Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Discussion - Moby Dick
>
Week 3 - Through Chapter 66
Moby, by the way, was based on an actual whale, Mocha Dick (so named apparently because he frequented the area near Mocha Island) who was famous among Nantucket whalers. In 1939, 12 years before Melville published Moby Dick, and a year after Mocha Dick was finally killed, Jeremiah Reynolds published a magazine article titled "Mocha Dick: Or The White Whale of the Pacific." You can read about it here: http://www.melville.org/mobyname.htm
What does everyone make of the use of colour within this section of the novel, all this talk of 'white'. In addition, what do you make of the strangers who have just appeared on the ship? Do they symbolise anything?
The color white in literature traditionally means such things as innocence, purity, light or enlightenment, which reminds me what I was told when I began reading it, that MD actually consisted of three books - an adventure story, a psychological exploration of good vs. evil, and a documentary on cetology (sp?). What do you think, Everyman? That's a lot to pack into one novel.
Evalyn wrote: "That's a lot to pack into one novel."
Indeed, it is. And I think the psychological exploration may go beyond good and evil.
The adventure part also includes a classic quest motif, doesn't it?
Bill wrote: "In the case of the long chapter on the color white--all that text is for one purpose--to demonstrate how that one color can represent both the most benevolent and the most malevolent, of our experience. ."
This is true, but there is something more. The last paragraph of the chapter is incredibly rich, and possibly inscrutable, but I'm interested in what people make of it. I think we could arrange an entire seminar around just this one paragraph!
I think he concludes in the last paragraph that whiteness represents nothingness, or death. He starts by saying that it "shadows forth the heartless voids ... and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation." He goes on to suggest that white isn't a color at all, but the absence of color, a "colorless, all-color of atheism from which we shrink" -- but while it is absent it is also necessary. Light is the "concrete" of all colors; it is how we see. But the actual hues we see in nature are merely cosmetic deceits, not actually inherent in nature. They are superficial allurements covering "the charnel house within." The light itself "remains white or colorless", and is capable of blinding and annihilating sight.
I'm not sure how to unravel all that, but it seems to me that if we do as Ahab says, and "require a lower layer" what we eventually find in ourselves is a great white nothingness, which for Ahab is represented by the whale. Ahab's fight for existence revolves around striking at this nothingness. What is amazing is that Ishmael thinks the same way, but on a more abstract level. The light that for most of us reveals the world is for him nothing more than a cover-up for the blindingly powerful nothingness beneath. And that's a serious hypo.
#6, #7 Intriguing.
Hope to be back this evening to edit and respond here.
Hope to be back this evening to edit and respond here.
But first, miscellaneous thoughts on Chapter 41.
Now that I've made to thru chapter 46, I had to go back and check on chapter 41. It does so seem to be foreshadowing:
"No turbaned Turk, no hired Venetion or Malay could have smote him with more seeming malice" (199).
I'm ready to believe that at least one of those mystery men from the hold was a malicious Malayan.
I found the use of the word "smote" interesting. It's so Biblical. So often, I think, though I could be mistaken, that it usually corresponds with making a judgment. (God judged the people and smote them. Sometimes a misplaced judgment. Moses smote the rock even though God had told him not to...because he judge the rock was 'wrong' for not doing what he wanted. Sometimes anger.) But I really like the Biblical intonations that went with it.
"fell" I liked this word choice, too. "...ever since that almost fatal encounter, Ahab had cherished a wild vindictiveness against the whale, all the more fell for that in his frantic morbidness he at last came to indentify with him, not only all his bodily woes, but all his intellectual and spiritual exasperations" (199).
One of the definitions of fell is to cause to fall by striking or cutting down. Did the encounter with the whale, and the cutting off of Ahab's leg, result in the spiritual/moral/psychological fall of Ahab?
I'll probably never get back to this line of thought... In the chapters 20-40 set... much description of the deep unknown ... and I'm thinking Jung ... and now here in chapter 41, "[Ahab] deliriously transferring its idea ['the intangible malignity with has been from the beginning'] to the abhorred white whale, he pitted himself, all mutilated, against it" (199). So much discussion of transference in psychology.
..."their unconscious understandings" (203). Surely, when this is all done, I'll be able to find an Jungian interpretation of the book!
on page 200, "All that most maddens and torments...all truth with malice in it..." Isn't that so true? That IS the worst kind of truth...the most maddening, the MOST tormenting kind. Great truth there.
Oh, I found of note the sentence, "...and for long months of days and weeks, Ahab and anguish lay stretched out together [isn't that wonderfully worded?] ....; then it was, that his torn body and gashed soul bled into one another; and so interfusing, made him mad" (200).
This made me go back into the earlier part of the book...chapter 35, the Masthead, "for as the soul is glued inside of its fleshy tabernacle, and cannot freely move about in it, nor even move out of it, without running great risk of perishing"
These two pieces seemed related to me. That Melville is saying that Ahab's soul came too close to leaving the body...and although he did not perish, his soul was terribly altered, and altered terribly.
Now that I've made to thru chapter 46, I had to go back and check on chapter 41. It does so seem to be foreshadowing:
"No turbaned Turk, no hired Venetion or Malay could have smote him with more seeming malice" (199).
I'm ready to believe that at least one of those mystery men from the hold was a malicious Malayan.
I found the use of the word "smote" interesting. It's so Biblical. So often, I think, though I could be mistaken, that it usually corresponds with making a judgment. (God judged the people and smote them. Sometimes a misplaced judgment. Moses smote the rock even though God had told him not to...because he judge the rock was 'wrong' for not doing what he wanted. Sometimes anger.) But I really like the Biblical intonations that went with it.
"fell" I liked this word choice, too. "...ever since that almost fatal encounter, Ahab had cherished a wild vindictiveness against the whale, all the more fell for that in his frantic morbidness he at last came to indentify with him, not only all his bodily woes, but all his intellectual and spiritual exasperations" (199).
One of the definitions of fell is to cause to fall by striking or cutting down. Did the encounter with the whale, and the cutting off of Ahab's leg, result in the spiritual/moral/psychological fall of Ahab?
I'll probably never get back to this line of thought... In the chapters 20-40 set... much description of the deep unknown ... and I'm thinking Jung ... and now here in chapter 41, "[Ahab] deliriously transferring its idea ['the intangible malignity with has been from the beginning'] to the abhorred white whale, he pitted himself, all mutilated, against it" (199). So much discussion of transference in psychology.
..."their unconscious understandings" (203). Surely, when this is all done, I'll be able to find an Jungian interpretation of the book!
on page 200, "All that most maddens and torments...all truth with malice in it..." Isn't that so true? That IS the worst kind of truth...the most maddening, the MOST tormenting kind. Great truth there.
Oh, I found of note the sentence, "...and for long months of days and weeks, Ahab and anguish lay stretched out together [isn't that wonderfully worded?] ....; then it was, that his torn body and gashed soul bled into one another; and so interfusing, made him mad" (200).
This made me go back into the earlier part of the book...chapter 35, the Masthead, "for as the soul is glued inside of its fleshy tabernacle, and cannot freely move about in it, nor even move out of it, without running great risk of perishing"
These two pieces seemed related to me. That Melville is saying that Ahab's soul came too close to leaving the body...and although he did not perish, his soul was terribly altered, and altered terribly.
I think another aspect of Chapter 42, whiteness, is that whiteness out of place is upsetting. Whales are supposed to be black or grey;. When one is white, it presages something unnatural, something dangerous.
Does anyone besides me find it wildly improbable that Ahab could convince a boat crew to endure the tedium, darkness, and squalor of being confined below decks for such a long time, and just as improbable that they would be in any shape to go whale-hunting when they appeared?
Roger wrote: "Does anyone besides me find it wildly improbable that Ahab could convince a boat crew to endure the tedium, darkness, and squalor of being confined below decks for such a long time, and just as imp..."That hadn't occurred to me, but I'm not sure I consider it wildly improbable given the hardships of life in general and especially of life at sea in the 1840s.
