Jude the Obscure: Week 3 - Part Third

[Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.), Founder]

This is the folder for our discussion and comments associated with "Part Third--At Melchester" of Thomas Hardy's Jude the Obscure. Enjoy!

[MadgeUK]

I have put some information about 'Melchester' (Chap 1:3), Wardour Castle and Fonthill Abbey (Chap 2:3) the Background & Resources thread - there are no Spoilers:).

The thing which struck me about Jude's journey to Melchester, a distance of 50 miles, is that at the commencement of the novel when he climbed a ladder to look at Christminster, he perceived it as a faraway place, possibly beyond his reach. Now, ten years later he journey to a city twice the distance away without a qualm - perhaps a sign of both his maturity and the burgeoning railway system.

[MadgeUK]

After hearing from Sue that there was a Theological College in Melchester, Jude has now joined her in what is a great cathedral city 'where worldly learning and intellectual smartness had no establishment; where the altruistic feeling that he did possess would perhaps be more highly estimated than a brilliancy which he did not'. He has left the academic life of Oxford behind to try his hand at reading Divinity. He plans to begin his ministry at the age of thirty--an age which much attracted him as being that of his exemplar when he first began to teach in Galilee'. A big ambition indeed! Turning to the West Front of the cathedral (see Background) 'he walked round. He took it as a good omen that numerous blocks of stone were lying about, which signified that the cathedral was undergoing restoration or repair to a considerable extent.' Is Jude too undergoing a restoration - an Epiphany?

When he met Sue for the first time at her Teacher's Training College in Melchester she was wearing a murrey coloured gown with a little lace collar - murrey is a contraction of mulberry so the gown would be a dark red/purple. Purple is the colour of royalty and those of high rank. It has a special place in nature and purple flowers were once considered sacred. She was wearing her hair in a 'bun' and 'had the air of a woman clipped and pruned by severe discipline'. Sue dashes his romantic hopes by telling him she plans to marry the older Phillotson! Are his new dreams shattered alrady?

[whimsicalmeerkat]

I don't particularly care for Sue. She seems callous to me. She does not seem to care what effect she has on people at the time and for the most part seems to fall back on passionately apologetic letters after the fact. I do not find her calculating in the way Arabella is, she seems much less oblivious to Jude, but she seems fairly uncaring until after she has done something wrong. To me, she lacks real sincerity. I find it interesting that Jude seems to feel the same way initially after she has wronged him. "But the next morning when he awoke he felt rather vexed with her and decided that she was rather unreasonable, not to say capricious. Then, in illustration of what he had begun to discern as one of her redeeming characteristics there came promptly a note, which she must have written almost immediately he had gone from her:" We see this played out repeatedly. Later, at her wedding Jude thinks "Possibly she would go on inflicting such pains again and again, and grieving for the sufferer again and again, in all her colossal inconsistency." I find it interesting that, while he seems to recognize this, it never changes a thing he does.

[Everyman]

Denae wrote: "I don't particularly care for Sue. ...I do not find her calculating in the way Arabella is, ."

So far, it seems that Hardy has not given us any particularly appealing women characters to relate to.

[whimsicalmeerkat]

Everyman wrote: "Denae wrote: "I don't particularly care for Sue. ...I do not find her calculating in the way Arabella is, ."

So far, it seems that Hardy has not given us any particularly appealing women character..."

I'd argue the same about the men. I've not seen anyone so far with whom I relate or find appealing.

[MadgeUK]

I think what we are seeing/reading is a very disenchanted, cynical Thomas Hardy, smarting after the bad reception that Tess received and after the many changes his editor sought for Jude. Disenchanted too with religion and disappointed in his own love life, he is IMO having a catharsis. Sue is supposed to bear some resemblance to his first wife Emma. From Wikipedia:-

'Hardy's first wife, Emma, went from being free-spirited and fairly indifferent to religion in her youth to becoming obsessively religious as she got older. Since Hardy was always highly critical of organized religion, as Emma became more and more religious, their differing views led to a great deal of tension in their marriage, and this tension was a big factor that led to their increased alienation from one another.......Emma was also very disapproving of Jude the Obscure, in part because of the book's criticisms of religion, but also because she worried that the reading public would believe that the relationship between Jude and Sue directly paralleled her strained relationship with Hardy

I also think that Arabella and Sue represent the different sides of Jude - the practicality of the stonemason against the idealism of the would-be student.

