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The Wise Man's Fear - Theories
message 101:
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Sophie
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Mar 25, 2011 02:41PM
It was a bit fuzzy but apparently Lyra was taken prisoner by the ennemy. Later Lanre told Selitos his wife died because of him (Lanre, that is.), and he gained his powers trying to get her back.
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I sense some connection between Lyra's capture, the Moon's capture, and Haliax being depicted with the ever changing moon. His betrayal seems like it could only be explained by him talking to Cthulu(you know who I mean), especially since Haliax has been described as 'sane,' i.e. being perfectly aware of reality (since Cthulu--Can't remember his actual name--only speaks the truth).The Fae don't seem like guardians of humanity, after all, and Bast's fear of the Cthulu(what's his frekin name!?) would probably be based on harm Cthulu(I'm just going to stick with this) could do to the fae realm, rather than the harm he could do to humans. Wouldn't that sugguest that he had a hand in the original war for the moon?
Sanjiv wrote: "I sense some connection between Lyra's capture, the Moon's capture, and Haliax being depicted with the ever changing moon. His betrayal seems like it could only be explained by him talking to Cthu..."His name is impossible to spell or pronounce. I simply refer to him as the tree oracle.
Sanjiv wrote: "Anthony (74) wrote: "Her smile faded. “but one shaper was greater than the rest. for him the making of a star was not enough. he stretched his will across the world and pulled her from her home.”] ..."Lanre paused. "My wife is dead. Deceit and treachery brought me to it, but her death is on my hands." He swallowed and turned to look out over the land.
NotW pg. 179
Not much more than that, I'm afraid.
Mod
From NOTW:
Kote turned. "What can any of them know about her?" he asked softly. Chronicler's breath stopped when he saw Kote's face. The placid innkeeper's expression was like a shattered mask. Underneath, Kote's expression was haunted, eyes half in this world, half elsewhere, remembering.
Chronicler found himself thinking of a story he had heard. One of the many. The story told of how Kvothe had gone looking for his heart's desire. He had to trick a demon to get it. But once it rested in his hand, he was forced to fight an angel to keep it. I believe it, Chronicler found himself thinking. Before it was just a story, but now I can believe it. This is the face of a man who has killed an angel.
Sigh. All sorts of parallels to Lanre.
I don’t think this story is going to end with rainbows and happy lesbian unicorns.
"...happy lesbian unicorns."Ha ha ha. That's funny. I'm hoping that the Denna/Kvothe thing does not turn in to a Luke/Leia thing in that Denna turns out to be Meluan Lackless's daughter. Mayhap THAT is why they have never kissed.
Let's avoid the awkwardness we all felt after the Luke and Leia kiss but not having Denna and Kvothe lock lips. It would save us the cring-factor and lots of mouthwash.
Mary wrote: "That's sound a lot like Kvothe- I assume he is somehow responsible for Denna's (or at least an angel's) death. From NOTW:
Kote turned. "What can any of them know about her?" he asked softly. C..."
What if Auri's the angel? Complete tangent, not related to Denna at all, but still. I don't get angelic vibes from Denna. :P
Allen wrote: "Mary wrote: "That's sound a lot like Kvothe- I assume he is somehow responsible for Denna's (or at least an angel's) death. From NOTW:
Kote turned. "What can any of them know about her?" he as..."
Interesting side note, what if Lanra's wife is not dead, only her name changed or hidden from Haliax.
also, the whole coincidence with the moon, and Lanra's wife Lyra... And also..Auri! which has something to do with the moon, also I get the feeling like Elodin has been keeping Auri hidden under the University from "People" and when Kvothe tells of her name, it hits too close to home for Elodin. Just a guess
I think Caudicus could be Master Ash, He travels to study history he knows alot about the old families, it would explain his long disappearances, where he gets his money from, maybe explain Denna's interest in magic because Caudicus is an arcanist. Denna also mentions doing research for him in old genealogies pg.493. Coincidence maybe but I think he is just an unknowing tool of the Chandrian. If he would poison The Maer why not hit women. I think Bredon is Amyr, I think this is why Bredon goes away the same time as Denna around pg 425 he suspects Caudicus and Denna by association, it also explains the pagan rituals old Amyr traditions perhaps. I think Caudicus dies, but I suspect his not really dead.
