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Ethan Frome
Edith Wharton Collection
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Ethan Frome: Week 2 - Part II: Chapters V-IX + Epilogue
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Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.), Founder
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Mar 06, 2011 05:55AM
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Yes, it should. Thank you for catching that! Sheesh! I have been refinishing furniture all weekend, and I think I am a little punchy.
You should use the water-base stripper. That's what I used on my last 4 tables. No fumes; I use it indoors.
I thought the passages of Ethan and Mattie as they were thinking of each other and their futures was so achingly beautifully written. I had read EF many, many years ago and about all I remembered was the smash. I had totally forgotten that it was intentional. What a horrible waste of two young lives.If there is a more depressing book than EF, I haven't read it. Even Jude will be a ray of sunshine after this.
Everyman wrote: "I thought the passages of Ethan and Mattie as they were thinking of each other and their futures was so achingly beautifully written. I had read EF many, many years ago and about all I remembered..."That's exactly what I was thinking, that I'd forgotten it was intentional. I can see now how I would have loved this in high school. All of that forbidden love and all. I don't find it necessarily depressing though. Everyone sort of got exactly what they asked for.
@bill in this thread it's fine as it won't be a spoiler here.
Jaime wrote: "Everyone sort of got exactly what they asked for."
Not so. Ethan and Mattie wanted to love each other or die, not be beholden to Zeena for the rest of their lives.
Crashing a sled into a tree is a very strange and not efficient way of committing suicide. Sonny Bono and Natasha Richardson notwithstanding (not suicides), not many people die crashing into trees, either by choice or accident.
I disagree. Ethan cheated and both he and Mattie acted like children. Neither knew what they wanted or had the words and sense to ask for the proper things, what they did ask for: a life together, is exactly what they got.
Bill wrote: "Jaime wrote: "I disagree. Ethan cheated and both he and Mattie acted like children. Neither knew what they wanted or had the words and sense to ask for the proper things, what they did ask for: a ..."Lol!
Bill wrote: "First I'd like to begin by thumping my chest. Please observe post 76 in the previous discussion thread in which I predict the crash. I always knew it was going to end this way but didn't know it ..."Yes I know what you mean, it is a bit hard to believe in Mattie's great love for Ethan, because we do not really see any evidence of her having such feelings for him within the book. We only see Ethan's passion for her.
Though I do find it more believable that Mattie would choose suicide more so than Ethan would, but this is more because of the fact that she does seem to be so young, thus more impulsive and more emotional. Though Ethan is not exactly old, he is a married man and has endured more and lived more of life than Mattie has. Plus if Ethan really wanted to kill himself I think he would have taken his own life after the accident instead of continuing to live in his misery.
I am not so sure if Mattie's own actions are driven necessarily by some great overwhelming love, as she never claims to love Ethan, she repeatedly states that he is the only one that has been kind to her. I think her wishing to die rather than leave Ethan may have been more from her fear of having to face her unknown fate, and the hostility that seems to have surrounded her life. Having no where else she can go, no one else she can turn to. Perhaps it was more the thought of leaving behind the kindness to subject herself to loneliness and hardship that drove her.
Jaime wrote: "I disagree. Ethan cheated and both he and Mattie acted like children. Neither knew what they wanted or had the words and sense to ask for the proper things, what they did ask for: a life together,..."Yes I had the same impression. The story certainly is a very bleak, sad and tragic one, and beautifully told, but I myself failed to be depressed by it, because though I had read most of it with an open mind and trying to keep my own judgements out of it, I found the last chapter their least sympathetic moments in the story for me. And my first impression was their attempt at suicide for their alleged love was a very childish thing to do.
Bill wrote: "Silver wrote: "I think her wishing to die rather than leave Ethan may have been more from her fear of having to face her unknown fate, and the hostility that seems to have surrounded her life. Havi..."I agree, she absolutely should be grown up by now. I don't think she loved Ethan, but loved the idea of a grown up life. She wanted to be wanted and play house IMO.
