The Catcher in the Rye
discussion
Did anyone else just not "get" this book?
Monty J wrote: "Life for humans is a continual balance between native urge to climb to the top of the food chain and to maintain social order and strength. This is aptly demonstrated today in the Middle East, where sectarian violence has ruled since before the Middle Ages.Animals are not designed to value equality, but the higher order of the animal kingdom have learned to organize, socialize and cooperate for the betterment of the group. Killer whales hunt and protect themselves more effectively in groups. Primates do the same. Humans even more so.
You must have missed the message in The Catcher In The Rye.
"What did Dr. Thurmer say to you, boy? I understand you had quite a little chat."
"Yes, we did. We really did. I was in his office for around two hours, I guess."
"What'd he say to you?"
"Oh. . . well, about Life being a game and all. And how you should play it according to the rules. He was pretty nice about it. I mean he didn't hit the ceiling or anything. He just kept talking about Life being a game and all. You know."
"Life is a game, boy. Life is a game that one plays according to the rules."
"Yes, sir. I know it is. I know it." Game, my ass. Some game. If you get on the side where all the hot-shots are, then it's a game, all right--I'll admit that. But if you get on the other side, where there aren't any hot-shots, then what's a game about it? Nothing. No game.
How is learning to play the game about equality? How does football teach children to value equality of other schools? What do you need to grade people (back to our conversation about Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Valuesand Quality over Quantity,) in order to create equality?
School Settings are powerful teaching machines. Call it learning or imprinting the main thing school teaches is school. Learning the school game. If you learn the game well you become a good student and do easy time.
Learning to keep things separate: time and space; body and mind; talking and doing; thinking and feeling; learning that books and media are the true source of knowledge and your own experience is secondary; learning that school learning is outside yourself; what you do and what you want to know is something other than learning; learning that school is necessary to get a-head (not equal) - (it is like a head we didn't have); learning that learning has no value for itself only as preparation for something else.
Matthew wrote: "Yes there were slaves in Ancient Greece, and in every other civilization of the ancient world, and of course the slaves didn't participate in the democratic process, but that's not what I meant by ..."I understand. It reminds me of The House of the Seven Gables. What was interesting and timely about that book is how land was stolen from a neighbor by creating a "enemy". Also the checks and balances were distorted because the "leaders" we're hand picked in a board meeting by a few men way before the people got to vote. So that the loyalty was really to his friends that supported him more than a popular vote.
But I think that self government or self responsibility created a position of power for the people. Where becoming more dependent on the state created more chaos.
Isn't this the case?
The only reason that I pointed out the slaves is because humans have not been in the business of creating equity as much as inequality.
Last night I went into my children's room and asked them if they could take the trash out. They all announced in unison "Yes We Can!" I said that sounds like some DC talk. This morning I got up and the trash wasn't taken out. Just my children learning values from their leaders.
Cosmic wrote: "Last night I went into my children's room and asked them if they could take the trash out. They all announced in unison "Yes We Can!" I said that sounds like some DC talk. This morning I got up and the trash wasn't taken out. Just my children learning values from their leaders. "Or is that your children showing their grasp of grammar?
You asked if they are able, not if they were willing ;-)
Philip wrote: "...the Middle East has been in a state of flux since the Balfour Declaration opened up Palestine to an unusual kind of immigration. Before that, I think it enjoyed many long periods of peace."It is where the ME is today that is relevant. What it has evolved, or devolved, to.
If monotheistic patriarchal tribalism were superior to democracy, the Middle Eastern countries would not have allowed Western powers to interfere with their way of life and exploit their natural resources. Of course the tribalism varies by country, but as along as Western powers can keep them disunited and play one against the other, we can keep exploiting their oil .
"...Democracy does not always equate with peace."
Whoa, I didn't mention peace. Social cooperation and success doesn't always result in peace, although peace is an objective. Regardless, democracy was in its infancy during the time of Ancient Greece. Experiments take time to perfect.
And democracy still is evolving. The early American version was a leap forward, but in recent decades we have begun to slide back toward our Nineteenth Century version.
Europe, led by Germany, is in the lead now.
Democracy by its very nature is fragile. It will always be under attack by the wealthy and those interested in its defeat, such as communists.
Fascism is democracy in decline. That's where we're headed in America unless we come to our senses. It's a tense "moment in history" for democracy, and the Randism fuleled train to fascism has been gathering momentum for a long time.
