Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Discussion - Moby Dick
>
Week 3 - Through Chapter 66
Roger wrote: "Xerxes had the Hellespont flogged for attempting to thwart his crossing in 480 BC. "LOL!!
Bill wrote: "Here in Ishmael, right along with Ahab, isn't Melville deliberately portraying another, different, but perhaps equally intense obsession with the Whale? That he is! Good catch.
Not a sophisticated comment, but I enjoyed the chapter Brit for at least two reasons. One, the line "As morning mowers, who side by side slowly and seethingly advance their scythes through the long wet grass of marshy meads; even so these monsters swam, making a strange, grassy, cutting sound; and leaving behind them endless swaths of blue upon the yellow sea" reminded me strongly of one of my favorite scenes in all literature, that of the mowing of the wheat field in Hardy's Tess. I really enjoyed this image.My second thought sort of vanished between reading the chapter and getting to the compute to comment on it. The first time I read the chapter, it sounded to me as though Melville, when he wrote "On the second day, numbers of Right Whales were seen, who, secure from the attack of a Sperm Whaler like the Pequod..." meant to suggest that the Right Whales knew that they were safe from the Peaquod and so just kept on feeding, as a dog will keep feeding when its master comes in but will stop and react when a stranger approaches. But on re-reading it for this posting, I wonder whether I was just reading into it something that wasn't there.
Everyman wrote: "Post 66 As morning mowers, who side by side slowly and seethingly advance their scythes through the long wet grass of marshy meads ..."
I happen to be still up.
It's a nicely worded sentence (and I understand that it has other associations for you which increase your enjoyment), but I was more taken with the following sentence:
"Seen from the mastheads, especially when they paused and were stationary for a while, their vast black forms looked more like lifeless masses of rock than anything else" (291).
For me, this sentence felt so Zen. The scattering of black "rocks" on the vast sea seemed so Zen, peaceful.
I happen to be still up.
It's a nicely worded sentence (and I understand that it has other associations for you which increase your enjoyment), but I was more taken with the following sentence:
"Seen from the mastheads, especially when they paused and were stationary for a while, their vast black forms looked more like lifeless masses of rock than anything else" (291).
For me, this sentence felt so Zen. The scattering of black "rocks" on the vast sea seemed so Zen, peaceful.
I was noticing that Melville has a pattern of writing each of his chapters with a "punchline." A really good example from this section that I admired was "The Line." Have folks noticed other authors doing this? Is there a name for this sort of technique? You see it in poetry quite a bit, but not so much in fiction.
Adelle wrote: "For me, this sentence felt so Zen. The scattering of black "rocks" on the vast sea seemed so Zen, peaceful. ."The juxtaposition of Melville and Zen made me chuckle. He has, so far, seemed totally un-Zenlike! Can you imagine Ahab meditating, or pondering koan?
Though, come to think of it, QueeQueg's Ramadan did have some Zen-like aspects, didn't it?
A brief comment on the squid. Did you know that a giant squid has the largest known eyes in the animal kingdom? http://news.nationalgeographic.com/ne...
Edit: turns out it was a colossal squid, which is bigger than the giant squid. And Melville was justified in saying that sperm whales eat squid: from a companion article to that I cited, "The deep-sea species was first discovered in 1925, though the only evidence was two tentacles found in a sperm whale's stomach. "
S. Rosemary makes an astute observation: I was noticing that Melville has a pattern of writing each of his chapters with a "punchline." A really good example from this section that I admired was "The Line." Have folks noticed other authors doing this? Is there a name for this sort of technique? You see it in poetry quite a bit, but not so much in fiction.
I agree. (That's why I characterized the observation as "astute!")
It seems that these are often philosophical "punch lines." It's almost as if he has related the events of the chapter in order to set up the punchline. Kind of like the preacher's homily--except that Ishmael, coyly, refuses to accept the role of preacher. At least so far.
The negative side of this --for me-- is that --unlike Huck, for example-- we don't get the feeling that Ishmael is discovering these things as he goes along.
I agree. (That's why I characterized the observation as "astute!")
It seems that these are often philosophical "punch lines." It's almost as if he has related the events of the chapter in order to set up the punchline. Kind of like the preacher's homily--except that Ishmael, coyly, refuses to accept the role of preacher. At least so far.
The negative side of this --for me-- is that --unlike Huck, for example-- we don't get the feeling that Ishmael is discovering these things as he goes along.
Zeke wrote: "S. Rosemary makes an astute observation:"So I'm sure I know what the two of you are talking about, can you give one or two examples of the sort of punchline situation you're talking about.
Everyman wrote: "Adelle wrote: "For me, this sentence felt so Zen. The scattering of black "rocks" on the vast sea seemed so Zen, peaceful. ."
The juxtaposition of Melville and Zen made me chuckle. He has, so far..."
LOL, no, Ahab has left the island of zen. I did try to find some photos of zen-like whales...all peaceful...but apparently most people like to take photos of the tails or spouting or such.
did find some peaceful looking black rocks though...
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=h...%
26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D908%26bih%3D351%26tbm%3Disch0%2C1719&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=502&vpy=63&dur=13923&hovh=183&hovw=276&tx=67&ty=45&oei=PI-jTYSPDYy4sQP07JT6DA&page=7&ndsp=10&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:63&biw=908&bih=351
With a little imagination...
I could be off the mark, but I felt that I knew what Rosemary was referring to and I felt she was right. Most of the chapters do seem to end strong with a philosophical "punch line."
Like even the Brit chapter: consider the cannibalism of the sea...and consider "this green, gentle, and most docile earth; consider them both, the sea and the land, and do you not find a strange analogy to something in yourself?
For as this appalling ociean surrounds the verdant land, so in the soul of man there lies one insular Tahiti, full of peace of joy, but encompassed by all the horrors of the half known life. God keep thee! Push not off from that isle, thou canst never return!" (293).
The conclusion of Stubb's Supper, I think, is a good representation as well:
"Wish, by gor! whale eat him, 'stead of him eat whale.
I'm blessed if he ain't more of shark dan Massa Shark hisself," muttered the old man..." (315).
That's if I'm correctly understanding Rosemary's point.
The juxtaposition of Melville and Zen made me chuckle. He has, so far..."