I don't remember anyone relating anything to the narrator about Zeena or him actually seeing anything about her that would account for his portrayal of her in his vision. Whats up with that?..."I can only presume that the narrator got his vision of Zeena from Ethan himself, as I was struck by Mrs. Hale's comments "nobody ever knows what Zeena is thinking" I do think it is quite interesting how Zeena is the one character who really is not given a voice within the story. We see occasional moments of dialogue between her and Ethan but even than she is always a bit vague about things.
I just finished the last few pages of the book and I was quite struck by the sheer irony of the ending in that last scene painting of Ethan, Zeena, and Mattie, as Jamie stated there is this grave sense that they did all get what they deserved. It somewhat reminds me of the phrase "careful what you wish for" for ultimately Ethan and Mattie got their desire, but at such a grave cost, and Zeena for her at the very least exaggerating her illness all this time, and possibly staging fake doctor visits to finically drain Ethan, once more is placed in the position of being the one to play nursemaid.
Also there are several mentions of Ethan's face, and how horrifying it is to look upon. I cannot recall if it stated at the beginning, but is this purely just a reflection of what he has suffered, or are we to infer that he was actually physically scared by the accident?
Jaime wrote: "I disagree. Ethan cheated and both he and Mattie acted like children. Neither knew what they wanted or had the words and sense to ask for the proper things, what they did ask for: a life together,..."Why do you think Wharton would write such a tragic story about 2 people acting like children? ;) No such trivia appears in any of her other work.
I agree with Rochelle. I see the suicide attempt as the desperate impulse of two people with no hope for the future. Mattie may not be in love with Ethan, but she certainly fears the future and we know Ethan will be forlorn without Mattie.
Silver noted Zeena was the one person who was not given a voice in the story. At first I thought Zeena a very unsympathetic figure, with her hypochondria and whining, but my view has entirely shifted. Lily posted some interesting links to a critical review of EF. In one the author stated:
The wife who stands for fate in this drama is a curious and repugnant figure. She introduces the same vein of close-mouthed malignity which darkens local history. The helpless fear and loathing she inspires in her husband is the essence of supernatural terror without its obsolete husk of ignorance. By showing this instance of a hypochondriac roused by jealousy out of a "sullen self-absorption" and transformed into a mysterious alien presence, an evil energy secreted from the long years of silent brooding, Mrs. Wharton touches on a very radical identity. We realize that the same gloating satisfaction that made the wife smile upon the parting lovers, had something to do with her capabilities as a nurse. Her pleasure at the sight of pain she had inflicted -- was it, perchance, from such an evil spring that her strength was drawn for the long years of drudgery between two cripples?
I would be interested to see if anyone agrees with this assessment. I completely disagreed with it and believe Zeena to be caught up in the tragedy. We know she stopped talking to Ethan years before because he didn't listen. Perhaps her hypochondria was a symptom of depression-it is common for depression to cause pathological complaints. Perhaps she felt as trapped as he did, or felt neglected? Who knows? We only see her from Ethan's perspective.
When Zeena discovered the broken dish, I felt more sympathy for her that I ever did for Ethan or Mattie.
When she says, 'now you've took from me the one I cared for most of all' is she talking about the precious dish, or the husband? And when she smiled at the departing lovers , might she be smiling because the trouble-maker is leaving?
Sasha wrote: "When she says, 'now you've took from me the one I cared for most of all' is she talking about the precious dish, or the husband? And when she smiled at the departing lovers , might she be smiling because the trouble-maker is leaving? ..."I do think she was talking about more than just the dish, as we already know that the dish is something that is symbolic for her marriage, being a wedding gift. So yes I think she did mean Ethan, or her marriage in general when said that.
Bill wrote: "Sasha wrote: "I would be interested to see if anyone agrees with this assessment..."No.
I agreed with very little of what I could understand of it. Ethans not nearly that terrified of Zeena. A..."
It's pretty OTT, I reckon. Maybe the critic was Mattie LOL.