Bill wrote: "This was also the perspective of meaninglessness that I saw with my original analysis of Ahab's "Pasteboard mask" speech in The Quarterdeck And Ishmael explicitly tells us in this chapter that this is the reason for the fiery hunt.But..but..I don't think this is the final word on Ahab. I don't see Ahabs despair as his final state. Ahab rails against nothingness, but he also has great faith in the unknown but still reasoning thing, the thing which turns the mask of nothingness into features, the man who strikes through the wall, the living act and the undoubted deed. "
Important points -- I think you're right that this chapter links back directly to the Quarterdeck chapter. The difference is that the Whiteness chapter is composed of Ishmael's thoughts. The kinship between Ahab and Ishmael in this respect is really interesting. At the very least I think it shows that Ishmael understands Ahab in a deep way.
But there are differences between them, which I think you point out -- Ahab is not resigned to this barren whiteness. He is determined to conquer it. He is passionately alive in his determination, which we see in the First Lowering (ch. 48) and in just about everything he says and does. Ishmael, on the other hand, seems to stand back in awe, observant but somehow helpless before the appalling indefiniteness and immensity of it all.
Bill wrote: "All the beauty in the world is a product of the same fight Ahab is engaged in."
I like that a lot.
Everyman wrote: "I think another aspect of Chapter 42, whiteness, is that whiteness out of place is upsetting. Whales are supposed to be black or grey;. When one is white, it presages something unnatural, somethi..."Leprosy, a symbol of sin in the Bible, turns the skin white.
Chapter 42, The Whiteness of the Whale
This chapter, I thought, was not as enjoyably readable; but it was rich in meaning---yes, ambiguous meaning.
As Evalyn posted, "The color white in literature traditionally means such things as innocence, purity, light or enlightenment," and I think that is generally the case in Western tradition. Yet it's worth remembering, I think, that Melville wasn't writing from a strictly Western tradition. He's writing on a larger scale. He's seen a good deal of the world and met all manner of men. In chapter 8, Ishmael, at chappel, muses, "Yes, the world's a ship on its passage out, and not a voyage complete..." (55). [Which seems to me to be the overarching metaphor of MD. You know, this is life, don't stay too close to comfort, go searching for the truth in the dangerous deep, etc.]
Sorry, lost my way. So the ship represents the world. Vividly represented in variety by the collection of seamen onboard. Black, white, oriental, Quaker, whatever Queegueg is, etc. And people look at the same facts, the same forms, but with different interpretations. Yes, Westerners tend to see white purity or enlightenment or "good," but Orientals see white as representing death or mourning. It's a funeral color. [My husband is Chinese. Also, lol, I checked Wikipedia ... to see if he was "right" in what he said about what white meant to Chinese.]
Which brings me to Bill's post. Wonderful. "the ambiguity, contrast, and contradiction." It's all there. I had seen the contradiction. And even though I couldn't help but notice all the shadows, dimness, grayness in the book, and hadn't translated that into ambiguity. Oh, Bill's post opened my eyes to that.
Where someone [sorry, I don't think I can go back a page without losing what I have here] wrote about the mottled body of Moby Dick. Fabulous. Just fabulous. Because there was Moby Dick, admittedly with "a peculiar snow-white wrinkled forehead... and a high, pyramidical white hump."
Now perhaps the the snow-white wrinkled forehead might be meant {lol...laughing hysterically...in a non-vocal sort of way...as if anything of clear meaning can be garnered from reading Melville's Moby Dick...lol...but that's the point!!!}...
perhaps the white wrinkled forehead might be meant to be man's Reason...when man is thinking clearly...reasonably. But it's only that little bit on the forehead. The body! The body is larger by far than the forehead. And representationally, here, the body is mottled, whites and grays and "an elusive something" and "the indefiniteness" of its shadows...
Back to Bill. Meaning/Meaninglessness. I'm walking down that path with you. Ha! What did Ahab call it? The whale path? The whale way? "All these things are not without their meaning" (52). "What could me more full of meaning"(55)? {I had more, but my copy is so highlighted and jotted over that it's difficult to find specifics. What a book!}
So, meaning. And the whale. So Melville seems to be saying that there is a little bit of reason, which we use to direct our lives a little, but that the larger part of our lives (like Moby Dick's body) is ambiguous, open to interpretation, influenced by culture and personal background. It's a Rorschach test. Personal every time. It HAS to be. If one is staying safe back there on the lee shore, following the rules of society...which tend to bring material comfort....ah, like that bit in the book....thinking that the shore, the material comfort, the safety of the port, is what we want if we could only get there....but, that is EXACTLY what will sink our ship...you know, metaphorically...in the passage of life. And that if one is not captaining one's own ship, and if one isn't taking that journey out to deep waters, one is not going to find one's own truth.
Everyone reads their own meaning into the Rorschach test of life. To find one's own meaning. "It is the image of the ungraspable phantom of life; and this is the key to it all" (19). If one wants to try to understand one's own life. Like Ishmael said, "I never go as a passenger" (19).
Edit added. Oh, I forgot, Wikipedia's definition of white included "An object whose surface reflects back most of the light it receives."
Meaning....there is no meaning in Moby Dick himself....the only meaning there is what we give him... reflected back from what we project towards him.
This chapter, I thought, was not as enjoyably readable; but it was rich in meaning---yes, ambiguous meaning.
As Evalyn posted, "The color white in literature traditionally means such things as innocence, purity, light or enlightenment," and I think that is generally the case in Western tradition. Yet it's worth remembering, I think, that Melville wasn't writing from a strictly Western tradition. He's writing on a larger scale. He's seen a good deal of the world and met all manner of men. In chapter 8, Ishmael, at chappel, muses, "Yes, the world's a ship on its passage out, and not a voyage complete..." (55). [Which seems to me to be the overarching metaphor of MD. You know, this is life, don't stay too close to comfort, go searching for the truth in the dangerous deep, etc.]
Sorry, lost my way. So the ship represents the world. Vividly represented in variety by the collection of seamen onboard. Black, white, oriental, Quaker, whatever Queegueg is, etc. And people look at the same facts, the same forms, but with different interpretations. Yes, Westerners tend to see white purity or enlightenment or "good," but Orientals see white as representing death or mourning. It's a funeral color. [My husband is Chinese. Also, lol, I checked Wikipedia ... to see if he was "right" in what he said about what white meant to Chinese.]
Which brings me to Bill's post. Wonderful. "the ambiguity, contrast, and contradiction." It's all there. I had seen the contradiction. And even though I couldn't help but notice all the shadows, dimness, grayness in the book, and hadn't translated that into ambiguity. Oh, Bill's post opened my eyes to that.
Where someone [sorry, I don't think I can go back a page without losing what I have here] wrote about the mottled body of Moby Dick. Fabulous. Just fabulous. Because there was Moby Dick, admittedly with "a peculiar snow-white wrinkled forehead... and a high, pyramidical white hump."
Now perhaps the the snow-white wrinkled forehead might be meant {lol...laughing hysterically...in a non-vocal sort of way...as if anything of clear meaning can be garnered from reading Melville's Moby Dick...lol...but that's the point!!!}...
perhaps the white wrinkled forehead might be meant to be man's Reason...when man is thinking clearly...reasonably. But it's only that little bit on the forehead. The body! The body is larger by far than the forehead. And representationally, here, the body is mottled, whites and grays and "an elusive something" and "the indefiniteness" of its shadows...
Back to Bill. Meaning/Meaninglessness. I'm walking down that path with you. Ha! What did Ahab call it? The whale path? The whale way? "All these things are not without their meaning" (52). "What could me more full of meaning"(55)? {I had more, but my copy is so highlighted and jotted over that it's difficult to find specifics. What a book!}
So, meaning. And the whale. So Melville seems to be saying that there is a little bit of reason, which we use to direct our lives a little, but that the larger part of our lives (like Moby Dick's body) is ambiguous, open to interpretation, influenced by culture and personal background. It's a Rorschach test. Personal every time. It HAS to be. If one is staying safe back there on the lee shore, following the rules of society...which tend to bring material comfort....ah, like that bit in the book....thinking that the shore, the material comfort, the safety of the port, is what we want if we could only get there....but, that is EXACTLY what will sink our ship...you know, metaphorically...in the passage of life. And that if one is not captaining one's own ship, and if one isn't taking that journey out to deep waters, one is not going to find one's own truth.
