House of Chains - May 15-22 Book 1 Faces in the Rock Chapters 1-4

[Julie]

Just getting the discussion rolling, can you tell I'm looking forward to the next book? Started it last night!

[Julie]

So here is my initial reaction to the Prologue and First couple parts of Chapter 1 - UGH! Another new race that I know nothing about?! Then of course Mr. Erikson draws you in and the next thing I'm thinking is where do these new "Gods" come from (it seems there are ALOT of Gods in these books) and who are the Teblor? I can't wait to see if the people in the Prologue are the same as the Teblor?

Obviously in the Prologue there is are two realms trying to play together after a cataclysmic event, which I hope is explained later. And a new race is being set up.

Just a bit through the first chapter I see that the CG (Crippled God) is playing some part here with the Seven Gods. I really don't like how CG always follows the blood!!

[Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos]

OK, I think I am having computer problems, lol...I keep making posts only to see they already exist,,,,

Book 1 tells the backstory of Karsa Orlong...A man of great faith in himself, his tribe, his world...the way he thinks things are, and how he lost it all.

What did you think about how he is interacting with his family and friends???
When did you start to see it wasn't all it seemed?

[Julie]

Having only read a couple of pages into chapter one, I think that Karsa Orlong is an arrogant fool! I hated how he first interacts with his family and friends and I do suspect that his Mom and Dad knew/know something about the Seven Gods which led to his Mom's death and his Dad's attitude. I loved it where Pahlk threw out his own father. You know something is going to happen there....

[Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos]

You probably have at least heard from them Julie--the people in the prologue are the Tiste Edur, and this prologue is a little tease for the NEXT book...its crazy how things like this show the detailed planning going on here
The catclysmic event doesnt really make sense right yet, but a 'sundered warren' can not be a good thing, can it?

Now just some food for thought...just because somebody SAYS they're a god, are they one? This can sometimes be a theme in these books...and it is fair to say that just the fact that ANYONE worships someone does give that person SOME kind of power. We saw with K'rul that when he was forgotten due to Kallor's curse that his powers waned horribly.

[Julie]

Thanks for the hint about who the people were in the prologue. I didn't guess the Tiste Edur I was thinking the Segulah because of what I've seen of their culture. Yeah, 'sundered warren' is NOT a good thing.

I caught that these "people" were gaining power from the "worship" of the Teblor but I also found it interesting that they need help from someone else to be completely free.

[Sandra]

Maggie wrote: "You probably have at least heard from them Julie--the people in the prologue are the Tiste Edur, and this prologue is a little tease for the NEXT book...its crazy how things like this show the deta..."

Well, it's certainly a historical theme that people aspire to be gods and seem to think that saying it aloud makes it so. I just finished reading
I, Claudius and those Roman emperors loved declaring themselves to be gods. What a hoot.

[Shelley]

Julie wrote: "Thanks for the hint about who the people were in the prologue. I didn't guess the Tiste Edur I was thinking the Segulah because of what I've seen of their culture. Yeah, 'sundered warren' is NOT ..."

It's funny but even though I've read everything before I still take the time to go over the Maps and Dramatis Personae section with interest because for one each book has a map in it that we haven't seen before and the DP aids as a reminder of who's who! In HoC we have a map of Northern Genabackis, an area we have only heard about thru the Bridgeburners stories of the Mott campaigns. I have to say that House of Chains is such an important book to this series and as you get past Book One: Faces of the Rock you will see how the previous three installments were a "bridge" to where the series is going!

As much as I have breezed over prologues in the past, I don't anymore. :) In House's prologue we meet (*one of my favorite characters!*) Trull Sengar, which is unusual because in past prologues we were generally given a bit of history pertinent to the story yes, but a bit of history done the less, here we meet a new character so...why the change? I found it also interesting how the whole prologue was from Trull's vantage but he never spoke. In Trull's mental dialog he asks the question "What have we come to?" and by the end of the scene he answers his own question with "And this is what we have come to." Trull's depth of character is one of the biggest draws for me, that Erikson see the human condition so clearly and this is reflected best thru Trull.

