The Picture of Dorian Gray
discussion
A General discussion on TPoDG
Hmm, yes, but how is that thematized in the novel? In a way, Lord Henry is the very public man but we never get to know his private persona, while Basil is very private. I guess since Lord Henry is very public and seems inmoral while Basil is private and remains a good man, untainted by society, that a hidden message could be that the effect of public life, vanity, etc. can be altering and replace one's better natural instincts as one strives for acknowledgment and popularity
I love love love The picture of Dorian Gray but it's been a while since I read it, so I'll quietly sit in the corner until I have something to say.
I was never quite sure about Henry. He was constantly advocating the benefits of an immoral livf. To me he came across as a little devil sitting on Dorian’s shoulder, whispering the virtues of wickedness. I always had the impression that he didn't live by what he preached. (view spoiler) While he did age didn't become ugly like Dorian.
The love between the men was very pointed, or maybe I was reading too much into it, as I knew that Oscar was gay.
Thanks for bringing up who the audience was Bunwat. I am really not that familiar with the time period the book was set in. Without that reference, my second question doesn't have much relevance.
Basil was very private. He appeared to be the tool used to bring about the beginning and end of Dorians curse.
How much do you think Dorian was responsible for his own fate?
The love between the men was very pointed, or maybe I was reading too much into it, as I knew that Oscar was gay.
Thanks for bringing up who the audience was Bunwat. I am really not that familiar with the time period the book was set in. Without that reference, my second question doesn't have much relevance.
Basil was very private. He appeared to be the tool used to bring about the beginning and end of Dorians curse.
How much do you think Dorian was responsible for his own fate?
I personally believe that everybody are responsible for their own fate, having the right and power to judge and choose their paths themselves, but still Dorian was 'pure' and 'innocent' before Lord Henry crossed his path - so Henry is responsible as he influences Dorian, while Dorian is responsible as he chooses (even unconsciuosly)how to react to his influence either by following his example or keeping a safe distance
That was my belief as well. Dorian was constantly looking to others to blame for the path he followed. Henry, Basil, the book Henry gave him. He even blamed Syble for not being around to save his soul. It was only when he recognised the initial change in the picture that he even considered he might have acted poorly toward her. The picture was a direct window into his soul. Shouldn't this have been a deterrent? He may have been innocent initially, but he was very quick and eager to embrace the immoral life. He took it to an all new level. Beyond even what Henry could possibly imagine.
Absolutely:-)You wrote: "I would get a lot more from it discussing it with more well informed people", but I think you have enough in yourself, you are very well informed and observant. This isn't pointless flattery, I do wonder what you want to know or find out, through discussing, and then see if I can be any help at all
I guess when I read books. I feel like I take a very shallow view of them. I really look to other people to fill in the gaps. Thank you so much for joining in. If there are any questions you would like to throw up for discussion they would be very much appreciated. The more discussion we have, the more time I spend thinking about the book, the more I get out of the experience.
Aaw, me too:-) I guess what I am most interested in right now is the biographical aspect, I've heard some comments about how Dorian, Lord Henry and Basil all represent different aspects of Wilde's character, which is extremely interesting.Also, I wonder about the consequences of Dorian's death, what will happen next? Will Lord Henry discover the picture, realize what has happended and alter his own ways?
And since Dorian is beyond redemption, will Lord Henry regret his actions and maybe start preaching the Victorian morals while telling the frightful tell of how 'his young friend' were led astray?
While I knew the story line. This was the first time I had read it. The abrupt ending caught me by surprise. I loved it.
I am very interested in the biographical aspect as well. I want more. Bunwat I'm sure once she joins in again will be able to shed more light. As it is, it's time for me to say good night. :)
I am very interested in the biographical aspect as well. I want more. Bunwat I'm sure once she joins in again will be able to shed more light. As it is, it's time for me to say good night. :)
Yes, it was a very surprising ending, but it suited the mood of the story well in a way, and leaves the reader pining for more. I hope so;) Good night to you too (in DK it's only 3 pm though)
Anyone liked the movie?
I think there are several movies, but I haven't seen them. Have you seen one?
