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Jude the Obscure
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Jude the Obscure: Week 3 - Part Third
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Maybe a little, I am. ;-) I also realize that we have a long way to go with the novel, and I would offer that there's much to discover and consider associated with Sue, Arabella, Phillotson, and Jude, as well as the age they live in. I am willing to patiently bide my time and see how the conversations go.
Bill wrote: So he propagates what he is fighting against.Except that he has his protagonist marry Arabella and she is not treated as a 'fallen woman', as many novelists would have done. She is there as an antitheses to Sue - two different types of Victorian women who, despite their 'free' attitudes towards sex are able to live respectable, independent lives. It is the general interpretation of women both as whores and angels on the hearth that he is struggling against, countering. He is presenting an alternative - his women here are neither fallen nor angels. Countrywoman Arabella, for instance, is very different to the countrywoman Tess of his previous novel, who Hardy treats as the conventional 'fallen woman', dealing with her as the Victorians would have done in real life but writing in the pathos to make his point. There is no pathos in Arabella - she is up front and out there, even throwing pig's penises about!
But as Chris says, I think it is a bit early for us to be summing up the overall sexual connotations of the novel and the irony conveyed. Both Arabella and Sue have a long way to go yet:).
Christopher wrote: "Whoa, whoa! I don't know if I could even get remotely close to accepting that Arabella has ruined Jude's life! I think "you have some 'splaining to do" here, Bill. ;-)"
Since he can't get divorced, and it's obvious she has no interest in living with him, he is now, until her death, permanently prevented from getting married to a women who will be a real wife to him, cannot father a legitimate child, and if he wants to have an intimate relation with a woman must do it "in sin" and in peril of his soul. If you don't call that ruination, it seems to come pretty darn close.
Christopher wrote: "I would offer that there's much to discover and consider associated with Sue, Arabella, Phillotson, and Jude, as well as the age they live in. "It seems to me, Chris, that in your discussion with Bill you're basing your views at least in part not just on what we have read so far, but on where you know the novel is going to go. Not that you have provided any spoilers, not at all, you've been very careful not to, but when you say "I guess we'll have to wait and see how it plays out, and see if your point changes," and "there's much to discover and consider associated with Sue, Arabella, Phillotson, and Jude, as well as the age they live in," it seems to me to suggest pretty strongly that you are basing your current views of these characters not only more than the first three books. Which is not surprising since you know the book well and, I believe, have read it several times at least.
But I wonder if you would post the same way if, like Bill, you were reading the novel for the first time and had only read up to this point in the book.
This is not intended to be critical of you views, which further reading into the book may well justify. But I suggest that you may need to be a bit more patient with people who are meeting these characters for the first time and have to base their views of the characters and events only on what has been revealed to this point.
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That is precisely right, Madge! Hardy gives us his Arabella as an aggressive and confident young woman who knows what she wants and sets out to get it. As I've said before, she could give two figs for the opinions or judgments of the society around her or the church.
I also really want to take everyone back to a quote that Madge gave us early on in the discussion of the book--it really is important from the perspective of authorial intent from Hardy's viewpoint--
"The two swore that every other time of their lives till death took them, they would assuredly believe, feel, and desire precisely as they had believed, felt, and desired during the preceding weeks. What was as remarkable as the undertaking itself was the fact that nobody seemed at all surprised at what they swore."Now keep this prefatory and somewhat ironic discourse on marriage in mind as we move forward in the novel.
I want to make it abundantly clear that I am not advocating any particular position here, I am simply trying to dig into what Hardy offers us in the novel and help bring to the surface some of the issues that he was concerned with. I honestly think you'll find that there is a continuum that tracks throughout Jude the Obscure, and that Arabella and Sue will illustrate different points on that continuum.
