Jane Eyre 2011: Week 2 - Volume the First: Part 2 - Chapters VI-XI

[MadgeUK]

Strange, I find the description of Helen's death in Chapter 9 very moving indeed. It was, after all, the fatal illness of her younger sister that CB was describing. Perhaps the 'keeping to herself' is part of the grief CB felt when writing about this very painful subject. I find myself crying when I read it as fiction, how much more painful it must have been for her to write about the fact:(. Sometimes our emotions overwhelm us and we are not able (or do not want) to express them.

Helen had also been removed from Jane and the other girls for some time because it became known that she was dying of TB, not ill from typhus fever, and so perhaps everyone had become accustomed to the thought that she would eventually die, TB being a fatal illness that the Victorians were accustomed to and which CB had already seen kill two of her other sisters. The Victorian Web comments that 'tuberculosis scarcely stirred the imagination of any social group in this period. It was so much a part of life, so inevitable, so little understood, that it was accepted mutely. . . . In the early nineteenth century it may have accounted for one-third of all deaths.'

I would therefore call the narration restrained rather than unreliable.

[MadgeUK]

Mrs Gaskell refers to Ann Bronte being 'so seriously unwell as to have had a blister applied to her side' at Cowan Bridge/Lowood:-

'A popular early medical practice was called "blistering". Blistering was used as a treatment for anything from a fever or arthritis to serious illnesses such as cholera. Blistering did not actually cure any disease or ailment, but many Victorians believed in its effectiveness. This is because the pain of being blistered caused the patient to focus on a new pain, taking their minds away from the more serious pain from which they suffered.

In the early 1800s, it was believed that the body could only contain one illness at a time. When a second illness entered the body, the first was forced out. Therefore, if the skin of an ill person was made to blister, it was felt that the burn would force the illness from the body. Thus, acid or hot plasters would be poured on the skin to burn it and form a blister, which was then drained. Sometimes, hot pokers were used to burn the skin instead.'

[Kristen]

Everyman wrote: "Georgie wrote: "The sexual imagery of the red room mentioned earlier is also carried over to Lowood with Brocklehurst being the instigator of sexual repression and depriver of anything sensual. "
..."

interesting question. would the possibility of experimentation have even entered into the adult victorian mind in regards to such young girls though? i would imagine it would have been so taboo, that the girls would have been assumed innocent.
but i'm not sure how much i buy into the "sexual imagery of the red room" anyways. in the context of the story, i think in terms of color theory the red denotes conflict and even repressed feelings of violence. red is a color of warning, so it emphasizes the threat jane fears, and red is known to intensify emotions and increase pulse rate. red is also a color of power, and jane is overwhelmed to the point of passing out in this room that mrs. reed has banished her to.

[MadgeUK]

Imagery on the part of an author can be subconscious or just hinted at. We all have such images in the back of our minds from stories we are told or books we have read. Jane is ten when she enters Lowood, the age of puberty, so CB could possibly have been thinking of menstruation when she was writing these passages. At a school for young girls of this age and older, there must have been a lot of sexual tension around which the adults would have been aware of, even though it was not spoken about. Although of course the Red Room also denotes danger, anger, rage and power as you suggest.

[Everyman]

MadgeUK wrote: "Jane is ten when she enters Lowood, the age of puberty, so CB could possibly have been thinking of menstruation when she was writing these passages. "

Are you sure about that? Ten is a bit young for puberty even today, which generally, at least in the US, begins around 11-13, and while I haven't been able to find any definitive information about the age of puberty in Victorian England, I did find one article (cite below -- don't know how reliable it is) which contends that menarche began five years later a century ago than today. Also, Sally Mitchell notes that the age of first marriage for a woman was 25 (Daily Life in Victorian England pg. 142); it seems that if women really started puberty at ten, if would be a long wait until 25 for marriage. It may be that the article is more correct, and the age would have been closer to 16-18 (11-13 plus five).

Article cite: http://beyondjane.com/lifestyle/issue...

Edit: I forgot the real point I was going to make: if puberty didn't start until the mid-teens somewhere, it seems much less likely to me that the symbolism of the red room would have involved menstruation imagery and more likely to have reflected the idea of anger or excitement (the classic red rag before the bull) imagery.

