Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Discussion - Moby Dick
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Week 6 - through Chapter 128
Any and all grammar or spelling errors freely forgiven.
(at least you made them yourself. I'm using a different computor...and it auto corrects when it thinks my spelling is wrong. You can't imagine how much difficulty I had trying to write "Laurele."!)
Will review chapters 86/87 through 128 tomorrow.
(at least you made them yourself. I'm using a different computor...and it auto corrects when it thinks my spelling is wrong. You can't imagine how much difficulty I had trying to write "Laurele."!)
Will review chapters 86/87 through 128 tomorrow.
I'm wondering if anyone else felt echoes of Macbeth in these chapters. The Musket strongly reminded me of Macbeth's soliloquy right before he kills Duncan, and Fedallah's prophecies reminded me of those of the Weird Sisters. Macbeth can't die until Birnam Wood comes to Dunsinane and can't be killed by anyone born of woman. Ahab can't die until he sees two hearses, one "not made by mortal hands, and the other made from wood grown in America." It seems to me they promise a very similar false security.
Audrey wrote: "Fedallah's prophecies reminded me of those of the Weird Sisters. Macbeth can't die until Birnam Wood comes to Dunsinane and can't be killed by anyone born of woman. Ahab can't die until he sees two hearses, one "not made by mortal hands, and the other made from wood grown in America." It seems to me they promise a very similar false security. "Beautiful point! I love it when such disparate works can be brought together so compellingly.
The effect of the Weird Sisters prophecy certainly seemed to embolden Macbeth and give him (what turned out to be false) courage. One wonders whether the prophecies of Fedallah (there's one my spell checker hates!) had, or will have, the same effect on Ahab.
Audrey wrote: "I'm wondering if anyone else felt echoes of Macbeth in these chapters. The Musket strongly reminded me of Macbeth's soliloquy right before he kills Duncan, and Fedallah's prophecies reminded me of..."Excellent. I also keep equating Starbuck with Hamlet and Ahab with King Lear.
Laurele wrote: "also keep equating Starbuck with Hamlet and Ahab with King Lear."
Ahab with Lear? You'll have to explain that one to me. Is it just the madness? But Lear wasn't monomaniacal, and after the first scene of the play he was the recipient, not the purveyor, of power and authority.
Everyman wrote: "Laurele wrote: "also keep equating Starbuck with Hamlet and Ahab with King Lear."
Ahab with Lear? You'll have to explain that one to me. Is it just the madness? But Lear wasn't monomaniacal, a..."
I'm thinking of Lear raging in the storm.
Laurele wrote: "I'm thinking of Lear raging in the storm. "Ah. Okay.
Laurele wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Laurele wrote: "also keep equating Starbuck with Hamlet and Ahab with King Lear."
Ahab with Lear? You'll have to explain that one to me. Is it just the madness? But Lear wasn'..."
In The Cabin, ch. 129, Ahab and Pip have a dynamic that seems similar to Lear and the Fool... though Pip seems rather more dim than your average Shakespearean fool.
Thomas wrote: "Laurele wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Laurele wrote: "also keep equating Starbuck with Hamlet and Ahab with King Lear."
Ahab with Lear? You'll have to explain that one to me. Is it just the madne..."
I kept on comparing Pip with Ophelia (Hamlet). I felt that they had both lost their innocence and both lost their wits. It may have also been due to the strange songs that they both keep singing.
I'm curious what people think of Starbuck's temptation to kill Ahab and his decision not to do so. I think this can be taken a lot of different ways. Is this, for instance, the failure to stand up to Ahab that was foreshadowed when we first met him? Starbuck firmly believes Ahab will cause the death of possibly the entire crew: "Yes, it would make him the wilful murderer of thirty men and more, if this ship come to any deadly harm; and come to deadly harm, my soul swears this ship will, if Ahab have his way." Or was it the only moral decision he could make under the circumstances, murder and mutiny being unforgivable in all but a very few circumstances?
Audrey wrote: "I'm curious what people think of Starbuck's temptation to kill Ahab and his decision not to do so. I think this can be taken a lot of different ways. Is this, for instance, the failure to stand u..."Starbuck seems to change his mind when Ahab cries out in his sleep:
Great God, where art thou? Shall I? shall I?—The wind has gone down and shifted, Sir; the fore and main topsails are reefed and set; she heads her course."
"Stern all! Oh Moby Dick, I clutch thy heart at last!"
Such were the sounds that now came hurtling from out the old man's tormented sleep, as if Starbuck's voice had caused the long dumb dream to speak.
Starbuck is a sensitive and superstitious man, and there is something supernatural about Ahab that is truly frightening. Starbuck has a crisis of faith. He shows us something human in contrast to Ahab's blind will to destroy.
Everyman wrote: "Sailing onward.
I found Chapter 109 fascinating in thoroughly confusing me as to the relative importance Ahab gives to seeking Moby Dick and fulfilling his commercial task of filling his ship ..."
Firstly, towards the aspect you brought up: I think it COULD have been, as the narrator said, a couple of different things...but I think that Ahab, the sensible Ahab, after thinking on Starbucks' words: "let Ahab beware of Ahab" (wonderful)... the sensible Ahab realized that the oil WAS important to him. I say this because he so fully was engaged in hunting whales earlier in the book...not just Moby Dick...and it's who he was for, what? 40 years? So I'm thinking he realized the oil was important.
(shh! But not most important.)
I VERY much enjoyed chapter 109, "Ahab and Starbuck in the Cabin." There were, I felt so many great, revealing lines in the chapter.
"the wonderous old man"...If it's Ishmael telling the tale at this point, we can see how he has come to feel about Ahab.
The truths that Ahab knows about himself. "Let it leak! I'm all aleak myself. Aye! leaks in leaks. not only full of leaky casks, but those leaky casks are in a leaky ship; and that's a far worse plight than the Pequod's, man"
In the cabin (a more interior conversation), it seemed to me that Ahab and Starbucks were having a more honest conversation, more, I'm thinking, like they used in years past.
Some really great lines!
"Thou art always prating to me, Starbuck, about those miserly owners, as if the owners were my conscience. ... hark ye, my conscience is this ship's keel.--On deck!"
And how could I pass over without mentioning, "There is one God that is Lord over the earth, and one Captain that is lord over the Peguod.--On deck!"
Now, this MIGHT just be Ahab being all monomaniac (right word?)...however, the tone, especially that "On deck!" and the conclusion of both those lines struck me as rather petulant. Akin to "Listen to what I want...and get out of here and don't tell me stuff I don't want to hear! On deck!"
Another most excellent line: "He waxes brave, but nevertheless obeys; most careful bravery that!" murmured Ahab.
Now Ahab COULD be hoisting the Burtons (whatever the Burtons are? Surely not Liz and Dick) in his clever/insane way just to appease Starbuck and keep the ship running smoothly until his real goal of grappling with Moby Dick is attained...lest the crew, perhaps?? start to wonder about their wages and their captain....and quash his plans for good....but, no, I do think the sensible Ahab DOES value the oil and would want to honor the whales that have been killed ... and wasting the whales' oil would dishonor them and would dishonor the men who had hunted those whales...