LOL, no, Ahab has left the island of zen. I did try to find some photos of zen-like whales...all peaceful...but apparently most people like to take photos of the tails or spouting or such.
did find some peaceful looking black rocks though...
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=h...%
26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D908%26bih%3D351%26tbm%3Disch0%2C1719&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=502&vpy=63&dur=13923&hovh=183&hovw=276&tx=67&ty=45&oei=PI-jTYSPDYy4sQP07JT6DA&page=7&ndsp=10&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:63&biw=908&bih=351
With a little imagination...
I could be off the mark, but I felt that I knew what Rosemary was referring to and I felt she was right. Most of the chapters do seem to end strong with a philosophical "punch line."
Like even the Brit chapter: consider the cannibalism of the sea...and consider "this green, gentle, and most docile earth; consider them both, the sea and the land, and do you not find a strange analogy to something in yourself?
For as this appalling ociean surrounds the verdant land, so in the soul of man there lies one insular Tahiti, full of peace of joy, but encompassed by all the horrors of the half known life. God keep thee! Push not off from that isle, thou canst never return!" (293).
The conclusion of Stubb's Supper, I think, is a good representation as well:
"Wish, by gor! whale eat him, 'stead of him eat whale.
I'm blessed if he ain't more of shark dan Massa Shark hisself," muttered the old man..." (315).
That's if I'm correctly understanding Rosemary's point.
Roger wrote: "Does anyone besides me find it wildly improbable that Ahab could convince a boat crew to endure the tedium, darkness, and squalor of being confined below decks for such a long time, and just as imp..."
After you asked that, I started to wonder...I am thinking that as the story was written before slavery in this country was ended, that perhaps Ahab had purchased them...perhaps promised them their freedom after a successful voyage. everyman's theory would work, too, times being tough.
After you asked that, I started to wonder...I am thinking that as the story was written before slavery in this country was ended, that perhaps Ahab had purchased them...perhaps promised them their freedom after a successful voyage. everyman's theory would work, too, times being tough.
It seems to be the "disturbed" crazy -- possibly evil-doing--- Ahab that is in control of Ahab during his waking hours. It seems to be that the "better" Ahab---is Ahab now a split personLity?
...the "better"personality only "awakens" when Ahab falls asleep...
He falls asleep and THEN "this he'll in himself yawned beneath him, a wild cry would be heard through the ship" ( ch 44 The Chart p217) and he would wake up and run out of his room.
It wasn't thoughts of Moby Dick that made him scream...what made him wake with screams was "the eternL, living principle or soul in him" (218).
...mention is made of "integral"... That Ahab's soul is no longer, during waking hours, integral with his mind... Interesting phrase: whatever is driving Ahab during his waking hours is of "unfathered birth" (218).
And then those next two astounding lines:
" therefore, the tormented spirit that glared out of bodily eyes, when what SEEMED to be Ahab rushed from his room, was for the time a VACATED thing (not even the word being....but the word thing)...
A formless (!) somnambulistic being, ray of living light, to be sure (I take this that there is still hope for Ahab)...but an object to color, and therefore a blankness in itself" (218).
"God help thee, (mmmm...Ishmael isn' t a Quaker....yet here is " thee")...old man, thy thoughts have created a creature in thee; and he whose intense thinking thus makes him a Prometheus; a vulture feeds upon that heart for ever; that vulture the very creature he creates" (218).
With the Quaker voice....who is talking here?
MIGHT it somehow be Ahab....??? The thees and thous...the "old man" ...like he's talking to himself.???? Who can know what Ahab's thoughts were.??? That recognized that like Prometheus he has defied the gods....for man to stand up to the gods???? But it's not Ishmael speaking here.
Just thoughts.
...the "better"personality only "awakens" when Ahab falls asleep...
He falls asleep and THEN "this he'll in himself yawned beneath him, a wild cry would be heard through the ship" ( ch 44 The Chart p217) and he would wake up and run out of his room.
It wasn't thoughts of Moby Dick that made him scream...what made him wake with screams was "the eternL, living principle or soul in him" (218).
...mention is made of "integral"... That Ahab's soul is no longer, during waking hours, integral with his mind... Interesting phrase: whatever is driving Ahab during his waking hours is of "unfathered birth" (218).
And then those next two astounding lines:
" therefore, the tormented spirit that glared out of bodily eyes, when what SEEMED to be Ahab rushed from his room, was for the time a VACATED thing (not even the word being....but the word thing)...
A formless (!) somnambulistic being, ray of living light, to be sure (I take this that there is still hope for Ahab)...but an object to color, and therefore a blankness in itself" (218).
"God help thee, (mmmm...Ishmael isn' t a Quaker....yet here is " thee")...old man, thy thoughts have created a creature in thee; and he whose intense thinking thus makes him a Prometheus; a vulture feeds upon that heart for ever; that vulture the very creature he creates" (218).
With the Quaker voice....who is talking here?
MIGHT it somehow be Ahab....??? The thees and thous...the "old man" ...like he's talking to himself.???? Who can know what Ahab's thoughts were.??? That recognized that like Prometheus he has defied the gods....for man to stand up to the gods???? But it's not Ishmael speaking here.
Just thoughts.
Post 26Bill wrote:regarding Ahab turning into a pyramid in Stubb's dream
I had totally forgotten that Abah turned into a pyramid in the dream.
I wonder what that means.
I had totally forgotten that Abah turned into a pyramid in the dream.
I wonder what that means.
Silver wrote: "Zeke wrote: "This may seem naive compared to some of the deep ideas explored in the thread so far. Still, I will ask. Does Ahab believe/expect that he will find and destroy Moby Dick?"
This is a..."
Interesting post. And the questions...here and elsewhere...Would Ahab be at peace if/when/if he finds and destroys Moby Dick...
I'm certain Ahab BELIEVES he will find Moby Dick:
"And where Abah's chances of accomplishing his object....when all possibilites would have become probabilites, and Ahab fondly thought, every possibility the next thing to a certainty" (216).
This is a..."
Interesting post. And the questions...here and elsewhere...Would Ahab be at peace if/when/if he finds and destroys Moby Dick...