There is something which I am curious about. After Zeena returns from her doctors appointment and she gets in an argument with Ethan about having a hired girl come in. She states:
"Yes; and my folks all told me at that time you couldn't do no less than marry me after---"
The sentence seemingly left unfinished as Ethan cuts her off. Is this implying the Ethan had seduced/slept with Zeena prior? Because it does not seem to me to mean that her family thought Ethan ought to marry her just because she helped nurse his mother.
Silver wrote: "There is something which I am curious about. After Zeena returns from her doctors appointment and she gets in an argument with Ethan about having a hired girl come in. She states:
"Yes; and..."
Ooh maybe! Tantalising.
Mattie didn't seem at all spiteful, but she could be devious-using the precious dish, for example. I was first prompted to question Mattie's innocence early on, when Ethan muses about Mattie's 'trick' of sinking her lids when something moved or amused her. The word
'trick' immediately made me think of deceitful flirtatiousness. Then I looked at the definition of 'trick' and saw it could also mean a mannerism, which is the way Ethan would have meant it. But EW's use of the word was clever and planted a seed in my thinking.
First I'd like to begin by thumping my chest. Please observe post 76 in the previous discussion thread in which I predict the crash. I always knew it was going to end this way but didn't know it would be on purpose.LOL Bill (Post 7). Then I will thump my bosom too, as I pointed out the foreshadowings regarding the red 'fascinator' and the elm etc. much earlier. There are a lot of clues both in the Introduction and the first chapter if you are aware of the symbolism of certain things - like the colour red! Always look out for the colour red!
Great post and analysis, particularly the last paragraph. Thankyou.
Bill wrote: "Incoming! Incoming!..."Sorry, but what does this mean Bill? I don't understand it or why Jaime thinks it was funny. (I'm a Brit y'know:):))
Sasha wrote: "I agree with Rochelle. I see the suicide attempt as the desperate impulse of two people with no hope for the future. Mattie may not be in love with Ethan, but she certainly fears the future and we ..."I agree, there is nothing childish about love between adults in this situation and love comes unbidden. They were unused to such passion and found it difficult to deal with in the circumstances in which they found themselves. Given that love is such an unpredictable emotion, I think these events could have happened to anyone (though not the attempted suicide). We also have to remember that the love was unconsummated - there was no adultery, no real 'cheating', just dreams and longing.
I did feel that the attempted suicide was a bit melodramatic and that it could have just been portrayed as a tragic accident without EW introducing Mattie's idea about suicide. Although feelings of suicide surrounding the love do emphasise the depth of her feelings, and the despair in the situation.
Everyman wrote: "If there is a more depressing book than EF, I haven't read it. Even Jude will be a ray of sunshine after this. "I disagree. EF is shorter! :-P
Bill wrote: "Impulsive would explain it. By why would the impulse be to kill themselves rather then raid the pantry, grab the wagon, and head west? Thats no less abandoning responsibilities then killing oneself, and it seems a lot more exciting. "Because he couldn't stand the feelings of guilt over abandoning Zeena, that's why. Suicide felt like the only way out.
Sasha wrote: "I agree with Rochelle. I see the suicide attempt as the desperate impulse of two people with no hope for the future. Mattie may not be in love with Ethan, but she certainly fears the future and we ..."I also agree. I don't think their suicide was childish- or it was no more childish than any other suicide, if you want to be critical of suicides. They were desperate, and they really couldn't think of another way out.
It was really them living on after the suicide that made the book so depressing. Romeo and Juliet is tragic, but it's not depressing in the same way as EF because the lovers do at least escape and their deaths have some meaning in the reconciliation of their families (and they get a whole play about them)!
Here, the futility of the suicide sort of points up the futility of their whole lives, and makes it pretty. damn. depressing.
I really love EW's The Age of Innocence and I feel like there are a few similar themes, especially the connection you can feel with someone unexpected, and the miserable futility of a life un-led.
I know EW had an awfully sad life herself- I wonder if she also felt that her life was futile? It's sad how even the most accomplished people can feel that way.