I found Chapter 109 fascinating in thoroughly confusing me as to the relative importance Ahab gives to seeking Moby Dick and fulfilling his commercial task of filling his ship ..."
Firstly, towards the aspect you brought up: I think it COULD have been, as the narrator said, a couple of different things...but I think that Ahab, the sensible Ahab, after thinking on Starbucks' words: "let Ahab beware of Ahab" (wonderful)... the sensible Ahab realized that the oil WAS important to him. I say this because he so fully was engaged in hunting whales earlier in the book...not just Moby Dick...and it's who he was for, what? 40 years? So I'm thinking he realized the oil was important.
(shh! But not most important.)
I VERY much enjoyed chapter 109, "Ahab and Starbuck in the Cabin." There were, I felt so many great, revealing lines in the chapter.
"the wonderous old man"...If it's Ishmael telling the tale at this point, we can see how he has come to feel about Ahab.
The truths that Ahab knows about himself. "Let it leak! I'm all aleak myself. Aye! leaks in leaks. not only full of leaky casks, but those leaky casks are in a leaky ship; and that's a far worse plight than the Pequod's, man"
In the cabin (a more interior conversation), it seemed to me that Ahab and Starbucks were having a more honest conversation, more, I'm thinking, like they used in years past.
Some really great lines!
"Thou art always prating to me, Starbuck, about those miserly owners, as if the owners were my conscience. ... hark ye, my conscience is this ship's keel.--On deck!"
And how could I pass over without mentioning, "There is one God that is Lord over the earth, and one Captain that is lord over the Peguod.--On deck!"
Now, this MIGHT just be Ahab being all monomaniac (right word?)...however, the tone, especially that "On deck!" and the conclusion of both those lines struck me as rather petulant. Akin to "Listen to what I want...and get out of here and don't tell me stuff I don't want to hear! On deck!"
Another most excellent line: "He waxes brave, but nevertheless obeys; most careful bravery that!" murmured Ahab.
Now Ahab COULD be hoisting the Burtons (whatever the Burtons are? Surely not Liz and Dick) in his clever/insane way just to appease Starbuck and keep the ship running smoothly until his real goal of grappling with Moby Dick is attained...lest the crew, perhaps?? start to wonder about their wages and their captain....and quash his plans for good....but, no, I do think the sensible Ahab DOES value the oil and would want to honor the whales that have been killed ... and wasting the whales' oil would dishonor them and would dishonor the men who had hunted those whales...
Everyman wrote: "I'm hoping we can get a discussion which will help me figure out what the chapter on Queequeg's coffin is really all about. Is there more there than meets the eye, and if so what?
..."
Well, absolutely it is! The whole book is more than meets the eye, eh?
Chapter 110, "Queequeg in his Coffin"
mMMMMMmmm. I suppose it could mean anything. I did think, though, that here was Queegueg, with a fevor that had him "close to the very sill of the door of death." {Ahab, too, had suffered a terrible fevor.}
Now, I don't know if Ahab had always "looked like a man who was cut away" (chapter 28), but that's what had struck Ishmael when Ishmael had first seen Ahab.
Whereas of Queegueg, now, "there seemed but little left of him but his frame and tattooing" (493).
And Queequeg seems to have come through his fevor MORE truly himself than Ahab did. For Ahab had been "cut away"...and when you cut away from an embankment, or foundation, or person, most often, the result is a weakening...it's no longer stable...Ahab certainly isn't stable. Ahab's leg has been cut away, too.
Queegueg, on the other hand, "wasted away...but [for] his frame and tattooing." In Queegueg case, I'm thinking, what wasted away were things that had accummulated on him over his years...but his frame {his structure, his interior/pschological support system} remained. AND ... he still had his tattoos....which represented meaning in Queegueg's life.
The "true" aspects of Qq have simply intensified. There's nothing wrong with Qq except for the fact that he's dying. And because he knows who he is, he can accept that. He can accept his fate. "all the more congenial to him, being a whaleman, that like a whale-boat these coffin-canoes were without a keel..." Qq will accept his fate, he won't try to steer it himself as he dies.
But back in the last chapter, there was Ahab: "my conscience is this ship's keel." All "I am the master of my fate."
But wait. Qq doesn't die. "it was Queequeg's conceit, that if a man made up his mind to live, mere sickness could not kill him: nothing but a whale, or a gale, or some violent, ungovernable, unintelligent destoyer of that sort" (497). And Queegueg doesn't die.
Ahab didn't die either. But in a philosphical sense, Ahab didn't make up his mind to live...Ahab made up his mind to not die...and he didn't have a life anymore...he had an obsession.
But Queegueg, "many spare hours he spent, in carving the lid [of the coffin] with all manner of grotesque figures and drawings; [believed by the men to be Qq's attempt to replicate this body tattoos unto the wood]...a mystical treatise on the art of attaining truth."
If we go back to the early section of the book, The Whiteness of the Whale, we had a discussion on "meaning"...and I think Bill wrote quite a bit about man's search for meaning....and what not having a sense of meaning in one's life might result in...
So here's Queegueg, carving the meaning of life into this piece of wood, this no-longer-needed coffin. But everyone needs meaning in their lives. There's no point in living without it. Surely there's someone on board the Pequod who could use some help in finding meaning in their lives.
Perhaps the significance of the coffin is that it so often takes a near-death experience---our own or someone close to us---to compel us to examine our own lives.
Or, you know, maybe it means something totally different.
Thought I would give it a go.
..."
Well, absolutely it is! The whole book is more than meets the eye, eh?
Chapter 110, "Queequeg in his Coffin"
mMMMMMmmm. I suppose it could mean anything. I did think, though, that here was Queegueg, with a fevor that had him "close to the very sill of the door of death." {Ahab, too, had suffered a terrible fevor.}
Now, I don't know if Ahab had always "looked like a man who was cut away" (chapter 28), but that's what had struck Ishmael when Ishmael had first seen Ahab.
Whereas of Queegueg, now, "there seemed but little left of him but his frame and tattooing" (493).
And Queequeg seems to have come through his fevor MORE truly himself than Ahab did. For Ahab had been "cut away"...and when you cut away from an embankment, or foundation, or person, most often, the result is a weakening...it's no longer stable...Ahab certainly isn't stable. Ahab's leg has been cut away, too.
Queegueg, on the other hand, "wasted away...but [for] his frame and tattooing." In Queegueg case, I'm thinking, what wasted away were things that had accummulated on him over his years...but his frame {his structure, his interior/pschological support system} remained. AND ... he still had his tattoos....which represented meaning in Queegueg's life.
The "true" aspects of Qq have simply intensified. There's nothing wrong with Qq except for the fact that he's dying. And because he knows who he is, he can accept that. He can accept his fate. "all the more congenial to him, being a whaleman, that like a whale-boat these coffin-canoes were without a keel..." Qq will accept his fate, he won't try to steer it himself as he dies.
But back in the last chapter, there was Ahab: "my conscience is this ship's keel." All "I am the master of my fate."
But wait. Qq doesn't die. "it was Queequeg's conceit, that if a man made up his mind to live, mere sickness could not kill him: nothing but a whale, or a gale, or some violent, ungovernable, unintelligent destoyer of that sort" (497). And Queegueg doesn't die.