I'm certain Ahab BELIEVES he will find Moby Dick:
"And where Abah's chances of accomplishing his object....when all possibilites would have become probabilites, and Ahab fondly thought, every possibility the next thing to a certainty" (216).
Post 43 Silver wrote: "I just finished reading Ch. 45 "The Affidavit" which in some ways reminded me a lot of "The Advocate" But there was one line in particular which stood out to me
So ignorant are most landsmen of..." ...don't take this as allegorical...and yet, the whole book is set up to be allegorical!!
Yes. The chapter is so full of contradictions.
Ishmael says, "I care not to perform this part of my task methodically...yet he pretty much goes on the perform methodically with his First, Second, etc.
But the First, Second; and then repeated use of First, Second; and repeat again....actually confused me.
I suspect that Ishmael labeled these items First, Second, etc. to give the FORM, the appearance of method... but to show that form or appearance is not necessarily the truth.
Also, I couldn't help but mull over the statement on page 222:
"when, I declare upon my soul, (!), I had no more idea of being facetious than Moses, when he wrote the history of the plagues of Egypt" ...
which, if Ishmael did not believe the history of Moses...implies that Ishmael's statement might not contain truth either.
In Ishmael's affidavit...though he uses the form of scientific numbering...he speaks of the act of a whale "as providential." But then makes us doubt that he believed it to be providential. Makes us wonder whether Ishmael actually believes in providence. "Was not Saul of Taurus," he asks, "converted from unbelief by a similar fright?" A question/not a statement. Just what DOES Ishmael believe???
as pointed out in other posts, the evidence, for "corrobative example" (the story) is sometimes mere heresay. (spelling??)
(aside: And there's Ahab, in the story... "he [the sperm whale][but also Ahab, I would think] then acts, no so often with blind rage, as with wilful, deliberate designs of destruction")
And then Ishmael undermines ANY firm foundation for his Affidavit...
"...Porcopius...By the best authorities [no specifics given...just take the teller's word for it]
he has always been considereed a most trustworthy and unexaggerating historian,
except in some one or two particulars, not at all affecting the matter presently to be mentioned" (226).
So... should we believe him??? even though sometimes he is not trustworthy or sometimes he exaggerates???
Ishmael than goes on, using words like "facts" that haven't been substantiated but are good enough because they've been written down a long time...and surely that's almost the same thing as having been proved...
and though it's not mentioned what species the big fish was, Ishmael says "it must have been a whale"...based on???
Ishmael says, "I think it must have been a sperm whale"...
The ending paragraph... "as far as I can learn".... "I have every reason to believe" ... "you will clearly perceive that...." "MUST [although without proof there is no "must" statement to be made here]...IN ALL PROBABLITY [no proof..just probability] have been a sperm whale"
Which leads directly into chapter 46, "Surmises"
So ignorant are most landsmen of..." ...don't take this as allegorical...and yet, the whole book is set up to be allegorical!!
Yes. The chapter is so full of contradictions.
Ishmael says, "I care not to perform this part of my task methodically...yet he pretty much goes on the perform methodically with his First, Second, etc.
But the First, Second; and then repeated use of First, Second; and repeat again....actually confused me.
I suspect that Ishmael labeled these items First, Second, etc. to give the FORM, the appearance of method... but to show that form or appearance is not necessarily the truth.
Also, I couldn't help but mull over the statement on page 222:
"when, I declare upon my soul, (!), I had no more idea of being facetious than Moses, when he wrote the history of the plagues of Egypt" ...
which, if Ishmael did not believe the history of Moses...implies that Ishmael's statement might not contain truth either.
In Ishmael's affidavit...though he uses the form of scientific numbering...he speaks of the act of a whale "as providential." But then makes us doubt that he believed it to be providential. Makes us wonder whether Ishmael actually believes in providence. "Was not Saul of Taurus," he asks, "converted from unbelief by a similar fright?" A question/not a statement. Just what DOES Ishmael believe???
as pointed out in other posts, the evidence, for "corrobative example" (the story) is sometimes mere heresay. (spelling??)
(aside: And there's Ahab, in the story... "he [the sperm whale][but also Ahab, I would think] then acts, no so often with blind rage, as with wilful, deliberate designs of destruction")
And then Ishmael undermines ANY firm foundation for his Affidavit...
"...Porcopius...By the best authorities [no specifics given...just take the teller's word for it]
he has always been considereed a most trustworthy and unexaggerating historian,
except in some one or two particulars, not at all affecting the matter presently to be mentioned" (226).
So... should we believe him??? even though sometimes he is not trustworthy or sometimes he exaggerates???
Ishmael than goes on, using words like "facts" that haven't been substantiated but are good enough because they've been written down a long time...and surely that's almost the same thing as having been proved...
and though it's not mentioned what species the big fish was, Ishmael says "it must have been a whale"...based on???
Ishmael says, "I think it must have been a sperm whale"...
The ending paragraph... "as far as I can learn".... "I have every reason to believe" ... "you will clearly perceive that...." "MUST [although without proof there is no "must" statement to be made here]...IN ALL PROBABLITY [no proof..just probability] have been a sperm whale"
Which leads directly into chapter 46, "Surmises"
Adelle wrote: So... should we believe him??? even though sometimes he is not trustworthy or sometimes he exaggerates??? ..."This brings up a point which I do not think has really been discussed thus yet, and that is, is Ishmael a reliable narrator?
The more we are starting to see of Ishmael and what he imparts to the reader, and what seem to be some of his exaggerations, as well as contradictions, I cannot help but to think back to an earlier discussion in the first part of this book.
There was a discussion in regards to QQ's biography and what he told Ishmael about his background, and if in fact QQ should be taken at face value or if he was having a bit of fun with Ishmael in the story he told.
But one must also remember that the reader is being given the information of QQ's history through Ishmael, which begs the question, if in fact Ishmael was having fun with the reader, and if the version of QQ's bio that he gave was an exaggeration of the truth and perhaps an embellishment of the version that QQ may have given to Ishmael.
Should anything Ishmael tells us be taken at face value?
Silver wrote: "Adelle wrote: So... should we believe him??? even though sometimes he is not trustworthy or sometimes he exaggerates??? ..."This brings up a point which I do not think has really been discussed..."