Rochelle wrote: "Ethan and Mattie wanted to love each other or die, not be beholden to Zeena for the rest of their lives. ."I'm not sure how Mattie, if she had indeed gone off on the train, would have been beholden to Zeena. But I agree with you that they preferred death together than life apart. And as it turned out, they did indeed get life together, though not at all in the way they had wanted.
Jaime wrote: "I disagree. Ethan cheated ..."Not sure just what you're meaning is here. Are you implying that they did indeed have an affair? Or do you mean cheated in an emotional sense, not a physical sense? And he was willing (very reluctantly, but willing) to part with Mattie and go back to living with Zeena -- it was Mattie who precipitated the crash, as I read the event.
Sasha wrote: "I agree with Rochelle. I see the suicide attempt as the desperate impulse of two people with no hope for the future. Mattie may not be in love with Ethan, but she certainly fears the future and we ..."I also agree basically with that. Ethan's realization that he would never be able to leave Zeena was crushing; he had a vision of a happy life with Mattie before him, and then reality and responsibility interposed to crush his dream and make him realize that all he had to look forward to in his life was a future of hardscrabble farming and a dismal and depressing life with a woman who would never even try to make him happy. I suspect a serious clinical depression.
Silver wrote: "I do think she was talking about more than just the dish, as we already know that the dish is something that is symbolic for her marriage, being a wedding gift. So yes I think she did mean Ethan, or her marriage in general when said that. "Yes, the dish was indeed symbolic of the marriage. But let's not forget that once she had received it, she put it way out of the way and never used it. Is there a reason Ethan and Zeena never had children? Is it possible that right after the wedding she also put the marriage on a high inaccessible shelf and that in fact it was never consummated?
Silver wrote: "TThere is something which I am curious about.After Zeena returns from her doctors appointment and she gets in an argument with Ethan about having a hired girl come in. She states:
"Yes; and my folks all told me at that time you couldn't do no less than marry me after---"
"
I too, wondered about that, but given the morality of the time I suspect it wasn't that he slept with her, but that she had gone into his home and lived with him and devoted part of her life to him and was now too old for anybody else to marry her, and he had an obligation now to care for her as she had come to care for his mother.
But I'm by no means certain of that interpretation. But OTOH, if they had slept together, would they really have told all her folks?
Everyman wrote: "Yes indeed the dish was symbolic of the marriage......"Excellent point Everyman - I had been thinking about the possible non-consummation of the marriage or perhaps the frigidity of it.
It is highly unlikely that Ethan and Zeena would have been 'living in sin'. Marriage would be been de rigeur in that community and if they hadn't been married I think EW would have made a point of telling us.
I see serious clinical depression too - perhaps in both Ethan and Zeena and maybe in Mattie too since suggesting suicide suggests underlying depression. Poor people:(
Everyman wrote: Yes, the dish was indeed symbolic of the marriage. But let's not forget that once she had received it, she put it way out of the way and never used it. Is there a reason Ethan and Zeena never had children? Is it possible that right after the wedding she also put the marriage on a high inaccessible shelf and that in fact it was never consummated? "I'd agree. I remember in high school I was exasperated by my teacher going on and on (as I saw it!) about the symbolism of the dratted red pickle dish. Happily my perspective has changed.
I'm not sure about never consummated in the sexual sense, but yes, I would agree that it was never consummated in the sense of 'brought to completion.' I'd always thought more about the moment the dish is broken, but I think you're right that the dish being put away is just as significant- it's almost like Ethan's possible happiness that is put away, and then Mattie takes it out only to have it broken.
Everyman wrote: "Silver wrote: "TThere is something which I am curious about.After Zeena returns from her doctors appointment and she gets in an argument with Ethan about having a hired girl come in. She states:
..."
Yes you bring up a good point. It seems unlikely if they had slept together that she would have told anyone about it, but than in a small town as that, it could just be that gossip had spread.
But perhaps what you say is right, that she had dedicated so much of her time, life, and youth to Ethan that they felt he owed her to marry her for it. It just gives the feeling to me of something left unsaid, something which happened between them that is not revealed.