Ahab didn't die either. But in a philosphical sense, Ahab didn't make up his mind to live...Ahab made up his mind to not die...and he didn't have a life anymore...he had an obsession.
But Queegueg, "many spare hours he spent, in carving the lid [of the coffin] with all manner of grotesque figures and drawings; [believed by the men to be Qq's attempt to replicate this body tattoos unto the wood]...a mystical treatise on the art of attaining truth."
If we go back to the early section of the book, The Whiteness of the Whale, we had a discussion on "meaning"...and I think Bill wrote quite a bit about man's search for meaning....and what not having a sense of meaning in one's life might result in...
So here's Queegueg, carving the meaning of life into this piece of wood, this no-longer-needed coffin. But everyone needs meaning in their lives. There's no point in living without it. Surely there's someone on board the Pequod who could use some help in finding meaning in their lives.
Perhaps the significance of the coffin is that it so often takes a near-death experience---our own or someone close to us---to compel us to examine our own lives.
Or, you know, maybe it means something totally different.
Thought I would give it a go.
I didn't notice this until I saw the two quotes juxtaposed in your previous post, but they really struck me there."all the more congenial to him, being a whaleman, that like a whale-boat these coffin-canoes were without a keel..."
"my conscience is this ship's keel."
Sounds to me like Ahab's saying he doesn't have a conscience. Now, I tend to think Ahab is given to exaggeration, but it's still a strong statement.
For the record, I don't think Ahab cares about the oil. I think they pursued normal whaling procedure to keep the crew placated, and also because Ahab must have felt that it couldn't hurt to make some money on his vengeance voyage. It's an extra bonus. But he doesn't want it to interfere with his real purpose, and he says at some point that fixing the leaks will waste time. I think he does it in the end, because he doesn't want an open breach between himself and his first mate, which would be bad politics. I say that, because I see absolutely no proof that Ahab's interested in making money on this voyage.
Everyman wrote: "What of Ahab's destruction of the quadrant -- is this akin to the ruler that lashed the sea to punish it? Or is it more pointing out how much humans rely on the instruments and instrumentalities they have created to help them make life decisions?"Hi all, I'm back. Grad school stole me for a few weeks, I'm afraid!
I thought Ahab's destruction of the quadrant was about his monomania (of course, I almost have a monomania about Ahab's monomania- I think everything is about it!) He only cares about the future, finding Moby Dick, and will fling aside everything that can't help him towards that end. Granted in this case it's insane, the quadrant is a much better tool of navigation than dead reckoning, but Ahab doesn't care . . . it's almost as if the quadrant symbolizes everything he's supposed to care about, and doesn't any longer.
Audrey wrote: "I didn't notice this until I saw the two quotes juxtaposed in your previous post, but they really struck me there.
. ..."
I thought Ahab was saying that his own, very strong conscience is the keel of the ship...and the ship is most obviously being directed by Ahab... And he says that line with such fervor... mmm.... however....perhaps Ahab is so unbalanced that he BELIEVES that his obsession is his conscience???
Interesting to read your take on how important the oil is or isn't to Ahab. Because certain a case could be made for either position. VERY nice to read yours...as you also have good points to back it up.
. ..."
I thought Ahab was saying that his own, very strong conscience is the keel of the ship...and the ship is most obviously being directed by Ahab... And he says that line with such fervor... mmm.... however....perhaps Ahab is so unbalanced that he BELIEVES that his obsession is his conscience???
Interesting to read your take on how important the oil is or isn't to Ahab. Because certain a case could be made for either position. VERY nice to read yours...as you also have good points to back it up.
Adelle wrote: "I thought Ahab was saying that his own, very strong conscience is the keel of the ship...and the ship is most obviously being directed by Ahab..."That's how I took it. It's his monomania again: so strong that it acts like a keel, steadying the ship, keeping it on the same course.
Thomas wrote: "Audrey wrote: "I'm curious what people think of Starbuck's temptation to kill Ahab and his decision not to do so. I think this can be taken a lot of different ways. Is this, for instance, the fai..."
"I found both posts 11 and 12 (Audrey and Thomas) interesting on this question. And an excellent question.
Chapter 123, "The Musket"
Not a spoiler; but long.
(view spoiler)
"I found both posts 11 and 12 (Audrey and Thomas) interesting on this question. And an excellent question.
Chapter 123, "The Musket"
Not a spoiler; but long.
(view spoiler)
Audrey wrote: "I didn't notice this until I saw the two quotes juxtaposed in your previous post, but they really struck me there.
"all the more congenial to him, being a whaleman, that like a whale-boat these ..."
Audrey, a read those over twice and then a thrice time. I do believe that you are correct. It DOES seem to read as though Ahab is saying that he doesn't have a conscience. I take back what I said and now I totally agree with you. GREAT observation!
"all the more congenial to him, being a whaleman, that like a whale-boat these ..."
Audrey, a read those over twice and then a thrice time. I do believe that you are correct. It DOES seem to read as though Ahab is saying that he doesn't have a conscience. I take back what I said and now I totally agree with you. GREAT observation!
S. Rosemary wrote: "Adelle wrote: "I thought Ahab was saying that his own, very strong conscience is the keel of the ship...and the ship is most obviously being directed by Ahab..."
That's how I took it. It's his mo..."
I did, too. And I felt strongly. But now it SO looks to me as though Audrey has seen it more clearly than I.
That's how I took it. It's his mo..."
I did, too. And I felt strongly. But now it SO looks to me as though Audrey has seen it more clearly than I.
Adelle wrote: "For scarcely has Starbuck yelled out to his God, then Ahab speaks, “as if Starbuck’s voice had caused the long dumb dream to speak.”"I'm a little confused here. Is the implication that Ahab is God? Starbuck is holding the musket at the door, shaking like "a drunkard's arm", when he hears Ahab raving about Moby Dick in his tormented sleep. Then he puts the musket away. The voice of Ahab has dissuaded him, or simply frightened him. He can't face Ahab himself and sends Stubb to do it instead. In simple terms, Starbuck chickens out -- he loses faith in himself. I'm not sure about his faith in God; it isn't clear to me that he believes that murdering Ahab would not be justified because he offers plenty of justification. He just can't do it. He isn't strong enough.
Thomas wrote: "Adelle wrote: "For scarcely has Starbuck yelled out to his God, then Ahab speaks, “as if Starbuck’s voice had caused the long dumb dream to speak.”"I'm a little confused here. Is the implication ..."
To me, Starbuck is very much like Hamlet here, though trying to prevent loss of life rather than to avenge it. I don't see either man as a coward: things just aren't all black and white.
Thomas wrote: "Adelle wrote: "For scarcely has Starbuck yelled out to his God, then Ahab speaks, “as if Starbuck’s voice had caused the long dumb dream to speak.”"
I'm a little confused here. Is the implication ..."
posts 22 and 23:
From my reading, no, there is no implication that Ahab is God. As I read it ( and the whole BOOK is so open to varying interpretations! ),
long, but not a spoiler: (view spoiler)
I'm a little confused here. Is the implication ..."
posts 22 and 23:
From my reading, no, there is no implication that Ahab is God. As I read it ( and the whole BOOK is so open to varying interpretations! ),
long, but not a spoiler: (view spoiler)
Laurele wrote: "To me, Starbuck is very much like Hamlet here, though trying to prevent loss of life rather than to avenge it. I don't see either man as a coward: things just aren't all black and white...."