I see Sue's original independent, pagan spirit as being weighed down by Victorian mores. The description of her being 'clipped and pruned by severe discipline' metaphorically expresses the severe oppression of her individuality. When on the outing Jude likens her to 'a shepherdess' and we see in the cottage scenes, where she might have slept with Jude but did not, that Sue longs to be free but is still afraid to act, secretly longing to be liberated from her captivity. The pagan imagery is again used when 'clammy as a marine deity...her clothes clung to her like the robes upon the figures in the Parthenon friezes' she comes to Jude. Here she is represented as a classical Goddess, the antithesis of a demure Christian woman but her behaviour has severe social consequences - she again has to become the 'clipped and pruned' Victorian woman. I therefore have sympathy for her.

[Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.), Founder]

I too have sympathy for Sue. I like her character in this novel for many of the reasons that Madge has identified above. Sue continues to strike me as an intelligent young woman who is in a constant struggle to channel her independent spirit and create her own identity from that of the Fawley women of her past, as well as that of the Victorian women of her time.

Denae, above, mentions that she finds Sue somewhat insincere. IMHO, I don't think Sue is insincere. She says what she means, and she means what she says. If anything, I think she is too direct; and then she regrets the outcomes of that directness. For example, when she tells Jude not to fall in love with her; she does realize later that she has badly hurt Jude's feeling, and she writes him a note essentially telling him that it is okay if he 'loves' her.

As one reads this novel, one almost gets the feeling that this character of Hardy's is far outside the norm for a female protagonist in Victorian fiction. At least this is the case for me. I really think Hardy broke the mold when he created Sue Bridehead. She is a thoroughly modern woman, in my opinion. I personally think the character of Sue Bridehead must have been the most offensive thing about Hardy's novel to many of his readers and critics. Frankly, I think most of the reading public must have been completely unprepared for what they discovered within the character of Sue Bridehead. I want to wait a little longer before I elaborate even more on this topic, but I firmly believe that Sue is the lynch-pin to truly understanding this particular novel of Thomas Hardy.

Great comments, so far, from all of you.

[MadgeUK]

I want to wait a little longer, before I elaborate even more on this topic, but I firmly believe that Sue is the lynch-pin to truly understanding this particular novel of Thomas Hardy.

I agree Chris and very much look forward to your elaborations.

[Silver]

Denae wrote: "I don't particularly care for Sue. She seems callous to me. She does not seem to care what effect she has on people at the time and for the most part seems to fall back on passionately apologetic l..."

I find this amusing because I heard someone else state how much they hate Sue and funny thing is that I acutally really like her. I cannot say I really find anything she has done as being "wrong" or that bad, but rather at this point Jude begins to grow upon my nerves.

Sue never makes any promises to Jude, nor any declarations of having any feelings for him beyond the feelings of kinship, but Jude seems to have some expectation that becasue he likes her, she should like him back and by his own choice follows her around like a lost puppy dog when she truly does not do anything to encourage him.

[Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.), Founder]

Silver, I think you are spot-on with your observations here. I would agree completely that it is Jude's idealistic expectations that we are most aware of, and that it is almost jarring when we encounter Sue's seemingly 'cold-hearted' or 'callous' reactions/responses. I would also argue that there is a fairly profound difference between the maturity levels of Jude and Sue. It seems to me that Sue is fairly well grounded and maintains a pragmatic and realistic perspective associated with her own life and that of the world around her. Jude, god bless him, is still, in my opinion, much the naif with his head in the 'clouds', chasing from one ideal to the next.

And isn't this kind of a topsy-turvy situation that Hardy has created? Normally (and I use "normally" loosely), men of the day were considered to be the more rock-steady personalities, stolid, and predictable, self-reliant, etc.; and women were considered the more flighty and emotionally variable, etc. Again, I think this to be absolutely intentional on Hardy's part.

[Silver]

Christopher wrote: "Silver, I think you are spot-on with your observations here. I would agree completely that it is Jude's idealistic expectations that we are most aware of, and that it is almost jarring when we enc..."