And seeing his flirtations with Mattie, it is easy to imagine he proceeded in much the same way with Zeena when she first appeared.
As had been mentioned in a previous post. I too also wondered about the lack of children in their marriage, perhaps this is because of Zeena falling ill, or at least seemingly to have fallen ill so soon into their marriage
S. Rosemary wrote: "I think you're right that the dish being put away is just as significant- it's almost like Ethan's possible happiness that is put away, and then Mattie takes it out only to have it broken. "That's an addition to my thinking that I find most compelling -- the parallel between Mattie being the one to take out the dish and thereby cause it to be broken, and also being the cause of the marriage being broken.
But -- it was actually the cat which broke the dish. If Mattie had dropped it, that would be one thing. But the cat seemed a stand-in for Zeena, didn't it? The cat had jumped up into Zeena's chair -- surely it is not inadvertent that Wharton includes this detail?
MadgeUK wrote: "Bill wrote: "Incoming! Incoming!..."Sorry, but what does this mean Bill? I don't understand it or why Jaime thinks it was funny. (I'm a Brit y'know:):))"
It is what soldiers call out to warn of incoming enemy fire so that everybody can quickly take cover.
Everyman wrote: But -- it was actually the cat which broke the dish. If Mattie had dropped it, that would be one thing. But the cat seemed a stand-in for Zeena, didn't it? The cat had jumped up into Zeena's chair -- surely it is not inadvertent that Wharton includes this detail? .."Yes, I was wondering myself about the significance and presence of the cat and just what it was meant to represent as it did seem to have some purpose. I felt that it was like the reminding of the presence of Zeena, still there within the room, something of which Ethan and Mattie could never be completely free of. I found it interesting how the cat did seem to keep repeatedly showing up between them during that time when they were "alone" together. And also after Zeena returned it seemed as if much was made of the cat stalking around them. I felt there most be some reason for the cat being so frequently brought up here.
I'm still pondering about Zeena's taking over the house chores and responsibilities after the accident. I'm assuming that she was capable of this all along if the need had arisen, but that she preferred (whether consciously or subconsciously (thank you, Sigmund!)) to be the waited on rather than the waiter on. Having spent her energies taking care of Ethan's mother, perhaps she felt it was her turn to be taken care of, and illness was her way of getting that.However, it also appears that she is now happier than she was in her days of illness-dependency. Is the ultimate message we are to take from her change that Barbara Streisand was wrong and it's really people who are needed by people who are the luckiest people?
Do remember the passage from the introduction: "At intervals, however, the post-master would hand him an envelope addressed to Mrs. Zenobia-or Mrs. Zeena-Frome, and usually bearing conspicuously in the upper left-hand corner the address of some manufacturer of patent medicine and the name of his specific. These documents my neighbour would also pocket without a glance, as if too much used to them to wonder at their number and variety..."
Zeena may have put aside some of her illnesses, but apparently not all of them.
Also, I return again to Harmon:
"Somebody had to stay and care for the folks. There warn't ever anybody but Ethan. Fust his father-then his mother-then his wife."
"And then the smash-up?"
Harmon chuckled sardonically. "That's so. He had to stay then."
"I see. And since then they've had to care for him?"
Harmon thoughtfully passed his tobacco to the other cheek. "Oh, as to that: I guess it's always Ethan done the caring."
The House of Mirth also involves an apparent suicide.
Lily wrote: "Do remember the passage from the introduction:"At intervals, however, the post-master would hand him an envelope ..."
Zeena may have put aside some of her illnesses, but apparently not all of them...."
Good recollection. Of course, she may still believe herself ill but not be ill, but maybe she really does have chronic illnesses and has learned to overcome them. An ailment (or series of ailments) which lasts over a period of twenty-five years or so (he's fifty-two at the time of the story, and wasn't he in his 20s when they married?) either has a long term chronic illness, or is unable to believe that she isn't ill.