Everyone reads their own meaning into the Rorschach test of life. To find one's own meaning. "It is the image of the ungraspable phantom of life; and this is the key to it all" (19). If one wants to try to understand one's own life. Like Ishmael said, "I never go as a passenger" (19).
Edit added. Oh, I forgot, Wikipedia's definition of white included "An object whose surface reflects back most of the light it receives."
Meaning....there is no meaning in Moby Dick himself....the only meaning there is what we give him... reflected back from what we project towards him.
There's Ahab, going against God. Vengence is mine, saith the Lord. And Ahab eats, sleeps, and breathes vengence.
Mmmm, Ahab has a wrinkled brow, too.
"While thus employed, the heavy pewter lamp {and lamps bring light, reason] suspended in the chains over his head, continually rocked with the motion of the ship, and for ever threw shifting gleams and shadows of lines upon his wrinkled brow" (213, chapter 44, The Chart).
Nice, yes? He can't reason clearly, because the light that would make the chart clear for him isn't steady. That's life. No steady light.
But the following part of the sentence was the part that came alive for me:
"till it almost seemed that while he himself was marking out lines and courses ont the wrinkled charts, some invisible pencil was also tracing lines and courses upon the deeply marked chart of his forehead" (214).
This, it seems to me, that Ahab isn't just chasing his whale...not impartially, not reasonably. It's made changes in Ahab. {Like Dorian Gray.} He's not just setting the course. The course is marking and setting him as well.
"While thus employed, the heavy pewter lamp {and lamps bring light, reason] suspended in the chains over his head, continually rocked with the motion of the ship, and for ever threw shifting gleams and shadows of lines upon his wrinkled brow" (213, chapter 44, The Chart).
Nice, yes? He can't reason clearly, because the light that would make the chart clear for him isn't steady. That's life. No steady light.
But the following part of the sentence was the part that came alive for me:
"till it almost seemed that while he himself was marking out lines and courses ont the wrinkled charts, some invisible pencil was also tracing lines and courses upon the deeply marked chart of his forehead" (214).
This, it seems to me, that Ahab isn't just chasing his whale...not impartially, not reasonably. It's made changes in Ahab. {Like Dorian Gray.} He's not just setting the course. The course is marking and setting him as well.
Adelle wrote: This, it seems to me, that Ahab isn't just chasing his whale...not impartially, not reasonably. It's made changes in Ahab. {Like Dorian Gray.} He's not just setting the course. The course is marking and setting him as well. Very interesting point. Paints the whole book in another light.
Ooops. I was going to add on post 16. I thought that Melville had included a share (a lay) of symbolism in the hump, too. (Naturally, I'm reading meaning in right and left. What a fun book.)
Moby Dick has "a high, pyramidical white hump" (198).
It high. So I see it as a higher something in our own lives to which we can aspire or aim. (Mmm, might the harpooners aim at the hump???) And it's pyramidically shaped. Interesting word choice. I never naturally think of a whale's hump as pyramid-shaped. So naturally I think there must be meaning there.
So I'm thinking that the pryamid shape represents mystery [we don't understand them], perhaps spirituality {I think of the pyramids as having been built with a view towards religion or spirituality}, meaning [considering the time, effort, treasure put into building the pyramids, there must have been meaning].
And we need that in our lives as much as reason. Using our reason and our spiritual tools, we interpret the mass of ambiguity in our lives and build meaning into our lives.
Moby Dick has "a high, pyramidical white hump" (198).
It high. So I see it as a higher something in our own lives to which we can aspire or aim. (Mmm, might the harpooners aim at the hump???) And it's pyramidically shaped. Interesting word choice. I never naturally think of a whale's hump as pyramid-shaped. So naturally I think there must be meaning there.
So I'm thinking that the pryamid shape represents mystery [we don't understand them], perhaps spirituality {I think of the pyramids as having been built with a view towards religion or spirituality}, meaning [considering the time, effort, treasure put into building the pyramids, there must have been meaning].
And we need that in our lives as much as reason. Using our reason and our spiritual tools, we interpret the mass of ambiguity in our lives and build meaning into our lives.
I want to start by saying that I agree with what has been posted here about Melville believing that you have to leave the safety of comfortable ideas and go out in search of meaning. But I think there's an interesting contradiction in his view of this that I haven't been able to wrap my mind around. Apart from Ishmael (who we seem to be seeing less and less of as a character), Ahab is the great thinking character in this novel. Others have discussed this at length, so I won't elaborate. But it's also pretty clear to me that, whatever it is that finally happens to Ahab in the end, it's going to be bad. And I think this bad end will be brought on, in part, by many of the qualities that we (and, I think, Ishmael and Melville) find admirable in him. In the end, I don't think that it's likely to be only his obsession with Moby Dick that will be his fatal flaw (and I think he's likely to turn out to be a classic tragic hero with a fatal flaw). I realize my thinking here is rather disordered, and perhaps that's because this question can't be truly addressed before we actually find out what happens in the end, but I keep coming back to it every time I read a post about Ahab as a thinking person.
Audrey wrote: "Post 21"But it's also pretty clear to me that, whatever it is that finally happens to Ahab in the end, it's going to be bad."
My thinking, too, is that from the point of view of this world, it's going to be bad. But I'm still routing for Ahab. I'm hoping that he manages to save his soul. (As Elijah pointed out, Ahab has more soul than anyone else on board ship. Ishmael and Queequeg weren't on board the ship as yet. Perhaps the crew on board had already lost their souls...Perhaps judgment was that it WAS their time to die. Fate? Just Punishment?
And Ahab, mmm, if we go back to [Edit: Audrey]'s post regarding who is Job. Satan wanted to test Job because his was a soul worth having. Maybe Ahab had a soul worth having. Maybe, if looked at from that Biblical point, that's why Ahab is being sorely test. Don't know. Worth thinking about.
Thinking. Yes, Ahab is a thinking man. And calculating. And now devious. Keeping his true designs hidden from those who were in position to re-hire him to captain the ship.
The Bildads, etc., back in port, were calculating, too. Melville even used that word for them. Calculating that having lost a leg to a whale, Ahab will go after whales with gusto...bring home the wealth to them....Ahab probably needs the employment...but Bildad, etc. see their own advantage.
My thinking, too, is that from the point of view of this world, it's going to be bad. But I'm still routing for Ahab. I'm hoping that he manages to save his soul. (As Elijah pointed out, Ahab has more soul than anyone else on board ship. Ishmael and Queequeg weren't on board the ship as yet. Perhaps the crew on board had already lost their souls...Perhaps judgment was that it WAS their time to die. Fate? Just Punishment?
And Ahab, mmm, if we go back to [Edit: Audrey]'s post regarding who is Job. Satan wanted to test Job because his was a soul worth having. Maybe Ahab had a soul worth having. Maybe, if looked at from that Biblical point, that's why Ahab is being sorely test. Don't know. Worth thinking about.
Thinking. Yes, Ahab is a thinking man. And calculating. And now devious. Keeping his true designs hidden from those who were in position to re-hire him to captain the ship.
The Bildads, etc., back in port, were calculating, too. Melville even used that word for them. Calculating that having lost a leg to a whale, Ahab will go after whales with gusto...bring home the wealth to them....Ahab probably needs the employment...but Bildad, etc. see their own advantage.
Ahab. A man who appreciated symbols.
A wood leg would have weighed much less than an ivory leg. Made his life much easier. Yet Ahab has chosen the ivory.