Yes, it seems to me that before Jude even met Sue, he created this idea in his head, that if only he was not married to Arabella, he could marry Sue, without once considering the possibility that Sue herself may have different ideas, but he has become so lost within his own ideal of Sue which he has created that he cannot see pass that. This is another example of his in ability to really function in the real world becasue he cannot think beyond his own dreams and desires.

While Sue does have a more ethereal quality than Arabella does, and is not so "grounded" in the world as Arabella, Sue also has a greater realization of the world in which she lives in than Jude does.

It is also interesting the way in which Jude makes remarks about how Sue is more well read than he is, for this is another example of that seemingly reversing the stereotypical roles of the sexes. Sue is in fact more educated than Jude is.

But I think one of the problems for Sue, she does have more of an awareness of the world in which she is trapped in. Unlike Jude who had this vision that he could just go to Christminsiter and all these wonderful things would happen for him in his life, Sue is a more cynical/realist view of how the world truly is, and yet she has all these conflicting philosophies and ideas against the status quo, she knows she cannot in fact live the way she truly wants to live, but that she must accept the world for what it is.

[Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.), Founder]

Silver, again, I think you absolutely have the right of it! Well done!

[whimsicalmeerkat]

Christopher wrote: "I too have sympathy for Sue. I like her character in this novel for many of the reasons that Madge has identified above. Sue continues to strike me as an intelligent young woman who is in a const..."

I did not mean insincere in the sense that she says one thing and means another. I meant the absence of sincerity, which to me implies a lack of thought and consideration. She says what she is thinking but in a very self-centered way without thinking about the impact on others. I do not find any virtue in someone blurting out the first thing that comes into their head if they do not make an effort to do otherwise when they know and have seen that it causes pain to others.

[Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.), Founder]

Denae wrote: "Christopher wrote: "I too have sympathy for Sue. I like her character in this novel for many of the reasons that Madge has identified above. Sue continues to strike me as an intelligent young wom..."

Denae, I knew what you were implying in your original comment. I was just expanding upon and responding to it. I certainly see your point though about Sue's directness. She surely doesn't gild the lily.

[whimsicalmeerkat]

She sometimes reminds me of a child who was never really taught how to behave towards people.

[Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.), Founder]

Denae wrote: "She sometimes reminds me of a child who was never really taught how to behave towards people."

LOL! Yeah, I think it is something in the Fawley blood (maybe "it is in the water"). Good point! ;-)

[whimsicalmeerkat]

What can I say, there's an overabundance of teachers in my family.

[Silver]

Bill wrote: I was astounded that she lived 15 months with a man who she says herself wanted to have sex with her, and reproached her for being in such close quarters with him and yet not putting out. This is a case where she doesn't consider the feelings of others over a long period of time..."

It was a bit schokking to here of the fact that she acutally lived in this platonic way (at least platonic on her end) with a man, something that would be virtually unheard of it at that period of time. But I do not think that Sue should be held wholly accountable for her ill-treatment of said individual.

The man was just as capable of choosing of either choosing to leave her, or forcing her to leave his residence upon his realizing that she did not have the same desires and intentions in the "realtionship" as he himself did. Sue was hardly holding him prisoner, he bares some of the responsibility for his persisting to allow himself to remain in that situation.

Perhaps the problem is not altogether Sue's ignorance in how to treat people, but the fact that men were conditioned to view women only as objects of sex and marriage, (which perhaps to a certain extent is still true today, and designed by nature, but there is much more ability for men and women to form genuine friendships without that expectation between them.)

I think Hardy is making a point about the relations between men and women in this period of time, and how Sue is very forward thinking in her desires to want something more in her companionship's than just and relations to others than just physcial contact and the need of women to submit themselves to the desires of men.

I will admit I was a bit baffled by her agreeing to marry Philotston considering her views and her awareness that she does not love him nor does she seem to be generally seeking any form of physical connection, but it could be a reflection her acknowledging that within the society she lives in she has little choice but to eventually consent to marriage, life was not easy on "spinsters' women who never married. So she bowed to the will of society as her only means to survive within the world.

[Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.), Founder]

Bill wrote-- "I understand what you say about her being a modern woman. But I felt that Arabella is as 'modern' as she is. At least as far as I observe the many various kinds of modern women around me."

You may be correct, Bill. I think I want to ponder that a while though. Although, it is my view that Arabella and Sue are about as diametrically opposed as two people could be.

[MadgeUK]

Silver wrote: I think Hardy is making a point about the relations between men and women in this period of time...

Again, you are 'spot on' here Silver. I think Hardy is pointing this out both in Arabella's and Sue'e character but the difference with Sue is that she is more aware of the controversy she courts than Arabella is. Arabella's situation was accepted in the village where she lived as being natural for a young woman trying to 'get her man' whereas Sue is living in a town where the mores will be entirely different and where her career and future could be affected.

Sue's platonic relationship with the student is yet another of the situations Victorian women who were starting to go out and about, to college etc. would find themselves in. Men and women, especially students, commonly share houses 'platonically' today (my grand-daughter is doing so right now!) but it was very unusual then. Sue is also portrayed as being rather 'frigid' so she may feel that a marriage to an older, less vigorous man may suit her better? It was common in Victorian times for an older man to propose to a younger woman and for her to be expected to accept because an 'established' man would be a good catch financially. Love did not come into many a Victorian marriage - we are much more hung up on this than they were. Hardy may be pointing this out too.

[Silver]

Bill wrote: Also--all this about bending to the whims of society--Arabella seems to get along fine without doing that. She's not a paradigm of morality-granted-but she does what she wants and doesn't seem all that unhappy compared to everyone else..."

The difference between Arabella and Sue is that while in the since of her seductions and her having questionable morals in how she sets out to try and snag a husband for herself, she perhaps does what she wants, but she is not acutally in rebellion against the social standards of the day. Maybe some of the things she does can be seen as unconventional, but she accepts the world for what it is and simply does what she must to survive within it, without in fact questioning if it is wrong or right or if society is wrong or right.

Sue is more intellectual, while she may feel pressured by society, she does not not completely bow will to it as Arabella does. Sue does question the state of the world in which she lives in and she is aware of the wrongness of society. She wants to be able to express her freedom and individualism and yet she knows such would not be allowed.

Arabella is acting more upon her instinct to survive than any concious awareness of challenging the norms of society.

[MadgeUK]

Arabella was a village girl living in a village Bill - Sue is an educated woman now in a large town, trying to pursue a career and she would be judged far more harshly.

Nowadays many a man and woman live together without a sexual relationship, with perhaps one or the other desiring it and yet accepting it. My four children have lived in various set-ups like this quite amicably. But in Hardy's time it was pretty unusual and could absolutely ruin a woman's reputation. I think Hardy is trying to show his readers that these different sorts of relationships could exist, just as they exist today and most of us would not bat an eyelid.

My 20 year old granddaughter is blonde and beautiful - very Swedish looking - and she currently shares a house with another equally good looking brunette and two young men whom they hadn't met before they went up to University last September. None are sleeping with the other, they are just friends. Sue's situation would seem perfectly OK to them - just because a bloke desires sex with a girl does not mean that he has to get it!! Sue was only behaving as young people do today but in advance of her time - just as Hardy was ahead of his time.

[Silver]

MadgeUK wrote: "Arabella was a village girl living in a village Bill - Sue is an educated woman now in a large town, trying to pursue a career and she would be judged far more harshly.

Nowadays many a man and wom..."

Yes you make an excellent point! I myself have always gotten along better with men than women and tend to have closer friendships with men. I have had more than once suspected my male friends may have had a more then platonic interest, and one of which openly admitted to such, but this did not mean that we had to completely stop being friends just because the feeling was not mutual. I do not think I am a horrible person for either not submitting to thier desires or for not than ceasing all friendship and contact with them.

[whimsicalmeerkat]

Christopher wrote: "You may be correct, Bill. I think I want to ponder that a while though. Although, it is my view that Arabella and Sue are about as diametrically opposed as two people could be."

I would argue this on (for now) two fronts. First, neither is terribly conventional, for all Arabella is more so. Second, neither of them is particularly devout, although Jude seems to read this characteristic onto them both.