Nop. I was asking about the one on 2009 or 2010 with the same guy that plays prince Caspian (Narnia) and the one that plays in Kings Speech. I want to rent it.
Unfortunately, I haven't seen any of the movie adaptions yet, but I think the one with Colin Firth starring as Lord Henry, is a quite altered version of the novel, but still the core of the story remaisn the same
Well if i get to see it this weekend ill let you know how was it.
Have you read any biographies of Oscar Wilde Bun? Ones you would recommend?
BunWat wrote: "In a letter, Oscar Wilde wrote,Basil Hallward is what I think I am: Lord Henry what the world thinks me: Dorian what I would like to be — in other ages, perhaps.
This is interesting to me. ..."
I am sure that you can find bits and pieces of O. Wilde's personality in all his main characters in the novel. And definitely as it was mentioned earlier in this discussion it is hard not to spot the elephant in the room, that is the hidden message of homosexuality in the novel. It is especially obvious when we learn about Lord Henry's attitudes towards marriage and when Basil nearly owns up about his feelings towards Dorian.
Concerning the second question I personally believe that artists are free to express their artistic views in the ways and manners they find appropriate. Sometimes I am even blasphemously ready to declare that art (literature in particular) has nothing to do with social morals and norm. One is the world of fiction and imagination, while the other is a conventional set of rules to facilitate and improve co-existence in a human community.
Melissa wrote: "Nop. I was asking about the one on 2009 or 2010 with the same guy that plays prince Caspian (Narnia) and the one that plays in Kings Speech. I want to rent it."
I saw that the 2009 vision has Colin Firth in it. I must hire it as well for my mild CF obsession apart from anything else. :D
I saw that the 2009 vision has Colin Firth in it. I must hire it as well for my mild CF obsession apart from anything else. :D
Gabby wrote: "Gail «Cyborg» wrote: "I was never quite sure about Henry. He was constantly advocating the benefits of an immoral live. To me he came across as a little devil sitting on Dorian’s shoulder, whisperi..."
I wasn't really trying to imply that I though Henry was the devil. You know those little scenarios you see on TV where a cartoon character conscience pops onto your shoulder who argues with the positive influence, persuading you to take the bad but fun path. I don't believe evil exists. To me it is a much over used term and obviously no one is truly innocent.
I wasn't really trying to imply that I though Henry was the devil. You know those little scenarios you see on TV where a cartoon character conscience pops onto your shoulder who argues with the positive influence, persuading you to take the bad but fun path. I don't believe evil exists. To me it is a much over used term and obviously no one is truly innocent.
Haha, me too:-D Colin Firth is outstanding in period dramas, so it is definitely worth watching the movie for his sake
Melissa wrote: "Nop. I was asking about the one on 2009 or 2010 with the same guy that plays prince Caspian (Narnia) and the one that plays in Kings Speech. I want to rent it."
I know which one you're referring to. I've seen it and it was quite good. I liked it. This film does a good job at portraying the vice, immorality and stripping of innocence. It does a good job at standing up to the novel; although, the novel is still better! :) But, a very good adaptation.
I know which one you're referring to. I've seen it and it was quite good. I liked it. This film does a good job at portraying the vice, immorality and stripping of innocence. It does a good job at standing up to the novel; although, the novel is still better! :) But, a very good adaptation.
BunWat wrote: "In a letter, Oscar Wilde wrote,
Basil Hallward is what I think I am: Lord Henry what the world thinks me: Dorian what I would like to be — in other ages, perhaps.
This is interesting to me. ..."
Yes, that seems a confusing statement. I can't imagine why he wants to be like Dorian either. There are terrible consequences for Dorian's behavior. He becomes miserable. Oh Oscar is so confusing!
Basil Hallward is what I think I am: Lord Henry what the world thinks me: Dorian what I would like to be — in other ages, perhaps.
This is interesting to me. ..."
Yes, that seems a confusing statement. I can't imagine why he wants to be like Dorian either. There are terrible consequences for Dorian's behavior. He becomes miserable. Oh Oscar is so confusing!
Lord Henry might be a bad influence, but pretty much everything he says cracks me up! He would be fun at a party! Dangerous too, it would appear.