Speaking of Ahab and his leg. LOVED the conversation with, I think, Stubb. Regarding how much of his leg Ahab lost. Chapter 50. Flask saying that if Ahab leg had been taken off at the hip, "That would disable him."
And Stubb responding, "I don't know that, my little man; I never yet saw him kneel."
A wood leg would have weighed much less than an ivory leg. Made his life much easier. Yet Ahab has chosen the ivory.
Speaking of Ahab and his leg. LOVED the conversation with, I think, Stubb. Regarding how much of his leg Ahab lost. Chapter 50. Flask saying that if Ahab leg had been taken off at the hip, "That would disable him."
And Stubb responding, "I don't know that, my little man; I never yet saw him kneel."
Audrey wrote: "post 21...Ahab... a thinking man."
It occurs to me, maybe this is saying that thinking, reasoning, isn't enough for a man.
It occurs to me, maybe this is saying that thinking, reasoning, isn't enough for a man.
@ Post 11 Everyman wrote: "I think another aspect of Chapter 42, whiteness, is that whiteness out of place is upsetting. Whales are supposed to be black or grey;. When one is white, it presages something unnatural, somethi..."
That occurred to me as well. The inherent "wrongness" of the color. Yes, as something unnatural. Ishmael had spoken of albinos, and how they are in every way functional. But deep in our DNA, we know they are "wrong." Because back when DNA instincts helped us more than intellect, people, animals, "knew" that mating with an albino would not be beneficial. One's offspring, being white in a world where white would stand out to its detriment, would not be good. Time magazine, last year I think, had a story on people choosing/or not choosing who they thought would be good mates ... based on photographs. Even though the people could not really explain why they had rejected most the their rejections... The story explained that it was because the "knew" there was something wrong with them. There were subtle, subltle genetic "wrongs" with the people. One eye might have been an 8th of inch off. Or there was a slight, slight non-symetricality to the face. Nothing that the people could articulate. But they "knew" on a deep, deep level. "Oh, that's WRONG."
Or like plants that haven't been in the light....all whitish...not healthy....on their way to dead...the pallor of the dead. I most especially appreciated the horseman of the Apocalypse...the pale one.
From wikipedia
Pale Horse
The fourth horseman as depicted in the Bamberg Apocalypse (1000-1020)When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come and see!" I looked and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hell was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
— Revelation 6:7-8˄ NIV
The fourth and final horseman is named Death. Of all the riders, he is the only one to whom the text itself explicitly gives a name. Still others apply the names "Pestilence"[9] or "Plague" to this horseman, based on alternative translations of the Bible (such as the Jerusalem Bible). Unlike the other three, he is not described carrying a weapon/object, instead he is followed by Hades. However, illustrations—like those above—commonly depict him carrying a scythe (like the Grim Reaper) or a sword. [ASIDE...mmm, Moby Dick used his mouth as a scythe and cut off Ahab's lef. Mmmm. Maybe...maybe...it HAD been Ahab's fate to die at that point....but Ahab, being the man he was, fought back, fought his way back to life...but the experience changed him.][Reminds me. Next post.]
The color of Death's horse is written as khlôros (χλωρóς) in the original Koine Greek, which is often translated as "pale", though "ashen", "pale green" and "yellowish green"[8] are other possible interpretations. The color suggests the sickly pallor of a corpse.[4][10] Other translations hypothesize a reference not yet to "greenish", but "mottled" or spotted. [ASIDE: Moby Dick wasn't actually white, but mottled. Nice.]
That occurred to me as well. The inherent "wrongness" of the color. Yes, as something unnatural. Ishmael had spoken of albinos, and how they are in every way functional. But deep in our DNA, we know they are "wrong." Because back when DNA instincts helped us more than intellect, people, animals, "knew" that mating with an albino would not be beneficial. One's offspring, being white in a world where white would stand out to its detriment, would not be good. Time magazine, last year I think, had a story on people choosing/or not choosing who they thought would be good mates ... based on photographs. Even though the people could not really explain why they had rejected most the their rejections... The story explained that it was because the "knew" there was something wrong with them. There were subtle, subltle genetic "wrongs" with the people. One eye might have been an 8th of inch off. Or there was a slight, slight non-symetricality to the face. Nothing that the people could articulate. But they "knew" on a deep, deep level. "Oh, that's WRONG."
Or like plants that haven't been in the light....all whitish...not healthy....on their way to dead...the pallor of the dead. I most especially appreciated the horseman of the Apocalypse...the pale one.
From wikipedia
Pale Horse
The fourth horseman as depicted in the Bamberg Apocalypse (1000-1020)When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come and see!" I looked and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hell was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
— Revelation 6:7-8˄ NIV
The fourth and final horseman is named Death. Of all the riders, he is the only one to whom the text itself explicitly gives a name. Still others apply the names "Pestilence"[9] or "Plague" to this horseman, based on alternative translations of the Bible (such as the Jerusalem Bible). Unlike the other three, he is not described carrying a weapon/object, instead he is followed by Hades. However, illustrations—like those above—commonly depict him carrying a scythe (like the Grim Reaper) or a sword. [ASIDE...mmm, Moby Dick used his mouth as a scythe and cut off Ahab's lef. Mmmm. Maybe...maybe...it HAD been Ahab's fate to die at that point....but Ahab, being the man he was, fought back, fought his way back to life...but the experience changed him.][Reminds me. Next post.]
The color of Death's horse is written as khlôros (χλωρóς) in the original Koine Greek, which is often translated as "pale", though "ashen", "pale green" and "yellowish green"[8] are other possible interpretations. The color suggests the sickly pallor of a corpse.[4][10] Other translations hypothesize a reference not yet to "greenish", but "mottled" or spotted. [ASIDE: Moby Dick wasn't actually white, but mottled. Nice.]
Ok. Last post and then I must rejoin life.
Chapter 47. The Mat-Maker.
"Cloudy." Of course. "...weaving away at the Fates. There lay the fixed threads of the warp subject to but one single, ever returning, unchanging vibration...
and here, thought I, with my own hand I ply my own shuttle and weave my own destiny into these unalterable threads...
aye, chance, free will, and necessity--
will still free to ply her shuttle between given threads...
[it must stay in the path, the whale way, the general course...the sideways motions determined by will]
chance by turns rules either [free will or necessity], and has the last featuring blow at events" (231).
Ahab, I thought, a man of will, trying to weave a pattern of his own determination into the cloth of life.
Stubb. I really thought this a name Ahab would appreciate in regards to Stubb. A stub of a man. Ahab putting everything into directing his own life...growing...a man of stature. Stubb...letting others and life's events prune him into his place in life. Ha! "He was a native of Cape Cod; and hence, [defined by where he came from], according to local usage [defined by what others determine for him], was called a Cape Cod man" (131, ch 27, Knights and Squires).
Neither this nor that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJ9rUz... little high, little low, any way the wind blows, doesn't really matter, to me.
"neither craven nor valient, taking perils as they came with an indifferent air" (131).
That whole dream episode. I found it reflective of Stubb. He WAS upset that Ahab had kicked him. But he manages to rationalize the whole thing in order to keep everthing smooth.
"What he thought of death itself, there is no telliing. whether he ever thought of it all, might be a question."
"Stubb.....resolved to solace the languishing interval with his pipe" (238).
Stubb, on the boat chasing the whale, saying something to the effect, well, what will be will be.
Chapter 47. The Mat-Maker.
"Cloudy." Of course. "...weaving away at the Fates. There lay the fixed threads of the warp subject to but one single, ever returning, unchanging vibration...
and here, thought I, with my own hand I ply my own shuttle and weave my own destiny into these unalterable threads...
aye, chance, free will, and necessity--
will still free to ply her shuttle between given threads...
[it must stay in the path, the whale way, the general course...the sideways motions determined by will]
chance by turns rules either [free will or necessity], and has the last featuring blow at events" (231).
Ahab, I thought, a man of will, trying to weave a pattern of his own determination into the cloth of life.