[MadgeUK]

Me too Silver - perhaps that is why we understand Sue:). And women pursuing a career in any age have far more to lose by entering into a sexual relationship than do men, even when birth control is available and when it wasn't, well....

[Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.), Founder]

In looking at Arabella in a 'modern' context, I would have to say that she's pretty self-centered, and focused on doing whatever it might take to further her own prospects. In fairness to her character though, I would also have to say that Arabella is actually a pretty happy person generally. She is certainly not morose like Jude. She knows what she wants from life, and she sets out to get it, doesn't she. Interestingly enough, one can probably come to the conclusion she doesn't give two figs for the judgment of society or the Church. All in all, Arabella probably would do pretty darned well in a modern world, as she goes about doing what's best for Arabella without the least concern for those around her. We all know people like her, don't we?

[MadgeUK]

Denae wrote: I would argue this on (for now) two fronts....

Very true Denae - Jude seems to be mentally putting them both into an 'Angel in the House' situation, so common in Victorian men.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ange...

[MadgeUK]

Can't you see her frigidity, in those times without birth control, as a form of protection Bill? Arabella didn't mind that she got pregnant, Sue would mind very much and yet as a Victorian woman she still needs the protection of a man. As Silver wrote, spinsters had a hard time of it.

[whimsicalmeerkat]

MadgeUK wrote: "Me too Silver - perhaps that is why we understand Sue:). And women pursuing a career in any age have far more to lose by entering into a sexual relationship than do men, even when birth control is ..."

Sexual relationship or romantic relationship? I am not certain how a situation which is purely the former or the former plus friendship would impact a career.

I'm also not sure why I'm feeling so contrary today xD

[Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.), Founder]

Denae wrote-- "I would argue this on (for now) two fronts. First, neither is terribly conventional, for all Arabella is more so. Second, neither of them is particularly devout, although Jude seems to read this characteristic onto them both."

I think that none of them, including Phillotson, are particularly devout. Just as Madge and Silver have been discussing above, I do agree with you that Arabella is the more conventional of the two women for her time though. Arabella's 'entrapment' of Jude was, as I understand, a fairly common technique/occurrence; and Sue's non-traditional approaches to relationships with men (e.g., her college student friend, Jude, and Phillotson) was not common at all I'm betting. Thinking about this now myself, I can see that Sue is, in some respects, just as 'guilty' as Jude in maintaining lofty ideals. I am reminded of the scene early on in this section when the soaking wet Sue is drying out in Jude's room, and she says,

"'You called me a creature of civilization, or something, didn't you?' she said, breaking a silence. 'It was very odd you should have done that.'
'Why?'
'Well, because it is provokingly wrong. I am a sort of negation of it.'"

I think Sue is correct, in her own way, there really isn't anyone else like her. Arabella is earthy and erotic, Sue is ethereal and intellectual. Sue is the anti-Arabella, in my view.

Having said all of this though, I do think we need just a bit more information--particularly that associated with the tension between her sexuality and her intellectual independence--before we can begin to paint the whole picture of Sue Bridehead though.

We certainly have the makings of a hell of a pas de quatre, don't we?

[Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.), Founder]

I have to tell you all that I am thoroughly enjoying this fine back-and-forth we are having with this section of the novel, and with the book as a whole. I also think that it is going to get even better. We are just scratching at the very tip of the iceberg right now! Ladies and gentlemen, give yourselves a big 'pat' on the back!

[MadgeUK]

Chris wrote: I am thoroughly enjoying this fine back-and-forth...

Me too Chris! What a lively lot, say I as the clock chimes midnight and reminds me I should be abed!!

[Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.), Founder]

Denae wrote-- "I'm also not sure why I'm feeling so contrary today xD"

You're not contrary, Denae! LOL! Actually, this has been really valuable, as you've made me stop and re-evaluate some of my own thoughts and opinions. I have really gotten a lot out of all of the differing viewpoints expressed by everyone today.

[Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.), Founder]

MadgeUK wrote: "Chris wrote: I am thoroughly enjoying this fine back-and-forth...

Me too Chris! What a lively lot, say I as the clock chimes midnight and reminds me I should be abed!!"