[Jenny]

MadgeUK wrote: "Strange, I find the description of Helen's death in Chapter 9 very moving indeed. It was, after all the fatal illness of her younger sister that CB was describing. Perhaps the 'keeping to herself'..."

I’m not sure if Jane was at home when Maria died, but the death of Helen almost seems like an ideal goodbye between loved ones—peaceful, painless and sweet. Perhaps Jane missed out on this closure with her own sister and paints it out in her novel.

[MadgeUK]

Everyman wrote: Are you sure about that? Ten is a bit young for puberty even today, which generally, at least in the US, begins around 11-13,

You are right that menstruation began later in Victorian times Everyman, according to Michael Foucalt's History of Sexuality 15 was the average age. (It is around 12 in the UK today.) But the years leading up to menstruation itself bring bodily and emotional changes and it was these I was thinking of and some Victorian advice to parents quoted in Foucalt's book: 'It is of the highest importance to remove young girls from boarding-school, when they approach the age of puberty, in order to exercise a constant watch over them. We should prevent, as far as possible, the false emotions produced by the reading of licentious books, especially of the highly-wrought romances of the modern school, which are the more injurious, as all the faculties become, as it were, overpowered by the desire to experience the sentiment which these works always represent in an imaginary and exaggerated strain.' Lowood was 'a congregation of girls of every age, from nine or ten to twenty'. However, the Red Room is, of course, at Gateshead and Jane is 'small in stature' which might have hindered puberty, as would the malnutrition of the girls at Lowood/Cowan Bridge. Thinking further about it I agree that the image of menstruation was an unlikely one for CB to have used for the Red Room (unless it happened at a lower age in the Bronte girls, which is possible.)

I don't think the age of Victorian marriage is relevant though as that is related to social mores. Marriage is happening later today, for instance, even though puberty is much earlier. The age of marriage also differs between the classes and in Victorian times this was more marked - the middle and upper classes married later. Poverty and bad housing conditions caused poorer parents to encourage their daughters to marry earlier, especially if they did not bring money to the home by working.

(Edited.)

[Lily]

MadgeUK wrote: "'My conscience will not let me be either a Puseyite or a Hookist; but, if I were a Dissenter, I would have taken the first opportunity of kicking, or of horse-whipping both the gentlemen for their stern, bitter attack on my religion and its teachers.' ..."

LOL! Gentle Charlotte? No!

[Lily]

Georgie wrote: "Helen is the embodiment of Christian virtue and renunciation in the text and, indeed, she is a Christ-like figure herself. Of course we pity her - but we pity Christ too for sacrificing himself for us - and Jane learns from Helen in much the same way as the bible desires us to learn from Christ..."

My own inclination is towards a more secular interpretation of Helen -- the tragic reality of the fragility of human life and the intertwining of goodness and self recrimination we so often find embodied in the same person.

[Lily]

MadgeUK wrote: "...the narration may become less reliable? ..."

It would seem that sometimes all the critics/teachers mean when they say "first person narrative is inherently less reliable" is a) the reader is given only one perspective, which is obviously less comprehensive than multiple perspectives or b) the narrator is not trying to be the "omniscient narrator" who ostensibly knows all and sees all. Clearly, as Amelie has suggested, a first person narrator would have her own particular preferences, biases, inhibitions, and enthusiasms. But that is also part of the wonder of hearing another person's story, which is essentially, or at least often, the role a first person narrator is playing.

[Lily]

Everyman wrote: "If CB were really trying to present the school as not only asexual but anti-sexual and anti-sensual, isn't this a strange choice for her to have made?..."

From what I have read (and seen filmed) elsewhere, this business of children, especially two girls or even two women, sharing a bed was so prevalent that I did not find the practice at all surprising at Lowood.

[Roger]

Lily wrote: "My own inclination is towards a more secular interpretation of Helen -- the tragic reality of the fragility of human life and the intertwining of goodness and self recrimination we so often find embodied in the same person."

Great discussion.

