Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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March Read 2011: Finding Zach
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I agree with you that checking in with him through his recovery would have been a good thing. I didn't like the jump at all. It just made it seem so unrealistic, almost as if the author didn't know how or didn't want to deal with how a barking human learns to speak and eat with a fork, knife, and spoon again.
The nicknames for EVERYONE drove me nuts. There were too many and they got confusing. Besides, who calls their parents by their first name anyway? Sure, David could call them Dick and Jane, but Zach too? That's not realistic to me.
And yes, his mom's voice wasn't real to me either. I had a lot of problems with his parents. The fact that they were there so much, and so annoying took away from the romance aspect of the novel. In the beginning, before he was kidnapped, right when he's first kissing David, that whole scene didn't work for me. David was only 19, yet he acted like he was 30. (Believe me, I spend my day with teens of all ages, and 19 year olds don't back off from a kiss if they really want it. His excuse didn't ring true.) Once Zach leaves, his parents arrive out of nowhere like they've been stalking him, and start talking to David, and that whole scene blew my mind because I don't see teens having that kind of talk with the parents of the boy they like. It just doesn't happen unless there are extreme circumstances. But, Zach was 15, and all they did was kiss. His parents weren't homophobic, otherwise I could see it happening.
That scene, especially, just seemed to bug the heck out of me for being unrealistic entirely.
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I agree with you on this as well. Mike needed to be in there more often. In the beginning you have a sense that he's going to be a major character... and then he's not. wtf?
The same thing goes for the reporter. That should have been much bigger, and it wasn't, which was disappointing.
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YES! I know I already mentioned the nicknames confusing the heck out of me, but that one especially! Where on earth did Jenny come from?! And realy... who cares?
Most of the characters were really flat, I have to agree, which didn't help anything at all.
I also agree with Josh's thought that the novel would have been better if we'd started it TWO YEARS LATER and then flashed back in time. Otherwise, that jump is disturbing.
When I write, I try to make sure all my character POVs get somewhat equal time slots. And it didn't work for me to be in Richard's head for so short a time. And seeing that relationship grow between him and Zach would have probably been a better story all around, really. Way more realistic, I think.
The other thing that bugged me, now that I think back on it, was everyone's jokes to Richard later on about being gay. He says he's not, sure, I'll believe him, but he didn't seem so straight to me the way she wrote him. And, maybe that's because we didn't get to see his friendship grow with Zach, to be absolutely sure he was straight, you know? Does that make any sense?
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I love the honesty of this.
It's risky doing a story like this because so m..."
I LOVE angst, and I felt cheated of it. I definitely wanted more of that recoup time. It just felt angry after the first chapter.
When I read the first page, I think I almost had a heart attack. I was really excited because it seemed like something I would really like. And of course, since I wrote something similar awhile back, I wanted to compare the two, and was extra sure I would like it. But it didn't measure up at all. His recover was just too "magical" even though she tried not to have it come out that way.
I think if David had flown to the hospital in the beginning, that would have been SUCH a different book, lots more angst, less anger, and I would have enjoyed it more. Plus, having his parents hovering around would not have been so annoying because it would have been more expected that they would.
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Well, most moving moment. It's usually little gestures that gets to me, so I was really moved at the beginning by the military guys noticing Zach's discomfort and the..."
And... I just realized that I think I've been mixing up character names. Oh boy. lol, when I said Richard, I meant the military guy who saves him and then comes to visit. Oiy.
Anyway, The scenes with his shrink just further annoyed me. I found them boring, unnecessary, and annoying. I didn't get anything out of them except that his parents were too overbearing and meddling, which, I already got that sense from every other scene with them. No need to pile it on. I almost didn't see a need for the shrink to be in his life, the way he'd dramatically changed in two years. To go from a barking dog to speaking human, I mean. And that's a short time for someone that deeply affected to change. Waaaayyyyy too short. If he was still partially barking dog, then the shrink scenes would have probably been more interesting, especially if they didn't happen quite so frequently. They seemed to be something to add word count to the book.