BunWat wrote: "Apparently the homosexuality was less hidden in the first version of the novel, which appeared in Lippincott's magazine, but due to complaints about its "immorality" Wilde made some changes before ..."
Less? Excellent. Well, not excellent that he had to revise it. I felt there was only a thin veneer disguising the homosexuality aspect, but was unsure whether, in that time period, men were more likely to express love for each other, as was the case in this book.
Less? Excellent. Well, not excellent that he had to revise it. I felt there was only a thin veneer disguising the homosexuality aspect, but was unsure whether, in that time period, men were more likely to express love for each other, as was the case in this book.
I've been to the Reading prision he was in, not as a prisoner, but as a tourist lol.
2. What if any responsibility do artists have to convey good morals to their audience
I don't think artists have really any responsibility to convey good morals to their audience. I think by depicting an evil, corrupt person and the consequences of such actions they are showing the affects of corruption. I think showing the bad side of humanity is just as good of a tool as showing the good side of humanity. Artists don't have to show good morals to convey them. I hope that makes sense!
Basil and Henry were like the good and bad angels on Dorian's shoulder. He was more susceptible to vice and intrigued by all things new. Wilde did a great job in portraying morality vs. vice and its consequences.
2. What if any responsibility do artists have to convey good morals to their audience
I don't think artists have really any responsibility to convey good morals to their audience. I think by depicting an evil, corrupt person and the consequences of such actions they are showing the affects of corruption. I think showing the bad side of humanity is just as good of a tool as showing the good side of humanity. Artists don't have to show good morals to convey them. I hope that makes sense!
Basil and Henry were like the good and bad angels on Dorian's shoulder. He was more susceptible to vice and intrigued by all things new. Wilde did a great job in portraying morality vs. vice and its consequences.
Next Question
I was concerned throughout the book by the negativity expressed toward women. Was this just a tool used to express vice, Oscars general attitude toward women, or more of a reflection of the attitude of that period?
I was concerned throughout the book by the negativity expressed toward women. Was this just a tool used to express vice, Oscars general attitude toward women, or more of a reflection of the attitude of that period?
I cannot say whether this was Oscar's attitude as I don’t have sufficient knowledge of him at all, however, I believe it was the common attitude of the time. Women were believed to be less capable than men, limited by their sex to being no more than mothers, daughters and sisters. Also, society was very hard upon how women could behave – the ideal Victorian woman should be pure, innocent, ignorant, domestic, and only cater the cares of the men in her family – she was their property. Thus, in TPoDG there are portrayed different sorts of women who all are restricted by the social norms. Sibyl is of the lower class and cannot rise in the social strata despite her talent; her only hope is to rise through marriage, which is also very difficult as the upper class shouldn’t mingle with the lower. As she meets Dorian it seems that there is hope for her, but ultimately Dorian tires of her, perhaps finally realizing that is ‘improper’ and ‘below him’ to marry her. The Duchess is in the other end of spectra; she is rich and fortunately married, but still in spite of her status her intellect isn’t acknowledged because of her sex, her witty remarks and clever observations aren’t esteemed in the same way as Lord Henry’s, for instance.
Hello there Gail! I think this is a question that would resurface were you to read some other late Victorian and early twentieth century British novels as well. Oscar Wilde was kind to women, and I have read much about him. I can't seem to recall any instance which would make it manifest that he considered women to be inferior in intellect, or a nuisance to the persuasion of higher goals. Although in Dorian Gray we see instances of these. I tend to agree with the other reply to your question which asserts that it was a reflection of the general attitude of the times. The Picture of Dorian Gray is one of the best novels that I have ever read. There is plenty of discussions that have been generated over decades. I read a few academic articles which had the novel as the subject of discourse. It is a novel that has layers of meaning; and you need to study the text critically in order to find new insights and angles on the way Oscar Wilde had seen the world. I guess The Picture of Dorian Gray may also be read through the glass of a gendered discourse (i.e. Feminist discourse or literary theory), but I am not sure if that would reveal anything definitive about Wilde's attitude towards women.