I value the layers of meaning as one of the aspects that make Jane Eyre of lasting relevance. But I think the story right on the surface is also part of the enduring value. For me, that surface story is similar to what Lily refers to as the secular interpretation. For example, the cruel treatment of Jane because of the false lying allegation and then Helen's compassion -- it evokes a powerful emotional response. I remember when I first read this I expected that Jane would be permanently shunned by the other girls. But seeing instead that Helen, and then Miss Temple went about to rehabilitate Jane's reputation, I was surprised and it felt really good. And of course the impact was all the greater because of the extreme treatment that Brocklehurst imposed.

I know there is intellectual significance to all of this, but I suppose what I am really trying to get across is that this scene also has great emotional significance, and I value that emotional experience simply because it makes me happy.

[Lily]

The red room and menarche -- while I personally have often found the feminist literary critics (especially of the Sixties and Seventies) over the top and hard to relate, nonetheless they have opened me, and I suspect many others, to recognizing the innately female experiences that woman writers (and some male, e.g., Nuruddin Farah) have embedded consciously or unconsciously in their stories. (I have had the same experiences of incredulity with other categories of critics, including the Marxist Terry Eagleton, amongst his often brilliant insights.) As has been said here before, sometimes we must call a stick a stick, other times we must recognize we read, write, comprehend from the perspective of millenniums who have gone before us, with reality, imagination and myth all nourishing our reactions and interpretations.

[Lily]

Feelings - choice -- I quite agree that we often have little or no conscious choice over our feelings -- they arise from what our brains and other systems of our bodies create, often at speeds faster than rational thought. But I still resonate with the language that designates feelings as our own, not as something that is imposed on us by something outside of ourselves, e.g., "what she said made me angry" versus "I chose to be angry at what she said," as awkward as that latter phraseology often seems to common discourse. Perhaps the vastest evidence pointing to the latter is the diversity of reactions (feelings) any group of people usually have to the same situation -- some may be sad, others angry, others bitter, others jealous, ....

The "choose" language incorporates accountability for feelings in the self, rather than in the other. Regardless of whether the feelings may be rationally adjudged appropriate or no. The feelings are what they are and belong to the person who has them; they themselves need not be considered "right" or "wrong".

(Attempt at a response to a question in Msg 42. I shall eventually get to Madge's second question.)

[Lily]

I found the concept of self-advertising for another position rather audacious after such a constrained up-bringing and had to stop and remember that such advertisements for work have a long history, even among women.

[MadgeUK]

Lily wrote: especially two girls or even two women, sharing a bed was so prevalent that I did not find the practice at all surprising at Lowood.

It was a very common practice and keeping warm may have initially had something to do with it in bedrooms which were unheated. Several children often slept in a bed together, both boys and girls. Until I was around 12 I shared a bed with my 13 year old male cousin when we visited my grandmother at Xmas. I do not recall any sexual shenagigins but those were more innocent times:).

However, when the famous Booth and Rowntree studies of 1885 and 1899, into the life of the labouring poor in London and York took place, it was found that 'the spectre of incest' was quite common, with children being born of those liaisons, especially in lonely country areas where finding a partner could be difficult. That was one of the reasons given to Parliament for the big housing drive at the end of the 19thC because bad housing was thought to be a contributory cause of 'vice'. Booth and Rowntree’s reports also helped to bring about the Liberal reforms of 1906-1912 which included the provision of free school meals, sickness and unemployment insurance for working men and the first state pensions.

[MadgeUK]

Lily wrote: "Feelings - choice -- I quite agree that we often have little or no conscious choice over our feelings -- they arise from what our brains and other systems of our bodies create, often at speeds fast..."

Thanks Lily - I am still not happy with the idea of not apportioning blame to 'the other' on some occasions, as, say, towards Miss Scatcherd in her treatment of Helen. Anger in certain situations can be caused by the actions of another who may deserve the blame and acrimony. IMO one can take the concept of 'forgiveness' too far, as I believe Helen did, although of course she was a very sick child trying to cope with a terrible illness. Anger and/or a sense of unfairness, such as Jane felt, can also lead to action to correct a wrong. Without anger projected onto others many wrongs would not have been righted.

In Helen's case it could be argued that had she been a little more angry about her situation she might have lived longer. Psychiatrists and medical people tell us these days to 'fight' illness and pain, not to give in to it. I feel that Jane's attitude was much the more modern one and we see her 'fiestiness' carrying her forward from page 1.