He is unreliable from the the very first line of the first chapter. But all narrators are unreliable to some degree. I don't think reliability is really a requirement for a story teller anyway -- sometimes what is left out, what makes the narrator unreliable, can tell us more than straight-forward reporting. It certainly makes a story more interesting than if it were told with consistent journalistic integrity.
Susanna wrote: "I think Ishmael (Melville) gives so many details about whales to show the grandeur of nature and, by extension, God as the creator of nature. This "obsession" is more like praise or love."
Yes, that's how it strikes me, too.
Yes, that's how it strikes me, too.
Regarding the chapters on whales.
Personally,I think it accomplishes a number of things. It does explain quite a bit about whales to readers who likely had very little knowledge of them. It does show a certain amount of ... serious interest or obsession on Ishmael's part. It does show "the grandeur of nature and, by extension, God as the creator of nature." That was quite nicely phrased.
But it seems to me, too, that Ishmael is showing that it's difficult, if not impossible, to be certain what the 'truth' is. Here we readers are, trying to figure out what's "true" about Ahab. Yes, Ishmael gives us facts about whales.
But he also makes sure that we're aware that the "facts" that emminent people "knew" in the past...were not true, were not facts at all.
"On the Monstrous Pictures of Whales"
the Hindoo, Egyptian, and Greeks portrayed whales incorrectly. Even descriptions or pictures supposedly "sober, scientific" are misrepresentation.
Even if I grant Ishmael the status of an expert, he tells me that I STILL won't really understand, that "the living whale, in his full majesty and significance, is only to be seen at sea in unfathomable waters"...that there's "no earthly way of finding out precisely what the whale really looks like."
But that, because there IS such grandeur in whales...that people try to capture their images...putting them on teeth and wood and in the stars.
I take it I'm never really going to able to understand Ahab either...that Ishmael is saying that even he hasn't been able to convey all of Ahab's story in a way that I would truly be able to understand...
But that there is grandeur in Ahab, too, and this is Ishmael's attempt to portray it.
Personally,I think it accomplishes a number of things. It does explain quite a bit about whales to readers who likely had very little knowledge of them. It does show a certain amount of ... serious interest or obsession on Ishmael's part. It does show "the grandeur of nature and, by extension, God as the creator of nature." That was quite nicely phrased.
But it seems to me, too, that Ishmael is showing that it's difficult, if not impossible, to be certain what the 'truth' is. Here we readers are, trying to figure out what's "true" about Ahab. Yes, Ishmael gives us facts about whales.
But he also makes sure that we're aware that the "facts" that emminent people "knew" in the past...were not true, were not facts at all.
"On the Monstrous Pictures of Whales"
the Hindoo, Egyptian, and Greeks portrayed whales incorrectly. Even descriptions or pictures supposedly "sober, scientific" are misrepresentation.
Even if I grant Ishmael the status of an expert, he tells me that I STILL won't really understand, that "the living whale, in his full majesty and significance, is only to be seen at sea in unfathomable waters"...that there's "no earthly way of finding out precisely what the whale really looks like."
But that, because there IS such grandeur in whales...that people try to capture their images...putting them on teeth and wood and in the stars.
I take it I'm never really going to able to understand Ahab either...that Ishmael is saying that even he hasn't been able to convey all of Ahab's story in a way that I would truly be able to understand...
But that there is grandeur in Ahab, too, and this is Ishmael's attempt to portray it.
The Line, Chapter 60 last paragraph
"But why say more? All men live enveloped in whale-lines.
All are born with halters round their necks; but it is only when caught in the swift, sudden turn of death, that mortals realize the silent, sublte, ever-present perils of life.....terror...."
Might Moby Dick be viewed as ... Ahab, due to the attack by Moby Dick, realizes death is coming. Ahab's determination against Moby Dick is a metaphor for the determination of every man against death. Were Ahab diagosed with cancer, he would just accept it. He would take the fight to the cancer. Aggressive therapy. He would throw his determination and energies into killing the cancer that was trying to kill him.
"But why say more? All men live enveloped in whale-lines.
All are born with halters round their necks; but it is only when caught in the swift, sudden turn of death, that mortals realize the silent, sublte, ever-present perils of life.....terror...."
Might Moby Dick be viewed as ... Ahab, due to the attack by Moby Dick, realizes death is coming. Ahab's determination against Moby Dick is a metaphor for the determination of every man against death. Were Ahab diagosed with cancer, he would just accept it. He would take the fight to the cancer. Aggressive therapy. He would throw his determination and energies into killing the cancer that was trying to kill him.
Chapter 61, Stubb Kills a Whale
Includes yet another reminder of man's divided nature.
(Again, Peleg, at the beginning of the novel, represents division.)
Here in this chapter, "two keels--one cleaving the water, the other the air"
Includes yet another reminder of man's divided nature.
(Again, Peleg, at the beginning of the novel, represents division.)
Here in this chapter, "two keels--one cleaving the water, the other the air"
Chapter 64, Stubb's Supper
I loved the midnight scene, Stubb eating his almost raw whale steak, (1) the sharks: "thousands on thousands of sharks, swarming round the dead leviathan, smackingly feasted on its fatness"
I tried visualizing that. I had had no idea that the sharks came swarming in. But... has someone had posted earlier on The Old Man and the Sea.... the sharks came in in that novel, as well.
(2) old Fleece's sermon, his that's Christianity speech:
"Your waraciousness, fellow-critters, I don't blame ye s much for, dat is nature, and can't be helped; but to gobern dat wicked nature, dat is de pint. You is sharks, sartin; but if you gobern de shark in you..."
There is no expectation that sharks are going to govern their natures. Man has a natural nature, too. What makes man different from sharks? How well can he govern that nature? As Stubb's put it, "It's a ticklish business, but must be done, or else it's no go."
I so want for Ahab--the Ahab who is still in contact with his soul---to succeed...although I'm not sure how to define success for him.
I loved the midnight scene, Stubb eating his almost raw whale steak, (1) the sharks: "thousands on thousands of sharks, swarming round the dead leviathan, smackingly feasted on its fatness"
I tried visualizing that. I had had no idea that the sharks came swarming in. But... has someone had posted earlier on The Old Man and the Sea.... the sharks came in in that novel, as well.