I can see a similarity between Hamlet and Starbuck [in this scene] in that they are both going round and round in their minds, "What shall I do?"
Yet, the differences between the two situations is, I think, of over-riding importance.
In Hamlet's situation, there has indeed been a death, and Hamlet believes it to have been murder. And there would be justification for punishing a murderer. I don't see Hamlet as a coward. Had his father been murdered by some passing stranger, Hamlet would have had no problem punishing that man. It's as you say, the complications, nothing being black or white, all being varying shades of grays and whites as is the White Whale himself. (His mother is married to the man Hamlet believes to have murdered his father....How would she react should Hamlet kill her husband? and how important is Hamlet's mother to Hamlet??)
But we have to remember, I think, that in Starbuck's situation, there hasn't been any murder. You can't kill people because you THINK that they are going to kill someone. (Except, like in movies like that Tom Cruise movie, Minority Report...mmm even in that movie, the enforcers could not KILL the people that were about to commit crimes...the enforcers could only arrest people that had been deemed "about to commit a crime")
Starbuck had the option of "arresting" Ahab, keeping him in chains until the ship returned to Nantucket, and very probably Starbuck could have proved his case in Nantucket---that Ahab was unbalanced and no longer fit for command.
But Starbuck wasn't strong enough to do it. "I could not endure the sight; could not possibly fly his howlings; all comfort, sleep itself, inestimable reason would leave me on the long intolerable voyage" (529).
Starbuck knows himself not strong enough to lock Ahab up. That's why he keeps trying to find a way to rationalize murdering Ahab.
Starbuck goes back up to the deck a stronger man than when he went down. He probably knows he's going to have to live with tragedy. But his new found faith and deeper connection to his God have strengthened him. Starbuck has determined that he will live by the rules of his life (which includes Thou shalt not kill) and Starbuck will be able to live with what happens...
Anyway, that's my take.
I can see a similarity between Hamlet and Starbuck [in this scene] in that they are both going round and round in their minds, "What shall I do?"
Yet, the differences between the two situations is, I think, of over-riding importance.
In Hamlet's situation, there has indeed been a death, and Hamlet believes it to have been murder. And there would be justification for punishing a murderer. I don't see Hamlet as a coward. Had his father been murdered by some passing stranger, Hamlet would have had no problem punishing that man. It's as you say, the complications, nothing being black or white, all being varying shades of grays and whites as is the White Whale himself. (His mother is married to the man Hamlet believes to have murdered his father....How would she react should Hamlet kill her husband? and how important is Hamlet's mother to Hamlet??)
But we have to remember, I think, that in Starbuck's situation, there hasn't been any murder. You can't kill people because you THINK that they are going to kill someone. (Except, like in movies like that Tom Cruise movie, Minority Report...mmm even in that movie, the enforcers could not KILL the people that were about to commit crimes...the enforcers could only arrest people that had been deemed "about to commit a crime")
Starbuck had the option of "arresting" Ahab, keeping him in chains until the ship returned to Nantucket, and very probably Starbuck could have proved his case in Nantucket---that Ahab was unbalanced and no longer fit for command.
But Starbuck wasn't strong enough to do it. "I could not endure the sight; could not possibly fly his howlings; all comfort, sleep itself, inestimable reason would leave me on the long intolerable voyage" (529).
Starbuck knows himself not strong enough to lock Ahab up. That's why he keeps trying to find a way to rationalize murdering Ahab.
Starbuck goes back up to the deck a stronger man than when he went down. He probably knows he's going to have to live with tragedy. But his new found faith and deeper connection to his God have strengthened him. Starbuck has determined that he will live by the rules of his life (which includes Thou shalt not kill) and Starbuck will be able to live with what happens...
Anyway, that's my take.
Audrey wrote: "I'm wondering if anyone else felt echoes of Macbeth in these chapters. The Musket strongly reminded me of Macbeth's soliloquy right before he kills Duncan, and Fedallah's prophecies reminded me of..."
Very nice. the sense of security the prophecies seem to promise.
Very nice. the sense of security the prophecies seem to promise.
Adelle wrote: "S. Rosemary wrote: "Adelle wrote: "I thought Ahab was saying that his own, very strong conscience is the keel of the ship...and the ship is most obviously being directed by Ahab..."
That's how I..."
Somewhat at sea again on this. Because in Chapter 28, it very much seems as though whaling ships DO have keels. So I'm thinking that perhaps a whaling ship (which is what Ahab is steering with his conscience (or obsession) have keels...because Chapter 28 says they do,
but that whaling "boats" might refer to the boats that the crews take out when actively hunting the whales and that the smaller whaling boats do NOT have keels.
That's how I..."
Somewhat at sea again on this. Because in Chapter 28, it very much seems as though whaling ships DO have keels. So I'm thinking that perhaps a whaling ship (which is what Ahab is steering with his conscience (or obsession) have keels...because Chapter 28 says they do,
but that whaling "boats" might refer to the boats that the crews take out when actively hunting the whales and that the smaller whaling boats do NOT have keels.
Thomas wrote: Starbuck offers plenty of justification for killing Ahab..."
But, repectfully, no, he doesn't. He offers plenty of rationizations...none of which would hold up in a court of law. Ahab at this point is well on his way to filling the Pequod's hold with valuable oil. Should Starbuck shoot him, Starbuck would have to be thrown into chains and tried for murder. Starbuck could then say all those things he was saying to himself...none of that would justify Starbuck's action of murdering Ahab....because Ahab hasn't actually killed anybody...he hasn't even said that he's going to kill anybody...he's just out there hunting whales...but looking in particular for Moby Dick...no crime there...certainly nothing that would justify killing him in his sleep.
But, repectfully, no, he doesn't. He offers plenty of rationizations...none of which would hold up in a court of law. Ahab at this point is well on his way to filling the Pequod's hold with valuable oil. Should Starbuck shoot him, Starbuck would have to be thrown into chains and tried for murder. Starbuck could then say all those things he was saying to himself...none of that would justify Starbuck's action of murdering Ahab....because Ahab hasn't actually killed anybody...he hasn't even said that he's going to kill anybody...he's just out there hunting whales...but looking in particular for Moby Dick...no crime there...certainly nothing that would justify killing him in his sleep.
Adelle wrote: "Thomas wrote: Starbuck offers plenty of justification for killing Ahab..."But, repectfully, no, he doesn't. He offers plenty of rationizations...none of which would hold up in a court of law...."
Very, very little would hold up in a court of law to justify not only mutiny but murder.
But perhaps the more interesting question is, leaving the law aside, did he have a moral obligation to kill Ahab if he felt Ahab was excessively endangering the crew in his mad pursuit of Moby Dick? Can "anticipatory murder to avoid potential disaster" be justified? Apparently, in the end, he didn't think so in this case. But it's an interesting moral/ethical question in its own right.