Everyman wrote: Since he can't get divorced....in peril of his soulYou are assuming here that Jude accepts these Victorian mores but so far there is no evidence that he does. From the text we learn that he would like to live with Sue and is very disappointed that she is marrying Phillotson. He does not appear to care a jot about the peril of his soul. Chapter III:1 is headed, significantly, 'For there was no other girl O bridegroom, like her'. Before she announced her intention to marry Phillotson Jude entertained loving, sexual thoughts of her. 'Then a wave of warmth came over him as he thought how near he now stood to the bright-eyed vivacious girl with the broad forehead and pile of dark hair above it..' Later, despite his 'matrimonial entanglement' he is burning to kiss her:-
'She had come forward prettily, but Jude felt that she had hardly expected him to kiss her, as he was burning to do, under other colours than those of cousinship. He could not perceive the least sign that Sue regarded him as a lover, or ever would do so, now that she knew the worst of him, even if he had the right to behave as one; and this helped on his growing resolve to tell her of his matrimonial entanglement, which he had put off doing from time to time in sheer dread of losing the bliss of her company.'
Jude is thinking the unthinkable, not bowing down to Victorian mores.
There was also the possibility of a divorce at this time (from 1858) on the grounds of adultery, which perhaps he was contemplating, even if Sue wasn't. Jude's problem is not that he fears society's mores but that Sue's reputation and career are at risk, as we learn from Chapters III:3 & 4.
Chris: In addition to the ironic paragraph about marriage you quote above I would remind folks of something I quoted in the Background info on Women Sexuality. In Daily Life in Victorian England Sally Mitchell wrote: 'The average twentieth-century reader is apt to miss the passages which so incensed the late Victorians because Hardy dealt with delicate matters obliquely'. We have been dealing with a lot of obliqueness here:).
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Not only is Jude "disappointed" that she is marrying Phillotson, but he is devastated!
And with respect to divorce--
The Matrimonial Causes Act of 1857 allowed that Sue could have divorced Phillotson upon providing evidence of her husband's incestuous adultery, or bigamy with adultery, or rape, or sodomy or bestiality, or adultery with profound cruelty. Even the later 1878 amendments would have only allowed a divorce on the additional grounds of her proving a severe aggravated assault. In other words, from Sue's perspective (or, Jude's perspective), neither incompatibility or mental cruelty would have worked to her favor.
I was thinking of Jude getting a divorce from Arabella on the grounds of adultery Chris - didn't she go to Australia with another fellow?(Edited after Chris posted below.)
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And that would work too, Madge.
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This is so true! I really do think it is so very hard, or at least quite difficult, for all of us to place this novel in its proper context; largely because the social and cultural mores have changed ever so much from Hardy's time to the present. What was clearly shocking then, is really considered quite blasé these days. At least this is my humble opinion.
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(Edited after Chris posted below.)"
Yes, she did, as we shall see. Jude is still married in the context of all of his doings with Susanna Florence Mary Bridehead. Very, very good point!
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I think this is true only if one accepts the role and rule of the church in that time. Clearly, from Jude's perspective (i.e., his interest in Susanna), he does not, does he? In fact, I'd maintain that his heart and soul are 'quickened' with his interest is Sue. The man feels absolutely alive and invigorated because of his his love interest in Sue. Wouldn't you agree?
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And I can't say that I disagree with your assessment at all, Everyman. I think you're probably right. I am terribly impatient for everyone to reach the real 'meat' of the tale. I have, I believe, copped to this weakness in my moderation and commenting here already. I am honestly doing the best that I can. Your point is very well taken, and I appreciate and respect the criticism. I shall do better.
Sue represents the break away from Marygreen doesn't she - she is pursuing a career, he wants to pursue one. She is the 'new woman', he wants to be a new man. Also, Jude's willingness to put his soul in peril may be an indication of a break away from his previous religious convictions, his disenchantment with Pusey et al - there are several references to Pusey in Jude. It is probably significant too, that as well as his flirtation with the Oxford Movement (see Background info), Pusey was involved in the reform of the marriage laws. More seriously, he was a believer in transubstantiatian and it was a sermon supporting this which got him suspended from the CofE and caused a lot of his supporters to leave the OM. (Belief in Transubstantiation is a major doctrinal difference between catholicism and CofE, between High Church and Low Church.) Pusey also admired and wrote about the mystics - another interest of Hardy's. In Chapter I:3 we learn that when the young Jude was looking over the horizon to Christminster he was 'sometimes to be rewarded by the sight of a dome or spire, at other times by a little smoke, which in his estimate had some of the mysticism of incense.'http://web.mac.com/brian.douglas/Angl...