(2) old Fleece's sermon, his that's Christianity speech:
"Your waraciousness, fellow-critters, I don't blame ye s much for, dat is nature, and can't be helped; but to gobern dat wicked nature, dat is de pint. You is sharks, sartin; but if you gobern de shark in you..."
There is no expectation that sharks are going to govern their natures. Man has a natural nature, too. What makes man different from sharks? How well can he govern that nature? As Stubb's put it, "It's a ticklish business, but must be done, or else it's no go."
I so want for Ahab--the Ahab who is still in contact with his soul---to succeed...although I'm not sure how to define success for him.
Ch 61 starts oddly for this book, normally for a normal book, with the Ishmael telling us how he was falling asleep in the foretop while on lookout duty. Then the whale is sighted and Ishmael loses sight of himself--it's not clear if he's in Stubb's boat at the kill, or what role he played during the flensing. Very odd.
Roger wrote: "Ch 61 starts oddly for this book, normally for a normal book, with the Ishmael telling us how he was falling asleep in the foretop while on lookout duty. Then the whale is sighted and Ishmael lose..."
I re-browsed that chapter. I was difficult to determine which boat Ishmael was in. He WAS in one of the boats..."we swiftly but silentl padded along." I would guess Stubb's... just because we hear so much more of Stubb's voice...but we hear other character's voices, too.
The sleepiness. Made me think back to an earlier chapter in which Ishmael said the look outs had two hour tours of duty. Maybe because it DID get boring up there looking out over empty ocean. Sharp eyes needed.
I re-browsed that chapter. I was difficult to determine which boat Ishmael was in. He WAS in one of the boats..."we swiftly but silentl padded along." I would guess Stubb's... just because we hear so much more of Stubb's voice...but we hear other character's voices, too.
The sleepiness. Made me think back to an earlier chapter in which Ishmael said the look outs had two hour tours of duty. Maybe because it DID get boring up there looking out over empty ocean. Sharp eyes needed.
Thomas wrote: He is unreliable from the the very first line of the first chapter. But all narrators are unreliable to some degree. I don't think reliability is really a requirement for a story teller anyway -- ..."It is not required for a story teller to be reliable but if one agrees that the narrator is an unreliable narrator it does call into question what they are imparting to the reader.
The reliability or unreliability of the narrator can affect the light in which the reader takes the story which is being told to them.
For when dealing with an unreliable narrator one must question than if the story they are telling truly reflect the events as they happened, or if the version the reader is given is being skewed by the precipitations, biases, prejudices, mental state, experiences of the narrator.
Which than creates to different possible stories, the story as the narrator tells it and the story as it really happened.
Silver wrote: "Thomas wrote: He is unreliable from the the very first line of the first chapter. But all narrators are unreliable to some degree. I don't think reliability is really a requirement for a story tell..."I see what you're saying, Silver, but is there really such a thing as a totally objective narrator? Doesn't every narrator betray his or her biases and prejudices in some way? I think this is especially true when an author chooses to write in first person; in fact that may be why an author writes in first person.
You're right about there being different possible stories, but in a work of fiction how does one tell which story "really happened"?
Thomas wrote: "I see what you're saying, Silver, but is there really such a thing as a totally objective narrator? Doesn't every narrator betray his or her biases and prejudices in some way?."I do agree that I do not know if I have encountered yet a truly reliable 1st person narrator, but there are some who may be given to be more reliable than others.
While any narrator will have their one subjective view. A narrator who seems to be mentally stable, and how may be more of an outside observer than personally/emotionally invested in the events, or one that has not given any evidence of being dishonest in any way may lend themselves to give a more truer account of events.
For example, if this story was being told by Ahab instead of Ishmael then we would really have to question just what he was telling us and could not truly believe anything.
Adelle wrote: "Post 26Bill wrote:regarding Ahab turning into a pyramid in Stubb's dream I had totally forgotten that Abah turned into a pyramid in the dream.
I wonder what that means."
Reminds one of Moy Dick's pyramidal hump. Is Ahab becoming The white whale?
Silver wrote: "I do agree that I do not know if I have encountered yet a truly reliable 1st person narrator, but there are some who may be given to be more reliable than others. "I do agree with you here.
There is the narrator who is unreliable inadvertently -- making errors that the astute reader will identify but the author didn't.
There is the narrator who is unreliable in an obvious way, whose prejudices or whose guesswork about other people is obvious to any reasonably intelligent reader.
Ten there is the narrator who appears reliable, but whom the author sets up as unreliable in a way that the reader only gradually tumbles to.
Silver wrote: "For example, if this story was being told by Ahab instead of Ishmael then we would really have to question just what he was telling us and could not truly believe anything.
Do you think that Ahab would out-and-out lie, or do you say that because you think Ahab isn't stable enough to know what's true and what's not true? I'm just curious.
Do you think that Ahab would out-and-out lie, or do you say that because you think Ahab isn't stable enough to know what's true and what's not true? I'm just curious.
Adelle wrote: "Do you think that Ahab would out-and-out lie, or do you say that because you think Ahab isn't stable enough to know what's true and what's not true? I'm just curious. ."That's a cool question! I have to suspect that he would, if not lie outright, at least conceal a lot, as I suspect that he concealed from the ship owners and the crew his real intention for this voyage.
Adelle wrote: Do you think that Ahab would out-and-out lie, or do you say that because you think Ahab isn't stable enough to know what's true and what's not true? I'm just curious. ."I do not think he would intentionally lie, but I think that his own vision of truth would deviate from actual reality, as in the example of his seeming to believe that a whale caused him malicious, intentional offence which of course we know is highly improbable.
So I do think that he is just so unstable and deluded with his need for vengeance that he does live in a world of his own.
Everyman wrote: That's a cool question! I have to suspect that he would, if not lie outright, at least conceal a lot, as I suspect that he concealed from the ship owners and the crew his real intention for this voyage."That is a very good point. As he quite literally concealed himself from the crew until the point in which it was too late for them to have a sudden change in heart about the voyage.
I had not before considered that it may have been with the actual intent of not letting the know what they were getting into ahead of time.
Laurele wrote: "Reminds one of MoBy Dick's pyramidal hump. Is Ahab becoming The white whale?