How or why did the university pay for the giant mental institution? For the life of me I can't remember if that was ever answered, though I'm sure Elodin posed the question.Arttakra wrote: "I think Caudicus could be Master Ash"
That's disgusting. A perfect theory, and you've won me over to it, but it still gives me the shivers. But I do wonder what Denna has to learn from him though, given that he obviously hasn't been teaching her 'magic' or the like.
Gaard(108): would a true 'name change' = death anyway?
generally related, though I can't verbalize a transition: I'm sure the next book will reveal a battle between the 'good guys' and the 'bad guys.' The bad guys are clearly the Chandrian, and since Cinder was somehow interested in making trouble for the Maer, perhaps they're related to the King of Vint (and later Ambrose?). The good guys would then be the Fae like Bast, and I only assume Bredon is connected to them, given his rituals in the forest.
I've mentioned this in another thread, but I have this theory that Elodin is actually Taborlin the Great who changed his name, and that name changed cracked him. We don't know how old Elodin is other than in NOTW Kvothe says he's a dozen years younger than the other masters. So say Elodin is at the youngest 40, and oldest 50. Since Taborlin the great stories have been around at least since Kvothe was a kid, 17 years, that puts Elodin at 23-33 years old as Taborlin...since he was admitted to the arcanum at 14...I think that's a great time line. And to put into the fact that Kvothe's stories are in his life time. Plus perhaps if you are a great namer, you don't age as fast...that's pure speculation. I also think that he is Taborlin, because Auri has been slowly giving Kvothe all of Taborlin's tools the key the coin and the candle. I think since Elodin knows Auri too, he's been slipping these things to Kvothe through Auri.another line of thinking i've had is that Taborlin/ELodin was of the amyr... I also think Lorren is Amyr and he's been pruning the archives of books on the Amyr and the Chandrain.
So how about that coin, eh? I'm sure Auri didn't give Kvothe Taborlin's specific coin, but they may have been from the same source, and be of the same material--Perhaps the same material the Adem's really old swords are made of. Perhaps that will come in handy when it comes to binding and sympathy.I wonder where Auri does get her stuff though. Does she rob it from the surface, or from the underthing?
Hi! I'm new to the group and have a question I'd like to share:The moon.
Where is it?
I've been going over the "present day" passages in both books and I can't find any references to moonlight in any of the outdoor scenes. More telling, NotW, Chapter 1 (A place for Demons) says:
"Looking up, he saw a thousand stars glittering in the deep velvet night with no moon."
As we learned in WMF, a night with no moon is extremely dangerous. Sooo...could it be that Kvothe's actions somehow led to the moon being pulled completely into Fae, and that is why creatures like the Scrael and other demons are crossing over more frequently. Can anyone find references to the contrary? I wouldn't expect the villagers to mention it since they seem to willfully ignore strange events and omens. Thoughts?
This is a great catch...I never thought about the moon being completely in the Fae, it brings an interesting spin on the lockless box, and Kvothe being the heir to the box. If the moon is now completely in the fae, then we could presume, kvothe had something to do with it. This could explain how Bast is able to be in the mortal world this whole time.
I really like this theory. It is a really good observation.
@ Brenna,Your theory got me really excited for a while, but then i finally found a reference to the moon near the end of WMF. When chronicler is in Bast's room there is a line that says "metal gleamed faintly in the dim moonlight" (WMF,985). So, by the second night of story telling, the moon is in the sky.
Secondly, in the same scene, Bast swears by "the ever moving moon".
Finally, according to felurian, it seems like when the moon is full in the mortal realm, the faen can pass from the fae to mortal. Conversely, when the there is no moon in the mortal realm, mortals can pass into fae. So in order for "demons" to continually cross into the mortal realm, the moon would have to be full at all times.