Cosmic wrote: "chool Settings are powerful teaching machines. Call it learning or imprinting the main thing school teaches is school. Learning the school game. If you learn the game well you become a good student and do easy time.Learning to keep things separate: time and space; body and mind; talking and doing; thinking and feeling; learning that books and media are the true source of knowledge and your own experience is secondary; learning that school learning is outside yourself; what you do and what you want to know is something other than learning; learning that school is necessary to get a-head (not equal) - (it is like a head we didn't have); learning that learning has no value for itself only as preparation for something else."
I don't know what planet you went to school on, but none of what you just described is anything close to my experience. Or my children's.
Where did you go to school, anyway, to have such a jaded view of public schools?
The Western Powers that dominated the ME and other 3rd world countries were not all necessarily democratic: Napoleon in Egypt, Mussolini in North Africa. Britain was democratic but their taking over the lands of the former Ottoman Empire was more a function of winning WWI.
Monty J wrote: "don't know what planet you went to school on, but none of what you just described is anything close to my experience. Or my children's. Where did you go to school, anyway, to have such a jaded view of public schools? ..."
"Twenty years of schoolin’
And they put you on the day shift
Look out kid
They keep it all hid
Better jump down a manhole
Light yourself a candle
Don’t wear sandals
Try to avoid the scandals"
Read more: http://www.bobdylan.com/us/songs/subt...
Cosmic wrote: "Monty J wrote: "don't know what planet you went to school on, but none of what you just described is anything close to my experience. Or my children's. Where did you go to school, anyway, to have..."
? How does that answer Montys question? Maybe you never went to a school.
Matthew wrote: "The Western Powers that dominated the ME and other 3rd world countries were not all necessarily democratic: Napoleon in Egypt, Mussolini in North Africa. Britain was democratic but their taking over the lands of the former Ottoman Empire was more a function of winning WWI.The British were drawn into Egypt long before WWI. But it was Monty's claim that the region has been unstable since Medieval times that I couldn't agree with, and I think what you're saying reinforces my point: the decline of Turkish power in the region led to European (and even US - "to the shores of Tripoli") interference.
Karen wrote: "? How does that answer Montys question? Maybe you never went to a school. ..."
"If you really want to hear about it, the first thing you'll probably want to know is where I was born and what my lousy childhood was like, and how my parents were occupied and all before they had me, and all that David Copperfield kinda of crap, but I don't feel like going into it, if you want to known the truth. In the first place, that stuff bores me..."
The Catcher In The Rye by JD Salinger
Cosmic wrote: "Monty J wrote: "don't know what planet you went to school on, but none of what you just described is anything close to my experience. Or my children's. Where did you go to school, anyway, to have..."
You dodged my question. Where did you go to school? From what foundation of experience do you criticize public schools?
Monty J wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Monty J wrote: "don't know what planet you went to school on, but none of what you just described is anything close to my experience. Or my children's. Where did you go to school, ..."
"Wanna do me a big favor?"
"What?" I said. Not too enthusiastic.
He was always asking you to do him a big favor. You take a very handsome guy, or a guy that thinks he's a real hot-shot, and they're always asking you to do them a big favor. Just because they're crazy about themself, they think you're crazy about them, too, and that you're just dying to do them a favor. It's sort of funny, in a way."
The Catcher in the Rye page 27
Cosmic wrote: "Monty J wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Monty J wrote: "don't know what planet you went to school on, but none of what you just described is anything close to my experience. Or my children's. Where did you go to school?"
I take your second evasion to mean that you have no direct experience as a public school student, teacher or administrator. Therefore your entire criticism of public schools lies on a shaky foundation of heresay.
The prosecution rests.
Monty J wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Monty J wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Monty J wrote: "don't know what planet you went to school on, but none of what you just described is anything close to my experience. Or my children's...."Actually it's three evasions. I got on here Monty to tell you I am impressed by your ideas on democracy.
Monty J wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "I take your second evasion to mean that you have no direct experience as a public school student, teacher or administrator. Therefore your entire criticism of public schools lies on a shaky foundation of heresay.The prosecution rests...."
Wait I have witnesses:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ogCc8...
I read this book in high school and absolutely loved it, bought for my brother when he came of age. Also we had a mother who continuously threatened to send us to boarding school for our antics. With my sister there was no threat she entered an all girls boarding school her freshman year. However, I re-read it my late forties and it had lost it's resonance. My husband first picked it up in his late fifties and didn't make a quarter of the way through. I believe that you either have to be young and in angst or in the midst of your children's teen angst and really tuned in to appreciate the how perfectly it mimics their minds. Same thing happened to me with A Separate Peace by John Knowles. Don't miss the chance to read these in high school so you will know what a rare gift they are.