Christopher wrote: "Denae wrote-- "He didn't really manage to avoid the Madonna/Whore thing"And I would maintain that he wants to put that right out there front and center. Wouldn't you agree? In other words, wom..."
OK, I know I'm behind here & haven't had a chance to fully read my way through, but I meant this in the sense of the classic idea that a woman is seen as one or the other, or is at least considered to behave like one or the other with very little middle ground. Hardy does a better job of blurring the lines, but it still seems like Sue & Arabella have been placed in these roles.
Yes they have Denae but IMO for the purpose of debunking these ideas, not to support them.
Christopher wrote: "I think this is true only if one accepts the role and rule of the church in that time. Clearly, from Jude's perspective (i.e., his interest in Susanna), he does not, does he?"Up to this point in the book, I would say he's conflicted -- it's not an easy either/or. After all, he was studying for years to be a clergyman, and while he has had to give that dream up for the time being because of the rejection at the university, Hardy still has the chance later in the book, if he chooses to, to provide Jude with another path to that general goal. So while his infatuation with Sue has temporarily overridden his traditional sense of morality, at this point I don't think we can predict which aspect of his character (if either) will eventually be the one to determine his lot.
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You are right, I think. I don't know that I was saying that it was an 'either/or', but was more trying to articulate that clearly Jude's desire is to marry Sue and live with her 'traditionally'.
Meanwile there does not seem to be any hint in the text that these lustful thoughts he has about Sue are a worry to him. The worries all seem to be on Sue's side which, again, was par for the course. Victorian men could get away with much more 'sin' than women without their lives or their careers being affected - except that STDs, especially syphilis, were a risk.There is some interesting information on Victorian attitudes towards sex and gender on this reliable website from the renowned Victoria & Albert Museum, London:-
http://www.vam.ac.uk/collections/peri...
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Very good point!
Oops you caught me in the middle of editing again Chris!:)
Bill wrote: My whole point is I don't really think Hardy is so involved in this struggle in Jude. Else he would not give all those St.Augustiners such good ammo with Arabella.(1) The St Augustiners would not have expected/wanted Arabella to be such an independent, feisty woman Bill and we are only on Part Three of the novel!
(2) It was Hardy's struggle with these ideas and his radical approach to his female characters in Jude which caused such a furore that he gave up writing novels, so he must be pretty involved. If his female characters had conformed to the Victorian ideal I don't think a Bishop would have bothered to publicly burn the book.
You are, of course, right to point out that Sue and Arabella represent a thesis and anti-thesis. Giving his critics 'ammo' was what he was about.
ROFL. I won't argue with you Bill except to say that dressing/undressing was not as easy in Victorian times and those tight trousers might have proved difficult to pull down when out and about. I remember wearing all in one cat suits and finding it difficult to wee.:D:D.
You just do not get the point though Bill. Of course she is ammo as a 'loose woman' but Hardy counteracts that by making her an independent woman with a decent trade, able to care for their child. Typical Victorian writers would have her end up in the workhouse, or dead, as a punishment for her sins. Halfway through a typical book we would have been seeing her denouement, her gradual decline into poverty and worse.
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And, in fact, Arabella flourishes! Whether one likes Arabella Donn Fawley, or not, one can't help but admire her toughness and adaptability. In some respects she's quite fearless, she faces whatever adversity comes her way and makes a good go of it. I've always thought of Arabella as a real "survivor".
Yes, I love Arabella the barmaid in Chapter III:8 and particularly like this exchange with Mr Cockman:-'She served the liqueur from one of the lovely bottles and striking a match held it to his cigarette with ministering archness while he
whiffed.
"Well, have you heard from your husband lately, my dear?" he asked.
"Not a sound," said she.
"Where is he?"
"I left him in Australia; and I suppose he's there still."
Jude's eyes grew rounder.
"What made you part from him?"