Similarly, Charlotte's 'rant' against Evangelical preachers (ref post 59) may also have been a protest against the then prevalent Calvinist concept that everything was 'God's Will', that all was pre-ordained - even her sisters' deaths.

http://caf-venturesome.tumblr.com/pos...

[MadgeUK]

Some thoughts on the religious implications of the scenes at Lowood before we leave this section:-

I think that Brocklehurst is a satirical illustration of the Evangelical movement in CB's day, with its overtones of Calvinism. Calvin took St Augustine’s position to the extreme, teaching that humankind is totally depraved and without any natural virtue or worth whatsoever.. Brocklehurst's tale of the Psalm-devouring little boy in Chapter 4 is more than rhetoric. Later on, he chides Miss Temple for giving the children bread and cheese: '...a judicious instructor would take the opportunity of referring to the sufferings of the primitive Christians..."If ye suffer hunger or thirst for My sake, happy are ye."... Oh, madam, when you put bread and cheese, instead of burnt porridge, into these children's mouths, you may indeed feed their vile bodies, but you little think how you starve their immortal souls."

Jane Eyre and the other girls at Lowood are often denied proper meals. Their hunger is supposed to make them appreciate the food that they do receive, whether it is substantial or not. Brocklehurst feels that their empty stomachs will bring them closer to God and salvation. Spirituality and religion are connected to the idea of denial and suffering.

Mr. Brocklehurst also attempts to control the bodies of his female students, bodies that he views as 'vile'. (There may also be an implication of the uncleanness of menstruation here.) From setting students on stools to be examples of evil, or demanding that they shear off their hair, he is intent of mastering the bodies of his pupils. He also draws clear distinctions between the body and the soul. The body, as he sees it, is a vehicle that carries the 'immortal soul' within it: this is its only importance.

Many Victorians would have shared these beliefs. However, we can tell that CB is intimating that Brocklehurst’s enforcement of these rules is wrong, according to the values of the novel, because he’s inconsistent - in the matter of the behaviour of his wife and children, for instance. In reference to the bread and cheese supplied by Miss Temple Jane says: 'We feasted that evening as on nectar and ambrosia . . . as we satisfied our famished appetites on the delicate fare she liberally supplied.' Miss Temple fed both body & soul. It is through Miss Temple's more liberal (Anglican?) behaviour that Jane finally has a sense of belonging to Lowood, preferring it, despite the privations, to Gateshead. Human love & affection heals the harshness whereas Helen accepts Brocklehurst's teachings and internalizes them. She looks to Heaven as Brocklehust would bid her do: 'By dying young, I shall escape great sufferings ...our souls can get to it when die'. It was commonly accepted by many Calvinists that saintly behavior (like Helen's) was a sign that a person was a member of the elect, although doctrine taught that good conduct could not 'win' salvation for anyone. because God had decided that matter long ago - it was predestined.

Brontë appears to undermine Helen's self-sacrificing religious beliefs. Helen and, later, other characters in this novel seek happiness in Heaven but Jane seems determined to find hers here on Earth. Chapter 8 ends:

'Well has Solomon said--"Better is a dinner of herbs where love is, than a stalled ox and hatred therewith.".....I would not now have exchanged Lowood with all its privations for Gateshead and its daily luxuries.' We are led to assume that the next few years, after the reform of the school, were spent more happily.

[Lily]

MadgeUK wrote: "Thanks Lily - I am still not happy with the idea of not apportioning blame to 'the other' on some occasions, as, say, towards Miss Scatcherd in her treatment of Helen. Anger in certain situations can be caused by the actions of another who may deserve the blame and acrimony...."

Apportioning "blame" is a separate act from one's feelings. We may select or seemingly simply react to the actions of others with certain feelings, but those feelings are still our own, "caused" by our own internal systems. (For the same situation, one may react with "anger", another by deadly calm, another by bewilderment, another by sadness, ..., or perhaps multiple feelings intermingled or in succession.) Given a situation, we may then decide to take whatever action we deem appropriate, whether driven by feelings or rationality or the perhaps inevitable entanglement of both. It is not necessary to apportion "right" or "wrong" to feelings, they simply are.

