The Catcher in the Rye
discussion
Did anyone else just not "get" this book?
I don't personally like Catcher in the Rye, but that is simply my taste. I don't at all consider it simplistic or dismiss its literary value. If you liked it then more power to you.
When I first started reading I just instantly fell in love with the book. I'm pretty sure I 'get' it, but I love it no matter what and I think it's a fantastic book.
Is with all aspects of human beings, there are some of us who are more sensitive than others, those whose heart has been broken a million times, those who wear their heart on their sleeves, and those who see through the phoniness in so much of society. If you were a jock or one of the popular kids, or wanted to be, you'll NEVER get Holden. Ever. That simple. He'll always be a whiny, wimpy crybaby to you, much like you thought of all the other kids that were like that in high school. He wasthe first character who felt like we did, who personified how we thought, at a time when we felt so alone, like we were the only people who felt that way. He was the outsider, the reject, the real person. I guess if you got through life without a scratch, if your parents are still together, if you make a ton of dough andf everything is so very, very perfect, then maybe this isn't for you.
I was a jock. I got Holden.
Michael wrote: "Is with all aspects of human beings, there are some of us who are more sensitive than others, those whose heart has been broken a million times, those who wear their heart on their sleeves, and tho..."He didn't want to do the work required to make the grade, he didn't want to play the game AKA "phoniness", and that's all fine and good. Those things require effort. Let him leave, let him do his own thing, but why do we have to hear all of his whining?
Every time I think of this book I'm reminded of Mark Chapman gunning down John Lennon and then standingaround waiting to be arrested while reading THIS book, to make sure the cops find him reading it.
The question that always comes to mind is, who's the most banal loser of the bunch - Chapman, Caulfield,
or Salinger?
I guess I have to credit Salinger with making a bunch of fat doddering old farts on school boards around the
nation waste their time trying to deicide whether to ban it when they would otherwise have probably been doing even worse damage by tyrannizing hapless stoonts?
But other than that,... yaaaaawwwn...
For those who had a hard time grasping this book I fault the USA educational system, as this seems to be a matter of comprehension. Those who didn't like the book, well that would be a matter of taste. I for one loved the book.
I really wish those of you too stupid to get this book had no forum to express your lack of thought. I need to drop this site so I can avoid your wasted words
BTW, only a true moron connects Salinger to John Lennon's death as a causation argument
This book started an entire movement. Holden was the leader of the Beat Generation for years. I think it's a classic now because it had such an incredible impact on the opinions and thoughts of young people in its day.
Katie wrote: "This book started an entire movement. Holden was the leader of the Beat Generation for years. I think it's a classic now because it had such an incredible impact on the opinions and thoughts of you..."The timing of the book does seem to precede the Beat Generation.
However, all new movements (even the anti-establishment ones) have their own set of values and unwritten rules.
Would Holden have the patience and insight to really understand the nuances of the Beat Generation, or would he become frustrated with their new lingo, and end up dismissing them as a bunch of phonies?
I don't think the beat generation looked to Salinger's novel as an influence. I've never heard the Beats mention Salinger.
Not every book is meant to please everyone, and this book surely is a great example. I read this book when I was 19. A Jane Austen fan, this was quite a different genre for me but I have loved this book to the core.as said earlier, it talks about someone who has difficulty being the boy next door and yes he doesnt mind showing off is craziness and wackiness.His every action though not at all relatable are quite funny and make for a hearty read, urging you to enjoy the lighter side of the darkest grieves of life.
I think one should just immerse oneself in its flow, read it on a sunny day out..
I might have started this and wish to add: for those who are upset by our comments about not "getting" it, please don't quit or stop commenting. My only point was to evoke a discussion. A polite, thoughtful discussion. I almost hoped someone could enlighten me. maybe it was my mood when I read it - I don't know. I ignore comments that are rude but I'm very interested in comments that are thoughtful, even if we don't agree. This is Goodreads. Let's be different.
I may have achieved success in wanting to understand the book better. Some of the comments here are provocative enough that I might re-read it. Thank you.
Catcher in the Rye is one of my most loved reads. Holden..ah Holden what can I say, I love him. He is hilarious and so sincere. He really is. Even when he is saying things that are absurd he sincerely believes in what he is saying. He is genuine and really cares about people. I think he is disillusioned with society and corporate America. He sees his parents and his peers, His peers parents, his teachers, the majority of humanity and says to himself what the hell is everyone doing? Why is everyone busting their but to make a million dollars when no one is happy anyways. It is like Holden is real. He wants real relationships but he is unable to connect with anyone because the majority of people he encounters are superficial. I could talk about this book all night.I truly love it.
