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Ethan Frome
Edith Wharton Collection
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Ethan Frome: Week 2 - Part II: Chapters V-IX + Epilogue
Sasha wrote: "Lily wrote: "The House of Mirth also involves an apparent suicide."Please be careful of spoilers!"
I didn't say whose or where in the story or even whether it actually occurs! If that is a spoiler to you, please know that it was only intended to indicate that suicide is a subject that Wharton has broached centrally in her stories elsewhere as well.
Bill wrote: "Is the OTT reviewer correct that Zeena has an evil spring of pleasure in seeing others pain that makes her a capable nurse...? "I wouldn't have gone there from the text. But then, I wouldn't have seen Zeena as a symbol of fate either.
True or false, right or wrong, correct or incorrect, interpretations like these, along with our own, just probe the text for me and help me ponder, although not necessarily accept, possibilities I might otherwise not have considered.
One of the places Wharton herself touches on the child-like nature of Mattie and Ethan's actions is in Chapter 9:They clung to each other's hands like children, and her body shook with desperate sobs.
Lily wrote: "Sasha wrote: "Lily wrote: "The House of Mirth also involves an apparent suicide."Please be careful of spoilers!"
I didn't say whose or where in the story or even whether it actually occurs! If ..."
I am not trying to be curmudgeonly, sorry.
S. Rosemary wrote: "I'm happiest when I feel needed."Well, come on out. I'll make you feel happier than you've ever been before in your life! :)
S. Rosemary wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "If Zeena has an actual illness, wouldn't Wharton have mentioned it? I get the feeling that Zeena is a hypochondriac and that is one of the reasons we are steered towards having les...Yup. I think if she was really ill Wharton would have been more explicit about it. "
I'm not so sure about that. I think leaving it ambiguous adds power to the story. If she isn't totally dishonest, she has at least seen several doctors, none of whom apparently have told Ethan that she was shamming it.
Sasha wrote: "Lily wrote: "The House of Mirth also involves an apparent suicide."Please be careful of spoilers!"
Hmmm. I've never considered talking about books we aren't reading or scheduled to read as spoilers. I do it sometimes to compare the current book to some other book, and have never considered it a no-no. Christopher, want to clarify here?
What was the state of prescription drugs at that time? Why did Zeena continue to seek new doctors, given their scant finances? (I think of people like them avoiding doctors if at all possible.)
Everyman wrote: "Hmmm. I've never considered talking about books we aren't reading or scheduled to read as spoilers. I do it sometimes to compare the current book to some other book, and have never considered it a no-no. Christopher, want to clarify here?"While I personally am virtually insensitive to spoilers (I often know a basic plot before I read a book), I know how sensitive others are to them, so as a practice I try to avoid what can be considered a spoiler, whether in a review or a commentary, unless it is clearly a review article where such is part of the game. Obviously, I don't always meet the criteria of others.
Everyman wrote: "S. Rosemary wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "If Zeena has an actual illness, wouldn't Wharton have mentioned it? I get the feeling that Zeena is a hypochondriac and that is one of the reasons we are steere..."From what we see within the book, I do not have the impression that Ethan himself ever spoke directly to the doctors. But rather I think he simply let Zeena go off to see these said doctors and she reported back to him what the doctors told her. I do not think Ethan ever even accompanied her to a doctors appointment, of course there is no way of really knowing that, but it does not seem to fit with what we are given.
As with her latest doctor visit, it seems a bit questionable to me that the doctor proscribed to her that she needed a hired girl, considering that fit so conveniently into Zeena's plans of what she herself had already predetermined she wanted.
Also back than if a woman was complaining to have this and that symptom, or be in pain, or feel such and such a way it was probably a lot harder for doctors to really determine if in deed they were faking or not. Particularly since it seems as if there was a certain degree of vagueness and delicacy in general in speaking about health problems relating to women.
I thought that was part of what made him admirable, Bill- he WAS willing to be loyal to her, despite it all.
Bill wrote: "Lily wrote: "They clung to each other's hands like children, and her body shook with desperate sobs. .."Wasn't that sad?
If Zeena was so bad as the narrators vision of her, does anyone really ..."
It may have been sad, but it was also childish, in the sense of not stepping up to adult responsibility and commitments. Such are sadly irrational ploys that sometimes underlie suicide attempts.