Are feelings of anger likely to lead to healthier responses than feelings of chagrin? I like to think rationality needs to trump (or integrate with) feelings in most cases in setting action -- but I am probably wandering way off human reality when I go there! But I hope not! LOL!

[Lily]

MadgeUK wrote: "...Calvin took St Augustine’s position to the extreme, teaching that humankind is totally depraved and without any natural virtue or worth whatsoever...."

Not sure that is a totally fair characterization of Calvin -- or even of most of the clergy and congregants who promulgated his austere theology. It seems rather like using the Letters of Paul to denigrate the role of women -- it has certainly been done to great effect, but is it the core or essence that was gleaned or should be gleaned?

[MadgeUK]

I like to think rationality needs to trump (or integrate with) feelings in most cases in setting action

It may need to but I think more often than not, it doesn't, judging by what we see around us every day. I think we are conditioned to respond to many things as being 'right' or wrong', irrespective of what may be rational. Social mores condition many of our responses such as, say, our response to public nudity which is often irrational given that we are born naked and it is a natural condition. Is anger at the wearing of the burkha rational? Jews and homosexuals being attacked in the street? Group violence in particular often seems to be irrational. So are these responses caused by 'our own internal systems' or are they learned behaviour, whipped up by external forces such as the press? Sometimes anger seems to erupt in people without any thought/decision whatsoever. It is instantaneous, which is surely indicative of learned behaviour or even a Pavlovian type reaction.

However, psychology is not my strong point and we are straying of topic:).

[Christina]

Excellent discussion! There is so much happening, on so many levels, in this section of the novel. All of you have commented beautifully on the intellectual and emotional impact of these scenes, as well as the religious vs secular issues. I've read this book several times (once as a young girl), and I continue to marvel at CB's ability to transport me to Jane's world. After visiting Haworth, I'm absorbed by this book in a new way. I'm more captivated by the language and imagery. It is truly amazing to me that a book this complex, with so much happening on so many levels, was written by a woman who lived in the first half of the 19th century, in an isolated village in an island nation. It is very interesting to analyze the book, but I think it is even more fun to step back and simply savor this as great literature.

[Lily]

Christina wrote: "...I think it is even more fun to step back and simply savor this as great literature...."

What "great literature" are you putting Jane Eyre alongside when you make that statement, Christina?

Can today's teenager "understand" Jane Eyre in as familiar a way as they apparently do Twilight ? Or does Jane belong to an "older", more literature savvy audience, perhaps at least college age rather than high school age?

These are probably really questions I should address to an English Lit teacher/professor, so don't hesitate to sidestep if I am being inappropriate in posing them.

[Georgie]

Lily wrote: "Christina wrote: "...I think it is even more fun to step back and simply savor this as great literature...."

What "great literature" are you putting Jane Eyre alongside when you make ..."

As a Lit teacher myself Lily, I would say that there are always some kids who have no problem reading a novel like Jane Eyre but then there are quite a few who find the language a real barrier. You can get some kids on board with enthusiastic teaching but others will blankly reject anything you try. It can be down to maturity too - I know I'm a much better and critical reader now than when I was 18. I "get" so much more now so I do always hope that the students who aren't ready for it as teenagers will have a go later on. I've just taught Edgar Allan Poe stories to 17 year olds and while they did like the stories, they found his vocabulary challenging and some kids even accused him of using big words to just to sound clever!
Of course, the other way you can engage them with the story is by showing the film - I'd always get them to read the book first and see if they agree with the adaptation but I guess it's a way of getting the ones who haven't a hope of getting through the novel to appreciate one of the best stories of the nineteenth century.

[Lily]

Georgie wrote: "As a Lit teacher myself..."

Thanks for your comments. Do you have a sense as to why vocabularies seem to be challenging? I must admit that I have been somewhat surprised at the number of "big words" in Jane. Charlotte clearly had had exposure to considerable depth in language. (It doesn't seem to me that could have come from the Bible alone.) Do we train modern writers to avoid them? How do schools today train for vocabulary?

(Incidentally, I was one of those people who always scored 2 or 3 percentages lower on vocabulary than other categories on standardized tests. But, I always believed that was because I went through basically a rural one room schoolroom for the first eight grades. The books to which I was exposed in grade school did not tend to be the classics, but current stories from a county wide circulating library and some poetry and classic short stories.)

