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The Wise Man's Fear - Theories
message 51:
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TheThirdLie
(new)
Mar 16, 2011 03:34PM
I don't think Cinder could make his eyes look normal though... he's the one with pitch black eyes, right? I don't think he'd be able to change that... so I don't think Bredon or Denna's patron is Cinder.
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That is exactly what I was thinking. It made the most sense to me for it to be Stercus. I am almost completely convinced that Bredon is Master Ash, but I'm not completely sure if he is one of The Seven or not. It is really interesting to think that he might and that everything ties in together. I've heard quite a few theories of the Chandrian and the Amyr being behind everything that has happened in Kvothe's life. All this speculation just makes me more curious and eager to read the third day
I could see Bredon being Master Ash, that's not too much of a stretch. It's even based on some solid facts, but... Cinder being Ash, there's just no way.On a side note, has Kvothe ever encountered a one eyed man in this series?
I don't remember a one-eyed man atleast in TWMF it has been a while for NOTW why? Yeah I don't think it is Cinder. Cinder is the dark eyed Chandrian known as Ferule. He is described as chill and dark eyed by Shehyn. One lives in decay. Another one bears a blue flame. Alenta brings the blight. The other one never speaks. That would leave Stercus, the thrall of iron as the only candidate to be Bredon and a Chandrian.
I was thinking about a one eyed guy and seeing if there have been any appearances by Selios. Although he's probably not a long living guy like Lanre.
Oh I see...idk I mean he might be able to. I remember reading the first book and when the Chandrian disappeared after killing the Edema Ruh weren't they running away from someone or something? I think it mentioned the Amyr. I don't own the book yet I checked it out from the library a couple years back so I can't look for it. I thought Haliax said something about someone coming that could harm them.
Selios and others that survived the destruction of Myr Tainel {i can't remember the spelling on that city} became the Amyr. I just wonder if Selios would become something more than just a man.
wait no. I thought the Amyr were good (to an extent) I thought they were the rival force of the Chandrian? Lanre became Haliax which is the leader of the Chandrian not the Amyr.
Yeah, that's how it is. That was a case of my fingers typing something other than what my brain wanted. >.<
ok lol I almost had to reread everything....I def think Selitos is still alive...I'm holding the book I'll quote what it says when the Edema Ruh are killed... "who keeps you safe from the Amyr? The singers? The Sithe?" "Now finish what--"His cool voice trailed away as his shadowed hood slowly tilted to look toward the sky. There was an expectant silence. "They come," Haliax said quietly. He stood, and shadow seemed to boil outward from him like a dark fog. "Quickly. To me." I'm not sure who they were running from but it would seem to be one of the three enemies he spoke of. I can almost guarantee that Selitos is in one of those groups. I think the names in Shehyn's story are possibly the true names of the Chandrian
"The soft voice went as hard as a rod of Ramston steel "Ferula."
Cinder's quicksilver grace disappeared. He staggered, his body suddenly with pain.
"You are a tool in my hand,"
That is Haliax speaking to Cinder. It would appear as if Cinder's name caused him pain. Haliax also asks him who knows the inner turnings of his name so that seems to confirm that.
Do you know if Bredon is bald and has a grey beard? The only only physical description of another Chandrian is the bald headed, grey bearded man sitting at the fire after killing Kvothe's family. Pat might have cleverly placed that physical description there on purpose to maybe clue us in ;-)
Selios is the one that started the Amyr. So he's definitely one of the three groups. ;) Not sure about Bredon's appearance. I'm pretty terrible with those. All I know it Kvothe has red hair. Heh.
lol yeah I searched the book earlier. I didn't find all of the scenes with bredon but I couldn't find a description of his physical appearance.
Yeah I thought the book said something about him starting the Amyr or something. Something is troubling me. In the book it says Iax spoke to the Cthaeh but the Cthaeh was in the Fae realm and Iax created the Fae realm how does that work?
He created the realm (and Cthaeh) and then talked to it. Next, he stole the moon and sparked the Creation War. Where's the confusion?P.S. this topic wasn't exactly intended for WMF discussion. As you can tell by the early posts it was a post-NotW pre-WMF theory topic...
Anthony Truong wrote: "He created the realm (and Cthaeh) and then talked to it. Next, he stole the moon and sparked the Creation War. Where's the confusion?P.S. this topic wasn't exactly intended for WMF discussion. As..."
Except Bast says Iax spoke to Ctaeth BEFORE doing everything he did.
JK wrote: "Anthony Truong wrote: "He created the realm (and Cthaeh) and then talked to it. Next, he stole the moon and sparked the Creation War. Where's the confusion?P.S. this topic wasn't exactly intended..."
That's exactly why I was confused. Bast says he talks to it before doing everything he did, but it didn't exist until he did what he did. That seems to be a logical fallacy. It is in the WMF though so it is relevant
I don't believe the book says that he created the Cthaeh. I think the Cthaeh was there before and when he built fae, the Cthaeh was incorporated into it.
oh ok... I was just confused by it... I guess it was just the way I was interpreting it that contradicted the idea.
This is the part that I remember from the book, point out where Bast says Iax spoke to Cthaeh before creating the Fae.[Kvothe gave a wry smile. “So after a person meets the Cthaeh, all their choices will be the wrong ones.”
Bast shook his head, his face pale and drawn. “Not wrong, Reshi, catastrophic. Iax spoke to the Cthaeh before he stole the moon, and that sparked the entire creation war. Lanre spoke to the Cthaeh before he orchestrated the betrayal of Myr Tariniel. The creation of the Nameless. The Scaendyne. They can all be traced back to the Cthaeh.”]
Alright, I stand corrected. I guess I was thinking Bast had said it was before he did anything.
Agreeing with Anthony,Order: Create Fae -> Talk to Cthaeh -> Steal moon -> creation war.