"Don't you ask questions, and you won't hear lies."
A survivor indeed! No workhouse for Bella. I was reminded of this song:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tth-8w...
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LOL! You crack me up, Bill! But I have to say that I surely believe that Mr. Hardy would probably vehemently disagree with this off-hand comment of yours. ;-)
Christopher wrote: In some respects she's quite fearless, she faces whatever adversity comes her way and makes a good go of it. I've always thought of Arabella as a real "survivor". .."Yes survivor is exactly what I think of when I think of Arabella, and though I have disregard with some of the things she has done, or the way in which she chose to go about doing them, I cannot bring myself to altogether dislike her. She is in her way such a strong woman and though she does not have the intellectual/philosophical rebellion against the suppression and prejudices of society as Sue has, Arabealla does look the world in the eye, and she refuses to become a victim of it, or her circumstances. She knows what the world expects of her, and what needs to be done to live in it, and though she does not necessarily openly rebel against it, but in her own way she is more conventional than Sue is, at the same time she refuses to submit herself to it.
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No, Bill, I really don't think Arabella's particularly unusual at all, and that's precisely why Hardy includes her in the plot. I'd wager that Hardy grew up knowing or at least being aware of young women just like Arabella. They would have worked on the farms, in the shops or in the pubs, or as servants for the more wealthy landowners, etc.
Hardy is trying to make people aware of the double-standards that existed. Of course, he recognized that many Victorian authors continued to write stories with the fallen women, which contributed to propping up and maintaining the fiction (the "lie" as you call it). God forbid anyone write a story where a woman could have sex out of wedlock, maintain her independence from men, seek a divorce, and even succeed at life--it just offended Victorian sensibilities.
What was it Hardy said about Tess? Something like--
"I am attempting to destroy the 'English doll' in fiction!"
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Jude did what he thought was the right and honorable thing to do, he married Arabella. Then she fesses up that she's not pregnant and leaves, and Jude now goes on with his life. Right? We all make bad decisions, and then we dust ourselves off and move forward. To a large degree, this is what Jude has done. In fact, he's pretty much moved completely past Arabella; and he's now thoroughly besotted with Sue.
Bill, I also want you to know that I am not an apologist for Arabella whatsoever, nor for Sue, nor for Jude. These are all fundamentally flawed characters, just as all of us are in real life--we're human. Arabella, Sue, and Jude are complicated, and I frankly don't have them completely figured out myself. Arabella has some real issues, to be sure, but I don't know that I could ever say that she was the root of all of Jude's woes.
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"I am attempting to destroy the 'English doll' in fiction!"
.."
I'm looking forward to reading Tess..since its his most popu..."
Yes, Bill, you must read "Tess" at some point. Extraordinarily powerful book though. For me it touches upon every emotion. Keep a box of kleenex handy too. ;-) Another Hardy novel that hits me hard is his The Return of the Native. Personally, as engaged and enthusiastic as you've been with "Jude", I highly recommend both of them. They're keepers, Bill!
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I am becoming a Billian too!
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There's some precious amount of irony in the notion of our stonecutter/mason Jude as a marble statue too, isn't there? ;-)
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I think that's exactly what it'd look like; and maybe both arms thrust up into the air--almost pleading with the 'Big Guy'!
Did you ever think about this--
Jude the Obscure = Jobkind of interesting, isn't it?
Christopher wrote: "And, in fact, Arabella flourishes! Whether one likes Arabella Donn Fawley, or not, one can't help but admire her toughness and adaptability. In some respects she's quite fearless, she faces whatever adversity comes her way and makes a good go of it. I've always thought of Arabella as a real "survivor". "I'm finding this hard to agree with, at least if you mean "survivor" in a good way, as you seem to. So far all she has done is fake a pregnancy to get into a marriage she almost immediately leaves, disappear from the book or a lengthy time, then show back up as a barmaid with a second failed marriage behind her, now a bigamist. After one night together, she fails to keep her true husband with her, not that she seems to want to. She has two husbands but at the moment is with neither, just a barmaid in a not very high class bar.