[Georgie]

Vocabulary is built through exposure to books (and a wide range), conscious vocabulary building by teachers (in every subject, not just English), taking risks in writing, a good memory and socio-economic group (to name just a few ways). Kids from higher socio-economic groups have a much wider vocabulary than those from lower.
I suppose we are exposed to quite different texts and therefore vocabulary these days. There is no longer such an emphasis on a classical education and the bible is read less. People are always dismayed at the lowering standards of English but I believe that change in English is a natural process that has always occurred. As long as we all understand each other clearly, there shouldn't be a problem. With the advent of texting and emails, it will be interesting to see where we are in one hundred years or so.

[MadgeUK]

Lily wrote: Not sure that is a totally fair characterization of Calvin -- or even of most of the clergy and congregants who promulgated his austere theology..."

I was paraphrasing Altick's Victorian People and Ideas. I think the Calvinists/Evangelicals in CB's time were more austere than most of those around today and more allied to the Puritanism of the Civil War period.

[MadgeUK]

Some background trivia:

The last chapter in this section, Chapter 11, commences: 'A new chapter in a novel is something like a new scene in a play; and when I draw up the curtain this time, reader, you must fancy you see a room in the George Inn at Millcote...

This Inn was demolished in 1920 but there is a sketch of it here and some information about Leeds, which is Millcote in the novel.

http://dnausers.d-n-a.net/leodis-leed...

The George was where Branwell Bronte attended a 'literary circle' with his friends and was on the stagecoach route between Haworth and Cowan Bridge/Lowood.

Mention is also made in this chapter of a 'one horse conveyance, a 'sort of car' sent by Mrs Fairfax to pick Jane up to go to Thornfield. It was likely to be a 'Brougham', a one horse carriage introduced in 1838 to a design suggested by Baron Brougham & Vaux (pronounced Broom & Vokes!). He requested coachmakers to make him something on the lines of a street cab (cabriolet) but more refined and elegant, a carriage for the gentleman, which was light enough to be pulled by one horse. The original carriages were fitted with a sword case as weapons had to be carried for protection, particularly on long drives. The de-luxe version would come with reading lamp, looking glass, card pocket and even a clock! Some seated four and were drawn by a pair of horses. Lord Brougham was Lord Chancellor of the United Kingdom in Charlotte Bronte's day, a Whig politician who opposed the slave trade. He famously defended Queen Caroline in the adultery case brought against her by King George IV and campaigned in respect of married women's property rights generally.

http://www.johnnybrunt.com/images/Bro...

A two horse Brougham from the Royal Mews:

http://rpmedia.ask.com/ts?u=/wikipedi...

The interior is quite comfy - they are often used for weddings nowadays:-

http://www.sussexcarriagehorses.co.uk...

[Diana]

Lily wrote: "Christina wrote: "...I think it is even more fun to step back and simply savor this as great literature...."

What "great literature" are you putting Jane Eyre alongside when you make ..."

In my opinion, teenagers are more driven to novels like "Twilight", because they don't get the real feeling of a novel like "Jane Eyre". I mean, that, truely passionate readers, will read novels from any category, just for the fun of it and out of curiosity. But novels like "Twilight"and most young adult books belong to the category of mass-mediatized books and that seems to be the only point of interest.
But I also agree with the age being a factor for understanding. I first read "The Red and the Black" when I was 14 and I hated it... then I read it again at 19 and loved it, because I finally got what it was about.

[Lily]

Georgie wrote: "I suppose we are exposed to quite different texts and therefore vocabulary these days...."

Yes, I'd guess the vocabulary most high school students "know" today is considerably different. I remember the four year old daughter of my college P-chem professor flinging around "tensor" at Engineering Day, a term I had first encountered pretty recently at the time in some math class or another. In technology, medicine, media, ..., I suspect our general vocabularies may be "fuller."

[Lynnm]

Georgie wrote: "I do wonder whether CB created the character of Helen so that we can compare her to the much more flawed (if being spirited and outspoken is flawed which it probably was in Victorian times) Jane. ..."

Nice points.

And as others have pointed out, much like many authors before her, Charlotte creates the dynamic of what she feels Christianity truly embodies vs. the "Pharisees" of the time - men like Brocklehurst - who claim that they are doing Christian deeds when in actuality they are not.