Sleep tight, Madge, and we'll see you right back here in the a.m.! ;-)

[whimsicalmeerkat]

Christopher wrote: "Denae wrote-- "I'm also not sure why I'm feeling so contrary today xD"

You're not contrary, Denae! LOL! Actually, this has been really valuable, as you've made me stop and re-evaluate some of my..."

I said feeling contrary, although a lot of people I know would probably argue with you that I'm contrary most of the time. :) Admittedly, I've not said anything I don't think. Maybe feisty is a better word.

[Everyman]

Bill wrote: "I was astounded that she lived 15 months with a man who she says herself wanted to have sex with her, and reproached her for being in such close quarters with him and yet not putting out....
Then she marries a man she obviously doesn't love."

I agree with you that Sue is not the sweet, kind person some here have seen her as. She is very capable of getting what she wants without any regard for the feelings of other people. The suggestion some have made that the man should have moved out disregards the fact that it was his home she moved into; yes, he could have kicked her out, but it would seem likely that the reason he didn't is that he kept hoping, and that would make sense only if she gave him some reason to hope.

And then she marries for her own reasons, not for love or that much concern for him.

I see her as more manipulative than some others here do.

[Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.), Founder]

@ Everyman-- Well, that's quite fine. I think we can safely say that we agree to disagree. At least I can say that I disagree with you, and I shan't speak for others. As for manipulative, I think we probably can all agree that all four characters are manipulative at various times and to varying degrees.

Just as a general observation, I think it is intriguing that we have a breakdown on assessment of this novel that is remarkably similar to that which occurred shortly after its publication. I am finding it fascinating to see what issues are being discussed, and why, and then by whom.

[MadgeUK]

Yes, very similar, I think there are some reincarnated Victorians here:):) I didn't think that anyone had said that Sue was sweet and kind, there has just been sympathy expressed for her, especially by the women here, for the problems she faces as a Victorian career woman.

Many people are manipulative one way or another - and my old cat is more manipulative than any human! It is a survival tactic.

I think it is worth looking more closely at the paragraph where Sue described her relationship with the student.

She said: 'He asked me to live with him, and I agreed to by letter. But when I joined him in London I found he meant a different thing from what I meant. He wanted me to be his mistress, in fact, but I wasn't in love with him--and on my saying I should go away if he didn't agree to MY plan, he did so.'

'He said I was breaking his heart by holding out against him so long at such close quarters; he could never have believed it of woman. I might play that game once too often, he said.... His death caused a terrible remorse in me for my cruelty...'

So the student persuaded her to live with him and accepted her conditions, even left her some money in his will. Her on-off attitude towards Jude is a result of the student's warning that she might 'play that game once too often.' She doesn't want to hurt anyone or to feel that same remorse again.

I think the second paragraph about 'never believing it of a woman' (her frigidity) is Hardy's knock at the Victorian idea of all women being femme fatales like Eve. Hardy had quite a few girl friends himself without, apparently, having sex with them. (He was a bit of a lad but a shy one!)

[Silver]

Bill wrote: Are you saying Victorians thought women were all sexually voracious if not sufficiently repressed? .."

That is about the gist of it. Proper women were not suppose to express any interest, enjoyment or desire for sex, but look to it as a duty in which she must preform for her husband which gains her no pleasure.

Though as in the case of Arabealla in smaller towns, this ideal perhaps has a bit more leniency than for upper classes, but the ideal for a Victorian woman in general was that she must seem chaste, and pure.

This is part of why prostitution was so rampant at the time, becasue wives were meant to give the appearance of being "frigid" men had to go to fallen women for the satisfaction which they were not expected to receive at home as well as a way to "protect' thier wives from thier own sexual desires.

[MadgeUK]

LOL Bill, glad you are rooting!

Yes, they repressed them because they thought they were sexually voracious, just as Eve was. This idea has a long Christian history. In Christian Art Eve is most usually portrayed as the temptress of Adam, and often during the Renaissance the serpent in the Garden is portrayed as having a woman's face identical to that of Eve. 'The popular image of Eve, the temptress, has grown out of the story of Genesis 3, and in particular out of the crucial last half of v. 6 in that J i . chapter: " . she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, and he ate"'

Victorian women were taught to be submissive, to subdue their 'Eve-like' tendencies. Hannah More’s popular The Education of Daughters (1777), states:

‘Bold, enterprising spirit… so much admired in boys, should not in the other sex, be encouraged, but suppressed. Girls should be taught not perniciously to carry on a dispute, even if they know themselves to be right… [Girls] should acquire a submissive temper and a forbearing spirit.’