Ah, good common sense
Abigayil wrote: "Catcher in the Rye is one of my most loved reads. Holden..ah Holden what can I say, I love him. He is hilarious and so sincere. He really is. Even when he is saying things that are absurd he sincer..."What? A girl that loves CiTR?! Can I have your number? Wait, you live too far away. What are you waitn' for guys. You're lookin' at quality here.
Monty J wrote: "Abigayil wrote: "Catcher in the Rye is one of my most loved reads. Holden..ah Holden what can I say, I love him. He is hilarious and so sincere. He really is. Even when he is saying things that are..."Monty I was going to pm you to say I am also loving the book on the second read. Abigail is right about Holden. He is hilarious, honest and sincere in trying to find his way in a hostile world. I, as a woman, identify with him easily. It saddens and disturbs me somewhat that people dismiss him as a whiny brat when he has had so much trouble dealing with his brothers death. He is obviously in distress.
I love CitR....read it three times at different passages in my life so I found different things in it......still enjoy it upon reflection. Guess I remember most clearly the humor and teenage angst from my first read as a seventh grader.
Duane wrote: I guess I have to credit Salinger with making a bunch of fat doddering old farts on school boards around the
nation waste their time trying to deicide whether to ban it when they would otherwise have probably been doing even worse damage by tyrannizing hapless stoonts?
"
Banning the book would only validate it. Forbidden fruit always peak interest.
I think it is well written, easy to follow, and it gets ones attention. It raises questions about our traditional systems of education, which is good thing for reasonable people to address. I question whether the book is appropriate for the very young who are already unmotivated, since it may discourage them from paying their dues, i.e. learning the basics before going out on their own to "find themselves" so to speak.
You know who loves this book in particular? People who went to east coast prep schools because it captures the experience in vivid color
What are you, a pharmacist?
Mark wrote: "You know who loves this book in particular? People who went to east coast prep schools because it captures the experience in vivid color"I suspect New Yorkers in general. So many landmarks that are still there. The Central Park ducks. The two museums. The bare-breasted Eskimo squaw exhibit is still there. Crabby cabbies. Chatty cabbies. Elevator men. Doormen. Deliverymen. Hookers. Penn Station. Broadway plays. Nightclub entertainers. Skating rinks in winter.
I just think in the same way people who went to prep schools relate to A Separate Peace as well
Mark wrote: "I just think in the same way people who went to prep schools relate to A Separate Peace as well"Or perhaps Dead Poet Society? I haven't had the pleasure of A Separate Peace, but it's on my list.
I also STRONGLY suspect that a major factor in the rambling structure and overall content of CiTR is that it was largely written while overseas during wartime. This had a lot to do with Salinger's exquisite loving attention to the details of setting and character. That he cherished his memories of home is clearly evident in the richness of this content.
When away from home for three years under such incredibly dire circumstances, I suspect that the writing enabled Salinger to routinely zone out of the gore, confusion and terror, keeping him from going mad sooner than he did. Thank God the shock treatments didn't scramble his brain!
He was once seen typing away under a desk while his unit was under fire. Everyone else had taken cover. (This according to a recent Vanity Fair article.)
You will love A Separate Peace. To me, Dead Poets Society not in it's league
Monty J wrote: "Mark wrote: "You know who loves this book in particular? People who went to east coast prep schools because it captures the experience in vivid color"I suspect New Yorkers in general. So many lan..."
Speaking as a former New Yorker.....no, not really. I feel bad for anyone arriving in NYC expecting it to be like Holden's town. Things have changed. Crabby cabbies? You are more likely to be killed by a cab than anything else in NYC.
I think the story of Salinger writing while bullets fly overhead says all you need to know about his level of commitment to his craft
You should all read "APerfect Day For Bananafish"
Mark wrote: "You should all read "APerfect Day For Bananafish""That's a really good story. Actually all the stories in Salinger's Nine Stories are excellent. I think my favorite was "For Esme-With Love and Squalor."
I read it in my late teens when an English teacher friend thought it suited my rebellious nature and she was right. I loved it and wanted to be the "catcher" just like Holden. Years later I gave a copy to my teenage daughter with the same effect. I must read it again to see if my streak has mellowed over the years.
Maryann wrote: "I read this book as a freshman in college (a very long time ago!) and absolutely loved it...actually laughed out loud at much of the narrative. This is a story about Holden's rite of passage durin..."http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ca...
This book was published in 1951. It took Salinger 10 years to write it.