I am intrigued by Ruth Hale's final words:
...And I say, if she'd ha' died, Ethan might ha' lived; and the way they are now, I don't see's there's much difference between the Fromes up at the farm and the Fromes down in the graveyard; 'cept that down there they're all quiet, and the women have got to hold their tongues."
Bill wrote: "S. Rosemary wrote: "I thought that was part of what made him admirable, Bill- he WAS willing to be loyal to her, despite it all."But doesn't he owe anything to Mattie? It seems he would have fel..."
I do not think too much stalk should be put into Ethan's loyalty for I do not see it as something which is an intentional act upon his part, but rather as a mark of his passiveness which is displayed throughout the book, by the very fact that he remained within the dismal town for so long.
What else is he going to do but remain loyal to Zeena? Theoretically he does have other options, he and Mattie could have run off instead of thier fools attempt at suicide, he could just walk away, but we see this is not in Ethan's character and such has little to do with his loyalty to his wife.
He is not a man to truly take action, or to act out upon his dreams and desires, and whims, or he would not still be there in Starkfiled with Zeena in the position he is now in.
It is easier for him to simply accept the state of his own misery.
Silver wrote: "It is easier for him to simply accept the state of his own misery."You are harsher in your judgment of Ethan than I would be. Are you young? Life does trap people, even though I agree that Ethan had some windows of opportunity that he did not seize.
Rochelle wrote: "Jaime wrote: "I disagree. Ethan cheated and both he and Mattie acted like children. Neither knew what they wanted or had the words and sense to ask for the proper things, what they did ask for: a ..."And Shakespeare did the same thing with Romeo and Juliet at a time when teen love would not have been given consideration. I don't think this can be compared to her other work as it is so very different. The short answer is I don't know and I don't care as this discussion is about this novel, not her canon.
Bill wrote: "Sasha wrote: "I agree with Rochelle. I see the suicide attempt as the desperate impulse of two people with no hope for the future. Mattie may not be in love with Ethan, but she certainly fears the ..."
Or being a man and just putting his foot down and saying Mattie stays and I won't pay for a hired girl, period. During this time period he could have done that, in fact he almost did. But, he is weak and really reminds me very much of a child.
Everyman wrote: "Sasha wrote: "Lily wrote: "The House of Mirth also involves an apparent suicide."
Please be careful of spoilers!"
Hmmm. I've never considered talking about books we aren't reading or scheduled t..."
I agree as it's logical for most to read her most popular book next based on the interest many have after this one. I was considering it, but will put it off now until I forget about the comment. I thought it when I saw it, I just didn't say anything. I know it was by no means intentional, I'm just saying...
So most people consider kissing cheating and the only reason Ethan didn't leave Zeena is money (although would he have had the money been there no one can say).I think Ethan owed Zeena marriage not because they were physical but because she gave part of her life and possibly a chance of marriage to another up to help Ethan.
I think that Zeena likes being the strongest and was quite happy taking care of Mattie and Ethan and having ultimate control at the end. She seems to be her best when she's caring for others.
I think Mattie and Ethan couldn't imagine a life past that day so suicide seemed the only answer to them other than being adults and carrying on. I think an adult could keep himself/herself from succoming to this impossible relationship knowing there are others out there and thus not letting it go past friendship. I know I can do this and so can most adults, but most teens can't.
And I think when Zeena said the dish was the one thing she cared for most of all she meant it literally. The dish means more to her than Ethan IMO and represents the life she could have had.
Lily wrote: "Silver wrote: "It is easier for him to simply accept the state of his own misery."You are harsher in your judgment of Ethan than I would be. Are you young? Life does trap people, even though I ..."
Silver don't answer that...are you really going after the poster rather than the comment? Seriously? I have had 15 year olds with the insight that those 3 times their age don't have. It's really unacceptable for you to attack a poster based on assumed age as they don't think like you so they must be young and ignorant?
Life traps people who allow it to happen. Both young and old make both good and bad decisions every day. Age has nothing to do with it.
Jaime wrote: "The short answer is I don't know and I don't care as this discussion is about this novel, not her canon. "I mention her canon because Wharton was a serious writer and would not have written about two childish people who "got what they deserved." She always has an agenda behind her stories.
