Jane Austen discussion
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Emma and the faults of all the heroines
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Elizabeth Bennet jumped to conclusions about Mr. Darcy and ended up looking like an idiot, so you could say her fault is hasty judgment. Mr. Darcy seemed like a rude, proud person, so she assumed he was. Mr. Wickham seemed like a refined, much-abused gentleman, so she assumed he was. Lizzy is far from perfect, she's human.
Allow me to put on the hat of 'defending' my proposition, even though I am really just enjoying an interesting discussion about the books.I agree that her falling for Wickham could have been a silly thing, but Austen did not allow her to completely fall for him, she saved her heroine from the fault of being foolish in love.Austen did the exact same thing with Emma and Frank Churchill. In both instances the heroine realised she didn't care for the man.
Elizabeth jumped to conclusions to be sure, but Austen did not allow that to ever become a fault. Austen used it as a means to keep her unattached giving her the chance to show us how attractive she was (Arguably four men were attracted to her throughout the book) and how wise she was about other matches (Mr Collins and arguably Wickham)
Quite an interesting topic!Of Jane's faulty characters, I would say Jane Bennet is the naivest. She thinks too well of everybody and is always blind to see meanness of others' manners and words. Had she lives in today's world, she would not have made to 20.
Marianne and her schmaltzy attitude towards pretty much everything. I remember Elinor telling her "it is not every one who has your passion for dead leaves." It was such a nuisance to everyone including me. At times you just feel like shouting at her "By heaven, pull yourself together girl".
her over sentimentality has almost led her to ruin, if we regard the fate of Eliza. He walked away on her and she just kept weeping and mourning his absence. Still, we can't deny that Marianne' s sensibility was to serve as a pure device for Austen' s aim: to criticize such romanticism.
Ms Sweetish wrote: "Of Jane's faulty characters, I would say Jane Bennet is the naivest. She thinks too well of everybody and is always blind to see meanness of others' manners and words. ..."
I guess what I am really arguing is that the characters are never given truelly real faults. Jane's biggest fault is 'thinking the best of people'. It is the type of fault that would make you roll your eyes if you were sitting around with a group of women and one of them said that that was their biggest fault.
Marianne has faults I do agree. Similiar to Emma (and Lydia) as her faults are largely based on an immature outlook on life.
I think that Austen's heroines are defined by their faults, with the exception of Fanny Price, who is defined by her moral integrity. Elizabeth is prejudiced, Catherine Morland succumbs to her imagination, Marianne is unrestrained and emotionally selfish, Anne allows someone else's judgment to supersede her own and Emma is self centered and cruel. Elinor may be said to be a glutton for punishment - she continues to indulge Lucy when she perhaps should have snubbed her from the first - but when compared to Marianne's emotional indulgence, it's hard to find fault with Elinor.
J. wrote: "I think that Austen's heroines are defined by their faults, with the exception of Fanny Price, who is defined by her moral integrity. Elizabeth is prejudiced, Catherine Morland succumbs to her imag..."Very true! I never thought of it that way.
Those were the times that Austen lived, so although we are putting 21st century sensibilities into her works, that was true of those times. The heroine in Northanger Abbey was a likeable person. It was a different Austen work because it was one of her first works. I like the intrigues between Marianne and Elinor. Marianne was too caught up by Willoughby, she should have left well enough alone. Anyway they all bring something to the table of this discussion.
I don't dislike Emma actually , i really quite like her...however i think that everyone has their faults... for e.g
Emma - well her matchmaking... amoung other things which have been mentioned.
Lizzy - as already said, her prejudice and jumping to conclusions.
Anne - her ability to be persuaded...
Catherine - her wild imagination taking her too far..
Jane - blindness and naivity!! she likes everyone...
Marianne - over the top in her emotions and a tad selfish
their is some examples of what i think :)
but i think they all need faults so that they can mend their faults and then live happily ever after ;) with their hero who has also corrected their faults :)
Every Austen heroine has her own faults,Elizabeth is prejudiced and hasty in her judgement of others,Emma is too snobbish,self-centered,and thinks she knows everything,Catherine lets her imagination run wild,Marianne's is her wild emotions/feelings and not being able to understand that people think differnt form her,and Anne takes the advice of people she loves over her own heart/feelings
Fanny doesn't have any faults and I don't think Elinor has any.I don't know if Jane Bennet is a heroine,I never took her as one.
I love how in all Austen's books(not Mansfield Park) the heroines see there faults and try and do fix there ways.Then they end up with there perfect match.Someone who brings out the best in them.Not the worst like if Marianne had ended up with Willoghby(i know I spelled it wrong sorry)
That's exactly what I said :) Cept you put it better than me!!!! ;)
I think the faults are really important :)
Soph wrote: "I think the faults are really important :)"Thanks,I do also.But I still love Fanny as one of my favorite Jane Austen heroines.
Glad to see someone who likes her :) I see many mixed views :)
I'm not sure that Fanny Price has no faults. Her almost overwhelming jealousy of Julia could count as one.
I would have said one of Fanny's greatest faults was her timidity. At her age I probably was much the same, but I only hope I wasn't so frustrating to those around me as she was to me. I never really thought of Jane as naive, exactly. She was determined to see the best in people, and started off with a good opinion of everyone - and was slow to allow circumstantial evidence alter her opinions; I didn't see it as naivety so much as dogged optimism in the face of everything but the most concrete facts. I know I'm too quick in the opposite direction (to use myself as a comparison point again), and so I feel her sweet and sunny-side outlook is an enviable virtue. I only wish I could be that charitable.
I certainly do believe that the heroine's have faults (well, maybe not Jane Bennet or Fanny Price quite as much). The novels are usually about the heroine learning a lesson and bettering herself. Lizzy will from now on get to know people before she gets a horrible impression of them, and thereby makes a fool of herself by being cruel towards them.
Marianne will value reason over feelings.
Elinor will perhaps value feelings as must as reason.
Anne will follow her own heart and stick up for herself.
Emma will learn to mind her own business and not think of herself as better than everyone else.
Of course the heroine's are generally likeable - otherwise we wouldn't be able to get through a whole novel with them! But they all do have faults, in my opnion, though they usually learn from it and fix it. :)
Yes - the novels are as much or more about the heroines reforming than they are about the girl getting the guy :)
Soph wrote: "Yes - the novels are as much or more about the heroines reforming than they are about the girl getting the guy :)"
I definitely agree:)
I definitely agree:)
I am suggesting that although Emma is on of the least liked of Austen's heroines that she is also the most realistic. She has real faults (not fake faults like we might say at a job interview that we are "perfectionists" like it is a bad thing). Do any of Austen's other heroines have real faults? Or are they all just nice things that we are pretending are faults. For example is Anne's (Persuausion) only fault that she takes advice from her family, that she cares deeply for them and allows herself to be guided by them. Sure it did not initially result in the her having what she wanted, but was that a fault and does she have any others. I suspect like many of Austen's other heroines Anne is indeed perfect.