In chapter one we meet another new character, Karsa Orlong a Teblor, who Julie has aptly described! :) I've only made it to page 50, so I'm not too far along but the Teblor sound like a blood thirstily lot don't they!? I may blow everyone's mind when I say I LOVE KARSA....but not young Karsa more like I LOVE FUTURE KARSA!! :)

But I do remember my first reading of Faces of the Rock and wondering for the life of me where SE was going with ALL this, what MORE new characters, MORE new Gods, more more more... Well I stand corrected and I'm a lover of "MORE" now!! :)

[Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos]

Also, at our first meeting of the faces int he rock, notice their physical appearance when they manifest themselves...sound familiar at all?

One thing I found really disturbing was the army they had put together of the 'sacrificed' siblings...what a horrible concept!

[Julie]

Yeah, I caught the reference to their physical appearances....T'lan Imass, but they're not the "good" ones.

I also was struck by Karsa's dream of being chained to the Faces in the Rock or rather being chained to all the people he has killed?? Another reference to the Chained One and his subtle influences?

I'm starting to like Karsa a bit more now that I'm reading into Chapter 3. He and the Teblor culture are like children, even though they call everyone else children. It is a very simple way to live. You have your bad guys and good guys and you kill everything else. You live by your word as well. Now that Karsa has been exposed to other cultures, some uncomfortable truths about his grandfather and further revelations about the Teblor history his previous assumptions are being challenged. How he reacts to all this and how he grows as a person will be fun to watch.

[Sandra]

Julie wrote: "Yeah, I caught the reference to their physical appearances....T'lan Imass, but they're not the "good" ones.

I also was struck by Karsa's dream of being chained to the Faces in the Rock or rather b..."

I would think that one would be 'chained to' the people one has killed.

[Julie]

I see what you mean Sandra but I wouldn't think it of these people. My take on them is that they are barbarians and just don't know better. However, when Karsa sees the chains then I believe he starts growing up!

[Sandra]

Julie wrote: "I see what you mean Sandra but I wouldn't think it of these people. My take on them is that they are barbarians and just don't know better. However, when Karsa sees the chains then I believe he s..."

So maybe that's what it means, symbolically.

[Shelley]

Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Julie wrote: "Yeah, I caught the reference to their physical appearances....T'lan Imass, but they're not the "good" ones.

I also was struck by Karsa's dream of being chained to the Faces in the Ro..." I would think that one would be 'chained to' the people one has killed.

Actually in this case that would be a wrong interpretation. Those souls ARE chained to Karsa, remember there is a reason for everything in SE writing, so trust me there is a reason why they are chained to Karsa....

As to the Faces of the Rock, nice catch Julie! :) I don't think I caught onto that until WAYYYY later!

[Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos]

I really like the whole vibe that starts happening re: show don't tell how someone's faith breaks down....Karsa has a lot journey ahead of him, in a lot of ways.

[Julie]

Just finished Chapter 4....okay the Toblakai (or Teblor) and the Barghast and Trell (i.e. Mappo) come from them. As it stands now, both the Barghast and the Toblakai don't remember their history and didn't we find out in Memories of Ice from Twist that the Moranth are somehow related to the Barghast too. And that all of them are related back to the T'lan Imass??? Or something like that, I'm remembering a reference but I'm not sure if I'm remembering it correctly.

And Icarium was involved in the reasons why the Teblor forgot but a Trell is watching over him. What a tangled web we weave?

[Shelley]

Julie wrote: "Just finished Chapter 4....okay the Toblakai (or Teblor) and the Barghast and Trell (i.e. Mappo) come from them. As it stands now, both the Barghast and the Toblakai don't remember their history a..."

All correct or as correct as we know it to this point, there's more to the story but we haven't gotten that far yet.

As far as coming from the T'lan Imass, I look at the Imass and T'lan Imass in the same manner as I do the Neanderthal of our past, and the question that has been asked regarding our own past is do we come from them or were they just the ones before us???

And as you will find Julie Icarium's story is still unfolding, so we'll learn more about him soon! :)

[Julie]

I see it the same way, the T'lan Imass as the predecessors but the difference is they are still around, which adds a whole other dimension to things. They know these peoples and where they came from yet, they do not really acknowledge them in any way (well at least at this point). I guess they are too caught up in their own "stuff".