Jaime wrote: "Lily wrote: "Silver wrote: "It is easier for him to simply accept the state of his own misery."You are harsher in your judgment of Ethan than I would be. Are you young? Life does trap people, e..."
She was referring to experience. It's hard to understand certain emotions until you've lived through them yourself. I didn't understand this book when I was 19, but I see it completely differently at 64. I read Anne Tyler 30 years ago, and it was Greek to me. Now that I'm middle-aged, I understand her characters and what they're experiencing, and I've started reading her again..
Jaime, you see the characters in terms of black and white, and that wasn't Wharton's intention at all. She doesn't make judgments on her characters. Unless you've spent most of your life trapped in an endless loop of missed opportunities and inertia, you won't understand it. And you wouldn't like her other books, because all her characters are flawed, just like the rest of us. Silver--its pretty obvious Zeena is a hypochondriac, or she wouldn't have the stamina to take care of Mattie and Ethan.
Rochelle wrote: "Jaime, you see the characters in terms of black and white, and that wasn't Wharton's intention at all. She doesn't make judgments on her characters. Unless you've spent most of your life trapped in..."That's not true at all, it is your assumption that you are stating as fact. And I have read other Wharton novels, her being one of my favorite authors, another assumption...
Oh and btw none of us know her intentions.
Rochelle wrote: "Jaime wrote: "Lily wrote: "Silver wrote: "It is easier for him to simply accept the state of his own misery."You are harsher in your judgment of Ethan than I would be. Are you young? Life does ..."
That's true and some people go through more than a person should have to at a very young age. Once again age has nothing to do with it and I don't see why someone should have to answer such a rude and presumptive question as was asked.
Rochelle wrote: "Jaime wrote: "The short answer is I don't know and I don't care as this discussion is about this novel, not her canon. "I mention her canon because Wharton was a serious writer and would not have..."
It was decided by the moderator in the first discussion that this would be taken on its own merit. Are you the new moderator?
Jaime wrote: "Lily wrote: "Silver wrote: "It is easier for him to simply accept the state of his own misery."You are harsher in your judgment of Ethan than I would be. Are you young? Life does trap people, e..."
Jaime -- I am sorry you interpreted my comment as "going after the poster". Of course, in an online forum any poster has complete freedom to decide as to what posts she or he will respond. Silver might very well have answered, no, I'm not, but... My comment came from the perspective that I probably had views closer to hers when I was younger, so it was a question of curiosity (perhaps inappropriate in hindsight for a forum like this) rather than any intent whatsoever of minimizing her view, which is how I perceive you have interpreted it? (Perhaps I got led astray by an earlier discussion on changing attitudes over time to Ayn Rand's writings.)
Jaime wrote: "It was decided by the moderator in the first discussion that this would be taken on its own merit. Are you the new moderator? "This seems to me to smack a fair amount of going after the poster. I expect Christopher is busy or he would have stepped in and said, much more nicely than I can, time to move on, folks.
Lily wrote: but I will also throw out a hypothesis based on the time she was putting it into its final form..."I agree Lily - it is highly likely that EW was exploring in EF some of the problems she herself was facing vis a vis Edward's mental illness. Hermoine Lee suggests that he was a manic-depressive. He had a series of mental breakdowns before going completely insane. He also had a number of affairs.
My Notes say: 'Some critics have read the novel as a veiled autobiography where they have interpreted the likeness between Ethan's situation with his wife in the novel to Wharton's unhappy marriage to her husband Edward. She began writing EF in the early 1900s when she was still married...Wharton found the notion of the tragic sledding crash to be irresistible as a potention extended metaphor for the wrongdoings of a secret love affair.'
A number of Wharton's novels, especially The Age of Innocence contain details which her friends and biographers have interpreted as autobiographic so there is no reason why we should not think that EF contains similar details. It is, after all, something authors often do, and if we know their life stories we are likely to spot such details.
Rochelle wrote: ...its pretty obvious Zeena is a hypochondriac, or she wouldn't have the stamina to take care of Mattie and Ethan.Yes, it becomes increasingly obvious throughout the novel that Zeena is healthy enough to do quite a number of things, including travelling by herself to another town and, later, some heavy nursing, so it seems reasonable to assume that her illnesses are largely imaginary.