We can't talk about an effin book without the middle east being brought up!??
Cosmic wrote: "Wait I have witnesses:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ogCc8... "
So you admit that you have no experience with public school education and your only source is the fanatical reformist John Gatto. I frankly can't stomach his didactic arrogant rambling posturing long enough to hear much of what he has to say.
Your credibility on the subject of public schools is shot full of holes. If I'm interested in what Gatto has to say, I'll get it first hand. Meantime, perhaps you would care to preface your opinions on the topic with "according to John Gatto...".
Nannette wrote: "I read this book in high school and absolutely loved it, bought for my brother when he came of age. Also we had a mother who continuously threatened to send us to boarding school for our antics. W..."Hi Nannette,
I would like to offer a different take on this book which you will find in message 1026. I see TCITR as an allegory.
Let me know what you think.
Nannette wrote: "I read this book in high school and absolutely loved it, bought for my brother when he came of age. Also we had a mother who continuously threatened to send us to boarding school for our antics. W..."Alot of people read it later in life, I just finished it and loved it, I'm 56
Hiba wrote: "We can't talk about an effin book without the middle east being brought up!??"Sure we can, and we have. :)
Karen wrote: "Actually it's three evasions."You're right. The first one was when I asked Cosmic if she were home schooled. That question also remains unanswered.
"...impressed by your ideas on democracy."
Thank you. A topic dear to my heart.
Philip wrote: "The first is that the Middle East has been in a state of flux since the Balfour Declaration opened up Palestine to an unusual kind of immigration. Before that, I think it enjoyed many long periods of peace."I will concede "relative peace." I'm not so sure if I overstated my case. I don't get a sense of a nation of warlords being especially peaceful. Hence the term "warlord."
But I am no expert on Middle Eastern history.
I'm frankly sick of the Middle East and all its gore and barbarism.
I remember a time when I could go to the airport and catch a flight practically anywhere and not worry about some security guard confiscating my pocket knife or the allen wrench I use to adjust my guitar, let alone being bombed out of the sky by Islamic terrorists.
Because we need their oil, we end up bankrupting our country fighting wars and doing business with barbarians who abuse women, maim each other for petty theft and publicly decapitate people.
Let's get off oil and return to a more civil way of living.
Monty J wrote: "Philip wrote: "The first is that the Middle East has been in a state of flux since the Balfour Declaration opened up Palestine to an unusual kind of immigration. Before that, I think it enjoyed man..."And you play the guitar also! A multi-talented guy.
Philip wrote: "The British were drawn into Egypt long before WWI. But it was Monty's claim that the region has been unstable since Medieval times that I couldn't agree with, and I think what you're saying reinforces my point: the decline of Turkish power in the region led to European (and even US - "to the shores of Tripoli") interference. "We (Western Europeans and their descendants) have been dicking around in the Middle East since the Crusades.
Monty J wrote: "You dodged my question. Where did you go to school? From what foundation of experience do you criticize public schools? ..."An image comes to mind in thinking of the isolated nuclear family and the public school. I see two unstable bodies leaning on each other like two sides of an A-frame. Each needs the other to resist the overturning of revolution.
The school shapes the family consciousness, kids go off to school, father goes off to work, mother stays home or goes to work. All that's left are frantic family weekends. Schools need fragmented families, fragmented families need schools.
Philip wrote: "Matthew wrote: "The Western Powers that dominated the ME and other 3rd world countries were not all necessarily democratic: Napoleon in Egypt, Mussolini in North Africa. Britain was democratic but ..."In the book Nicholas and Alexandra they say that Istanbul was supposed to be the booty for the tsar for his participation in WW1. Of course he is forced to abdicate before then. Can you throw any light on why this would have been advantageous?
Cosmic wrote: "Schools need fragmented families, fragmented families need schools."Cosmic, are you on some payroll for the homeschooling industry?
Here you go again, commandeering a literary discussion topic to promote a lifestyle that you deem superior but lack any credibility to expound upon. I'm going to refute this absurd assertion one last time, and hereafter will simply reply "ibid" to any of your future commentary on this off-topic subject.
You refer to families who don't follow your creed as "frantic" and "fragmented." That is strictly an opinion formed without a shred of evidence. Just your intuition. Why don't you ask those family members if they feel "fragmented" or "frantic" before judging them.