Stubb. I really thought this a name Ahab would appreciate in regards to Stubb. A stub of a man. Ahab putting everything into directing his own life...growing...a man of stature. Stubb...letting others and life's events prune him into his place in life. Ha! "He was a native of Cape Cod; and hence, [defined by where he came from], according to local usage [defined by what others determine for him], was called a Cape Cod man" (131, ch 27, Knights and Squires).
Neither this nor that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJ9rUz... little high, little low, any way the wind blows, doesn't really matter, to me.
"neither craven nor valient, taking perils as they came with an indifferent air" (131).
That whole dream episode. I found it reflective of Stubb. He WAS upset that Ahab had kicked him. But he manages to rationalize the whole thing in order to keep everthing smooth.
"What he thought of death itself, there is no telliing. whether he ever thought of it all, might be a question."
"Stubb.....resolved to solace the languishing interval with his pipe" (238).
Stubb, on the boat chasing the whale, saying something to the effect, well, what will be will be.
A Few questions concerning the chapter entitled 'the town ho's' story.1) Why do you think that this is included?
2) Why is it narrated in this manner?
3) Why is it so out of the time- line?
4) Is there any symbolic reason for the fact that this tale is told to these chosen listeners?
Everyman wrote: "Moby, by the way, was based on an actual whale, Mocha Dick (so named apparently because he frequented the area near Mocha Island) who was famous among Nantucket whalers. In 1939, 12 years before M..."Haha great minds think alike. I just started reading the chapter Moby Dick, and I was curious as to just why that name was chosen and what the meaning of it might be so I looked it up and found the same website you posted.
Vikz wrote: "What does everyone make of the use of colour within this section of the novel, all this talk of 'white'. In addition, what do you make of the strangers who have just appeared on the ship? Do they ..."I found the color thing very interesting. It reflects what have been spoken of before, the continual theme of the many duel aspects which are seen throughout the book.
I really thought it was fascinating how Ishmael approached the varrious different meanings of the color white, and how white devoid of all of the goodness and of its virtues becomes such a frightening thing. It also shows the way in which different colors can have different meanings in varrious different cultures. I could not help but think of the way in which in the Asian cultures white is the symbolic color of death it also made me think of the painting Death on a Pale Horse.
And as Ishmael brought up the subject of albino's and how they are often shunned it made me think of the way in which white in many animals is an "unnatural" color, and is an abnormality or mutation of the animal, and this is another way which perhaps furthers the image of Moby Dick as being something more than a whale, or of having this almost supernatural quality. It does also produce a ghostly effect, particuarly of thinking the way in which the whiteness would appear almost luminescent in the waters of the ocean, or beneath a night sky.
This may seem naive compared to some of the deep ideas explored in the thread so far. Still, I will ask. Does Ahab believe/expect that he will find and destroy Moby Dick?
Zeke wrote: "This may seem naive compared to some of the deep ideas explored in the thread so far. Still, I will ask. Does Ahab believe/expect that he will find and destroy Moby Dick?"Your question seems to be whether Ahab has faith in his destiny. I'm not sure about that, but failure doesn't seem to be an option for him either. My feeling is that Ahab will chase the whale until either the whale is destroyed or he destroys himself in the process.
Zeke wrote: "This may seem naive compared to some of the deep ideas explored in the thread so far. Still, I will ask. Does Ahab believe/expect that he will find and destroy Moby Dick?"This is an interesting question I think, and I have to pretty much agree with Thomas here. I do not know if Ahab truly has any expectation that at the end of this he will end up victorious, or that he will ever find and defeat the whale, or that doing so will give him that feeling of completeness he seeks.
In considering his remarks that have been pointed out in the pervious discussion about the way in which he would strike against the sun if the sun offended him, which is clearly an impossible task.
But I do agree that regardless of the probability or reality of success he will never stop, whatever happens.
Though I wonder, does he truly think that killing the great whale will in fact bring him any sense of peace? Or is his hate for the whale in fact the only thing which gives him purpose for life, and without that, if in fact he were to accomplish his task would he be left empty.
Is there some appeal in chasing this phantom like while, because of a subconscious wish that he may never catch him, because than he can forever be chasing him?
Silver wrote: It does also produce a ghostly effect, particuarly of thinking the way in which the whiteness would appear almost luminescent in the waters of the ocean, or beneath a night sky.
..."
Great image. I've seen white Koi in ponds. And a white Buluga whale in an aquarium. What an impact a white Sperm Whale would make!
..."
Great image. I've seen white Koi in ponds. And a white Buluga whale in an aquarium. What an impact a white Sperm Whale would make!
Bill wrote [@ 31] Adelle, your ideas you throw out one after the other in your posts."
'Tis true, I didn't flesh many of those out. {Maybe a mixed blessing!} Happy/sad....I had a most enjoyable time looking thru my copy of MD and throwing out ideas....but I knew it was about the last day that I could engage with Moby Dick for a couple of weeks (other commitments)...though I do plan to keep reading (will start “Town-Ho” this evening).
But you posted regarding Job...so I give myself permission to spend a little time here today.
I really appreciated your posting passages from Job. One does forget so many, many details. And reading your post prompted me to re-read a good portion of Job this morning.
I've been trying to keep in mind that Ahab, a Quaker in the 19th century, would have been very familiar with the story of Job. Both because it's a book that pastors (in my experience) frequently preach on (probably once a year), and also because, I'm thinking, it's a book that would be frequently studied by a man who had ... contentions... with his God.
And I suspect that Ahab had contentions prior to the loss of his leg. I might be mis-reading, but in Chapter 41, Moby Dick, page 199:
“…ever since that almost fatal encounter, Ahab had cherished (love that! not “held,” not even “embraced;” nay, Ahab cherished)
a wild (*)vindictiveness against the whale (* again, “Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord),
all the more fell (again, I think this implies a fall in Ahab)
for that in his frantic morbidness he at last came to (*) identify with him,
(* 1: to be or become the same; 2 : to practice psychological identification. For myself, I think it important here to keep in mind that this was triggered by the “almost fatal encounter;” that Ahab was suffering from “frantic” morbidness; and that it was Ahab who decided this, through an act of will…very probably based not on conscious, reasonable, objective facts, but based on the unconscious data --- such as stressed throughout the novel of superstitions, rumors, surmises, indefinite shadows, etc. --- that was suddenly more available to Ahab during his fevered recovery period) [more on this later…maybe]
not only all his bodily woes, but all his intellectual and spiritual exasperations.
I know it’s reading alot in that, but I can only tell you what I think, and I think that this implies that Ahab’s intellectual and spiritual “exasperations” had existed PRIOR to the loss of his leg. My reasoning is that the medical care available to Ahab at that time, onboard a whaler, what have been rudimentary. Ahab would likely have been in actual physical shock. I would imagine that he would have been given almost immediately morphine, or strong drink to help him cope with the pain. So I’m reasoning that Ahab isn’t conscious long enough to develop intellectual and spiritual exasperations having to do with his physical loss. And yet they are very pointed mentioned. So he must have had them PRIOR to the loss of his leg. Or so it seems to me.
From a psychological point of view, the next sentence, I think, is of some import:
“White Whale swam before him as the monomaniac incarnation of all those malicious agencies which some men feel eating in them, till they are left living on with half a heart and half a lung.”
Something, it seems to me, has been eating Ahab alive…psychologically…before he lost his leg…My take is that Ahab has been actively repressing something, like many men, perhaps most especially Quaker men with deeply ingrained religious backgrounds. And, oh, wouldn’t you just imagine that Ahab, man of will, would indeed be able to repress those thoughts he doesn’t want. Sexual thoughts??? Apparently there was a good deal more sexual openness in the islands of Polynesia than in the port town of Nantucket. Did Ahab have issues here that he wanted to keep repressed? I don’t know. Did he have doubts about his religion, about his God, but successfully had managed to keep those thoughts repressed? I don’t know. But I believe there was something.