Also, I found the tone of Jane Eyre with regard to religion far more palatable than Anne's "The Tenant of Wildfell Hall." Anne just hits the reader over the head with her religious views while Charlotte has a softer way of getting her ideas across.

[Carol]

Lily wrote: "Do you have a sense as to why vocabularies seem to be challenging? I must admit that I have been somewhat surprised at the n..."

Both my husband and I are readers. Every night I read to my kids before bed and we took them to the library weekly. My 2 oldest are great readers & writers and had no problems in school. My youngest still struggles and I think it is because he was given a game boy after a life& death situation/extended hospitalization when he was 6 years old. He has some books but spends the majority of his free time on video games. I think he has a shorter attention span and lacks the vocabulary the others acquired from reading.

[Susan]

I apologize for being absent through most of the discussion of this section of the novel, but it has been a busy week for me and I have just returned from a short weekend trip to Toronto.

There were two specific examples that I had pulled while reading that I thought pertinent to our discussions.
The first had to do with what Madge has already brought up. I found the hypocrisy of Mr. Brocklehurst most fitting, and I love how Bronte writes about it: "Mr. Brocklehurst was here interrupted: three other visitors, ladies, now entered the room. They ought to have come a little sooner to have heard his lecture on dress, for they were splendidly attired in velvet, silk, and furs." and she goes on to describe the luxurious furs and fashion. What a sharp contrast to the rest of this section! To me, it was almost like it was a paragraph taken from a completely different novel.

The second quotation that I found striking was when Jane wishes that the severe weather would continue. Can we see a glimpse of the Gothic here perhaps?:
"Probably, if I had lately left a good home and kind parents this would have been the hour when I would have most keenly regretted the separation; that wind would then have saddened my heart; this obscure chaos would have disturbed my peace! as it was I derived from both a strange excitement, and reckless and feverish, I wished the wind to howl more wildly, the gloom to deepen to darkness, and the confusion to rise to clamour." I see this passage as representative of a strange sort of freedom existing within Jane. She is not bound by the traditional sense of family. Therefore, she is not held back from being an adventurous risk-taker. As I have begun to read into the next section, I see this early passage as a jumping off point of what's to come and am eager to begin our next discussion.

[Susan]

Just realized that Ch. 11 is in this section. One part I loved about this chapter was Jane's description of the third story of Thornfield Hall: "All these relics gave to the third story of Thornfield Hall the aspect of a home of the past: a shrine of memory." This description brought me right back to the red room while reading it. Jane feels the room is fine during the day, but would hate to spend the night there. This is another glimpse at the Gothic part of the tale. Another interesting thing about this floor was that it was a collection of unwanted furniture. As fashions changed, so the furniture had been move upwards away from the public part of the house. Kind of like Jane herself: unwanted, unfashionable, and strange, but still grand and strong.

[MadgeUK]

Some great insights Susan - I especially like your references to the gothic. I wonder whether Charlotte is deliberately bringing out gothic elements to please who she sees as her future audience or whether, being a well read Victorian, she is imbued with them because of her own reading?

I also like your comparison of Jane to the 'grand and strong' furniture in the attic...

I wonder whether Brocklehurst's references to dress were an ironic look back to the sad time when Charlotte’s mother once received a silk dress and matching shoes as a gift from her aunt but her father promptly cut the dress into little pieces and threw them into the fireplace in order to 'teach his wife humility'. :(:(

[Susan]

Madge- great catch! Sounds like it could have been Bronte's inspiration.

[Roger]

Diana wrote: "In my opinion, teenagers are more driven to novels like "Twilight", because they don't get the real feeling of a novel like "Jane Eyre". ..."

The contrast between Jane Eyre and Twilight is interesting. I asked my 17 year old daughter who has read both Jane Eyre and Twilight for her relative opinions of the books. She definitely resonates more with Twilight, because for her the writing is more "modern."

It was interesting to learn that the main character in Twilight continuously carries around a copy of Wuthering Heights and that Edward asks her why she likes Wuthering Heights so much. it reminds me of the connection between the Brote gothic and the contemporary gothic.