Besides, who made it your business to judge them? It seems as if you're trying to justify your own lifestyle by pointing fingers at other families and judging them on external appearance.
On the flip side, you have yet to refute two glaring weakness in homeschooling: a) lack of instructional diversity and b) lack of social diversity. (But please don't do it here. A message will suffice.)
Cosmic, you need to retire this worn-out topic or take it off-line. It is rude to keep taking up everyone's time with something that has nothing to do with the topic.
Are you setting an example of the lack of social awareness that comes from being home schooled?
I was looking up the word "game" in the Catcher In The Rye and I discovered that there were 40.Since I have a very open mind how to interpret The Catcher In The Rye I find numerology significant.
Here are some references to the number 40:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/40_(nu...
It can refer to a time of testing.
That only works if Salinger practiced numerology.
Cosmic wrote; "Here are some references to the number 40""It can refer to a time of testing"
It can also refer to the number 40.
Cosmic wrote: "they say that Istanbul was supposed to be the booty for the tsar "I didn't know about that but it makes sense. When the Roman Empire was finally obliterated with the capture of Constantinople (Istanbul) in 1453 by the Ottoman Turks, the Russians considered themselves the heirs of the Roman Legacy in the East, hence the title Czar, derived from Caesar. Therefore the recapture of Constantinople and bringing it back to Christendom could be seen as a resurrection of the Eastern Roman Empire.
Matthew wrote: "When the Roman Empire was finally obliterated with the capture of Constantinople (Istanbul) in 1453 by the Ottoman Turks, the Russians considered themselves the heirs of the Roman Legacy in the East, hence the title Czar, derived from Caesar. ..."I thought I would get the book out and write out what he said.
"With Nicholas and Alexis both removed, Michel now was Tsar. There was an old Russian legend that when Tsar Michael II sat on the throne, Russia would win her eternal goal, Constantinople. There had been no tsar named Michael since the founder of the Romanov dynasty; There were other propitious omens. Britain and France, which always before had blocked Russia's advance to the south, now we're her allies, and had promised Constantinople as a prize of victory. If Michael took the throne and the Allies won the war, the ancient legend might at last be fulfilled."
Page 421 and 422 of Nicholas and Alexandra
Monty J wrote: "Cosmic wrote:"Cosmic, are you on some payroll for the homeschooling industry?
Here you go again, ..."
I was hoping you would lighten up.
Have you heard this song?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq4PuP...
What do you know about it?
Cosmic wrote: "Have you heard this song?http://www...."
There's more than one version of "Oh Marie." Here's another: http://rock.genius.com/Louis-prima-oh...
It was playing as Holden and Phoebe first approached the carousel. It foreshadows Holden's awakening to the devotion Phoebe has demonstrated in fiercely resisting his expressed intention to run away to avoid facing his parents over being kicked out of school.
This song, in conjunction with the second carousel song, "Smoke Gets in Your Eyes," clarify to the reader the meaning of the book, the redemptive power of unconditional love.
Salinger never mentions love; he demonstrates it, and lets the lyrics spell it out for him, much as he did with the "Comin' Through the Rye" song the boy sang earlier.
Renee wrote: "That only works if Salinger practiced numerology."Actually I think numerology was among the many philosophies explored by Salinger. He was a seeker of spiritual truth, not surprising for someone of his high intellect and years of experience with horrific trauma.
I've enjoyed reading comments about the book - both pro and con - but will now leave the discussion. Thanks for the many comments about the book. I like to hear from others. I may (or may not) reread it.
Cosmic wrote: In the book Nicholas and Alexandra they say that Istanbul was supposed to be the booty for the tsar for his participation in WW1. Of course he is forced to abdicate before then. Can you throw any light on why this would have been advantageous? and:
I thought I would get the book out and write out what he said.
"With Nicholas and Alexis both removed, Michel now was Tsar. There was an old Russian legend that when Tsar Michael II sat on the throne, Russia would win her eternal goal, Constantinople. There had been no tsar named Michael since the founder of the Romanov dynasty; There were other propitious omens. Britain and France, which always before had blocked Russia's advance to the south, now we're her allies, and had promised Constantinople as a prize of victory. If Michael took the throne and the Allies won the war, the ancient legend might at last be fulfilled."
Page 421 and 422 of Nicholas and Alexandra
Britain spent much of the 19th century trying to keep Russia out of the Eastern Med. However, the geopolitical pendulum swung both ways. At the battle of Navarino (1827), for example, a combined British, French & Russian fleet engaged a Turkish & Egyptian one. Thirty years later, Britain, France & Turkey were fighting Russia in the Crimea.