Does anyone see signs of manic-depression (bipolar disorder) in Ethan?
It's hard to understand certain emotions until you've lived through them yourself. I didn't understand this book when I was 19, but I see it completely differently at 64.
Very true Rochelle. Walk a mile in someone's moccasins....'. Like having the experience of a partner kissing someone else and not considering it to be cheating/adulterous. Or of having longings about another person. There is a whole gamut of emotions in this novel, some of which some of us will have experienced and which I suspect Wharton herself experienced. She wrote for instance of the intense longing she felt for Morton Fullerton, her lover, when they were apart, which is perhaps why she captures Ethan's longing so well.
Jaime wrote: 'It was decided by the moderator in the first discussion that this would be taken on its own merit.'Sorry, I don't know what this sentence means? What will be taken on its own merit and which first discussion - Adam Bede?
S. Rosemary wrote: "Lily wrote: "I agree that we really never know the reality of Zeena's illnesses. However, we do know, a bit, I believe, about their impact, real or not, upon her life and the lives of those about ..."You're very observant, S.
MadgeUK wrote: "I agree Lily - it is highly likely that EW was exploring in EF some of the problems ..."And the sledding incident (not accident) was based on a real sledding accident in which one woman was killed.
Madge wrote: "Does anyone see signs of manic-depression (bipolar disorder) in Ethan?"It would be the reverse, Madge. Ethan would be a stand-in for Edith and Zeena would be husband Teddy. And I don't see bipolarity (bipolarism?)in either one. She didn't have to use the same illness in the book.
What's interesting in that analogy is that in those 2 novels, the characters were stuck in their dilemma, but in real life Edith solved her problem. For many authors, the reverse is true: their novels represent wish fulfillment, a resolution only in print.
MadgeUK wrote: "Yes, it becomes increasingly obvious throughout the novel that Ze..."So you've read her letters? Which book?
Madge, in response to your question about Ethan and bi-polar, I think it's more likely to be straight out clinical depression and severe depression at that. He does not display any symptoms of mania, unless you mean the decision to crash the sled. I like to refer to those sort of decisions as 'brain explosions'.
Lily wrote: "Silver wrote: "It is easier for him to simply accept the state of his own misery."You are harsher in your judgment of Ethan than I would be. Are you young? Life does trap people, even though I ."
I disagree that Ethan is to blame for his own misery. I know exactly how it feels to be tied to a small town with "seven [generations of your family] under the ground," as the saying goes, and finding it enormously difficult to leave. I don't think that staying is a shameful choice that proves Ethan's inertia; I think he believed it to be the only possible choice, and it's a noble one.
I know I'm biased; my family has also lived on the same New England farm for generations. There is just no way to describe the pull of that on a person. I have moved away, and done something different with my life, but even in 2011 I can't pretend I wouldn't move back in an instant if my parents were ill, just as Ethan chose. Doesn't anyone else see some nobility in that?
OK, that's as impassioned as I'm ever going to get in a book group! Obviously I identify with Ethan way more than I should.
Sasha wrote: "Madge, in response to your question about Ethan and bi-polar, I think it's more likely to be straight out clinical depression and severe depression at that. He does not display any symptoms of mani..."It's not severe depression, as I've been there.
S. Rosemary wrote: "Lily wrote: "Silver wrote: "It is easier for him to simply accept the state of his own misery."You are harsher in your judgment of Ethan than I would be. Are you young? Life does trap people, e..."
I do not think that choosing the easier path is what I would consider to be Nobel particularly not since he had become such an unpleasant person for it. If he had appeared to make more of an effort to have a successful relationship with Zeena in spite of his hardships and her falling into being a hypochondriac, I think it would have been a bit more Nobel than the image of him just wallowing in his misery becasue he is too afraid to take a chance at breaking free.
While he may have not had a great deal of options presented to him and while there were difficulties. He could have left Starkfield with Zeena, he could have attempted his dreams to become an engineer, but there would be some risk involved and no guarantee of success, and may not have worked out, but it still would have been taking a chance to have a more fulfilled life.
But instead he thinks only of the obstacles in his way and comes up with excuses and thinks only of the reasons why he couldn't/shouldn't make those attempts to better his life.