A little further into the same paragraph, “[Ahab] deliriously transferring [some idea about evil or the devil] to the abhorred white whale, he pitted himself, all mutilated, against it” (200).
So as I read it, either through fever or morphine or strong pain-killing spirits, Ahab is delirious. He can’t exercise his will of steel. The drugs or fever have disabled that tool. The conscious clamp that he has successfully managed to keep firmly fasten down on the door to his unconscious has been rendered ineffective. And Ahab struggles with what he has successfully avoided struggling with for years.
Bill, in summarizing the Job story wrote, “Eventually Job's inquiries start taking on a tone that God should answer for Himself in these matters.”
It seems to me that Ahab started thinking along the same lines.
Bill wrote, “But try catching a whale--maybe if you could catch a whale you'd have a right to demand what I am up to."
Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down? Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?”
YES! Excellent. Excellent. Ahab, in his delirium, latches on to that. Ahab is a whaler, by God! Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? Yes, says Ahab. And….in his delirium…which Ishmael implies in some way rather unhinged Ahab…Ahab, I think, latched unto this as some sort of totem. If he could catch the whale…and not just any whale, but the White Whale, evil incarnate, somehow that would make everything somehow right again. Or, if he could get the whale that God … in his delirium … challenged him to get, THEN Ahab has permission from God himself to challenge God. Yes, to a reasonable man this wouldn’t make sense. But Ahab has been disturbed on a deep psychological level. He’s not the man he was, and it’s not just the leg.
Whatever Ahab wrestled with in his delirium, I think, drove him mad. He saw things about himself that he hadn’t wanted to see and that he couldn’t accept. There was truth in what he saw. Ahab IS a man with integrity. He’s not going to deny truth---not consciously. But, oh my God! this truth was such that “most maddens and torments; all that stirs up the (*)lees of things (* the settlement, the dregs, that which make bitter), …truth with malice in it…” (200).
NO. NO. NO. And Ahab, with his unconscious battering it’s way thru the delirium-weakened defenses of Ahab’s once impregnable consciousness, with his deeply ingrained religious structure perhaps under assault----and Ahab’s life is BUILT on this….
NO. NO. NO. And Ahab transfers. He won’t go after God. God told Job, “Gird up thy loins now like a man.” You know, Job complained to God. He was afraid, but he complained. “Even when I remember [that I am arguing/complaining to God] I am afraid, and trembling taketh hold on my flesh. But he stood firm and argued with God…or that he should be able to argue with God.
But Ahab, I suppose, came from a culture in which one wasn’t permitted to argue with God.
Ahab is not going to go after God directly. He’s girding up his loins and going after that psychological scape-goat whale. In his distorted thinking, that’s what he thinks he needs to do.
Job came to a place … after much complaining … of self-knowledge. “Whence then cometh wisdom?” Job asked. “and where is the place of understanding?”
I don’t know. I don’t know if that makes the sense that I wanted for it to have. It seems to me that had Ahab allowed himself to confront the issues that he had been repressing, that he, too, would have been able to come to some sort of self-understanding and it would have been a benefit for him and for his life.
But he wouldn’t so allow himself. Ahab, through his own strengths (which some times work against us), through the cultural restraints of his time, had built his own prison. But he doesn’t consciously realize it. As far as Ahab knows, he thinks he’s in control again. He thinks that he’s consciously directing his life. But he’s not, you know. (or so say I.)
and for long months of days and weeks, Ahab and anguish lay stretched out together then it was, that his torn body and gashed soul bled into one another; and so interfusing, made him mad" (200).
What, I wonder, will Ahab find when he manages to break through that prison wall?
LOL You are now free for the next two weeks. But thank you for letting me ponder here.
'Tis true, I didn't flesh many of those out. {Maybe a mixed blessing!} Happy/sad....I had a most enjoyable time looking thru my copy of MD and throwing out ideas....but I knew it was about the last day that I could engage with Moby Dick for a couple of weeks (other commitments)...though I do plan to keep reading (will start “Town-Ho” this evening).
But you posted regarding Job...so I give myself permission to spend a little time here today.
I really appreciated your posting passages from Job. One does forget so many, many details. And reading your post prompted me to re-read a good portion of Job this morning.
I've been trying to keep in mind that Ahab, a Quaker in the 19th century, would have been very familiar with the story of Job. Both because it's a book that pastors (in my experience) frequently preach on (probably once a year), and also because, I'm thinking, it's a book that would be frequently studied by a man who had ... contentions... with his God.
And I suspect that Ahab had contentions prior to the loss of his leg. I might be mis-reading, but in Chapter 41, Moby Dick, page 199:
“…ever since that almost fatal encounter, Ahab had cherished (love that! not “held,” not even “embraced;” nay, Ahab cherished)
a wild (*)vindictiveness against the whale (* again, “Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord),
all the more fell (again, I think this implies a fall in Ahab)
for that in his frantic morbidness he at last came to (*) identify with him,
(* 1: to be or become the same; 2 : to practice psychological identification. For myself, I think it important here to keep in mind that this was triggered by the “almost fatal encounter;” that Ahab was suffering from “frantic” morbidness; and that it was Ahab who decided this, through an act of will…very probably based not on conscious, reasonable, objective facts, but based on the unconscious data --- such as stressed throughout the novel of superstitions, rumors, surmises, indefinite shadows, etc. --- that was suddenly more available to Ahab during his fevered recovery period) [more on this later…maybe]
not only all his bodily woes, but all his intellectual and spiritual exasperations.
I know it’s reading alot in that, but I can only tell you what I think, and I think that this implies that Ahab’s intellectual and spiritual “exasperations” had existed PRIOR to the loss of his leg. My reasoning is that the medical care available to Ahab at that time, onboard a whaler, what have been rudimentary. Ahab would likely have been in actual physical shock. I would imagine that he would have been given almost immediately morphine, or strong drink to help him cope with the pain. So I’m reasoning that Ahab isn’t conscious long enough to develop intellectual and spiritual exasperations having to do with his physical loss. And yet they are very pointed mentioned. So he must have had them PRIOR to the loss of his leg. Or so it seems to me.
From a psychological point of view, the next sentence, I think, is of some import:
“White Whale swam before him as the monomaniac incarnation of all those malicious agencies which some men feel eating in them, till they are left living on with half a heart and half a lung.”
Something, it seems to me, has been eating Ahab alive…psychologically…before he lost his leg…My take is that Ahab has been actively repressing something, like many men, perhaps most especially Quaker men with deeply ingrained religious backgrounds. And, oh, wouldn’t you just imagine that Ahab, man of will, would indeed be able to repress those thoughts he doesn’t want. Sexual thoughts??? Apparently there was a good deal more sexual openness in the islands of Polynesia than in the port town of Nantucket. Did Ahab have issues here that he wanted to keep repressed? I don’t know. Did he have doubts about his religion, about his God, but successfully had managed to keep those thoughts repressed? I don’t know. But I believe there was something.
A little further into the same paragraph, “[Ahab] deliriously transferring [some idea about evil or the devil] to the abhorred white whale, he pitted himself, all mutilated, against it” (200).
So as I read it, either through fever or morphine or strong pain-killing spirits, Ahab is delirious. He can’t exercise his will of steel. The drugs or fever have disabled that tool. The conscious clamp that he has successfully managed to keep firmly fasten down on the door to his unconscious has been rendered ineffective. And Ahab struggles with what he has successfully avoided struggling with for years.
Bill, in summarizing the Job story wrote, “Eventually Job's inquiries start taking on a tone that God should answer for Himself in these matters.”
It seems to me that Ahab started thinking along the same lines.
Bill wrote, “But try catching a whale--maybe if you could catch a whale you'd have a right to demand what I am up to."
Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down? Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?”