Great observation, but unfortunately, i don't think it holds up :(
Gaard wrote: "This is a great catch...I never thought about the moon being completely in the Fae, it brings an interesting spin on the lockless box, and Kvothe being the heir to the box. If the moon is now comp..."Fae can be in the human world for any period of time. Felurian explains this when Kvothe is leaving. She mentions that some Fae live in the human world and just blend in.
I believe that Bredon is a red herring.There has been a clear history of Kvothe making assumptions about people's guilt based on what he sees and not what he feels, Stapes and Devi specifically.
But we also know that what he senses and does with his sleeping mind is where his greatest power lies. I think Cinder/Ash is given, what Kvothe names he names well. When he saw Cinder in the Eld, he new there was something about him, no such suspicion occurs with Bredon.
I do think at some point he may come to believe that Bredon is Ash, but I think he will be wrong and the worse for it.
Gaard wrote: "I've mentioned this in another thread, but I have this theory that Elodin is actually Taborlin the Great who changed his name, and that name changed cracked him. We don't know how old Elodin is ot..."Another theory I can't buy into. Elodin does talk about his age when he came to the the university, fourteen I think, but I am brain dead and can't pull the quote atm, and when Kvothe asks him if he remembers the first time he spoke the name of the wind in Book 1 this was the response, "He Smiled, 'The name of the wind came to me when I was arguing with Elxa Dal. When I shouted it his brazers exploded in a cloud of burning ash and cinder.'" He was a student under Dal. Seems pretty contradictory to me.
I remember Elodin being 14 too when he came to university too. That confused me, because I thought Kvothe was known as the youngest person to be accepted...or was it the youngest person to be kicked out?
Sanjiv wrote: "I remember Elodin being 14 too when he came to university too. That confused me, because I thought Kvothe was known as the youngest person to be accepted...or was it the youngest person to be kick..."Looks like PR coverd this one pretty well as usual. I was just reviewing that part, and Kvothe doesn't claim to be the youngest to enter the University, the quote is, "I was expelled from the University at a younger age than most people are allowed in." The way its written, he isnt the youngest in or out, but he was still exceptional. Pretty neat trick.
Michael wrote: "Sanjiv wrote: "I remember Elodin being 14 too when he came to university too. That confused me, because I thought Kvothe was known as the youngest person to be accepted...or was it the youngest pe..."PR is just a goddamn genius.
Hey, give me a decade to work on something, and I'd seem like a genius too.Gosh, I hope it doesn't take another four years for the third book, but it'd be worth it.
Sanjiv wrote: "Hey, give me a decade to work on something, and I'd seem like a genius too.Gosh, I hope it doesn't take another four years for the third book, but it'd be worth it."
Ha, too true, same goes for everyone I guess :) still there's no denying he's got a way with words, see: "Hespe's mouth went firm. She didn't scowl exactly, but it looked like she was getting all the pieces of a scowl together in one place, just in case she needed them in a hurry." He could have just said "pensive" or "tense" or something of the like. Instead he does that. Like I said, goddamn genius. *grumbles jealously*
And whether it's a year or ten till book 3 I'll have no problem so long as it lives up to expectations!
Ten years? Just kill me. GRRM is bad enough already. That tease! I went to a book signing, he said, "A Dance with Dragons is practically finished. Hopefully I'll be back next year." It's been four years.
Michael wrote: "...when I was arguing with Elxa Dal. When I shouted it his brazers exploded in a cloud of burning ash and cinder."Elxa Dal is Master Ash is Cinder!!!
Just trolling. ;)
Mod
None of that, please.
There is tons of good stuff to read while you wait patiently. :-P
Back on topic-
I think Bredon is too good to be true.
Mary wrote: "Book 3 will be finished when it's finished. None of that, please.
There is tons of good stuff to read while you wait patiently. :-P
Back on topic-
I think Bredon is too good to be true."
I hope Bredon is not Master Ash, I would be upset. I wish we could know how common/rare Tak players are. That Felurian knows the game makes me think that it is a pre-Creation war activity. I'm gonna call Bredon out as an Amyr, unless he turns out to be evil.
Allen wrote: "Mary wrote: "Book 3 will be finished when it's finished. None of that, please.