What happened in the couple of decades before WWI was that Britain & France side-stepped their colonial differences in favour of presenting a united front against the Central Powers (Germnay, Austria-Hungary & Italy). Russia, chastened by their defeat by the Japanese in 1905 and already in alliance with the French, were brought into this Triple Entente, which was an attempt to create a stable balance of power. As we know, this balance was very short lived. Exactly 100 years ago, the European powers locked arms in a very grim war.
OK, so in the midst of the conflict, were the Russians promised Istanbul? That rash concept was certainly tabled. Early in the war, Britain, France & Italy (who had switched sides) mounted the Gallipoli campaign partly in order to create a warm water route to supply the Russians. Had Turkey fallen then (and she very nearly did), no doubt the Russians would have pressed their demands. But the Turks held on, and by the time the war ended, Russia was out of contention, so the question never really came up.
In my opinion, Britain & France would have resisted giving Russia so much power. Wartime promises are soon forgotten. For example, the Arabs were promised independence and the Jews Palestine. It took a second world war before either of those outcomes were achieved.
Monty J wrote...[post # 1066 - too much to quote]
Actually, for all you numerologists, 1066 is an interesting one. For us Brits it is, anyway. 1066 AD was the year of the Norman Conquest, the last time "we" were successfully invaded, the last time "we" had to put up with an imposed regime. Arf, arf, nod's as good as a wink, Squire.
But to address the frustration your post expresses. Wow, living in the Middle East (as I have done for twenty-odd years) you wanna hear how many people feel about the USA. They see US power everywhere: from the seeds they plant in the earth to the TV they watch when they come home from work; from the way their politicians kow-tow to Washington to the operating systems of their computers. Everywhere, the dollar rules. There's just no getting away from it. Whether, at the root, it's sheer jealousy or genuine ideological opposition.
Throw up your hands in despair at the rest of the world and be "The Catcher In The Rye" if you so wish. The moot point is, at least YOU can.
Monty J wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Have you heard this song?http://www...."
There's more than one version of "Oh Marie." Here's another: http://rock.genius.com/Louis-prima-oh...
It was playing as Holden ..."
This is an interesting interpretation. Holden says that this was the same song that was playing fifty years ago. (Page 210). So this is the reason that I picked the Tony Paster version.
I think the reason for mentioning this song is the man Tony Pastor.
Tony Pastor was the "Father of Vaudeville". http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_P...
Vaudeville was separate unrelated acts grouped together. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaudev...
The continued growth of the lower-priced cinema in the early 1910s dealt the heaviest blow to vaudeville. This was similar to the advent of free broadcast television's diminishing the cultural and economic strength of the cinema. Cinema was first regularly commercially presented in the US in vaudeville halls. The first public showing of movies projected on a screen took place at Koster and Bial's Music Hall in 1896. Lured by greater salaries and less arduous working conditions, many performers and personalities, such as Al Jolson, W. C. Fields, Mae West, Buster Keaton, the Marx Brothers, Jimmy Durante, Bill "Bojangles" Robinson, Edgar Bergen, Fanny Brice, Burns and Allen, and Eddie Cantor, used the prominence gained in live variety performance to vault into the new medium of cinema. The shift of New York City's Palace Theatre, vaudeville's epicenter, to an exclusively cinema presentation on November 16, 1932 is often considered to have been the death knell of vaudeville.[12]
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palace...
By 1932, the Palace moved to four shows a day and lowered its admission price. In November of that year, it was rebranded the "RKO Palace" and converted to a cinema.
The RKO Picture Citizen Kane had its world premiere at the theatre on May 1, 1941.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citize...
Considered by many critics, filmmakers, and fans to be the greatest film ever made.
Kane's career in the publishing world is born of idealistic social service, but gradually evolves into a ruthless pursuit of power.
Charles Foster Kane, an enormously wealthy newspaper publisher, has been living alone in Florida on his vast palatial estate, Xanadu, for the last years of his life, with a "No Trespassing" sign on the gate. On his deathbed, he holds a snow globe and utters the single word, "Rosebud", before dying; the globe slips from his hand and smashes on the floor. Kane's death becomes sensational news around the world. Newsreel reporter Jerry Thompson becomes intrigued, and decides to learn all he can about Kane's private life to discover the meaning of "Rosebud".
Citizen Kane was to open at RKO's flagship theatre, Radio City Music Hall, but did not; a possible factor was Louella Parsons's threat that The American Weekly would run a defamatory story on the grandfather of major RKO stockholder Nelson Rockefeller.