YES! Excellent. Excellent. Ahab, in his delirium, latches on to that. Ahab is a whaler, by God! Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? Yes, says Ahab. And….in his delirium…which Ishmael implies in some way rather unhinged Ahab…Ahab, I think, latched unto this as some sort of totem. If he could catch the whale…and not just any whale, but the White Whale, evil incarnate, somehow that would make everything somehow right again. Or, if he could get the whale that God … in his delirium … challenged him to get, THEN Ahab has permission from God himself to challenge God. Yes, to a reasonable man this wouldn’t make sense. But Ahab has been disturbed on a deep psychological level. He’s not the man he was, and it’s not just the leg.
Whatever Ahab wrestled with in his delirium, I think, drove him mad. He saw things about himself that he hadn’t wanted to see and that he couldn’t accept. There was truth in what he saw. Ahab IS a man with integrity. He’s not going to deny truth---not consciously. But, oh my God! this truth was such that “most maddens and torments; all that stirs up the (*)lees of things (* the settlement, the dregs, that which make bitter), …truth with malice in it…” (200).
NO. NO. NO. And Ahab, with his unconscious battering it’s way thru the delirium-weakened defenses of Ahab’s once impregnable consciousness, with his deeply ingrained religious structure perhaps under assault----and Ahab’s life is BUILT on this….
NO. NO. NO. And Ahab transfers. He won’t go after God. God told Job, “Gird up thy loins now like a man.” You know, Job complained to God. He was afraid, but he complained. “Even when I remember [that I am arguing/complaining to God] I am afraid, and trembling taketh hold on my flesh. But he stood firm and argued with God…or that he should be able to argue with God.
But Ahab, I suppose, came from a culture in which one wasn’t permitted to argue with God.
Ahab is not going to go after God directly. He’s girding up his loins and going after that psychological scape-goat whale. In his distorted thinking, that’s what he thinks he needs to do.
Job came to a place … after much complaining … of self-knowledge. “Whence then cometh wisdom?” Job asked. “and where is the place of understanding?”
I don’t know. I don’t know if that makes the sense that I wanted for it to have. It seems to me that had Ahab allowed himself to confront the issues that he had been repressing, that he, too, would have been able to come to some sort of self-understanding and it would have been a benefit for him and for his life.
But he wouldn’t so allow himself. Ahab, through his own strengths (which some times work against us), through the cultural restraints of his time, had built his own prison. But he doesn’t consciously realize it. As far as Ahab knows, he thinks he’s in control again. He thinks that he’s consciously directing his life. But he’s not, you know. (or so say I.)
and for long months of days and weeks, Ahab and anguish lay stretched out together then it was, that his torn body and gashed soul bled into one another; and so interfusing, made him mad" (200).
What, I wonder, will Ahab find when he manages to break through that prison wall?
LOL You are now free for the next two weeks. But thank you for letting me ponder here.
Adelle wrote: "“…ever since that almost fatal encounter, Ahab had cherished (love that! not “held,” not even “embraced;” nay, Ahab cherished)
It occurred to me...
regarding how Ahab cherished that vindictiveness...
look how well it corresponds to Ishmael at the beginning of Chapter 41, Moby-Dick:
"and stronger I shouted, and more did I hammer and clinch my oath, because of the dread in my soul" (193).
It occurred to me...
regarding how Ahab cherished that vindictiveness...
look how well it corresponds to Ishmael at the beginning of Chapter 41, Moby-Dick:
"and stronger I shouted, and more did I hammer and clinch my oath, because of the dread in my soul" (193).
Bill wrote: At this point, I think he definitely does think it would bring him peace. I also think it actually would do so."I feel that when one does engage upon such an epic quest, and when one sets themselves so much in this idea of vengeance, and is so fueled by such strong passionate feelings, that the eventual completion of the quest, should it ever come about can never truly bring satisfaction. It is sort of like the idea of the thrill of the hunt, so much anticipation is built into the rivalry and chasing down the whale, and how grandiose the whale is made out to be, that should Ahab succeed it will be left with a residue of disappointment that the chase is over, as well I do not think the actual victory can ever match up to the anticipation of it.
Ahab's existence revolves around his hunt for the white whale, as has been mentioned before, it was as if he had entered into this state of hibernation almost, secluding himself away just waiting until it was time again to take up the hunt once more, so should he conquer the whale, than what will be left for him in life? Can he really go on living a by comparison to his great epic quest, a mundane whaler where there will be no other challenge to match that of Moby Dick again, could he truly be content retiring and just living out a normal uneventful life after he has put so much soul into this one venture of such mythological proportions?
Bill wrote: "But this only one way to see Ahab. There is a completely opposite way to see him as well. And I think the The Town-Ho's Story, in comparing Ahab, in the character of Steelkilt, to Christ, gives us a clue as to this different perspective. "
I really don't see this Steelkilt-Christ connection. Steelkilt's a bad guy; he's actively planning a murder when fate intervenes! If not for the interference of fate, he would have been a cold-blooded murderer, and proud of it. Complete opposite of the "turn the other cheek" ethos of Christ.
I really don't see this Steelkilt-Christ connection. Steelkilt's a bad guy; he's actively planning a murder when fate intervenes! If not for the interference of fate, he would have been a cold-blooded murderer, and proud of it. Complete opposite of the "turn the other cheek" ethos of Christ.
Silver wrote: "Ahab's existence revolves around his hunt for the white whale, as has been mentioned before, it was as if he had entered into this state of hibernation almost, secluding himself away just waiting until it was time again to take up the hunt once more, so should he conquer the whale, than what will be left for him in life? Can he really go on living a by comparison to his great epic quest, a mundane whaler where there will be no other challenge to match that of Moby Dick again, could he truly be content retiring and just living out a normal uneventful life after he has put so much soul into this one venture of such mythological proportions?"
When you put it this way, yes, it's very hard to picture that Ahab could or can be satisfied by the death of his nemesis! To picture him contentedly captaining another whale ship after Moby is dead, or happily retiring -- both images are so incompatible with the man we've been shown so far that they're almost unthinkable, to me.
When you put it this way, yes, it's very hard to picture that Ahab could or can be satisfied by the death of his nemesis! To picture him contentedly captaining another whale ship after Moby is dead, or happily retiring -- both images are so incompatible with the man we've been shown so far that they're almost unthinkable, to me.
I just finished reading Ch. 45 "The Affidavit" which in some ways reminded me a lot of "The Advocate" But there was one line in particular which stood out to me So ignorant are most landsmen of some of the plainest and most palpable wonders of the world, that without some hints touching the plain facts, historical and otherwise, of the fishery, they might scout at Moby Dick as a monstrous fable, or still worse and more detestable, a hideous and intolerable allegory.
Particularly considering that today many people view the story as indeed being allegorical, so I wonder, is Melville being satirical here, is this meant as something of a joke upon himself? With all the Biblical, as well as other mythological allusions which are made throughout the story and particuarly in connection with Ahab can the story be seriously dismissed as allegorical?
Haha, I loved that line. Thanks for bringing it out, Silver. Even without knowing what Melville meant by it, I found it hilarious, because if he doesn't mean for readers to see his white whale allegorically, he sure is doing everything possible to make it hard for us to NOT see it that way.
M wrote: "Haha, I loved that line. Thanks for bringing it out, Silver. Even without knowing what Melville meant by it, I found it hilarious, because if he doesn't mean for readers to see his white whale alle..."Yes those were may thoughts, and particularly in the way in which he tells the readers not to view the story as just some monstrous fable, which of course that is exactly what it is. It seems there most be some intended humur, some joke here on the part of Melville.
Adelle wrote: "Mmmm, Ahab has a wrinkled brow, too. "While thus employed, the heavy pewter lamp {and lamps bring light, reason] suspended in the chains over his head, continually rocked with the motion of th..."
A beautiful example of close reading. Moby Dick and Ahab, both with their wrinkled brows.
Silver wrote: "I just finished reading Ch. 45 "The Affidavit" which in some ways reminded me a lot of "The Advocate" But there was one line in particular which stood out to me So ignorant are most landsmen of..."
At the end of Ch 42, Melville writes, "And of all these things th Albino whate was the symbol."