Andie Stockwell wrote: "I read it to see what all the fuss was about and I still have no idea. All I got out of it was a teenager whining about his life and college and girls and how everything sucks. I don't understand w..."The first time I read the Catcher I was very underwhelmed. Fortunately a friend wad visiting that had read the book and liked it. I turned right around and read it again. This time I noticed the last scene in the book with Holden giving Phoebe her own money to take a ride on the carousel.
She gets on a dead beat horse. The carousel goes around and around like a roulette wheel. She is reaching for the gold ring. Which reminded me of The Lord of the Rings. As the carousel is spinning it plays a song very fast...so it sounds like the chitmunks. The song is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbQuYg...
This reminded me of something an investor said about the stock market. He said that the stock market was a confidence game. The have to CON-Vince you that it is safe to put your money in.
"The thing is with kids...if they want to grab for the gold ring, you have to let them do it, and not say anything."
If you look at the first sentence of the book you will find David Copperfield mentioned. If you read the first page of David Copperfield you will find a clue to Holden Caulfield name.
Phoebe puts the people hunting hat on Holden's head and gets on the carousel again. Around and at she goes on the same dead beat horse. And it starts to rain....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkLTwX...
I think the reason people don't get the Catcher is because we have been told that the book is a novel rather allegory about money, the media, war and the power to make war.
I hope you will take a look at my group
https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...
I would like to change the way this book is viewed and challenge the "cliff notes" version of the book so that they can't pull the wool over your eyes. In cliff notes they don't mention the song Smoke Gets In Your Eyes....so they can tell you what they want the TEACHERS to say about the book. How can you understand that section without listening to this song?
Andie Stockwell wrote: "I read it to see what all the fuss was about and I still have no idea... Anyone care to enlighten me? "Perhaps best selling author John Green will give you some of the answers to why this book is considered so good by so many Here's a link to his You-Tube segment (part 1) on Catcher https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R66eQ...
Cosmic wrote: "Andie Stockwell wrote: "I read it to see what all the fuss was about and I still have no idea. All I got out of it was a teenager whining about his life and college and girls and how everything suc..."Interesting observations, but I don't think the average reader would look for all these hidden meanings.
Matthew wrote: "Interesting observations, but I don't think the average reader would look for all these hidden meanings. "
Well as you can see on this list the average reader didn't get the book...but at least they were smart enough to realize it. Salinger didn't get an average education. Why do you think that he would write a book for ten years that would just be average?
Andie Stockwell wrote: "I read it to see what all the fuss was about and I still have no idea. All I got out of it was a teenager whining about his life and college and girls and how everything sucks. I don't understand w..."http://jdsalinger-me.blogspot.com/201...
Matthew wrote: "I think it is well written, easy to follow, and it gets ones attention. It raises questions about our traditional systems of education, which is good thing for reasonable people to address. I question whether the book is appropriate for the very young who are already unmotivated, since it may discourage them from paying their dues, i.e. learning the basics before going out on their own to "find themselves" so to speak. ..."I agree with you about how this book makes you question school and what it is really designed for.
One of the problems I have with the current theme of this book being about mental illness is that people might think that quitting school and mental illness should be equated. Or give some justification to drugging students for depression or not questioning the idea that school itself creates depressed children by GRADING THEM (reminds me of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory movie where the girl is graded a "bad egg". ) How unfair to tarnish a child's self-esteem and then pretend to build it up psycho-babble....feel good curriculum.
The molding to play "the game" should be questioned.
Whose casino are they playing in? Or what are the odds? Could a person have better odds playing at another casino or a different game?
When you watch the movie The 39 Steps by Alfred Hitchcock (Holden took his sister to see it 10 times and she memorized it) you see that a man was programmed with facts that would be required from him when he reached a certain point. So what is the purpose of stuffing children like a goose?
Cosmic wrote: "So what is the purpose of stuffing children like a goose."I and my cohorts who attended the public schools growing up in Fort Worth, Texas, in the 1950 and '60s are living proof that public schools can provide a superlative grammar school education. I and my college bound cohorts passed the college entrance exams without needing any prep class or remedial coursework, and if you had to take remedial math or English it was an embarrassment. Few of us did, and they tended to be the more social types.
What has happened since then to degrade public school education is sad but not a complete mystery. A large part of it has been stripping the school budgets, particularly funding for the arts, which came about after civil rights legislation required school integration. Private schools proliferated for people who didn't want their kids socialized with blacks, and they didn't want their taxes going to fund it either. It's more complicated than just integration, but the coorelation between integration and degradation is clear.