There is tons of good stuff to read while you wait patiently. :-P
Back on topic-
I think Bredon is too good to be ..."
I agree. I believe he is either an Amyr or Master Ash. I'm not sure which but I can see how you could speculate him being an Amyr. He is guiding Kvothe to learn the subtle beauty of Tak. How to think outside the norm.
I do not guess as to the future of the third book... as a writer myself, i refuse to guess and spoil it for myself, instead... when the third book comes out i will buy it hot off the shelf, sit at home with a cup of cocoa, coffee, or tea, and chill as i read it... then when the right moments arise... i will open my eyes and mouth and gasp with astonished horror or enjoyment as to what the surprises are... its not fun for the writer or the reader if the book is predictable...though i will add that... Bredon is Master Ash... obviously... the talking tree... the name has escaped me... Cealth? said that Denna was beaten with a cane... Bredon carries a cane... as for the moon... i think Pat was saying that when we see half of the moon... the other half is in the Fae... just saying... though i hate connecting one and two together... but that he explained and foreshadowed...
I was discussing in another forum about the lighting rod Kvothe used against Cinder and a theory came to mind.Kvothe was almost sure he wouldn’t survive ("It might do nothing. It might kill me. The slippage alone ... But it didn’t matter").
My theory has two parts.
First he says he broke his mind in six parts before doing the bindings. So I can imagine he did six bindings (not sure about that). He explained two of them later, the other four he probably made to protected his body. I have some ideas about them.
1) Arrow and arrow (Galvanic) - He confirmed that.
2) Earth near the arrow and more earth (Galvanic) - He sort of said that.
3) Wood near the arrow and the rest of the Tree (Galvanic) - Here the theory begins. The idea here is to make the whole Tree at the same electric potential, specially the roots that are grounded. The idea is here to make some of the energy of the lighting dissipate on the tree upon impact instead of flowing through the first binding. So there is less energy to slip to him, but the tree gets damaged anyway.
4) His body and dead bodies (Galvanic) - So the slippage of the first binding is splited between them.
5) His body and dead bodies (Thermal) - Same idea, but to protect against Joule effect (heat).
6) Water on his body and water of the rain (Thermal) - Same logic.
But even if he did all these things... he was pretty sure he wouldn’t survive.
So here is the second part.
At the same time, Martin was praying, asking help for Tehlu. I think it’s possible that Tehlu helped. Here is the whole pray.
"Tehlu, whose eyes are true,
Watch over me.
Tehlu, son of yourself,
Watch over me.
Tehlu who was Menda who you were.
Watch over me in Menda’s name,
In Perial’s name
In Ordal’s name
In Andan’s name
Watch over me."
If we go back to Skarpi story we get that Tehlu (and also Ordal and Andan) followed Selitos and became Amyr. That makes Tehlu a natural enemy of Cinder and probably willing to help. Also when Aleph transformed them into Amyr, they were consumed by a white fire and were gone forever from mortal sight. Skapi also said none but the most powerful can see them, and only then with great difficulty and at great peril.
We can say Kvothe is one of the most powerful mortals and was at great difficulty and peril... but he fainted so he could not see them.
Martin (who asked for help) and the others are normal men so they could not see the Amyr even if they were before them. Would they see anything? Maybe just white fire and that is exactly what Dedan said (“Dedan described it as “a pillar of white fire,” and said it shook the ground hard enough to knock him off his feet”).
There is another point that helps this theory. It’s the whereabouts of Cinder. He was able to leave quick enough for the group not to see him, so we can imagine he wasn’t hurt too much. So why would he left at all? Why not stay and kill them by himself? It’s possible he only left because of the Amyr.
Short version: The Amyr protected Kvothe from the slippage and also attacked Cinder.
I like the thought put into it and I have some feelings about Tehlu and Skarpi myself. I can't back any of it up so I am keeping it to myself, but I like the direction you went.
What's in Kvothe's Thrice Locked Chest? It's got to contain Kvothe's name, for the purpose of keeping him safe. When he was making up the story of "The Chronicler" he gave it away by using reality to makeup the story. He said:“Because he doesn’t know any of the king’s secrets,” the innkeeper explained. “And the high king of Modeg knows some magic and can protect himself. ... And more important, he knows Chronicler can’t control you if you have your name hidden away somewhere safe. The high king’s name is written in a book of glass, hidden in a box of copper. And that box is locked away in a great iron chest where nobody can touch it.”