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I found it so strange that the wife of Richard's former partner worked for them as a live-in-maid sort of positi..."
I found that odd too with Annie as the maid. The other thing I found odd was that they reportedly lived on a ranch, yet they never called it a ranch. I don't care if there are horses or fields of grain or not. It's a ranch. The use of the word "compound" really irked me. Because to me a compound is a place where secret things happen, and/or a place where you go and don't ever return from. Gosh, sounds more like the place Zach was held prisoner to me!
Unless "compound" is an English word used in England to mean a ranch. That's one of my pet peeves, when writers who live in England write a book set in Las Vegas and start calling the trunk of a car a "boot". you have to know your location. The first time I read "boot" in a story I stopped and went wtf?!?! To me, a "boot" is either a shoe for a foot, or the yellow thing that goes on a car tire to keep the car from going anywhere if you haven't paid your parking meter or whatever.
Anna wrote: "I think if David had flown to the hospital in the beginning, that would have been SUCH a different book, lots more angst, less anger, and I would have enjoyed it more."Maybe I don't remember correctly but I think David went to the hospital at the beginning but when Zach heard of it he reacted in a bad way and David thought it was because he was angry with him for sending him away. Or something like that?
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There are two ways this story could have gone: 1. we cover the first two years and end up with something extremely angsty to make everyone cry. 2. We start at two years later and have a few flash backs every now and then, and end up with something a little more light and romantic to read.
Either one of these, I think, would have been preferable to what we got, which was sort of a mix between the two. I love angst, but I could read the other just as well.
And, now that I've got my notes in front of me and I'm not responding to other's comments, here's some other things that didn't work for me: A lot of the dialogue, especially with the parents seemed like too much explaining what had already happened, too much repetition of things I already knew, and it didn't seem realistic to me.
There was a scene in the middle where Jane mysteriously shows up in Annie's house, as if she's spent the night. Um..... that made no sense to me. Where was her husband? Why didn't she spend the night with him? Plus, the whole scene (though I've forgotten what they talked about) didn't seem necessary for the book. I could have done without it.
I didn't find the epilogue important either, actually. I knew all that was going to happen, and it wasn't anything exciting that I wanted to read about. The final chapter by itself would have been the perfect ending, and a perfect epilogue since it was sooooo short. Too short to be a chapter, unless all of her chapters had been of a similar length. I just found that chapter length to be odd, and it threw me when I got to it.
Oh yeah, (lol, thank God for notes!) I mentioned my pet peeve of English words making it into American settings and there's one that did, that I know of for sure. I don't know anyone who talks about having "elevenses", as in afternoon tea or whatever. It just made me think of Lord of the Rings when Sam is asking if they can stop for all these snacks while they're on a journey in a time crunch. I think it was the father that used the term here. Thankfully, I only noticed two words, otherwise I would have been even more annoyed.
As for the nicknames, again, if you have to have them, they need to be few and far between, or recognizable. My best friend's mom always calls my parents Mr. and Mrs. D. which is the first letter of their last name. That makes sense to me, and would have been more recognizable here. And, the story is about Zach and David, so we don't need to know that his father calls his mother Jenny, which only serves to confuse the reader, right along with Annie/DB.
I'm also wondering where the anger came from. To go from scared to angry seems odd. I know, I know, two year gap, but that gap makes it seem more sudden. Now I don't pretend to know anything about getting over PTSD or anything remotely close, but it seems to me he should still be somewhat scared. If he'd been raped once or twice and let go, anger would make more sense. But not so much here. At least to me anyway.
The title seemed misleading too. Zach was lost for all of two seconds before they found him. I think if we'd stayed within the first two years, finding Zach beneath his dog persona would have fit the title in more ways than one.
Well, I seemed to have spewed a lot of negative stuff about the book. I want to say that the premise was really good and it had a lot of promise, I just don't think it was carried out as well as it could have been. I had to push myself to read it every night. It was easy to put it down, and I would have done that for good early on if it weren't for this book discussion group. I felt the second half was better than the first, but it still needed help.