?? I'm bewildered. (long i sound, 'cuz that's the way I like it) But I feel there's SOMETHING. There was another pyramid siting in Chapter 65. "such a solid pyramid of fat."
Maybe Melville was a Freemason. Pause. I say that rather factitiously, but, really, there are an inordinate number of pyramids mentioned in Moby Dick...and we're but halfway through.
From wikipedia: Freemasonry uses the metaphors of operative stonemasons' tools and implements, against the allegorical backdrop of the building of King Solomon's Temple, to convey what has been described by both Masons and critics as "a system of morality veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols."[3][4]
Wasn't Solomon mentioned in Moby Dick, too? I can't recall, but it seems familiar. Allegory? Check. Symbols? Check. Morality? Most likely.
I'm frankly well puzzled.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry
?? I'm bewildered. (long i sound, 'cuz that's the way I like it) But I feel there's SOMETHING. There was another pyramid siting in Chapter 65. "such a solid pyramid of fat."
Maybe Melville was a Freemason. Pause. I say that rather factitiously, but, really, there are an inordinate number of pyramids mentioned in Moby Dick...and we're but halfway through.
From wikipedia: Freemasonry uses the metaphors of operative stonemasons' tools and implements, against the allegorical backdrop of the building of King Solomon's Temple, to convey what has been described by both Masons and critics as "a system of morality veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols."[3][4]
Wasn't Solomon mentioned in Moby Dick, too? I can't recall, but it seems familiar. Allegory? Check. Symbols? Check. Morality? Most likely.
I'm frankly well puzzled.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry
Adelle wrote: Wasn't Solomon mentioned in Moby Dick, too? I can't recall, but it seems familiar. Allegory? Check. Symbols? Check. Morality? Most likely. ..."Yes Solomon is mentioned, I think maybe more than once, but I just read a reference to him at the end of chapter 52 "The Albatross"
Were this world an endless plain, and by sailing eastward we could for ever reach new distances, and discover sights more sweet and strange than any Cyclades or Islands of King Solomon, then there were promise in the voyage. But in pursuit of those far mysteries we dream of, or in tormented chase of the demon phantom that, some time or other, swims before all human hearts; while chasing such over this round globe, they either lead us on in barren mazes or midway leave us whelmed.
Silver wrote: "Yes, Solomon is mentioned, I think ma..."
Ah, yes, thank you, Silver. That's it.
Well. ? Maybe it means nothing.
For what it's worth, wikipedia has Solomon "ultimately as a king whose sin, including idolatry and turning away from God, leads to the kingdom being torn in two" ... according to the Christians.
but that according to the Islamists, it wasn't true...they held that Solomon did NOT turn away from God.
Mmmm.
Ah, yes, thank you, Silver. That's it.
Well. ? Maybe it means nothing.
For what it's worth, wikipedia has Solomon "ultimately as a king whose sin, including idolatry and turning away from God, leads to the kingdom being torn in two" ... according to the Christians.
but that according to the Islamists, it wasn't true...they held that Solomon did NOT turn away from God.
Mmmm.
Adelle wrote: "Silver wrote: "Yes, Solomon is mentioned, I think ma..."Ah, yes, thank you, Silver. That's it.
Well. ? Maybe it means nothing.
For what it's worth, wikipedia has Solomon "ultima..."
I was curious so I did some research but could find no reference supporting that Melville was himself involved with the Freemasons, he does draw upon Freemason like imagery within the story.
In my research I did find in one of the later chapters he actually makes a direct reference/mention to Freemasons in the book.
So it could be that it does intentionally allude to Freemasonry symbolism because it was very popular during the time in which he was writing, the same way he references the Bible, and tribal beliefs.
Silver wrote: "In my research I did find in one of the later chapters he actually makes a direct reference/mention to Freemasons in the book.
Hey, maybe something there then. Thanks for doing the research.
Eyes are tired, brain tired. I must retire.
Hey, maybe something there then. Thanks for doing the research.
Eyes are tired, brain tired. I must retire.
Silver wrote: "Thomas wrote: He is unreliable from the the very first line of the first chapter. But all narrators are unreliable to some degree. I don't think reliability is really a requirement for a story tell..."As I see it we only have the story as the narrator tells it (unreliable or not) or am I thinking too literally here?
Someone brought up the divided nature of man in an earlier post (I'm sorry but I couldn't find it when I looked for it again)and that is ever a fascinating theme to write on. The divided nature of man carries the theme of good vs. evil to a larger degree but are we seeing this in only Ahab? Or in others?
Evalyn wrote: "As I see it we only have the story as the narrator tells it (unreliable or not) or am I thinking too literally here? .."To an extent that is true, as the reader is only given Ishmael's account of what happened, but when dealing with first person narration, I think there is an amount of reading between the lines which can be done.
As for example if Ishmael clearly contradicts himself in something he tells the reader, than the reader can presume that things may not have happened exactly the way he perceives it.
Susanna wrote: "Bill wrote: "Here in Ishmael, right along with Ahab, isn't Melville deliberately portraying another, different, but perhaps equally intense obsession with the Whale?"Ishmael is obsessed with ca..."
That is a good point. I think the Ishmael's obsession with whales can be seen as a "healthy" or "normal" obsession, no different than a person who may be a hobbyist, or collector.
He is expressing his growing obsession for whales in what is a positive, and non-destructive way. He is further enhance his knowledge through his obsession as well as educating others by sharing his knowledge in his account of the story.
Perhaps Melville is contrasting the different forms that obsession can taken and its different outcomes.
Ishmael's obsession is based on what seems to be his love, and admiration for the whales in which they are hunting, and in this way we can also see Ishmael having a more healthy and normal realtionship with the whale than Ahab does.
Ishmael admires and respects the animals even while he is hunting them and while the act of doing is is butting him at risk to himself.
While Ahab's obsession with the whale stems from his quest for vengeance and his wrath, and leads him to behavior that is self-destructive and endangering the lives of others as well he has come to see the whale as being in opposition to him, he has lost the proper perspective for a man in his position.
Evalyn wrote: "Someone brought up the divided nature of man in an earlier post (I'm sorry but I couldn't find it when I looked for it again)and that is ever a fascinating theme to write on. The divided nature of man carries the theme of good vs. evil to a larger degree but are we seeing this in only Ahab? Or in others?