Notice in Kote's story the high king of Modeg has his name hidden and locked away 3 times in a chest to keep him safe, so does Kote/Kvothe.
Bruno wrote: "At the same time, Martin was praying, asking help for Tehlu. I think it’s possible that Tehlu helped. "Excellent observation. I would never have thought of that, but that's an excellent thing for an author to sneak under our noses. On a side note, here's another way to consider the 6-part mind: Not 6 equal boxes, but boxes within boxes, to increase the separation between the top box and inner box, reducing slippage, or whatever.
@ thrice locked chest: I tried to think of how a 'name' could be locked away, and I considered bindings. Would the only way to detain a name be to bind it? Isn't that the only locking mechanic we've seen, aside from physical locks? So perhaps it's locked by a mind that's broken up into three parts.
@ BrunoI totally agree that the Amyr were coming and were probably the main reason why Cinder ran off. Perhaps the "lightning" wasn't lighting at all and not called down by Kvothe, just an attack from the Amyr. Right before the lightning strike we read:
Their leader turned his head as if to search the sky for something. Something about the motion seemed terribly familiar, but my thoughts were growing muddy as binder’s chills tightened their grip.
That mimics the description where the Chandrain had killed Kvothe's parents and were then run off by (theoretically) the Amyr.
Those sitting around the fire grew perfectly still, their expressions intent. In unison they tilted their heads as if looking at the same point in the twilit sky. As if trying to catch the scent of something on the wind.
Althor,Nice catch. I didn't pay attention to this paragraph. And it comes just after Martin finish his pray. Thanks.
I guess this theory has good chances to be right. And I love the way Patrick leaves these pieces of info in his stories.
I had thought about the idea of no lightning too. It is very possible but I am not so sure about this as I am about the Amyr.
Yeah, the Amyr were definitely involved...but i just want to point out that Tehlu has nothing to do with the Amyr so those prayers wouldn't have really mattered. Tehlu was made an angel by Aleph, while Selitos turned Aleph down and founded the Amyr.
The fact that Dedan called the lightening a "pillar of white fire" is interesting though...isn't that how Tehlu appeared when he entered that girl's dream and became menda?
On the topic of master Ash being Bredon: Bredon mentions that he enjoys dancing to pass his time (instead of the machinations of court), and Denna comments on her patron being quite a skilled dancer. I can't be arsed to find the exact quotes, but someone else maybe can prove it.
I'll admit I'm lazy and I can't read through all the pages of theories, so I'm not sure if this has been brought up yet. But about the chest with the locks. Page 338, Kvothe is fabricating the story about the chronicler (loved the paper sword btdubs) anywho. Adds a bit about a chest with various other layers of protection used to protect a name.
Wondering if that's a pull from his own life? Whatcha think?
I´ve got a theory that´s a bit farfetched, but here goes: we know all about Kvothe´s time in the Fae in Felurian´s embrace. A comment Bast made during one of the interludes got me half thinking. I´m talking about when the mother leaves her baby boy while she takes another of the kids to the bathroom and Kvothe starts singing to him while Bast just looks uncomfortable at the babe. Kvothe finishes with "Baby give your daddy a hug!"(Kvothe made no gesture for the last line, instead he tilted his head, eyeing Bast expectantly.
Bast merely stood there, confused. Then realization dawned on his face. “Reshi, how could you think that?” he asked, his voice slightly offended. He pointed at the little boy. “He’s blonde!”)
woop! I was able to find it in the book, took me a while. Ok, so here we have Bast denying that the kid is his (and being increadibly cute while he´s at it) because it´s blond, not because he´s part fae. So if Bast might be able to have kids with a human, could Kvothe have sired a kid with Felurian? I know it´s a weird idea, but whenever I read Bast and Kvothe together, I get a feeling it´s a father son relationship. Kinda reminds me of my brother and my dad at times, how Bast is willing to do anything to make Kvothe happier. If it weren´t for him, Chronicler wouldn´t be there, the thugs wouldn´t have come (or have been killed) and let´s not forget the whole milk thing. And shouting out "Entertain me!" like a spoiled little boy that knows that he´ll get his way if he´s with his dad.