Thanks Shamim. Since putting forward that question I have started reading a biography of Oscar Wilde. The biography clearly states that Wilde "...he was an unabashed champion of women's rights and believed women ro be every bit as intelegent as men..." I can only assume there was clear evidence of this. The negativity toward women in tPoDG came from Lord Henry. Maybe Wilde was reflecting the periods attitude to women through Henry.
There are a lot of references to The Picture of Dorian Gray throughout the biography. Whether it is the author of the biography building a picture of Oscar through his work, or Oscar did draw the people around him with his words. It is probably a bit of both.
I want to go back and reflect a little on Bunwats earlier quote in msg 20. It stated that Oscar would like to be Dorian. Maybe Oscar wanted the freedom of acting the way he would have liked to, without the consequence of societies critical gaze. Very interesting that he saw himself really as Basil. The picture painted in the biography is nothing like Basil. I guess that is always the case. how we see our selves, how we are seen by others, how we behave in public, how we behave in private. All faces make up an individual, all partially true, none really capture the whole story.
There are a lot of references to The Picture of Dorian Gray throughout the biography. Whether it is the author of the biography building a picture of Oscar through his work, or Oscar did draw the people around him with his words. It is probably a bit of both.
I want to go back and reflect a little on Bunwats earlier quote in msg 20. It stated that Oscar would like to be Dorian. Maybe Oscar wanted the freedom of acting the way he would have liked to, without the consequence of societies critical gaze. Very interesting that he saw himself really as Basil. The picture painted in the biography is nothing like Basil. I guess that is always the case. how we see our selves, how we are seen by others, how we behave in public, how we behave in private. All faces make up an individual, all partially true, none really capture the whole story.
Christi wrote: "Lord Henry might be a bad influence, but pretty much everything he says cracks me up! He would be fun at a party! Dangerous too, it would appear."Haha, agreed!!
Dorian's and Sibyl'S breakup was one of the worst I've read so far. Poor Sibyl.
Agreed. It does highlight the fact that Dorian was a genuine ass to begin with. The reaction in this case was purely Dorian no external influence. There is no one he could blame for that behaviour..
I agree. It was the beginning of end for Dorian Gray too. The soul destructing activities start from that very moment. Its interesting how Oscar Wilde hints at the succeeding crimes/evil acts of Dorian without ever mentioning explicitly what are the exact nature of these debased deeds.
But don't you think that Lord Henry was painted more favorably than Basil Hallward? After finishing the novel I felt that I liked Lord Henry better than any other characters. At one point Basil tells him "you never say a moral thing, but you never do a wrong thing". Was Lord Henry in effect the most unpretentious character in the novel: comfortable and at ease in his beliefs, assertions and his conviction in the frailty of human nature?Basil was a good man; but his purity was shaped out of habit and convention. Lord Henry, the counterpoint, offered introspection, cynicism and guidance maybe not as a purveyor of morality, but certainly as an agent who understood the human condition.
Natali.D wrote: "Dorian's and Sibyl'S breakup was one of the worst I've read so far. Poor Sibyl."Definitely. I felt awful for Sibyl, and was taken aback by how shallow and horribly cruel it showed Dorian to really be.
Christi wrote: "BunWat wrote: "In a letter, Oscar Wilde wrote,Basil Hallward is what I think I am: Lord Henry what the world thinks me: Dorian what I would like to be — in other ages, perhaps.
This is inter..." i have the movie but im not sure if i want to see it on spanish (even thats my language). I will wait for the weekend and make my decision. Im dying to see it!
Shamim wrote: "I agree. It was the beginning of end for Dorian Gray too. The soul destructing activities start from that very moment. Its interesting how Oscar Wilde hints at the succeeding crimes/evil acts of Do..."
I agree that Lord Henry understood the human condition and he seemed most honest because of that.
I agree that Lord Henry understood the human condition and he seemed most honest because of that.
what Dorian did to Sibyl was extremely vile. But to this day, TPoDG is one of my favorites because it kept you interested by making sure that Dorian never got caught and also so that maybe, someday, he would turn from his sinful life and find redemption. Not to mention the moral lesson that Oscar Wilde presents. I can't believe they put Wilde on trial for this book, but i guess back then, this stuff was exceedingly inappropriate.