I think that it is significant that this movie is a mystery that has to do with the pursuit of power, which is one of the themes that is TCITR. That the mystery is in the form of a code, the word "Rosebud", as this mirrors how the title to The Catcher In The Rye is. I wanted to find out what the title meant.
Cosmic wrote: "...a mystery that has to do with the pursuit of power..."I see it as a movie about the pursuit of love, for what good is power without it? This poignant point is made when Kane uttered that final word and the snow globe falls.
The tip-off, other than the film's actual content, is in the term, "Rosebud." The film implies that's the name of the snow sled Kane owned as a boy, but in reality it was William Randolph Hearst's pet name for his mistress's genitalia.
The film's invasion of Hearst's privacy so enraged him that he had the film's distribution banned by threatening to permanently deny advertising to any theater that ran Citizen Kane.
Hearst also effectively controlled Parsons, whose gossip column ran in his papers, whose circulation was an astounding number, something like 15% of the US market.
Today we have Hearst's imitator, Rupert Murdoch, to worry about, an Australian immigrant who manipulates the truth, peddles junk "news" and breaks laws almost as ruthlessly.
Philip wrote: "Monty J wrote...[post # 1066 - too much to quote]
Actually, for all you numerologists, 1066 is an interesting one. For us Brits it is, anyway. 1066 AD was the year of the Norman Conquest, the la..."
Phillip, you should come to the US for a holiday some time!
Monty J wrote: "see it as a movie about the pursuit of love, for what good is power without it? This poignant point is made when Kane uttered that final word and the snow globe falls...."For some reason what you said reminded me of The Wizard in the The Wonderful Wizard of Oz.
Wiki says this about Rosebud:
Rosebud is the emblem of the security, hope and innocence of childhood, which a man can spend his life seeking to regain," summarized Roger Ebert. "It is the green light at the end of Gatsby's pier; the leopard atop Kilimanjaro, seeking nobody knows what; the bone tossed into the air in 2001."[72]
These flashbacks reveal that Kane's childhood was spent in poverty in Colorado (his parents ran a boarding house), until "the world's third largest gold mine" was discovered on the seemingly worthless property his mother had acquired. His mother, Mary, sends him away to the East to live with Thatcher, so that he may be properly educated. After gaining full control over his trust fund at the age of 25, Kane enters the newspaper business and embarks on a career of yellow journalism. He takes control of the newspaper, the New York Inquirer, and hires the best journalists available. He then rises to power by successfully manipulating public opinion regarding the Spanish American War, marrying the niece of a President of the United States, and campaigning for the office of Governor of New York.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citize...
I still haven't watched it so I don't have anything personal to add.
Cosmic wrote: "I still haven't watched it so I don't have anything personal to add."Everything I learned about the film comes from a collectors edition DVD set which includes two or three informative documentaries about the writing of the script, Orson Welles and Hearst themselves, and the epic controversy over the film's non-release. To this day the film is often at the top of the "All-time Greatest Films" list.
I highly recommend the DVD set. There are some imperfections, but still worth the effort and price. Much there to learn about American film and newspaper history as well as human nature.
Monty J wrote: Today we have Hearst's imitator, Rupert Murdoch, to worry about, an Australian immigrant who manipulates the truth, peddles junk "news" and breaks laws almost as ruthlessly.
So, you don't find FOX News to be "fair and balanced"?
You must be "unamerican". Just one of the ways in which they promote half-truths, which are worse than lies, because they sound credible to their audience.
Philip wrote: ...you wanna hear how many people feel about the USA. They see US power everywhere: from the seeds they plant in the earth to the TV they watch when they come home from work; from the way their politicians kow-tow to Washington to the operating systems of their computers. Everywhere, the dollar rules.So why is it that so many in America feel as if the sky is falling? That we are in a state of decline. We frequently hear about how much smarter they are in Asia. How they value education more than we do...
Karen wrote: "Philip wrote: "Monty J wrote...[post # 1066 - too much to quote]
Actually, for all you numerologists, 1066 is an interesting one. For us Brits it is, anyway. 1066 AD was the year of the Norman Conquest, the la..."
Phillip, you should come to the US for a holiday some time!"
Don't do the Lottery so hoping to if and when I retire (chance'd be a fine thing).
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J.D. Salinger (other topics)
Slaves or no slaves, their form of democracy was ineffective, because there were no checks and balances, leading sometimes to mob rule.