The History Book Club discussion
AMERICAN DEMOCRACY - GOVERNMENT
>
17. LEGACY OF ASHES ~ CHAPTERS 49 - 50 (486- 516) (04/25/11 - 05/01/11) ~ No spoilers, please
date
newest »
newest »
I'm not sure, it does sound kind of sincere. I'm a little worried about the "single-handedly" though, because I don't think that it is true. Obama might have decided out of options to do a surgical strike, but he is not saying use helicopters, take 35 men, etc.
Mod
We can only hypothesize what he said and what he didn't.
One thing we did not raise is that evidently the information leading to OBL's raid came from a detainee in a secret prison aided by the CIA.This complicates the detainee issue even more. This might keep the prison system up and going. I'd think it is going to be a much harder case to close some of them if you have this success "on the books."
Mod
Mod
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/...
This debate will go on for awhile. It just isn't clear that they would have gotten this information without 'enhanced techniques' or how much of it came from those subjected. It seems that part of the argument for using them is that it sends the signal to detainees that they can and will use them on anyone - they use it as an implied threat just as much as the 'techniques' themselves. So now that maybe it worked is the rationale for not letting go of it, even if it is torture. Where do we draw the line? What a mess.
Mod
Leon Panetta in an interview the other day suggested that the info came from multiple sources including from some on who 'enhanced techniques' were used - he would not say waterboarding outright so who knows what that means. But he also suggested they don't know they would have gotten the same information without it. That seems to me will fuel the argument for it. I don't agree that torture should be used, and I fear that because of what it yielded in this case it will have even more supporters.
Alisa wrote: "Leon Panetta in an interview the other day suggested that the info came from multiple sources including from some on who 'enhanced techniques' were used - he would not say waterboarding outright so..."I agree, Alisa, it will add to the support of all this. Didn't Obama pull the CIA back on this type of torture, but did keep the CIA immunity intact?
Yes, which he was criticized for, and in hindsight maybe he was led to believe they were getting good information from it.
Mod
Enhanced techniques? Like ripping their fingernails off??? or is that just a code word for waterboarding?; what exactly does that mean. But I agree with you; he is trying to get the CIA which he heads now off of the radar screen. Obama is taking the heat for this and frankly all of the US organizations should be following our laws; otherwise where does it stop.
I guess anyone will get good information if they threaten to kill these folks' families and bulldoze their families houses like the Israelis have done; but I do not agree with any of that either. I could be naive.
I guess now that the detainees after the killing of Bin Laden will believe us - and in a way that is sad too. I was all for capturing Bin Laden and whatever means the Navy Seals had to use (where the Navy Seals' lives were protected) was fine with me. I also feel that the world is a better and safer place without Bin Laden stirring the pot.
Do not get me wrong on this but I have always wanted to believe that we operated on higher ground. And I realize that getting Bin Laden took other measures.
Yeah, I don't agree with the policy, either. I am a realist when it comes to foreign policy, but not in all instances: human rights & ethics do have a role in what we do to ourselves and to detainees.
That's why I put it in quotes, it is their code word for waterboarding and whatever other heinous acts they use that we don't want to know about.
Mod
Alisa wrote: "That's why I put it in quotes, it is their code word for waterboarding and whatever other heinous acts they use that we don't want to know about."legal verbiage, right?
Bryan wrote: "Alisa wrote: "That's why I put it in quotes, it is their code word for waterboarding and whatever other heinous acts they use that we don't want to know about."legal verbiage, right?"
or politico-speak. ha!
Mod
CIA came to Congress for more money on the OBL mission and had a safe house in Pakistan:http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/c...
Mod
message 71:
by
André, Honorary Contributor - EMERITUS - Music
(last edited May 06, 2011 05:58AM)
(new)
Mod
I don't think we will ever know what happens in a prison cell during interrogations - no matter what has been agreed upon.
There will always be cases where humans cross lines, either because they have been provoked or out of anger or just because they felt things had to be done to get certain desperately needed intel they would not have gotten otherwise.
Standard rules are fine and it's a good thing that most of our people keep to them.
As to what happened in and around the safe house...
A few words here and there by some "official" not allowed to comment - please! What kind of an agent is that? He should shut up. The press hot for being the first or only one or both at the same time, revealing whatever snippets of "news" they can find. It's easy to feed them.
This was an ultra secret Special Ops. It worked out. The guys did a good job - all of them, including the ones collecting evidence for months, delivering reliable intel on the man's location - AND shutting up!
Me, I don't want to hear more from some source saying he wouldn't be allowed to give any details but does so anyway. He should get fired and look for another job.
The mission is over. Case closed.
message 72:
by
André, Honorary Contributor - EMERITUS - Music
(last edited May 06, 2011 03:59AM)
(new)
Mod
Here, the following day we got a TV discussion (one of many - all of which I switched off minutes after they started) with some so-called specialists.
Well, what do I say... they didn't know @#$%
One guy, priding himself on SITTING in some kind of official committee, started talking about certain rights and what all had been done wrong and most importantly how the man should have been arrested etc.etc.
No matter what either one of us thinks about his point of view, while talking the man basically laid out for everyone willing to notice that he knew nothing about what had happened. No details, nothing.
Also, I doubt it the man could manage to run up a set of stairs in the dark, fire a gun with the prospect of hitting anything close to a target - and worse, he could not even imagine it.
So what's the point of listening to idiots like that blabber for hours based on faulty, incomplete and outdated intel...
It's dangerous to build your opinion on these so-called facts spit out by so-called officials not allowed to speak on or off the record because you're holding onto nothing but snippets. The truth is always more complex than that.
So true, Andre. With such a big mission, the "experts" come out and officials who really shouldn't comment either because they don't know what they are talking about, or the job has security clearance.It is frustrating when the "peacocks" come out to strut around. The SEALS didn't.
Anyway, I guess it shows how important this mission was.
Mod
Yes, Bryan, especially when they're dumb, blind and deaf...
All very interesting but it is interesting that the CIA gets closer and closer to the military - back to it's OSS roots?
And maybe linking it to the military, where the people are more accepting of assignments with less choice, will make it possible for the CIA to recruit from the military and get people who will be willing to stay on station for more that a few months -
I don't always approve of the military ways of life but they do build teams - maybe giving more stability to language training and keeping people - and we all know they take many minorities and maybe from there we can get more "native speakers" of languages.
I agree that the end point is more optimistic - but Weiner spent time there and who wants to believe all will be lost and we have to start from somewhere.
I also found the remarks in these last chapters about getting info from other countries work and waiting for defectors to be possibly very indicative of the means of many of the actual accomplishments - not all of course but many.
Overall I rate this book as a worthy read - I will give it four stars for Goodreads rating.
And thanks for all the other info provided by all of you.
Good points, Vince, about the military. I wonder how it will work all out. Glad you liked the book!
The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
The First World War (other topics)Legacy of Ashes: The History of the CIA (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
John Keegan (other topics)Tim Weiner (other topics)
Practice makes perfect mission, former SEALs say
Former Navy SEALs Eric Greitens and Michael Sheehan discuss the intense preparation work the Navy’s elite ‘SEAL Team Six’ carried out in advance of their dangerous mission to seize al-Qaida mastermind Osama bin Laden at his hidden compound in Pakistan.
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/2618489...