@Julz Wow, yeah, I sure am glad the book became a classic nonetheless!
I'm late to the party and sitting on the fence about this novel. I gave it 3 stars mainly because there were some sections that bored me so much I was tempted to put the book down.There was an entire chapter where it explained that Darian became obsessed about different things like gems, art, music. I thought, "How is this an example of his corruption?" But at the end of the chapter, it was stated that these were all distractions that kept him from facing the way his life had become so evil.
The specifics of how he became so debased were only hinted at with the exception of his breakup with Sybil and the (view spoiler). Presumably there were homosexual encounters, whoring, and frequenting opium dens. Certainly, at the time of publishing, those were horrific things. However, by today's standards they are pale by comparison.
I think that much of Dorian's conflict was the internal battle between how he lived his life and the regret and desire to be a better person. He was tempted to make atonement for the things he did, but chose instead to bury the reality of those acts. In the end, I think he did the one thing that would save his soul so to speak.
@Janice; Great point, I was incredibly bored and underwhelmed by that one chapter! I remember it to be The Infamous Chapter 10. I thought "Why is it necessary to write all this? Is the author just stalling, trying to make the book longer for some reason?"But I generally enjoyed the rest of the story. Very well-written. Too bad you can't give half-stars on Goodreads, because I wanted to give this book more than 3 stars, but less than 4. I ended up giving it 4, and now it looks like I'm a huge fan of the book when really I'm not, haha.
Was it number 10? Wow I struggled through that chapter too. When ever I read a book and find myself skimming. I always think the problem is me and my short attention span, especially with any classic piece of literature. That aside. I loved Dorian Gray.
I liked how Dorians evil ways were left to your imagination. It doesn't really matter what they were. It was the impact they had on his soul that was important.
Or was it how he thought society would see him that was reflected in the portrait?
I liked how Dorians evil ways were left to your imagination. It doesn't really matter what they were. It was the impact they had on his soul that was important.
Or was it how he thought society would see him that was reflected in the portrait?
The chapter I struggled on was Chapter 11 where it discussed adnauseum the material things that he delved into like jewelry, tapestry, etc. etc. Chapter 10 is where he banished the painting to his childhood school room.That's an excellent question, Gail. In the words of Robbie Burns... "ah t'would be a gift to see ourselves as others see us.." In Dorian's case, it would have been a nightmare instead of a gift.
Oh, was it? My bad, then I meant Chapter 11; for some reason I thought it was Chapter 10 that had all of that pointless info about the material things that Dorian started to spend his time learning about, etc.
The movie is amazing (I own it and have watched it repeatedly), even though they change up the story quite a bit. It's actually pretty sexy (and a tad... yucky) and it gives you ideas of what kinds of sins Dorian has committed. Ben Barnes was mind-blowing. His change from innocence to corruption was so well done! :D
I love this book and I'm a big fan of the 1945 b/w film version. I was really disappointed by the recent remake. There is also a great film called Wilde (1997) which gives a very interesting take on his life, trial and imprisonment.I think Dorian was easily persuaded to give into his baser impulses. I find it hard to blame Lord Henry for Dorian's choices.
I felt Lord Henry, was the one who influenced Dorian's future, Basil, was merely a desperate painter. Lord Henry says everything we really want to hear but we never take his word seriously.At the end of the day, i believe the artist has the responsability to express himself with X material, the painting or model is just a bridge. The artist always finds a way to get his message regardless if it's hamrful or not to the society.
Torie wrote: "@Janice; Great point, I was incredibly bored and underwhelmed by that one chapter! I remember it to be The Infamous Chapter 10. I thought "Why is it necessary to write all this? Is the author just ..."I agree. Chapter 10 almost did me in but I am glad that I stayed with it.
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Lord Henry: “There is no such thing as a good influence, Mr. Gray. All influence is immoral – immoral form the scientific point of view.” (Chapter 1 p19)
1. Basil & Henry are the two major apparent influences that shaped Dorian’s future. What do you think?.
2. What if any responsibility do artists have to convey good morals to their audience?