Anyway, I feel like my comments are all over the place, so I hope they make sense!
Emanuela ~Zstyx~ wrote: "Anna wrote: "I think if David had flown to the hospital in the beginning, that would have been SUCH a different book, lots more angst, less anger, and I would have enjoyed it more."Maybe I don't ..."
David did fly out to where Zach was (David was in New Zealand at the time). He arrived and Zach freaked out. During one of his internal monologues, Zach played it out on how he thought the General had finally found David and was torturing David, would kill David. Which is why he freaked.
The meeting is never face to face, and isn't really played up other than to explain why David hadn't seen Zach since he'd been taken.
Anna wrote: "The title seemed misleading too. Zach was lost for all of two seconds before they found him. I think if we'd stayed within the first two years, finding Zach beneath his dog persona would have fit the title in more ways than one. "I'm thinking the title wasn't just in the literal sense, but the journey to finding the real Zach locked inside. Though it didn't play well, Zach was heavily locked down, not sharing what had happened to him with anyone, locking his family out, being someone totally different from his 15 year old self. I think what the title was supposed to represent is how Zach began to open up, began to have dreams and hopes for the future, began to show signs of returning in some aspects to how he was at 15.
There's a lot of interesting points here. I don't believe there's only one way to experience PTSD. People vary & causes are different. A POW or soldier who at least have the benefit of military training, will react differently than a child or a teen. A person who has PTSD because they witnessed a horrific event like 9-11 will be in a different place than someone who was tortured.Since there has only been a handful of cases of kidnapped children or teen who were held for a long period of times & lived to talk about it, there's a lot yet to discover about these unique cases. Each of these survivors appears to have handled their recovery differently. So I'm not bothered by the fact Zach's seeing his psych. 7 times a week or his 'miraculous' recovery etc.
I'm also not as bothered by Zach's talking again either because his barking stemmed from an emotional not a physical cause.
I think the psychiatrist therapy scenes were more than enough for me and I'm glad the story did not give us any more of them, and kept his individual therapy off the pages. It's a fictional story not a psych paper.
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Maybe I don't ..."
Right! I'd forgotten that he did that. Well, I was really thinking if he'd stayed with him for those two years. That's what I meant to say.
I think David was afraid of being a negative presence and he didn't insist on meeting Zach. That's what I would have done too if I had been David. I find hard to believe that there was no way that this initial misunderstanding could be made right. I am in the minority probably because I am glad I didn't see what happened to Zach in those two years. Seeing him cruising bars and engaging with men by his own rules was for me a sufficient sign that he wasn't hurting all by himself, refusing every contact with other people. That would have made it very hard to read. Clearly what Zach was doing wasn't probably very romantic or fulfilling, but he was dealing with his needs and emotions.
Emanuela ~Zstyx~ wrote: "I think David was afraid of being a negative presence and he didn't insist on meeting Zach. That's what I would have done too if I had been David. I find hard to believe that there was no way that ..."I agree with you. I did not need those 2 years to be shown. As I've said earlier it would be too depressing especially when your ultimate goal is to write a romantic story.
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Yes, I found the leap in time disappointing. It's not that I needed every day...it's just that some major events were passed over -- when David tries to see Zach, for example.
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It's the kind of thing that has to be used sparingly, I think.
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Yes, I think when something is this ambitious you almost have to give the author credit for trying to tackle something a bit more emotionally complex. It's the kind of project that really does require a very good editor (meaning experienced) because it's easy for an author to get lost in the emotions and angst. So we had a lot of the same thing over and over again. Much of that could have been cut, and it's place we could have explored some of the earlier scenes that were left out.
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That's one reason why cutting the first meeting between David and Zach -- the one where Zach is screaming and in panic was such a strange choice from both a dramatic and a structural standpoint. We really needed to see that contrast to appreciate Zach as the Ice Queen.