Any thoughts? I know it´s a crazy theory, just wanna know what you guys think
I like your idea and think it would be an interesting plot twist. Guess we'll all have to wait and see! :)
Kailly wrote: "I´ve got a theory that´s a bit farfetched, but here goes: we know all about Kvothe´s time in the Fae in Felurian´s embrace. A comment Bast made during one of the interludes got me half thinking. I´..."Nice theory, but he's Bastas, son of Remmen.
Yeah, found that a while ago, but still, couldn´t it be one of Kvothe´s many names? Maedre, Kote, wouldn´t the fae have given him a new name as well? As for the age difference, I remembered that Bast was quite old in the first book (150?) but again, it´s been said that the fae realm takes time, rolls it up into a nice lil ball and then tries to score it in the waist bin, right?Again, I know how far-fetched it is, but it´s got a nice ring to it, doesn´t it?
Kailly wrote: "Yeah, found that a while ago, but still, couldn´t it be one of Kvothe´s many names? Maedre, Kote, wouldn´t the fae have given him a new name as well? As for the age difference, I remembered that Ba..."Reshi being short for Remmen? :D Well, maybe!
man i just finished yesterday, and im thinking i need to reread. i wasnt able to pick the majority of that up. i was doing the hurry up and read to see what happens so its gonna need a second run.that being said, i was thinking the university was the new home of the amyr. that is what is behing the golden door in the archives. i feel like lorren was probably maybe one of the ones that directly or indirectly provided is parents information on the chandrian. that is how he knew who he was at admissions, especially with the Ruh giller that he met the one time. the lacklass/lockless obviously have something to do with being keepers of something of the chandrians, perhaps there real names...but dont the adem have them to?
and denna...i hate to say it but, she must be an instrument of the chandrians either unbeknownst to her, against her will, or she is one of the chandrian, perhaps the female chandrian. also what was the deal with the yllish knots, how would someone of her ilk be able to learn that consdering it is nearly a lost art, and kvothe can barely even learn it. that also indicates she is older than she seems. that is all my speculation up to here...
oh and one thing left me wondering there was a vague conversation between hemme and his colleague (cant remember the name or when) either right before or after elodin caught his stuff on fire warning caution or something i think.
if i repeated anything others have said sorry just had to get it out after reading the two books for 3 weeks. also i must rave at how wonderful it was to stumble upon these after finding most fantasy lacking after the BIG 4.
It makes sense that Lorren provided Kvothe's parents with information about the Chandrian. That's the simplest and easiest explanation for why Lorren may have known of the Aldrien...OR he may simply have heard a lot of gossip about how the eldest Lockless eloped.
But Kvothe had never been to the University before so how would that happen?
You mean Kvothe's father wouldn't have been to the University without his son? Good point, since I assume Arliden didn't begin his search until after Kvothe was born(though who knows?). The alternative is that Arliden's quest was relayed to Lorren through Abenthy, one of the roaming Celdish librarians we met briefly, or through a remaining Amir gossip channel. Or something. Hey, it's a more interesting explanation than simply having Lorren and Arliden be childhood friends.
I'm not saying it's bad. It provides an answer for something that I was wondering about myself.
On a completely different subject. I was listening to the audiobook reading of Jax's story last night and I had a thought. The folding house that Hespe talks about. It talks about it having all kinds of doors/windows looking out, and that they all pretty much looked out at a different scene (night/day/snowing/summer). My thought was this, what if the house were actually referring to the fae realm? We know that the graystones are doorways into the fae realm, and with the graystones scattered throughout the land, depending on which door you went to it could conceivably be night at one door, day at another (or summer/winter/etc). Also, she mentions that the doors, while they could be shut, could never be made fast. In other words, the doors into the fae can be shut, but not completely locked tight. Any thoughts?