Zeke wrote: "This may seem naive compared to some of the deep ideas explored in the thread so far. Still, I will ask. Does Ahab believe/expect that he will find and destroy Moby Dick?"I believe quite firmly, yes. I think he plans not to return to Nantucket until he has. As captain, and with no fixed schedule, he can cruise as long as he chooses to (and as long as the crew doesn't mutiny!)
Silver wrote: "Though I wonder, does he truly think that killing the great whale will in fact bring him any sense of peace? Or is his hate for the whale in fact the only thing which gives him purpose for life, and without that, if in fact he were to accomplish his task would he be left empty. "That's really an excellent question, or pair of questions. But perhaps the other question, is peace what he's really looking for? (Or, in the modern buzzword, closure.) I'm not sure. I think he's jut out for vengeance. Vengeance is mine, says Ahab. Do people looking for vengeance expect to find peace at the end of their quest? Was Don Quixote looking for peace?
But also, if he does find and kill Moby Dick and survives, won't life be pretty empty for him? What next? Wouldn't everything else be anticlimactic, like a George Patton after the end of the war?
Everyman wrote: "That's really an excellent question, or pair of questions. But perhaps the other question, is peace what he's really looking for? (Or, in the modern buzzword, closure.) I'm not sure. I think he's jut out for vengeance.."I believe that people who are on a quest for vengeance initially believe, at least on some level that if indeed they achieve their vengeance they will be vindicated, and find that closure as you put it, that the fulfilling of their vengeance will bring them some satisfaction.
I think that they do convince themselves that the anger and hate which fuels them can be sated if only they can destroy their projection of the subject which they hold responsible for their anger.
I think Ahab does think that he can never comes to terms with the loss of his leg until he has destroyed the whale, and that may lead to why he feels the need as personifying the whale as being something which maliciously, personally offended him.
He is projecting his anger of what happened to him onto the whale because that gives him a tangible thing in which to blame for his condition.
Everyman wrote: But also, if he does find and kill Moby Dick and survives, won't life be pretty empty for him? What next? Wouldn't everything else be anticlimactic, like a George Patton after the end of the war?
Yes I think that he has become so consumed with his hunt for Moby Dick that if in fact he should ever succeed in defeating him, the death of the whale may very well ultimately signify his own death.
As is often the case with quests for vengeance rarely is the completion of it a true victory and rarely does the person find what they are truly seeking in it, but they realize they have become so wrapped up in their desire for revenge once that is taken away there is little else left for them.
I think there is some reason to doubt that the Town Ho story is entirely truthful, or that the allusions are really sincere. The story is told by Ishmael some time after the events in Moby Dick are complete, to some excitable Spaniards in Lima. The original story is itself hearsay, and the fact that Ishmael swears on the "largest sized Evangelists" in the hands of a priest is not only a bit ridiculous in itself, but belied by the fact that we know Ishmael is not religious. The Christian imagery in the story doesn't really make sense, but we can't miss it and feel a need to make sense of it anyway. The following chapter is about the "imaginary" and "delusional" depictions of whales, which I think may be a reflection on the previous tale as well. I'm starting to have suspicions about our narrator. I think Ishmael occasionally likes to have a little fun with his audience, and I don't think he's finished yet...
Silver wrote: "I believe that people who are on a quest for vengeance initially believe, at least on some level that if indeed they achieve their vengeance they will be vindicated, and find that closure as you put it, that the fulfilling of their vengeance will bring them some satisfaction. ."When your vengeance is against another person, I think that is probably true. I'm less sure about it if the vengeance is against an inanimate object -- if a rock from a wall falls on you, do you get peace by tearing down the whole wall in retaliation?
The whale is at an interesting point between the intentionality of human activity and the total non-intentionality of a rock falling off a wall. Did Moby Dick intend to attack Ahab? Or, more to the point, does Ahab believe that the whale intended to attack him? If you step on cat's tail and it automatically turns around and claws you, do you get any sort of peace retaliating against the cat?
I'm just toying with this idea, but I think that in order to get any real satisfaction out of killing Moby Dick, Ahab has to believe in at least some part of his mind that Moby was intentionally malevolent and wasn't just a dumb creature reacting purely by instinct.
Everyman wrote: I'm just toying with this idea, but I think that in order to get any real satisfaction out of killing Moby Dick, Ahab has to believe in at least some part of his mind that Moby was intentionally malevolent and wasn't just a dumb creature reacting purely by instinct."Personally I believe that Ahab very much believes that Moby Dick made an intentional and malicious attack against him. I do not think that Ahab sees Moby Dick as only a "dumb beast." But for Ahab I do think that the whale is much more than that.
Though I also think that Ahab is someone who would be inclined to view any assault against him as being an intentional act. If in fact a stone from a wall were to have fallen upon him, I think he would become convinced that it acted with intent and purpose just to offend him.
So even though we may know the unpractical of this, and the impossibility of it, in the mind of Ahab, he very much feels as if he has been wronged by wilful intent.
If Ahab did understand that Moby Dick's attack upon him was little more than a natural act which was not aimed at him personally, I don't think he would be capable of developing such a strong feeling of need for vengeance. He may still be angry at the whale for the loss of his leg, as one might become angry at a cat for scratching you and may have an initial desire to lash out against it, but I do not think the need for vengeance could be so deep seeded, so long lasting, and such a complete obsession as it is for Ahab without having a distinct feeling of personal wrong.
Bill wrote: "The sect is the Ophites and is one of several different christian gnostic sects which held that the creator of this world and the Old Testament god is in fact a malevolent, tyrannical god, sometimes called Yaldaboath, who is in control of this world. "
This isn't recognizable to me as "Christianity," particularly since it is heretical. But it may very well be that Ishmael means it that way -- when Ishmael asks the Spaniards to bring the priest they say "Though there are no Auto-da-Fes in Lima now...I fear our sailor friend runs the risk of the archiepiscopacy." A very odd thing to say if Ishmael is in earnest, since an auto-da-fe is a ritual punishment for heresy.
I still think Ishmael's story is a little... fishy.
Bill wrote: "M wrote: "I really don't see this Steelkilt-Christ connection. Steelkilt's a bad guy; he's actively planning a murder when fate intervenes! If not for the interference of fate, he would have been a..."
All of what you said is true. But even so, Christ even as a Judge or THE Judge wouldn't kill *for vengeance*. And in reading the Town-Ho story, Melville never brought me to feel "This man is doing the righteous thing in murdering his foe". Instead it had me thinking of the lawlessness of life at sea, and the danger faced by men who venture there, not just from the storms and the whales, but from each other.
I respect your view of Steelkilt as a possible allusion to Christ, but I don't agree with it.
All of what you said is true. But even so, Christ even as a Judge or THE Judge wouldn't kill *for vengeance*. And in reading the Town-Ho story, Melville never brought me to feel "This man is doing the righteous thing in murdering his foe". Instead it had me thinking of the lawlessness of life at sea, and the danger faced by men who venture there, not just from the storms and the whales, but from each other.
I respect your view of Steelkilt as a possible allusion to Christ, but I don't agree with it.
Bill wrote: I think this insane man will feel quite satisfied if he is able to kill God's attack whale. He thinks, in doing so, he will have dealt a severe blow to God himself. I think this is why Starbuck sees this mission as blasphemy.I think you've hit on it exactly, Bill.
We then move on to the further activities of the Peaquod, their meeting with other whalers and how whale ships meeting are so different from other ships meeting at sea, how they go about chasing whales, the very different characters of the three boat captains, and their first kill. Along the way we learn the secret of the mysterious figures boarding the ship and the sounds heard below decks. We also have the adventure of Ishmael's boat getting swamped and nearly lost in the fog.
I also hope somebody has a good handle on the underlying meaning (I'm sure it's there) of the story of the Town Ho.
This section also includes some of the chapter which help to explain the book's unfavorable reputation. I found the chapter on whiteness interesting and worth discussing; some of the chapters on pictorial representations of whales, the culinary aspects of whales, and other whale and whaling lore I will need Laurel to enliven for me.