..."
Mulled this over.
For myself, I'm only seeing it in Ahab. And the only potential evil that I'm seeing in Ahab at this point is that it seems that he is willing to risk the lives of the men serving under him, and the wherewithall of the people back in Nantuckett for a cause/reason/obsession that they wouldn't support if they were given the opportunity to approve or disapprove of Ahab's goal.
..."
Mulled this over.
For myself, I'm only seeing it in Ahab. And the only potential evil that I'm seeing in Ahab at this point is that it seems that he is willing to risk the lives of the men serving under him, and the wherewithall of the people back in Nantuckett for a cause/reason/obsession that they wouldn't support if they were given the opportunity to approve or disapprove of Ahab's goal.
Silver wrote: " he has lost the proper perspective for a man in his position...."
I totally agree ... Ahab's is NOT acting as a captain of a whaling ship SHOULD be acting. He is not fit to be the captain.
On the Ahab's obsession compared with Ishmael's deep interest/possible obsession in whales:
I think perhaps it's a reflection of who they are. Ahab has been a hunter of whales. When the delirum psychologically affects him, and he becomes obsessed, he is still a hunter of whales--though he wants Moby Dick.
Ishmael is perhaps a school teacher, or a libraian, perhaps the man at the start of the novel given to categorizing.
When something about life on a whaling ship leads to Ishmael's deepened interest in whales, if it is an obsession, it just intensifies an aspect of Ishmael that already existed: Ishmael, a describer, describes in great detail.
For myself (and obviously each of us reads the book differently) I don't get the sense the Ishmael admires the whales...What I am picking up is that he loves information.
I totally agree ... Ahab's is NOT acting as a captain of a whaling ship SHOULD be acting. He is not fit to be the captain.
On the Ahab's obsession compared with Ishmael's deep interest/possible obsession in whales:
I think perhaps it's a reflection of who they are. Ahab has been a hunter of whales. When the delirum psychologically affects him, and he becomes obsessed, he is still a hunter of whales--though he wants Moby Dick.
Ishmael is perhaps a school teacher, or a libraian, perhaps the man at the start of the novel given to categorizing.
When something about life on a whaling ship leads to Ishmael's deepened interest in whales, if it is an obsession, it just intensifies an aspect of Ishmael that already existed: Ishmael, a describer, describes in great detail.
For myself (and obviously each of us reads the book differently) I don't get the sense the Ishmael admires the whales...What I am picking up is that he loves information.
Silver wrote: "He is expressing his growing obsession for whales in what is a positive, and non-destructive way. He is further enhance his knowledge through his obsession as well as educating others by sharing his knowledge in his account of the story.
..."
Absolutely. (And from a societal point of view, greatly preferred.)
..."
Absolutely. (And from a societal point of view, greatly preferred.)
Adelle wrote: "Ishmael is perhaps a school teacher, or a libraian, perhaps the man at the start of the novel given to categorizing.."Yes I had considered the way in which Ishmael's own obsession is being expressed and taking form of who he was as a man of learning. He feels the need to further explore his own knowledge not just through experience, as I am sure is the case of professional whalers, but also through book knowledge, and scientific fact, and than feeling the compulsion to share the knowledge he learned with others by including these chapters in which he shows the reader his knowledge.
I wonder also if Melville himself is seeking to educate his readers about whales, particularly writing a time when there would not be such ready knowledge or such knowledge would not be as easily accesses and researched so the average person may not have the same basic knowledge of whales that I am sure many of the readers today would have, even if they haven't really put any time into studying whales.
Adelle wrote:For myself (and obviously each of us reads the book differently) I don't get the sense the Ishmael admires the whales...What I am picking up is that he loves information.
When he is talking about how no one properly can capture the image of a whale, and speaking of how to truly know a whale and capture its image correctly one needs to go whaling, and to truly see the animals alive and in action sounds like an expression of admiration for the animals and not just a simple interest in knowledge.
He is acknowledging how much more awesome the animals are up close and in person than seeing any painting or sketch could be.
@ Post 92 Laurele wrote: "Reminds one of Moy Dick's pyramidal hump. Is Ahab becoming The white whale?
."
I should be catching up on my reading. But here I am....going back in the book.
Chapter 31, "Queen Mab"
I hadn't known this, so it was most cool to me:
from Wikipedia:
"Queen Mab is a fairy referred to in Shakespeare's play Romeo and Juliet. She also appears in other 17th century literature, and in various guises in later poetry, drama and cinema. In the play her activity is described in a famous speech by Mercutio written in iambic pentameter, in which she is described as a miniature creature who drives her chariot into the noses and into the brains of sleeping people to compel them to experience dreams of wish-fulfillment. She would also bring the plague in some occasions. She is also described as a midwife to help sleepers 'give birth' to their dreams."
and "phiz"... It COULD refer to an ugly face. However, from FreeDictionary, one of the meanings is "a human head." Eh?
And there's this, from http://www.victorianweb.org/art/illus...
Phiz was the pseudonym (spelling?) of a Mr. Brown who did illustrations in the mid 1800s. In the Dickens' books, there were two "extra" illustrations.
Said Mr. Brown's son: "...the Frontispiece and the Title-page. "Placed here they allow him to reflect upon what he has read. Later, placed at the front of a bound copy of the novel, they also announce the main themes and concerns of the book"
Oh, nice!
Is Ahab becoming the White Whale?
I'm thinking, lol, maybe, that this dream of Stubb's speaks to obsession.
From Stubb's opening words, souls are at stake. "...when I tried to kick back, upon by soul, little man, I kicked my right leg off! And then, presto! Ahab seemed a pyramid..." (144).
maybe??? doing a couple of things here... that in kicking back, in looking for vengenance, Stubb's dream is showing him that that would make him like Ahab (the missing leg)
the pyramid. That pyramid. OK...this is very roughly worded here and even more roughly thought out...but still
Ahab's obsessed with finding the whale/or the meaning/or refusing to accept what has happened to him. [??] There's that pyramid on the tail end of Moby Dick.
Mmm...as always..more than one interpretation....you know how, when sitting at his desk and studying his charts,
till it almost seemed that while he himself was marking out lines and courses on the wrinkled charts, some invisible pencil was also tracing lines and courses upon the deeply marked chart of his forehead" (214).