Adelle wrote: "And Starbuck has the answer to what he must do. He realizes that he can't shoot Ahab. That would be murder. Starbuck WOULD lose his soul. He puts the gun away. He leaves that below the decks/unconscious area. He goes back up on deck..."Great analysis, Adelle. I also think Starbuck as a rules-follower is really insightful, one of the keys to the book, I think. In following the "law", Starbuck is bound to the rule of Ahab as captain. In that sense, Ahab is God, or at least the god of his ship, and Starbuck is powerless against him. (There are early indications of Ahab's role as "god" as well -- the mark of the lightning on his face, his moniker "Old Thunder", his handling of the lightning rods during the storm, etc.)
Ahab, on the other hand, doesn't need rules to find his way in the world; he smashes his quadrant, defying the heavens as a way of direction. He will see his way by his own lights. The morning after the storm, when the ship's compass has been demagnetized, the ship is heading one way and the compass points the other:
"Thou liest!" smiting him with his clenched fist. "Heading East at this hour in the morning, and the sun astern?"
Upon this every soul was confounded; for the phenomenon just then observed by Ahab had unaccountably escaped every one else.
Ahab might be crazy, but he has an innate sense of direction. He doesn't have rules at all; rules seem to infuriate him. What Ahab reveres is defiance, like Milton's Satan:
"Oh! thou clear spirit of clear fire, whom on these seas I as Persian once did worship, till in the sacramental act so burned by thee, that to this hour I bear the scar; I now know thee, thou clear spirit, and I now know that thy right worship is defiance. To neither love nor reverence wilt thou be kind; and e'en for hate thou canst but kill; and all are killed. No fearless fool now fronts thee. I own thy speechless, placeless power; but to the last gasp of my earthquake life will dispute its unconditional, unintegral mastery in me. In the midst of the personified impersonal, a personality stands here. Though but a point at best; whencesoe'er I came; wheresoe'er I go; yet while I earthly live, the queenly personality lives in me, and feels her royal rights. But war is pain, and hate is woe. Come in thy lowest form of love, and I will kneel and kiss thee; but at thy highest, come as mere supernal power; and though thou launchest navies of full-freighted worlds, there's that in here that still remains indifferent. Oh, thou clear spirit, of thy fire thou madest me, and like a true child of fire, I breathe it back to thee. "The Candles."
Adelle wrote: "Thomas wrote: Starbuck offers plenty of justification for killing Ahab..."But, repectfully, no, he doesn't. He offers plenty of rationizations...none of which would hold up in a court of law...."
Assuming there is a categorical imperative against murder in every circumstance, self-preservation not excepted, Starbuck still did not have to murder Ahab to incapacitate him. He knew this:
Make him a prisoner to be taken home? What! hope to wrest this old man's living power from his own living hands? Only a fool would try it. Say he were pinioned even; knotted all over with ropes and hawsers; chained down to ring-bolts on this cabin floor; he would be more hideous than a caged tiger, then. I could not endure the sight; could not possibly fly his howlings; all comfort, sleep itself, inestimable reason would leave me on the long intolerable voyage.
Starbuck's fear plays as much a role as any moral quandary he may be experiencing. It isn't that Starbuck is a coward -- we know from everything preceding that this isn't so -- but Melville can't make it any more clear that Ahab's power is spiritual as well as legal.
Everyman wrote: "Adelle wrote: "Thomas wrote: Starbuck offers plenty of justification for killing Ahab..."
But, repectfully, no, he doesn't. He offers plenty of rationizations...none of which would hold up in a ...
Eman: But perhaps the more interesting question is, leaving the law aside, did he have a moral obligation to kill Ahab if he felt Ahab was excessively endangering the crew in his mad pursuit of Moby Dick? Can "anticipatory murder to avoid potential disaster" be justified? Apparently, in the end, he didn't think so in this case. But it's an interesting moral/ethical question in its own right.
"
Interestingly enough, I was thinking along these lines this morning while Iwas grocery shopping. (LOL, like Rosemary...thinking MD all the time!)
Regarding the more surface level point: did Starbuck have a moral obligation to kill Ahab if he felt Ahab was excessively endangering the crew in his mad pursuit of Moby Dick?.
Short answer: No. Long answer, see below.
Can "anticipatory murder to avoid potential disaster" be justified?
Almost always "no" --- because it's "potential" disaster. Now perhaps I could change that "no" to a "yes" in Starbuck's case, if I knew beyond a doubt that Starbuck had a perfect track record of being able to accurately fortell the future.
{In the argument for trying to blow up Hitler, well, yes, I can go with the argument for trying to kill him. But then Hitler already had a record of murdering people...and it was clear---not just a hunch, or an intuition--- that his every intention was to kill more.}(But, as far as I can see, Starbuck has nothing that proves, let alone indicates (anticipates) that Ahab is going to kill anyone...nothing firm that would give any indication than ANY of the crew would die...well, not more than usually die on a whaling ship.
But, repectfully, no, he doesn't. He offers plenty of rationizations...none of which would hold up in a ...
Eman: But perhaps the more interesting question is, leaving the law aside, did he have a moral obligation to kill Ahab if he felt Ahab was excessively endangering the crew in his mad pursuit of Moby Dick? Can "anticipatory murder to avoid potential disaster" be justified? Apparently, in the end, he didn't think so in this case. But it's an interesting moral/ethical question in its own right.
"
Interestingly enough, I was thinking along these lines this morning while Iwas grocery shopping. (LOL, like Rosemary...thinking MD all the time!)
Regarding the more surface level point: did Starbuck have a moral obligation to kill Ahab if he felt Ahab was excessively endangering the crew in his mad pursuit of Moby Dick?.
Short answer: No. Long answer, see below.
Can "anticipatory murder to avoid potential disaster" be justified?
Almost always "no" --- because it's "potential" disaster. Now perhaps I could change that "no" to a "yes" in Starbuck's case, if I knew beyond a doubt that Starbuck had a perfect track record of being able to accurately fortell the future.
{In the argument for trying to blow up Hitler, well, yes, I can go with the argument for trying to kill him. But then Hitler already had a record of murdering people...and it was clear---not just a hunch, or an intuition--- that his every intention was to kill more.}(But, as far as I can see, Starbuck has nothing that proves, let alone indicates (anticipates) that Ahab is going to kill anyone...nothing firm that would give any indication than ANY of the crew would die...well, not more than usually die on a whaling ship.
No. Longer answer to did Starbuck have a moral obligation to kill Ahab if he felt Ahab was excessively endangering the crew in his mad pursuit of Moby Dick?.
I thought that Starbuck decided to come down on the side of rules, laws, civilization.
I thought that Starbuck sadly recognized that IF... thinking that through killing Ahab, that lives would be saved...and believing that......
nonetheless...IF he went ahead and killed Ahab, he {Starbuck} would be exactly the same as Ahab.
Disregarding that society held to be of importance {What Ahab has done; what Starbuck would be doing}, and deciding totally on his own what HE himself believed to be the overriding good {What Ahab is doing; what Starbuck would be doing} and disregarding the value of any lives that don't further his own goal {What Ahab is doing; what Starbuck would be doing}
Because from one point of view, Ahab believes himself to be fighting "evil." Sorry, not looking it up. But Ahab believed Moby Dick to be "evil incarnate."