[Shelley]

Julie wrote: "I see it the same way, the T'lan Imass as the predecessors but the difference is they are still around, which adds a whole other dimension to things. They know these peoples and where they came fr..."

Sort of, when the Imass sundered their life essence and became T'lan Imass they gave up the worries of life itself and focused only on killing Jaghut. So I would think they found no purpose in passing down knowledge.

[Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos]

also, they look down upon anyone of their race who did not join in the 'ritual'

[Julie]

Maggie wrote: "also, they look down upon anyone of their race who did not join in the 'ritual'"

Yet, at the end of Memories of Ice they started thinking that Tool was right to not want to do the 'ritual'.

[Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos]

oh yes, they are definitely going to learn their mistake, but remember this is before that chronologically...when Karsa is in captivity with the Malazans they hear them talking about the seige happening at Pale...plus, Tool was a first sword, he is bad-ass enough to be able to overcome anyone's 'disapproval'

[Shelley]

The T'lan Imass of the ritual are like a 'collective' with only one purpose....kill Jaghut! So when Tool became unbound he was able to think for himself and choose different.

For anyone further along I was wondering what you that of the scene in chapter two with the Forkrul Assail?? And the waterfall scene?

[Julie]

Tool became unbound? I guess I never understood that he did because he was still undead. I guess I was thinking if a T'lan Imass became unbound they died. But I guess Tool was unbound because he had no tribe?

As far as the Forkrul Assail, I just filed it away because I don't think that I have enough information in the books so far to figure it out. I know that it will be explained in a fashion later on.

[Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos]

Julie wrote: "Tool became unbound? I guess I never understood that he did because he was still undead. I guess I was thinking if a T'lan Imass became unbound they died. But I guess Tool was unbound because he..."

lol-this is the perfect attitude for Malazan...you have to have faith things will be explained eventually!!!

[Shelley]

Julie wrote: "Tool became unbound? I guess I never understood that he did because he was still undead. I guess I was thinking if a T'lan Imass became unbound they died. But I guess Tool was unbound because he..."

LOLLLLL....so true Maggie!! :)

I know it seems like a long time ago, but back in Gardens when we first meet Tool he tells Lorn that he was chosen to serve the Malazan Empire because he was clanless and so unbound, this is important because they were going to free the Tyrant who could influence a person AND their whole family too.

Hint, hint....read and then reread anything and everything to do with Forkrul Assail! There are very few references to them thru out, but every drop of information will be important!

I will say the first time I read the scene with Calm and she says what she says to Karsa, gave me goosebumps...

[Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos]

another part to pay close attention to is where their ship passes into a storm and ends up in the other warren....now we know how the Tiste Edur on the Silanda were killed...but how did it get in their hands in the first place?????? It s the plotline that goes backwards!

[Shelley]

Maggie wrote: "another part to pay close attention to is where their ship passes into a storm and ends up in the other warren....now we know hoe the Tiste Edur on the Silanda were killed...but how did it get in t..."

The scene you're talking about Maggie is one of my favorite monents in the whole series...a full circle moment! :) From that point on I really tried to pay attention to everything!!

[Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos]

Yup-it's a good example of how Erikson works!

[Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos]

Meeting Keeper is interesting too...another Malazan hermit, this one Napan? Hmmm.....and then the poem at the start of the next chapter is about how drowned Napans never surface...lol

[Shelley]

Sorry gang been behind at work and on the reading but I am catching up!!

Torvald Nom is such a great character and so witty!! His and Karsa's friendship is really something special too! When they wash ashore on Keeper's island and Karsa kills the shark and Torvald says "No one would believe me." I laughed so hard!! And then later Keeper says he doesn't believe Torvald's story of Karsa killing the shark, I really laughed!!!!!!

So, I have another person for my most hated list, Slavemaster Silgar!! I know that Karsa gets his revenge on the slavemaster but I still can't stand him!

[Shelley]

Oh one more thing.... One of the last conversations Tornald and Karsa have where they are talking about words and Karsa tells Tornald that as warleader he had followers but he did not have allies, and that NOW he knew the vast difference between the two...this is the point that I started to really like Karsa! :)