Earlier Gnostic gospels thought of Eve as a life-giving force but somehow this ‘life-giving Eve, the instructor, and spiritual principle in humanity’ was suppressed in favour of Augustine’s ‘Eve the Temptress’, who passed not only the contagion of ‘Original Sin’ in perpetuity, but a loathsome and sinful sexuality. Morally deficient and sexually insatiable, she had to be kept subordinate and under control to prevent her from being a danger and temptation to men.'

http://www.brlsi.org/proceed04/belief...

It is these ideas that Hardy and his characters are struggling against - in Jude and in his other 'fallen women' novels.

[MadgeUK]

Well put Silver.

Though as in the case of Arabealla in smaller towns, this ideal perhaps has a bit more leniency

I think that in small villages there were less men to 'catch' and so women had to 'show their wares', hence the leniency. However, men had to marry them (or leave the area, like Alec in Tess), especially if pregnancy ensued - as we saw with Jude. (Hardy originally had Alec leave Tess in the lurch, as was often the reality, but his editor made him write in a 'marriage' scene for morality's sake.)

Another factor leading to the prevalence of prostitution was the common practice of women refusing sex during pregnancy and lactation which meant, in effect, that men would have to do without sex from their wives for a year or more. This acted as a form of birth control for the women but could, of course, drive their men to seek satisfaction elsewhere.

(Edited.)

[Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.), Founder]

Bill wrote-- "Then out from a hedge pops a voluptuous woman throwing a pig penis at him, seducing him, and ruining his life." [Emphasis added is mine]

Whoa, whoa! I don't know if I could even get remotely close to accepting that Arabella has ruined Jude's life! I think "you have some 'splaining to do" here, Bill. ;-)

[Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.), Founder]

Well, Bill, it is your point, and you're entitled to it. Suffice it to say that I don't think Arabella's seduction of Jude, throwing a pig's pizzle at him, or even marrying him are the real issue behind what's going on in Jude's life. I guess we'll have to wait and see how it plays out, and see if your point changes.

I guess what I am really getting from your comment is that Arabella is a 'nasty bit of work' in your view though?

[Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.), Founder]

Bill, I don't see Hardy's Arabella as perpetuating the Victorian ideal of a woman either. In fact, I see her as antithetical to that ideal in the extreme. Also, I am not precisely sure which posting of Madge's that you are explicitly referencing. That may be part of my lack of following your point here.

[Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.), Founder]

Bill wrote: "Christopher wrote: "Bill, I don't see Hardy's Arabella as perpetuating the Victorian ideal of a woman either. In fact, I see her as antithetical to that ideal in the extreme. Also, I am not preci..."

Yes, I see now, and in that posting I think the implication is that Hardy's Arabella is most definitely antithetical to the Victorian ideal. Wouldn't you agree?

[Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.), Founder]

Simply put, and I really mean 'simply put', I think Hardy's intention with all of the women of his novels is that there should not be any double-standard whatosever. Women should be treated equally in affairs of the heart and body as men are (were). And it was a shocking thesis to advance in that day and age.

[whimsicalmeerkat]

Bill wrote: "As I understand Madge, Hardy was struggling against the antithesis (Temptress-woman) so as to destroy its thesis (Victorian woman). This makes sense to me as well."

He didn't really manage to avoid the Madonna/Whore thing, despite Sue's being far from perfect. Relative to Arabella though, one might say she is "pure."

[Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.), Founder]

I must be particularly numb, dumb, or dim because I am just not understanding your point here at all, Bill. I am sure it is through no fault of your own, and it is just me. Moving on, I say.

[Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.), Founder]

Denae wrote-- "He didn't really manage to avoid the Madonna/Whore thing"

And I would maintain that he wants to put that right out there front and center. Wouldn't you agree? In other words, women can have erotic feelings and act upon them sexually, just as men could; and still be considered 'good' women.