S. Rosemary wrote: "I disagree that Ethan is to blame for his own misery. I know exactly how it feels to be tied to a small town with "seven [generations of your family] under the ground," as the saying goes.... "I'm with you, S. (May I call you S., even though we don't know each other well?) We have less control of our emotions and actions than we would like to think we have.
Bill wrote: "S. Rosemary wrote: "I don't think that staying is a shameful choice that proves Ethan's inertia; I think he believed it to be the only possible choice, and it's a noble one. ..."
When he's consid..."
The man at the beginning is 25 years older, and totally different.
These nested quotes are driving me nuts!!! We had one with 5 levels a few pages back!!
Three very fragile, tough human beings who made some troubling choices and ended up in virtually living death thereby -- a succinct little tragedy.
Perfect.And what's your own take on what Wharton is saying?
I don't have Hermione Lee's bio yet. Does anyone have a source on the web for a serious discussion of her books? Or even just this book? I keep finding 2 sentences here and 3 sentences there. :(
Rochelle wrote: "I don't have Hermione Lee's bio yet. Does anyone have a source on the web for a serious discussion of her books? Or even just this book? I keep finding 2 sentences here and 3 sentences there. :("Rochelle, there are a number of links on the background thread. The University of Virginia has quite a lot, but there are a number of others as well.
You might also try an advanced search on the .edu sites and bring us some additional ones.
Bill wrote: "Zeena seems to be getting on just fine at the end of the book"Well, if you call this "just fine":
One of them, on my appearing, raised her tall bony figure from her seat, not as if to welcome me-for she threw me no more than a brief glance of surprise-but simply to set about preparing the meal which Frome's absence had delayed. A slatternly calico wrapper hung from her shoulders and the wisps of her thin grey hair were drawn away from a high forehead and fastened at the back by a broken comb. She had pale opaque eyes which revealed nothing and reflected nothing, and her narrow lips were of the same sallow colour as her face....
[Zeena], who was just coming back to the table with the remains of a cold mince-pie in a battered pie-dish, set down her unappetising burden without appearing to hear the accusation brought against her....
[Mrs. Hale says:] And I say, if she'd ha' died, Ethan might ha' lived; and the way they are now, I don't see's there's much difference between the Fromes up at the farm and the Fromes down in the graveyard; 'cept that down there they're all quiet, and the women have got to hold their tongues."
Sounds a bit like the two women take each other on with their tongues -- shrewish hell, perhaps?
I am a bit confused on how to interpret Ethan might ha' lived.
Rochelle wrote: "Sasha wrote: "Madge, in response to your question about Ethan and bi-polar, I think it's more likely to be straight out clinical depression and severe depression at that. He does not display any sy..."Yes, I debated whether to add 'severe'. He would be immobilized by severe depression.
A little while ago Silver suggested Ethan's actions could not be described as noble. I agree with that. His situation was miserable and he lived way before the 'me' generation of self analysis and pop psychology. Nowadays, one of Ethan's friends may have gently suggested he see a shrink. As it was he just slid into a cycle of self-pity. Or perhaps people did try to jolly him along and he was impervious.
Lily wrote: "I am a bit confused on how to interpret 'Ethan might ha' lived. .'"Might have lived a life with some meaning and maybe even some joy. Maybe he would have left Zeena, or at least come to a peacable truce with her.
Sasha wrote: "A little while ago Silver suggested Ethan's actions could not be described as noble. I agree with that. His situation was miserable and he lived way before the 'me' generation of self analysis and ..."He took the only way out that he knew of, which was not to confront his dilemma at all. Suicide victims often don't think of the consequences to their families.
Here's something I found on Wharton, oddly at one of those book notes sites, so I don't know the author:She can perhaps best be described as a critic of moral recklessness, whether this recklessness causes one to lean toward conformity or toward rejection of conformity. Wharton wanted individuals to consider each moral decision on its own terms.
And that's why I feel there's a similarity in the themes of Frome and The Age of Innocence, and House of Mirth. She presents a character on the horns of a moral dilemma, torn between society's values and his own instincts. Often the wrong or foolish choices are made, sometimes compounded by even more wrong choices. Unhappiness or tragedy can ensue.
Of course I haven't read any cheerful Wharton books. :D :D :D Any suggestions?
Please be careful of spoilers!