As a decent person, what should one do with evil? Why, fight against evil. But Ahab knows that he can't convince society that Moby Dick is evil, he can't convince society that it is in their interests to go after Moby Dick, evil incarnate, and kill him. But here's Ahab, still believing Moby Dick evil incarnate....how many others will Moby Dick maim or kill? Ahab's all Little Red Hen. I'll do it myself, and if lives are lost in the process, so be it! because I'll be saving more lives than will be lost...and it's the "right thing" to do!
Isn't that about the same dilemma that Starbuck faces? Starbuck believes that killing Ahab will save lives. He can't convince the other crew members. Well, thinks Starbuck, I can just kill him myself. After all, I'll be saving lives. (maybe). But wait...........Ahab has disregarded the rules of society....and that's what Starbuck would be doing (!!! no trial for Ahab??? Not even Ahab getting to speak in his own defense????). And can Starbuck really believe that it would be ok to kill one man unlawfully, in order to (maybe) save thirty?
A lower level argument, would Starbuck believe it to be OK to steal a small fortune from someone...? and try to justify the action by using that stolen money to help lots of people?
Aren't we kinda looking at the utilitarian argument here?
If you're in a jungle, and some man shown to you, let's for arguments sake he's sleeping, and you're told, "If you shoot THIS ONE MAN, then we'll let these 30 other captives go free. And if you don't shoot THIS ONE sleeping MAN, then we'll kill these 30 other people."
Maybe you ask, has HE killed anyone? And you're told, no, he's never killed anyone. He's been an upstanding citizen for 50 or 60 years. But maybe through his actions some people might get die in the future. Maybe.
Do you then decide that it's right for you to shoot that one man???
I thought that Starbuck decided to come down on the side of rules, laws, civilization.
I thought that Starbuck sadly recognized that IF... thinking that through killing Ahab, that lives would be saved...and believing that......
nonetheless...IF he went ahead and killed Ahab, he {Starbuck} would be exactly the same as Ahab.
Disregarding that society held to be of importance {What Ahab has done; what Starbuck would be doing}, and deciding totally on his own what HE himself believed to be the overriding good {What Ahab is doing; what Starbuck would be doing} and disregarding the value of any lives that don't further his own goal {What Ahab is doing; what Starbuck would be doing}
Because from one point of view, Ahab believes himself to be fighting "evil." Sorry, not looking it up. But Ahab believed Moby Dick to be "evil incarnate."
As a decent person, what should one do with evil? Why, fight against evil. But Ahab knows that he can't convince society that Moby Dick is evil, he can't convince society that it is in their interests to go after Moby Dick, evil incarnate, and kill him. But here's Ahab, still believing Moby Dick evil incarnate....how many others will Moby Dick maim or kill? Ahab's all Little Red Hen. I'll do it myself, and if lives are lost in the process, so be it! because I'll be saving more lives than will be lost...and it's the "right thing" to do!
Isn't that about the same dilemma that Starbuck faces? Starbuck believes that killing Ahab will save lives. He can't convince the other crew members. Well, thinks Starbuck, I can just kill him myself. After all, I'll be saving lives. (maybe). But wait...........Ahab has disregarded the rules of society....and that's what Starbuck would be doing (!!! no trial for Ahab??? Not even Ahab getting to speak in his own defense????). And can Starbuck really believe that it would be ok to kill one man unlawfully, in order to (maybe) save thirty?
A lower level argument, would Starbuck believe it to be OK to steal a small fortune from someone...? and try to justify the action by using that stolen money to help lots of people?
Aren't we kinda looking at the utilitarian argument here?
If you're in a jungle, and some man shown to you, let's for arguments sake he's sleeping, and you're told, "If you shoot THIS ONE MAN, then we'll let these 30 other captives go free. And if you don't shoot THIS ONE sleeping MAN, then we'll kill these 30 other people."
Maybe you ask, has HE killed anyone? And you're told, no, he's never killed anyone. He's been an upstanding citizen for 50 or 60 years. But maybe through his actions some people might get die in the future. Maybe.
Do you then decide that it's right for you to shoot that one man???
Everyman wrote: "Adelle wrote: "Thomas wrote: Starbuck offers plenty of justification for killing Ahab..."
But, repectfully, no, he doesn't. He offers plenty of rationizations...none of which would hold up in a mutiny..."
So you don't think Starbuck could even be defended from a charge of mutiny if he locked Ahab up? Interesting.
But, repectfully, no, he doesn't. He offers plenty of rationizations...none of which would hold up in a mutiny..."
So you don't think Starbuck could even be defended from a charge of mutiny if he locked Ahab up? Interesting.
Thomas wrote: "Adelle wrote: "And Starbuck has the answer to what he must do. He realizes that he can't shoot Ahab. That would be murder. Starbuck WOULD lose his soul. He puts the gun away. He leaves that below t..."
Very nice details supporting Ahab being almost god-like onboard that ship...touched by God... all powerful... he even bends Starbuck to his will, though Starbuck labels his actions blasphemous.
Awesome quote, btw: "Thou liest!" smiting him with his clenched fist. "Heading East at this hour in the morning, and the sun astern?"
And how much more above and beyond regular men is Ahab NOW??? Ahab knows the truth when the machines are lying!!! Ahab masters the fire on the masts!!!
Very nice details supporting Ahab being almost god-like onboard that ship...touched by God... all powerful... he even bends Starbuck to his will, though Starbuck labels his actions blasphemous.
Awesome quote, btw: "Thou liest!" smiting him with his clenched fist. "Heading East at this hour in the morning, and the sun astern?"
And how much more above and beyond regular men is Ahab NOW??? Ahab knows the truth when the machines are lying!!! Ahab masters the fire on the masts!!!
Thomas wrote: "Ahab might be crazy, but he has an innate sense of direction. He doesn't have rules at all; rules seem to infuriate him. What Ahab reveres is defiance, like Milton's Satan:"Coincidentally, I was thinking of Milton's Satan also as I read this last section. I can't see Ahab as God -- he's too focused on revenge against MD and on hate, whereas God should be focused on love and redemption. But Satan was next to God, but much more Ahabian in his outlook, wasn't he?
Adelle wrote: "ESo you don't think Starbuck could even be defended from a charge of mutiny if he locked Ahab up? Interesting. "What has he actually done that would deserve mutiny? Mutiny aboard ship was as high a crime as treason against the king. The captain of king would have to have done something terrible to justify mutiny or treason. What has Ahab done to this point that would justify the ultimate violence against the very fabric of law and justice?
Everyman wrote: "Adelle wrote: "ESo you don't think Starbuck could even be defended from a charge of mutiny if he locked Ahab up? Interesting. "
What has he actually done that would deserve mutiny? Mutiny aboard ..."
Well, i don't have much...i guess there's: Ahab has been acting strangely, waking up from bad dreams... Ok, not enough there.
and there's: the leakage of the oil...but Ahab comes back up on deck and deals properly with that. Ok, nothing there either.
Well, if there's not enough to support a mutiny, then is it likely that there's enough to support a murder?
What has he actually done that would deserve mutiny? Mutiny aboard ..."