I think I'll get a job with the school system and find out from the inside and raise some hell about it.
If anything is sacred it's the public education system. It brings kids together as equals, no matter what their economic or social status. The playground establishes the foundation for the concept of a level paying field, so fundamental to a democratic sense of fairness and equality.
Monty J wrote: "If anything is sacred it's the public education system. It brings kids together as equals, no matter what their economic or social status. The playground establishes the foundation for the concept of a level paying field, so fundamental to a democratic sense of fairness and equality. This is some incredible "New Speak", Monty.
I think if you spent time in school it wouldn't take you long to realize that humans were not designed to value "equality." Especially on the playground, but also in the classroom. Why grade people and thus distinguish a child's strengths and weaknesses to him before he has had time to developed any "real" strengths, unless it is to create inferiority.
Saying that "public school is sacred" really should be questioned!
I suppose it depends on what your goals are. There is always a place for the average, the mediocre, the below average. There is nothing wrong with that. Many wealthy parents will spare no expense to make sure that their children are successful. For some it means private schools, boarding or non-boarding. They may not be ideal for everyone but for some individuals they are a good fit. I agree that one can also get an excellent education at public schools, but I would think that it's easier for students to go astray and hang out with the wrong crowd in public schools.
Cosmic wrote: "... humans were not designed to value "equality."Of course not. Humans were not "designed" at all. We are the highest order of mere animals, with all the same survival, kill or be killed, instincts.
Life for humans is a continual balance between native urge to climb to the top of the food chain and to maintain social order and strength. This is aptly demonstrated today in the Middle East, where sectarian violence has ruled since before the Middle Ages.
Animals are not designed to value equality, but the higher order of the animal kingdom have learned to organize, socialize and cooperate for the betterment of the group. Killer whales hunt and protect themselves more effectively in groups. Primates do the same. Humans even more so.
Democratic society has proven again and again to be the highest form of social cooperation and success. We should constantly strive to refine and strengthen it rather than encourage devolving into the lesser forms of social order shown in the Middle East and other parts of the world.
"Saying that "public school is sacred" really should be questioned!"
Unquestionably. I questioned it thoroughly, many times, before reaching that conclusion. It IS sacred.
Hi Monty!I know I've been out of this thread for a while, but I just read the last few posts here. Can I take issue with a couple of the points you made about violence in societies?
The first is that the Middle East has been in a state of flux since the Balfour Declaration opened up Palestine to an unusual kind of immigration. Before that, I think it enjoyed many long periods of peace.
Secondly, I wish it were true, but Democracy does not always equate with peace. If we go back to the ancient Greeks, who invented the modern idea of voting for leaders and rotating public duties. At the same time, there were many internal and external conflicts.
Philip wrote: "Hi Monty!I know I've been out of this thread for a while, but I just read the last few posts here. Can I take issue with a couple of the points you made about violence in societies?
The first is..."
Brings this to mind http://youtu.be/fbT1fCHOjfI
Philip wrote: "Hi Monty!Secondly, I wish it were true, but Democracy does not always equate with peace. If we go back to the ancient Greeks, who invented the modern idea of voting for leaders and rotating public duties. At the same time, there were many internal and external conflicts. "
Agreed. The democracy of the ancient Greeks was essentially a free-for-all. The Athenian Democracy was only as stable as its leader. They were strong under the leadership of Pericles, but when he died there was too much in-fighting and their system fell apart.
Polybius was the first to recognize the superiority of a Republic or mixed government over a pure democracy.
Montesquieu used Polybius' ideas to come up with the concept of separation of powers (executive, legislative, judicial) which our founding fathers used as a model.
I read this book recently, and I'm in my early 20s. I'm not particularly close to Holden's age, but that doesn't mean I didn't love the book. Holden isn't just complaining about his teenage life or everything around him, he complains about everything because he's absolutely insecure and pretty much hates himself. And that hatred for himself converts into hatred for anybody and anything that he comes across.
I love the book for one simple reason, the days that I was reading the book made me absolutely miserable. But the last chapter just changed things. I book that has the power to affect your moods, clearly is a powerful one.
Matthew wrote: "Agreed. The democracy of the ancient Greeks was essentially a free-for-all. ..."It was my understanding that the only way that democracy worked, according to the Greeks, was where there was self government. I also think the Greeks had slaves...so that it wasn't free for everyone, right?
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I finally read this when I was ~30 years old. I think it is more aptly read when one is a teenager themselves. I missed my window and perhaps you did as well.