..so Ahab is chasing the pyramid/mystery/whale...and now Ahab shows up as a pyramid in Stubb's dream....that's all that's really left of Ahab...he's been consumed/taken over by his obsession. There's some Bible verse..."As a man thinketh, so shall he become." (mmm, pretty close quote, I think.)
In his dream, Stubb is "battering away at the pyramid"... Stubb's sub-conscious is warning him against vengence/or maybe against obsession...
"the badger-haired merman, with a hump on his back...'What are you 'bout?'"
I really like that. don't particulary understand it, but I really, really like it.
badger's hair is black and white. so maybe representing man's two natures...or Nature/vs Soul ??? the merman is from the sea... and the sea is where the answers are found....so the merman has wisdom, and he's asking Stubb to stop and THINK. "What are you 'bout?"
Are you, Stubb, going to let vengence/obsession take over your life?
The hump... a linkage of some sort to Moby Dick. Maybe Stubb's sub-conscious is trying to tell him, warn him, that Ahab is obsessed with Moby Dick. Learn from Ahab's example. Stubb was made a wise man through having been kicked by Ahab. "on no account kick back"
OR, lol, always an "or"
maybe Ahab's turning into a pyramid, is saying something along the lines the the answers to our quest for meaning/our answers to mystery, are to be found within ourselves?
?????
."
I should be catching up on my reading. But here I am....going back in the book.
Chapter 31, "Queen Mab"
I hadn't known this, so it was most cool to me:
from Wikipedia:
"Queen Mab is a fairy referred to in Shakespeare's play Romeo and Juliet. She also appears in other 17th century literature, and in various guises in later poetry, drama and cinema. In the play her activity is described in a famous speech by Mercutio written in iambic pentameter, in which she is described as a miniature creature who drives her chariot into the noses and into the brains of sleeping people to compel them to experience dreams of wish-fulfillment. She would also bring the plague in some occasions. She is also described as a midwife to help sleepers 'give birth' to their dreams."
and "phiz"... It COULD refer to an ugly face. However, from FreeDictionary, one of the meanings is "a human head." Eh?
And there's this, from http://www.victorianweb.org/art/illus...
Phiz was the pseudonym (spelling?) of a Mr. Brown who did illustrations in the mid 1800s. In the Dickens' books, there were two "extra" illustrations.
Said Mr. Brown's son: "...the Frontispiece and the Title-page. "Placed here they allow him to reflect upon what he has read. Later, placed at the front of a bound copy of the novel, they also announce the main themes and concerns of the book"
Oh, nice!
Is Ahab becoming the White Whale?
I'm thinking, lol, maybe, that this dream of Stubb's speaks to obsession.
From Stubb's opening words, souls are at stake. "...when I tried to kick back, upon by soul, little man, I kicked my right leg off! And then, presto! Ahab seemed a pyramid..." (144).
maybe??? doing a couple of things here... that in kicking back, in looking for vengenance, Stubb's dream is showing him that that would make him like Ahab (the missing leg)
the pyramid. That pyramid. OK...this is very roughly worded here and even more roughly thought out...but still
Ahab's obsessed with finding the whale/or the meaning/or refusing to accept what has happened to him. [??] There's that pyramid on the tail end of Moby Dick.
Mmm...as always..more than one interpretation....you know how, when sitting at his desk and studying his charts,
till it almost seemed that while he himself was marking out lines and courses on the wrinkled charts, some invisible pencil was also tracing lines and courses upon the deeply marked chart of his forehead" (214).
..so Ahab is chasing the pyramid/mystery/whale...and now Ahab shows up as a pyramid in Stubb's dream....that's all that's really left of Ahab...he's been consumed/taken over by his obsession. There's some Bible verse..."As a man thinketh, so shall he become." (mmm, pretty close quote, I think.)
In his dream, Stubb is "battering away at the pyramid"... Stubb's sub-conscious is warning him against vengence/or maybe against obsession...
"the badger-haired merman, with a hump on his back...'What are you 'bout?'"
I really like that. don't particulary understand it, but I really, really like it.
badger's hair is black and white. so maybe representing man's two natures...or Nature/vs Soul ??? the merman is from the sea... and the sea is where the answers are found....so the merman has wisdom, and he's asking Stubb to stop and THINK. "What are you 'bout?"
Are you, Stubb, going to let vengence/obsession take over your life?
The hump... a linkage of some sort to Moby Dick. Maybe Stubb's sub-conscious is trying to tell him, warn him, that Ahab is obsessed with Moby Dick. Learn from Ahab's example. Stubb was made a wise man through having been kicked by Ahab. "on no account kick back"
OR, lol, always an "or"
maybe Ahab's turning into a pyramid, is saying something along the lines the the answers to our quest for meaning/our answers to mystery, are to be found within ourselves?
?????
I don't think it's that Ishmael is fascinated with whales, it's that Melville is. The ostensible narrator fades out and the omniscient author takes his place. I think Melville was fascinated with the grandeur and mystery of whales, and with the epic and somewhat horrifying process of hunting them, and wanted to share it with us. I don't mind--it is fascinating, and it provides some restful interludes in a ponderous story.
Silver wrote: "I was curious so I did some research but could find no reference supporting that Melville was himself involved with the Freemasons, he does draw upon Freemason like imagery within the story. "He wouldn't have had to be a Freemason to know a great deal about at least the public side of Freemasonry symbolism -- it was all around. Many of the Founders were Freemasons, and while Masonry went into a bit of a brief lull around 1830, by the time Melville was writing Moby Dick it was coming back strongly. But Melville was apparently not impressed with it: he wrote in a letter to Hawthorne, in 1851, right around the time of the publication of Moby Dick, "We incline to think that the Problem of the Universe is like the Freemason's mighty secret, so terrible to all children. It turns out, at last, to consist in a triangle, a mallet, and an apron, -- nothing more! "
When your vengeance is against another person, I think that is probably true. I'm less sure about it if the vengeance is against an inanimate object -- if a rock from a wall falls on you, do you get peace by tearing down the whole wall in retaliation?"
Xerxes had the Hellespont flogged for attempting to thwart his crossing in 480 BC.