Well, i don't have much...i guess there's: Ahab has been acting strangely, waking up from bad dreams... Ok, not enough there.
and there's: the leakage of the oil...but Ahab comes back up on deck and deals properly with that. Ok, nothing there either.
Well, if there's not enough to support a mutiny, then is it likely that there's enough to support a murder?
Adelle: "But here's Ahab, still believing Moby Dick evil incarnate....how many others will Moby Dick maim or kill? Ahab's all Little Red Hen. I'll do it myself, and if lives are lost in the process, so be it! because I'll be saving more lives than will be lost...and it's the "right thing" to do!"I have great difficulty believing that Ahab is being in any way altruistic in his pursuit of Moby Dick. When has he ever showed himself concerned for anything beyond his own personal vengeance?
Ahab has had PLENTY of omens to argue against the point of view that Moby Dick is evil incarnate and should be killed. Think about the storm, the fair wind that took the crew in the exact opposite direction from Moby Dick, and the reversed compasses that, if followed, would also have taken them away from Moby Dick. That's as clear as heavenly messages get. In my opinion, if Ahab doesn't pay attention to them, it's because he either doesn't want to see it or doesn't care.
It's these same omens that make Starbuck think Ahab is risking the ship's crew. The ones I mentioned above are by no means the first anti-Moby Dick omens in the book, though they are certainly the clearest. With so many messages, is it really to be wondered at that Starbuck thinks the ship might be doomed? You can argue that taking omens that literally is silly, but I don't think it's fair to call it rationalization. I think Starbuck does literally believe that Heaven is against their quest, and that, if they don't turn around, they are doomed. After all, he comes from a belief system where God is capable of communicating with people via natural phenomena, and the natural phenomena have been ominous from the beginning.
Ahab refers to the blacksmith as Prometheus, somewhat in jest, but I wonder if his ideal man is not meant in earnest:Hold; while Prometheus is about it, I'll order a complete man after a desirable pattern. Imprimis, fifty feet high in his socks; then, chest modelled after the Thames Tunnel; then, legs with roots to 'em, to stay in one place; then, arms three feet through the wrist; no heart at all, brass forehead, and about a quarter of an acre of fine brains; and let me see—shall I order eyes to see outwards? No, but put a sky-light on top of his head to illuminate inwards. (Ch. 108, Ahab and the Carpenter)
Ahab's obsession with the whale seems to be one of revenge, a passionate hatred of Moby Dick that will only be satisfied when the whale is destroyed. But here his "ideal" man is one with no heart at all.
This chapter is puzzling, but interesting in that Ahab goes from the fashioning of a new leg to the idea of Creation as a whole.
Is't a riddle?
I should humbly call it a poser, sir.
Audrey wrote: I have great difficulty believing that Ahab is being in any way altruistic in his pursuit of Moby Dick. ..."
Audrey, you made me to laugh! I just had to laugh when I read that. Ok, yes, yes, yes, I too have great difficulty in believing that Ahab is being in any way altruistic in his pursuit of Moby Dick!
My bad, I suppose I got carried away looking for symmetry. Sorry.
I do think the basic point still holds. Will respond later today.
Audrey, you made me to laugh! I just had to laugh when I read that. Ok, yes, yes, yes, I too have great difficulty in believing that Ahab is being in any way altruistic in his pursuit of Moby Dick!
My bad, I suppose I got carried away looking for symmetry. Sorry.
I do think the basic point still holds. Will respond later today.
I, too found Ahab's ideal man intriguing. Not only does he have no heart, he can't see anything outside himself. He can only look inward. With no heart and no outward vision, it seems to me there's no room for love or compassion.I think you can take the model man at least two ways, and I can't quite decide which way I take him. On the one hand, the model man possesses qualities Ahab very much prizes in himself--his brains and his introspection. As for the matter of the heart, it isn't necessary to have one in a vengeance quest, and not having one probably makes things a great deal easier. So, the ideal man could be the person Ahab is striving to be. On the other hand, Ahab's quest for Moby Dick isn't (as far as I can tell) based on reason. It's an emotional quest. So, it could be that, by leaving out the heart, Ahab is trying to leave out the part of that's caused him the most pain.
Going back in the discussion a little, I think Ahab's destruction of the quadrant is symbolic of his putting his faith in human reason above the divine. I read this as being a sort of miniature skirmish between Ahab and nature.I had never heard of a quadrant before Ahab destroyed his, so do tell me if I'm misunderstanding its use. However, I think it's telling that Ahab seems to use it in conjunction with the sun--a classic symbol of nature and God. Ahab asserts his independence of both by smashing his quadrant and deciding to go only by compasses and the ship's log, products of human reason. Point for Ahab.
Nature gets the better of him in very short order, by making his compasses show the wrong direction. Ahab is again forced to use the sun to find his orientation. Point for nature.
But Ahab doesn't stick to this. He makes his own compass. And he makes a point of doing it in a very public way, so that the crew is in awe of his seemingly supernatural powers. Point for Ahab.
Audrey wrote: "Ahab has had PLENTY of omens to argue against the point of view that Moby Dick is evil incarnate and should be killed. Think about the storm, the fair wind that took the crew in the exact opposite direction from Moby Dick, and the reversed compasses that, if followed, would also have taken them away from Moby Dick. That's as clear as heavenly messages get. In my opinion, if Ahab doesn't pay attention to them, it's because he either doesn't want to see it or doesn't care.
..."
Well, that's the way of omens and portents. They can so easily be interpretted either way.
It could just as easily be Starbuck that is reading the portents wrong. Unlike some ships the Pequod had met, Ahab’s ship has killed whales and loaded oil. Maybe the ship is blessed with Ahab. There’s been only the one death and Pip’s misfortune. Not as bad as many other ships. An observer might interpret Ahab as mastering the St Elmo’s fire. A sign from heaven that Ahab will see them thru safely?
{BTW, I do think Starbuck is right in this case. But that offers no justification for murdering his captain. Because he could just as easily be wrong. There are no facts that warrant death for Ahab.}
Sorry I got carried away in post 33. Ahab has shown compassion a couple of times in the book, but, no, I can’t say that I see the Ahab of this voyage as altruistic.
Still, I hold that a good part of why Starbuck didn’t shoot Ahab is that Starbuck is recommitting himself to civilization and laws. If he starts administrating his own justice he’s about the same as Ahab. Otherwise, why couldn’t just anybody start deciding that they know what the truth is and start killing the people they “just know” should be killed.
It’s human nature to be upset, or angry, etc. when one feels oneself treated unfairly or hurt. Stubb was upset at how Ahab had spoken to him---Stubb managed to deal with his feelings in a dream; Steelkilt was upset and then angry at how Mr. Radney spoke to him—the situation escalated; Starbuck was “outraged” at Ahab—Starbuck pointed the musket towards where Ahab’s head would be and most seriously contemplated murdering him…and well might have had not Ahab spoken in his sleep; and Ahab felt vindictive when he lost his leg…but then Ahab went mad, suffering that raging fever which deranged his thinking…and came to believe Moby Dick was evil and had to be killed.