And yes that scene was too short as well. Because, as you say, this is the scene we're waiting for. This is IT.
Zach and Richard. I agree that their scenes worked. Like Audra said Richard's first reaction to the news they found Zach was plausible. Reading about the daily sessions with the shrink, I got the impression that Richard was in general more aware of what was happening, while Jane seemed more sheltered (or sheltering?). I wasn't enthusiast about her.
Jane felt like the typical Mom in a Book character. Richard felt real -- and that scene where he learns Zach is alive, that was almost visceral. It was really well done.
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That would have been the quickest, cleanest way to write it -- and it would have been my recommendation.
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The panic attacks were very well done, I agree. And I agree that the author didn't try to gloss over the roadblocks to recovery or the fact that Zach would be healing a long time -- probably forever. She didn't try to candycoat anything.
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I think Richard is a very important character in this story. We get to kno..."
Yes, I loved the relationship between those two. It was done well.
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..."
Yes. I totally thought that was the way it was going to play out in the first chapter, so it was very refreshing to see it go another way.
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No! Not at all. That's the point of book discussion is everyone speaks up and shares their thoughts. Some of it will be repetition, but a lot of it catches or focuses on something new.
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The passing POV. Yes, that was one reason why I misread Lt. Mike's importance in the story. We were actually in his POV -- now that could have worked in a prologue, come to think of it, although omniscient would be the obvious choice there...
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I found it so strange that the wife of Richard's former partner worked for them as a live-in-maid sort of position. That just ..."
Hmmm. It does seem rather an awkward arrangement, now that you mention it. :-D
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I studied Clinical Psychology to be a psychologist a while back (although it didn't work out). One thing that bothers..."
Yeah, the psychology stuff was not terribly well researched, in my opinion (having done well hell of a lot of research myself in that area).
But I think we were supposed to assume that there were sessions going on all the time that we weren't privvy too, right? That was what I figured, anyway. That we were only seeing the family sessions because those were the ones moving the story along?
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Very good. Yep. That's all about the pacing and the structure, and that's really -- for me -- where the story couldn't quite deliver. I really did like the story the author was trying to tell -- it's powerful in its potential.
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I found Finding Zach to be poor, honestly. I hate criticizing authors in public, so I'll refrain from ..."
I think it's great that you're joining in the discussion, and speaking for myself, I know I have a tendency to get a little too clinical about stories and storytelling. I'm like the dentist who no longer sees the smile, only the gum disease.
I'm not familiar with Megan Derr.
That was what I figured, anyway. That we were only seeing the family sessions because those were the ones moving the story along?And yet, I don't think those sessions move the story at all and I think learning about his individual sessions are more important. I'd love to read how the therapist would address Zach's bar hopping & dangerous driving issue. Also, the part about meeting David should be done in private session, not in front of his parents.
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Right. That's right.
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Still seems strange that the story does not tell us about his individual sessions at all.
I think this is my main dis..."
This, of course, is the challenge of trying to write both a romance and a story that deals fairly and realistically with something like...torture. It's a tricky balance of trying to keep the story focused ont he building of a relationship and yet not short-change the story of recovery from abuse.
I think more therapy sessions shown would have stopped the action in the story & kept it quite static. I think there are some things you can figure out for yourself & both Zach & David had a very clear idea why Zach chose to barhop & to choose anonymous partners where he was the one in charge sexually. This was Zach's way of coping and in many respects a perfectly valid way of doing it (with safety in mind). I don't think a therapist analyzing what is fairly obvious would have added too much value to the story.
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It could simply be that she's too close to it to write convincingly about it. That's one possibility. The other is that because it's something she's been through, she felt a need to beef it up for fiction, when in fact leaving it just understated and real would have been more effective storytelling.
It's always funny (well, maybe funny's not the word the author would use) when something the author has really gone through strikes readers as unrealistic.
I guess it ultimately gets down to how well you translate your research for the reader -- even in the case where the "research" is your own life experiences.
With this kind of ultra-dramatic storyline, I think less is actually more.
