to the dynamics of JE, or vice versa.
Lily wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "Lily wrote: '...but perhaps not until we get to D. H. Lawrence and his peers can we expect the authors to have been familiar with those concepts.'Although psychological concepts b..."
Lily, I am totally with you on this one. Literature has played a big role in promoting changes in society and our present "modern" views on things, so why can't be discussed in this way with this being understood.
I'm not sure about behavior changing with the times, but I do think that human nature has remained static.
BunWat wrote: "Lily wrote: "We can discuss at another time and place whether the ways people behave have changed significantly, but it is probably precisely because they have not that..."Hee hee, well I guess that would be a short discussion..."
LOL! You may underestimate Madge and me (as well as the others on this board)!
As for Susan's comment about the distinctions between the stability of human behavior versus the stability of human nature, there alone is probably gist for at least 50 posts?
BunWat wrote: "You missed my point, Lily. I was laughing (I hope in a friendly fashion) at the way in which you said we could discuss whether behavior had changed and then only a few words later in the same sent..."Guess we are missing the facial expressions to see the irony and humor thrown in from the get go! I'll just chuckle.
Literature has played a big role in promoting changes in society and our present "modern" views on things, so why can't be discussed in this way with this being understood.BTW I wasn't suggesting it can't be discussed. All is grist to the mill as long as we keep reasonably on topic and don't go over old ground too much:).
Help! I don't know where we are in this reading because my Kindle copy of JE only has Chapter Numbers. At which chapter does Volume the first end and Volume the second begin? Online versions only give chapter numbers too.http://www.online-literature.com/bron...
There are couple of things I want to post but I'm afraid they might be spoilers.
When folks were commenting on Jane's jealousy of Blanche Ingram for instance, which chapter were they referring to? Have we got to the gipsy fortune telling yet?
The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910
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The Mysteries of Udolpho (other topics)The Mysteries of Udolpho (other topics)
I think we're getting carried away here with modern research. We're discussing how the Victorians viewed men and women, not what we know now. And women were thought to be more highly emotional than men, and incapable of learning intellectual pursuits. That's why they were kept out of places of higher learning and just about any profession you could think of.
Jane is afraid that if her emotions rule her, she'll fit into the Victorian stereotype of women and lose her credibility.