Yes, there were plenty of omens and rumors and portents and superstitions---all non-factual, all open to interpretation. The book has numerous conflicting messages. Since there are no facts which clearly mark omens as true or false, then what’s germane to Ahab’s decision is what Ahab believes. And it seems to me that Ahab believes Moby Dick to be evil.
“The White Whale swam before him as the monomaniac incarnation of all those malicious agencies which some deep men feel eating in them” (199),
“That intangible malignity what has been from the beginning; to whose dominion even the modern Christians ascribed one-half of the world; which the ancient Ophites of the east reverenced in their statue devil” (199),
“all evil, to crazy Ahab, were visibly personified, and made practically assailable in Moby Dick” (200).
And he’s deranged, even when he finally seemed normal again, “even then, Ahab, in his hidden self, raved on. Human madness is oftentimes a cunning a most feline thing” (200).
I do agree with you though, that Ahab is NOT considering any indications that he might be in the wrong. Maybe that's why he repeatedly told Starbuck, "on deck"... Maybe it's as you say, Ahab did NOT want to hear anything that might make him reflect on his already chosen path.
..."
Well, that's the way of omens and portents. They can so easily be interpretted either way.
It could just as easily be Starbuck that is reading the portents wrong. Unlike some ships the Pequod had met, Ahab’s ship has killed whales and loaded oil. Maybe the ship is blessed with Ahab. There’s been only the one death and Pip’s misfortune. Not as bad as many other ships. An observer might interpret Ahab as mastering the St Elmo’s fire. A sign from heaven that Ahab will see them thru safely?
{BTW, I do think Starbuck is right in this case. But that offers no justification for murdering his captain. Because he could just as easily be wrong. There are no facts that warrant death for Ahab.}
Sorry I got carried away in post 33. Ahab has shown compassion a couple of times in the book, but, no, I can’t say that I see the Ahab of this voyage as altruistic.
Still, I hold that a good part of why Starbuck didn’t shoot Ahab is that Starbuck is recommitting himself to civilization and laws. If he starts administrating his own justice he’s about the same as Ahab. Otherwise, why couldn’t just anybody start deciding that they know what the truth is and start killing the people they “just know” should be killed.
It’s human nature to be upset, or angry, etc. when one feels oneself treated unfairly or hurt. Stubb was upset at how Ahab had spoken to him---Stubb managed to deal with his feelings in a dream; Steelkilt was upset and then angry at how Mr. Radney spoke to him—the situation escalated; Starbuck was “outraged” at Ahab—Starbuck pointed the musket towards where Ahab’s head would be and most seriously contemplated murdering him…and well might have had not Ahab spoken in his sleep; and Ahab felt vindictive when he lost his leg…but then Ahab went mad, suffering that raging fever which deranged his thinking…and came to believe Moby Dick was evil and had to be killed.
Yes, there were plenty of omens and rumors and portents and superstitions---all non-factual, all open to interpretation. The book has numerous conflicting messages. Since there are no facts which clearly mark omens as true or false, then what’s germane to Ahab’s decision is what Ahab believes. And it seems to me that Ahab believes Moby Dick to be evil.
“The White Whale swam before him as the monomaniac incarnation of all those malicious agencies which some deep men feel eating in them” (199),
“That intangible malignity what has been from the beginning; to whose dominion even the modern Christians ascribed one-half of the world; which the ancient Ophites of the east reverenced in their statue devil” (199),
“all evil, to crazy Ahab, were visibly personified, and made practically assailable in Moby Dick” (200).
And he’s deranged, even when he finally seemed normal again, “even then, Ahab, in his hidden self, raved on. Human madness is oftentimes a cunning a most feline thing” (200).
I do agree with you though, that Ahab is NOT considering any indications that he might be in the wrong. Maybe that's why he repeatedly told Starbuck, "on deck"... Maybe it's as you say, Ahab did NOT want to hear anything that might make him reflect on his already chosen path.
I ran across this quote which surprised me... a knock against Starbuck. Apparently I hadn’t noticed it on first reading, “Here then was the …ungodly old man…morally enfeebled also, by the incompetence of mere unaided virtue or right-mindedness in Starbuck…” (202).
Audrey wrote: "On the other hand, Ahab's quest for Moby Dick isn't (as far as I can tell) based on reason. It's an emotional quest. So, it could be that, by leaving out the heart, Ahab is trying to leave out the part of that's caused him the most pain...."
I was thinking along those lines too. "Ahab trying to leave out the part that's caused him the most pain"
I was thinking along those lines too. "Ahab trying to leave out the part that's caused him the most pain"
Are we going to move on to the finale now, or are we waiting for everyone to catch up?
Thomas wrote: "Are we going to move on to the finale now, or are we waiting for everyone to catch up?"
Thomas, thank you for giving voice. I was wondering, too.
Thomas, thank you for giving voice. I was wondering, too.
Thomas wrote: "Are we going to move on to the finale now, or are we waiting for everyone to catch up?"My bad.
Everyman wrote: "Thomas wrote: "Are we going to move on to the finale now, or are we waiting for everyone to catch up?"My bad."
No worries.
I found Chapter 109 fascinating in thoroughly confusing me as to the relative importance Ahab gives to seeking Moby Dick and fulfilling his commercial task of filling his ship with oil.
I'm hoping we can get a discussion which will help me figure out what the chapter on Queequeg's coffin is really all about. Is there more there than meets the eye, and if so what?
The blacksmith now gets equal time with the carpenter. Since we drew a potential relationship between the carpenter and Jesus, what are we going to do with the blacksmith? Does he represent the fires of hell? What are we going to say about Ishmael's idea that men seek a life at sea as a substitute for suicide? He, of course, has gone to see to cure depression; maybe there's something there? (OTOH, maybe some men go to sea to escape a shrewish wife???)
Then we have the interesting chapters on the Pacific Ocean, Pacific of course meaning peaceful, which it may have been when Westerners first saw it, but as we well know it can be anything but.
Lots more fascinating things to ponder. It seems to me that, having pretty much exhausted the topic of the whale itself, Melville is turning to more mysterious matters. What does this sand Ahab carries mean? What can we make of the strange prophecies of Fedallah? What of Ahab's destruction of the quadrant -- is this akin to the ruler that lashed the sea to punish it? Or is it more pointing out how much humans rely on the instruments and instrumentalities they have created to help them make life decisions? What fascination in the totally different views Ahab and Starbuck have toward the fire on the masts and harpoons? During the storm, does Ahab show himself a master mariner or a reckless fool willing to sacrifice the lives of all the crew for his egomania? And there is such a ton of potential symbolism in turning the coffin into a life buoy that I can't even deal with it here.
But ah -- at last we get a reliable report of Moby Dick nearby. And reflecting back to Stubb and Pip, we see that Ahab, too, can be more concerned with the pursuit of a whale (in his case the whale) than with the life of a human.
I sense two significant developments in these chapter. First, as I noted, Melville seems to have completed his detailed discussion of all aspects of the whale and have turned his attention to the voyage and to developments on Peaquod, which now moves more front and center in the book. Second, we are certainly getting a major dose of Ahab during these chapters -- but what are we to make of him?
My eyes are being troublesome -- please forgive any errors in grammar or spelling that slipped by them.