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An example would be Red-Tainted Silence which I hated for veering into that category.
Yes! I'm so glad she didn't turn torture into a kink.
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It doesn't help that everyone in the book has the same voice, same phrasing, swears the same way...
Example of a conversation that would NEVER happen between a straight army guy and a gay guy:
"Well, I don't get the whole gay thing, but that guy is
totally into you."
The background music of World Domination ran
uncontested a long moment. Then Zach said, "Taff is not into
me."
Mike hooted in laughter. "He so is. My God, I thought he
was going to punch my lights out."
"He's got a boyfriend in New York."
"He said he was going on a date tonight."
"Well, yeah... I think he thinks he's broken up with the guy
in New York, but I don't think he really has."
"I think he's lyin' about the date tonight." Mike took a
swallow of beer. "Seriously. He just said that because he's
jealous."
"You're full of shit," Zach said.
"Nope. I bet he's sittin' at home with your picture in his
hands, snifflin' into his hankie."
ETC.
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Josh wrote: "From my notes again:It doesn't help that everyone in the book has the same voice, same phrasing, swears the same way...
Example of a conversation that would NEVER happen between a straight a..."
I almost forgot about that conversation. I remember I couldn't stop rolling my eyes at the repetitive 'I don't get the whole gay thing'
Josh wrote: "Question: Do you believe Zach and David will stay together?"I only got about 10% into the book and didn't see any way that it could be resolved to my satisfaction - meaning that I would believe in the HEA/HFN with it being realistic - that I stopped reading.
I could be missing out, and may have been pleasantly surprised, but I wasn't in the mood to find out at the time. Unfortunately.
Josh wrote: "Question: Do you believe Zach and David will stay together?"They don't lack determination ...
but other than that, I don't know. Trauma can be unpredictable, it can rear its ugly head when you least expect it. It's never completely going to go away, and both Zach and David still have many hurdles to tackle.
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Maybe one solo session and one family session? I don't know. It wasn't the therapy scenes I wanted more of -- but that can be really well done. Remember Ordinary People by Judith Guest? Some excellent scenes in there, and a very skilled mix of flashback and real time.
Anyway, I was reading this as a romance novel, so I really wanted the scenes with David and Zach. Especially those very first scenes because that's where the true heartwrenching angst lies. You get a miracle and your lover comes back from the grave, only guess what? He can't stand to see you. He doesn't want you any more...he'd rather sleep with anonymous strangers than talk to you.
Terrible, terrible stuff.
Josh wrote: I'm like the dentist who no longer sees the smile, only the gum disease.
I can't turn off my inner editor either, and I'm rather picky. Under different circumstances, I'm happy ruthlesslessly dissecting fiction, especially mainstream fiction.
However, not actually being an author, forget about an m/m author, I feel extremely indebted to the people who at least make the effort to write, and write m/m. It's important to me to have them write in this genre, I know it's not an easy choice to make (I just wish most of them were better at it :)).
So it's important to me that others, especially people with the credentials and the skills take the time to actually provide what feedback they can. I can't tell you how much I appreciate you doing all you do to help, and that goes for others providing feedback in this forum. It's goodness, I feel.
I'm not familiar with Megan Derr.
I'm guessing little-known because she writes m/m, and doesn't have the huge mainstream infrastructure behind her (I really feel a disconnect when I see the best-seller lists and what's popular and selling out there).
It's true of all the truly talented m/m authors who deserve wide-spread recognition, but are placed in this narrow niche. I chafe so at this...
Anita wrote: "Josh wrote: "Question: Do you believe Zach and David will stay together?"They don't lack determination ...
but other than that, I don't know. Trauma can be unpredictable, it can rear its ugly hea..."
and, honestly ...
I try not to think too much about what happens after a book. I'm happy with HFN situations
and will happily move on to the next story :)
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I only got about 10% into the book and didn't see any way that it could be resolved to my satisfaction - meaning that I wo..."