Silver wrote: "I cannot recall if it stated at the beginning, but is this purely just a reflection of what he has suffered, or are we to infer that he was actually physically scared by the accident? "Silver, the following is from the introduction regarding the injuries Ethan sustained in the sledding crash:
There was something bleak and unapproachable in his face, and he was so stiffened and grizzled that I took him for an old man and was surprised to hear that he was not more than fifty-two. I had this from Harmon Gow, who had driven the stage from Bettsbridge to Starkfield in pre-trolley days and knew the chronicle of all the families on his line.
"He's looked that way ever since he had his smash-up; and that's twenty-four years ago come next February," Harmon threw out between reminiscent pauses.
The "smash-up" it was-I gathered from the same informant-which, besides drawing the red gash across Ethan Frome's forehead, had so shortened and warped his right side that it cost him a visible effort to take the few steps from his buggy to the post-office window.
Lily wrote: "Silver wrote: "I cannot recall if it stated at the beginning, but is this purely just a reflection of what he has suffered, or are we to infer that he was actually physically scared by the accident..."Oh, that is right, thanks for bring that back to my recollection.
I agree that we really never know the reality of Zeena's illnesses. However, we do know, a bit, I believe, about their impact, real or not, upon her life and the lives of those about her.
Lily wrote: "I agree that we really never know the reality of Zeena's illnesses. However, we do know, a bit, I believe, about their impact, real or not, upon her life and the lives of those about her."Whether it's real or not (I lean towards not), I think the important point is how she uses it to manipulate others (which echoes your point, Lily, about its impact being the important thing here). Ethan very well might have left her if she didn't play the ill and dependent card so very well.
Lots of people do this- use a real or imagined illness to gather all the sympathy they possibly can. Often (and this is sad, I admit) I find that it's a person with a generally unsympathetic personality who does this- it seems it's the only way they can find positive attention.
I don't have much sympathy for Zeena either way. I've known too many people with grave illnesses who handled the situation with dignity and grace.
Everyman wrote: "Is the ultimate message we are to take from her change that Barbara Streisand was wrong and it's really people who are needed by people who are the luckiest people?"I'm happiest when I feel needed. I think many people are, even though they may not realize it, and think that they'd rather be the needy one!
Granted, the need to be needed can go too far, as one finds in severely overprotective parents who are never unable to let their children go . . . or the mother as martyr complex- "Oh no, you just go ahead and have fun; I'll be just fine here, cleaning the kitchen!"
Zeena seems to inhabit the worst of BOTH ends of this spectrum. I don't even know how she manages it.
Everyman wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "Bill wrote: "Incoming! Incoming!..."Sorry, but what does this mean Bill? I don't understand it or why Jaime thinks it was funny. (I'm a Brit y'know:):))"
It is what soldiers ca..."
Oh!! :D:D
If Zeena has an actual illness, wouldn't Wharton have mentioned it? I get the feeling that Zeena is a hypochondriac and that is one of the reasons we are steered towards having less sympathy for her. In the 1900s hypochondria may not have been seen as an illness in itself, and someone like Zeena might have been expected to 'pull herself together'.
MadgeUK wrote: "If Zeena has an actual illness, wouldn't Wharton have mentioned it? I get the feeling that Zeena is a hypochondriac and that is one of the reasons we are steered towards having less sympathy for h..."Yup. I think if she was really ill Wharton would have been more explicit about it.
MadgeUK wrote: "If Zeena has an actual illness, wouldn't Wharton have mentioned it? I get the feeling that Zeena is a hypochondriac and that is one of the reasons we are steered towards having less sympathy for h..."Well, I know Wharton did write an earlier version of this story, but I will also throw out a hypothesis based on the time she was putting it into its final form. At least historically, it has been difficult to diagnose when a mental illness has been "real." I suspect Wharton may have been living through some of that quandary relative to her husband. To the extent the story may have elements of her searching out her own options and the possible consequences, the reality or lack thereof of Zeena's illnesses has taken on an especial poignancy to me as a reader -- is there a "right" to escape or is there not?