My daughter also (somewhat inconsistently) said that she found Rochester creepy because he loved Jane Eyre despite what he is hiding in the attic, but that the vampire element makes Twilight more interesting. I suppose the brilliance of Stephanie Meyer is that she transformed the older Rochester into the handsome teenager but still old Edward.

[Tango]

I struggle to find any real connection between Twilight and Jane Eyre. The heroine in Twilight is so insipid - her only real value seems to be that she is nice and Edward is not exactlty scary. The sexual tension is the only connection that I can see. However, I did find Twilight very easy to read and I think that is a large part of its popularity.

[Everyman]

BunWat wrote: "IBut there have always been popular trashy novels. I mean, The Mysteries of Udolpho, anyone?

I didn't consider Udolpho trashy at all. Beautiful scene painting, some well drawn characters and situations, perhaps not much of intellectual weight (but Jane Eyre doesn't have that for me, either), but for me certainly not trashy.

[Kim]

Everyman wrote: "BunWat wrote: "IBut there have always been popular trashy novels. I mean, The Mysteries of Udolpho, anyone?

I didn't consider Udolpho trashy at all. Beautiful scene painting, some well drawn char..."

It all comes down to what we mean by trashy. Not having much intellectual weight could well meet the definition. I don't think trashy is necessarily a bad thing; there are plenty of books worth reading which are popular, lightweight and fun!

[Lily]

Tango wrote: "I struggle to find any real connection between Twilight and Jane Eyre..."

I will return to one possible connection between [Book:Twilight] and [Book:Jane Eyre], besides their popularity among young women, later in this discussion. It is a connection about the psyche of young women that I find troubling 30 years after the feminist insights of the Sixties and Seventies and certainly is not a connection with which everyone agrees, given what I have seen elsewhere, but it is one I consider worthy of reflection.

[MadgeUK]

Roger wrote: My daughter also (somewhat inconsistently) said......."

Oops! Be careful of spoilers Roger!

[MadgeUK]

Lily wrote: It is a connection about the psyche of young women that I find troubling 30 years after the feminist insights of the Sixties and Seventies.

My 14 year old granddaughter is 'into' the Twilight novels and I find it troubling for the same reasons Lily. Mary Wollstonecraft must be turning in her grave!

Udolpho may seem trashy and melodramatic to us but it broke new ground in its day, especially for a female author. And as Everyman says, the descriptions of Alpine 'sublime' scenery were beautfiul and, again, part of a ground breaking literary and artistic genre. I wish I could think that the Twilight novels were doing the same:(:-

http://www.victorianweb.org/philosoph...

The landscape images used by Charlotte and Emily Bronte, drawn from Bewick's History of British Birds, (see Background Resources) are also part of the Sublime aesthetic.

There were some interesting stories about Ann Radcliffe after her death at the height of her fame - I like the one about the pork chops!

http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/eng...

Jane Austen's Northanger Abbey was a send-up of gothic novels like Radcliffe's but her later Sense and Sensibility took up one of the important themes of Udolpho, thus showing the importance of the genre to contemporary literature.

(Chris: Have you received your Bewick yet - if so please give us your 'take' on the relevance of his woodcuts to JE.)

[Kristen]

Georgie wrote: "Vocabulary is built through exposure to books (and a wide range), conscious vocabulary building by teachers (in every subject, not just English), taking risks in writing, a good memory and socio-ec..."

i agree with you Georgie. i think there's a lot to be said for parents who read to their children, as well. reading becomes associated with positive feelings. i think one of the things i found attractive about reading was the element of choice that was involved in choosing a book. my mother would take me to the library and let me roam around to my heart's content and check out as many books as the library allowed. also, i think that grammar helps. simply learning the meaning of root words and prefixes, goes a long way. it was how i was able to figure out what most long words meant. really that was the best tool as far as vocabulary goes. i must have "memorized" at least 1000 vocabulary definitions in high school in preparation for the SAT's, but it's really the words that i learned in the context of actual reading that have stuck with me.

[Kristen]

MadgeUK wrote: "Charlotte’s mother once received a silk dress and matching shoes as a gift from her aunt but her father promptly cut the dress into little pieces and threw them into the fireplace in order to 'teach his wife humility'. :(:( "

this just made me shudder. ugggh.