I suppose in one sense that's surviving, but it doesn't seem that she's particularly happy with her life, nor does she have I think the sort of life she dreamed of back when she threw the pig's pizzle at Jude.
What in all this do you see as admirable or as fhourishing?
Christopher wrote: "But to your point--first, for the sake of discussion let us accept that Jude is on some "godly trajectory"; if this is the case, then why is it Arabella's fault that he is knocked off course? Aren't we responsible for our own decisions? "Not at all, at least if you ask Hardy. I believe that Hardy's books are filled with people whose decisions are largely made for m by fate, not by their own free will -- in fact, I see that as one of Hardy's central themes. We think we have free will, we like to believe that we are responsible for the decisions we make, but in reality I believe he agrees most closely with Gloucester in King Lear:
"As flies to wanton boys, are we to the gods, —
They kill us for their sport."
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I suppose in one sense that's surviving, but it doesn't seem that she's particularly happy with her life, nor does she have I think the sort of life she dreamed of back when she threw the pig's pizzle at Jude.
What in all this do you see as admirable or as flourishing?"
Well, put that way...
I guess I don't see her as unhappy, Everyman. She is just being herself--she's surviving. She doesn't appear, at least to me, to be morose, consumed with guilt, nor does she appear to be looking back. Let's face it, Arabella is atypical in that she's definitely done a bunch of fairly reprehensible things to those around her; and she certainly not possessed of the intellectual curiosity of a Jude, Sue, or even Phillotson. What Arabella is, in my opinion, is a survivor without the pity-party. She is, as she has shown time and again, perfectly capable of taking care of herself and advancing her own agenda (keeping a roof over her head, beer money, new hair extensions, etc.). That is all I was trying to say, Everyman.
Christopher wrote: "I guess I don't see her as unhappy, Everyman."I don't see her as unhappy in her own mind, either, though I don't think it's a lasting kind of happiness, being a barmaid with two deserted husbands behind you and no real future to look forward to.
But of course, it's possible to say also that Jude and Sue are surviving, isn't it? They're trying to make the best of what the fates have put on the table before them.
But Arabella flourishing, which was the term you used? Do you really consider that life flourishing?
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"As flies to wanton boys, are we to the gods, —
They kill us for their sport.""
My point exactly! Therefore, it cannot be Arabella's fault, can it? Of course 'Fate' is certainly a big part of Hardy's message in his novels, as Hardy states at the conclusion of Tess too, but my point here was that Jude acted consistently with his "godly trajectory" by marrying Arabella. Right? It was the proper and honorable thing to do. Arabella is now gone, Jude has moved on to something different--Susanna. So, if any thing is to blame for Jude's lot it is Fate, and not Arabella.
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Okay, let me take one more stab at this. By "flourishing" my meaning was thus--
Arabella, as we all know, is a coarse, earthy peasant girl, daughter of a pig farmer. She could give two fiddles for what people think of her, but by golly she's going make sure that she keeps herself on the right side of the grass. She doesn't care a jot for education (remember her throwing Jude's book), she's got 'street-smarts' and she knows how to use 'em, including her body. She's willing to emigrate for a new beginning. She is not conflicted at all about her approach to life or the techniques she uses to get herself ahead. This woman is 'lusty' and full of 'Life' and she likes it. That's what I meant by flourishing. Now mind you, Everyman, these are nothing more than my own impressions based upon my own interpretations of Arabella from the text.
Christopher wrote: "Everyman wrote-- "But Arabella flourishing, which was the term you used? Do you really consider that life flourishing?"Okay, let me take one more stab at this. By "flourishing" my meaning was t..."
Okay, I can agree with most of that. Lusty she is indeed. She claims to be happy. But I get a sense that she is whistling by the graveyard. There doesn't seem to be much ahead for her when her looks and body start to go. I see her, at this point, as being in a sad place but not yet recognizing it.
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Oh, I completely agree with you. And unless she's found her rich 'sugar-daddy' she could be in real trouble down the road. I suppose that in some respects we're all just "whistling by the graveyard", aren't we? Some are just able to stave the Reaper off for longer periods and in better style. Well put, Everyman.