I think the author does a good job of making you believe that David and Zach will certainly do their best to make it work. It would be too unbelievable if she started throwing rainbows and confetti, but the story ends on an upbeat note and it's very hopeful.
Josh wrote: "Question: Do you believe Zach and David will stay together?"I don't know but I'm not really optimistic. Zach is now on a good way to get better and has goals in his life again as the epilog showed. Maybe it is now David who has some developing to do. He was starring in the role of saint for a traumatized Zach. This might not fit for their future.
Question: Do you believe Zach and David will stay together? I don't know. I don't think David is what Zach needs though. Much as I like him, David is too emotional for Zach. Half of the time David was angsting about whether Zach loved him or not. Sometimes I feel that David focused on his feeling more than he focused on Zach and what Zach's need. I think Zach needs someone who is more cool headed and patient and put Zach's needs before his own.
When Zach met David again, his emotional development had been stunted by his capture, which was one of the reason he had not outgrown his first love to David. So, it was possible that given time, Zach would fall out of love with David. He was very young when he first fall in love with him. I could see the same thing happening to David. He was unable to genuinely forge a relationship with other people because he was obsessed with Zach - out of guilt, perhaps? If Zach had not been captured, it was possible that they would eventually fall out of love.
However, whether the relationship last or not is not the point of the book, I think. And it's not the author's shortcoming that she is unable to make us sure they will stay together. In life, it is very hard to predict a relationship, even with people who don't have as many issues as Zach. KA Mitchell explored it wonderfully in her REgularly Scheduled Life where a trauma almost broke an otherwise a stable relationship. In Zach's case, it is possible that the opposite is true, that he would grow out of DAvid as he overcame his trauma.
Josh wrote: "Question: Do you believe Zach and David will stay together?"I think the book ends optimistically so it does seem like Zach & David will stay together. I think the fact that they survived the separation when Zach goes to school on his own, points to this fact. If the romance was going to fall apart, that would probably have been the point where it would happen.
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I think the book ends optimistically so it does seem like Zach & David will stay together. I think the fact that they sur..."
UNTIL LT MIKE REALIZES HE *IS* GAY AND COMES A-CALLIN' :-D
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Ouch. Yes. That was one of the reasons I wished she hadn't had him be 15 when he was abducted.
I could see the same thing happening to David. He was unable to genuinely forge a relationship with other people because he was obsessed with Zach - out of guilt, perhaps? If Zach had not been captured, it was possible that they would eventually fall out of love.
Very sad, but very true.
Josh wrote: "Yvonne wrote: "Josh wrote: "Question: Do you believe Zach and David will stay together?"I think the book ends optimistically so it does seem like Zach & David will stay together. I think the f..."
Oh no!!! LOL. Your post on the conversation did make me laugh. I kept thinking maybe Lt Mike may not be so straight. Also it's possible that Zach & Mike had a little bromance going. I wish we could have seen some of those emails that they were supposedly passing back and forth between them.
Q&A with Josh Lanyon
Books mentioned in this topic
The Silmarillion (other topics)Finding Zach (other topics)
Savior (other topics)
Finding Zach (other topics)
Hm. Maybe...But I don't think so, at least as far as the PTSD goes. I didn't get a chance to re-read this one for this wkend, but...There are a lot of things involved with PTSD that I don't recall seeing play out in Zach. For instance, the big thing with PTSD is your triggers. Your life revolves around learning and avoiding your triggers because you will do almost *anything* to avoid the panic attacks, the flashbacks, etc. They're that bad. Plus, you have one in public, everybody thinks your nuts. Even if you can explain the behavior (which is horrible), they think your nuts. Damaged. Whatever. So you are 100% obsessed with your triggers and those triggers can be anything. I mean, one of mine was a specific scent. One whiff of sawdust and I was a goner. I just don't remember seeing that obsession with triggers in Zach.
You can have panic attacks without having PTSD, though. That, I can see, but this book just didn't scream experiential knowledge of PTSD to me, at least not the book I recall reading.