I was being, at that moment, Madge's vision of a St. Augustinian. I'm a Billian usually, which is something completely different.LOL. I think I prefer the Billian.
As for Jude's 'trajectory', I am not so sure that he has one or rather that if he has it is very 'obscure'. I see Jude pretty much as a foil for the two main female characters here which is why he is so easily pushed off course by them.
Bill wrote: But is she really that unusual a character in actual Victorian life?
No she isn't, any more than she would be an unusual character at any time. It is the way Hardy deals with such characters that is unusual, not the characters themselves. He does not treat them as 'sinful' and write about their their 'redemption' or 'salvation' etc., he treats them sympathetically and tries to show that they are just ordinary people who are being judged too harshly by their society. Instead of judging such characters, he tends to judge those around them and the circumstances (the 'Fates') in which they all find themselves.
I can't agree that Arabella is 'whistling in the graveyard' - we see no signs of that yet and by projecting this onto her now we would be taking a moralistic Victorian view. She is still happy and independent when we are half way through the novel, no sign of a decline. If anything, she has improved upon her earlier life as a village girl dealing with pigs: '[Jude] observed that her hands were smaller and whiter than when he had lived with her, and that on the hand which pulled the engine she wore an ornamental ring set with what seemed to be real sapphires....[she said] I make a very good living, and I don't know that I want your company.' (III:9)I think we might suppose that Hardy has an end in mind for her which will not be the usual dark one that Victorian novelists invariably gave to such women. I feel he will have a much more difficult time with Sue because she is a more conflicted character than straightforward Arabella.
Geographical trivia: Aldbrickham, Chapter 9 is Hardy's name for Reading, which was then a small manufacturing town just outside of Oxford, set beside the River Thames and on the Great Western main railway line. The George Hotel in Reading might have been where Arabella had her lodgings as it is a very old inn which Hardy would have known:-http://www.nilviphotelsgroup.com/theg...
Significantly, one of Reading's famous products was Simond's beer:-
http://www.simondsfamily.me.uk/
I can't remember whether Arabella encounters any soldiers in the novel but this brewery was well known for supplying the nearby Royal Military Academy at Sandhurst. Simonds' was a pioneer of pale ale in the 1830s, including India pale ale which the company exported to the British army in India.
I find it interesting that Jude had arranged to met Sue in Alfredston, which is Wantage, and he and Arabella would have passed through that town on their way to Reading/Aldbrickham - another of Jude's diversions!
Wantage, an old market town and birthplace of Alfred the Great, was a much more upmarket place than Reading and is in the Vale of the White Horse and, perhaps significantly in relation to Sue, is the home of one of the largest communities of Anglican nuns in the world – the Community of Saint Mary the Virgin, founded in 1848 by a High Anglican vicar, William Butler.
The Vale of the White Horse is referenced several times in Hardy's novels and in many other literary works. It's origins are steeped in mystery but many legends surround it:-
http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/main/...
I mention this trivia because Hardy, the railway traveller (and High Anglican), may well have referenced these places with intent. He was writing for an increasingly well-travelled Victorian public who were reading guide books and passing through these places on their weekend excursions, often because they had been mentioned in his books. (See Background post 3.)
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It's been a crazy week here, so I've not been able to enter the discussion until now. Disclaimer: I haven't read everything yet. I, too, like Sue. I feel that she is constantly pulled between what she wants or needs with what society tells her she should be or have.
Arabella on the other hand seems to me to have no conscience. She just does what she wants no matter who it might hurt in the long run. I don't think she has a sincere bone in her body, and has no problem using anybody for something she wants or needs.
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Do you think it's possible that Sue's awareness of the world around her is due to the limitations that society put on women? Sue would have bumped into restrictions from the outset - when she wanted to be educated for example. Jude, being male, wouldn't have had that same type of response from society. I'm talking strictly gender here. I'm not taking into consideration class or status.
The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910
Books mentioned in this topic
The Return of the Native (other topics)Jude the Obscure (other topics)
Except that hasn't happened yet. Unless..."
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