That doesn't make sense. Look at the line Anthony quoted. Iax talked to Cthaeh before he stole the moon's name. That's what led to the Fae being created. I'm sticking to the Cthaeh predating the Fae. It's some sort of other creature.
JK wrote: "That doesn't make sense. Look at the line Anthony quoted. Iax talked to Cthaeh before he stole the moon's name. That's what led to the Fae being created. I'm sticking to the Cthaeh predating the Fa..."Wrong. Stealing the moon did not lead to the Fae being created. Reread that section.
Uhh... the Fae didn't have a moon for a while. How could stealing the moon lead to the creation of the Fae? Furthermore, what would be the point of stealing the moon without somewhere to put it?[This from a woman weaving me a cloak out of shadow. I couldn’t guess what she might marvel at. “What did they make?”
She gestured widely around us.
“Trees?” I asked, awestruck.
She laughed at my tone. “no. the faen realm.” she waved widely. “wrought according to their will. the greatest of them sewed it from whole cloth. a place where they could do as they desired. and at the end of all their work, each shaper wrought a star to fill their new and empty sky.”
Felurian smiled at me. “then there were two worlds. two skies. two sets of stars.” She held up the smooth stone. “but still one moon. and it all round and cozy in the mortal sky.”
Her smile faded. “but one shaper was greater than the rest. for him the making of a star was not enough. he stretched his will across the world and pulled her from her home.”]
Alright. Anthony I completely agree with you now you quoted it and I just reread it lol so yeah I was wrong.
Oh. Wow. I was remembering that completely wrong. I think I the Jax and Iax stories were getting jumbled in my brain.
Yeah that's what I was doing too. The little details get mixed up
I see why Brendon could be Mr Ash, but the ramifications of that would mean that Brendon is so much more than just an abusive patron. I like the ideas surrounding Denna's curiosity for written magic, but combine it with the song she is writing. Her patron must be Chandrian, Amyr, or someone of the like because she is getting the story all wrong. Could Cinder be her patron, forcing her to write a song about the Lanre that is incorrect? Is this another protection against "the singers" as described when Kvothe's troupe is murdered in NOTW??? The song Denna is composing is important! It is also the thorn in her and Kvothe's relationship. Is it going to be the reason for the relationship's demise? Kvothe shoots Cinder with an arrow (indirectly of course, as it was not actually his arrow), he is searching a forbidden topic, his parents were composing a song worth killing for, and now he is going to try to explain to Denna why her song is incorrect?
I can't decide if the cane is too obvious, or just perfect, but it is certainly interesting.
Patrick wrote: "I don't know if anyone else has noticed this, but on re reading WMF i noticed Denna seemed especially interested in magic that was written down..." Would this be because of her interest in the lost 'knot-based' language? And she seemed adamant that it was meant to be read with the hands, and not with the eyes--would this be because 'feeling' the words contained contained hidden, 'sleeping mind' style info that had magical consequences? I would imagine she cares more about the writing, and less about the magic.
On Kvothe's loss of power, he seems to have lost it often enough: He's had to re-adjust to the lute a number of times; he lost to classmates in his sympathy class after not practicing for a month...I think the novel suggests that he's just really, really rusty. At the end, when he takes 'the perfect step,' I think that's him practicing the katan for the first time in a long while. Practice will bring everything back.
Do you suppose he sent back his 'poet killer' sword, as part of him faking his death?
On Bredon's appearance, wasn't he described to look something like an owl? Wish I had the book with me right now. Brendon seems like the only obvious identity to Master Ashe. His strange pagan rituals in the woods, the link between the woods and the fae realm, the fact that he and Felurian seemed to play the same game which was likely as old as Fae itself...I don't think Bredon's an evil guy, but perhaps he's pulling the same trick on the Chandrian that Kvothe pulled on Felurian, and that Chronicler pulled on Kvothe--Perhaps he's holding Haliax's story hostage, and is willing to spread an alternate story in exchange for some favors? That would put Denna on the Chandrian side, and would explain why Kvothe would have had to kill an angel to protect her.
If Kvothe killed Denna I will rage for months. These are all good theories though i like them
Kyle wrote: "...I think that Bredon is Master Ash and also Stercus the thrall of iron. Bredon is constantly carrying a cane and Denna's patron beats her with a cane..."I might be wrong here but I don't think that Bredon is Master Ash...who is Cinder...who is Ferule. He seems too nice to Kvothe to be sooo ruthless elswhere.
Yes, his description fits Cinder's,
"Bredon was older. Not elderly by any means, but what I consider grandfather old. His colors weren’t colors at all, merely ash grey and a dark charcoal. His hair and beard were pure white, and all cut to the same length, making a frame for his face. As he sat there, peering at me with his lively brown eyes, he reminded me of an owl."
However, Cinder doesn't have a beard nor does he have brown eyes.
This could just be a red herring tossed in to the mix by Pat.
Also, I posted in the Chandrian Theories that Ferule means "An instrument, such as a cane, stick, or flat piece of wood, used in punishing children."
Plus, Bredon is the name of a beer in the book. Who would think that beer could be so evil? My beer is usually very kind to me, settling around my midsection to keep me company for long periods of time.
I agree with you PhilPlus, the Cthaeh never mentioned Bredon, he said Kvothe met Cinder only twice. And in the Eld he noticed immediatly that Cinder moved strangely, when he was at some distance. If Bredon were truly Cinder Kvothe would at least have noticed something odd. I don't think Cinder would be make to masquerade so perfectly, he didn't seem to be able to control his cruelty.
However, I do think Bredon=Master Ash, for all the reasons on this page. And it is very likely he is in collusion with the Chandrian, some kind of underling, which would explain the pagan ritual, him helping Denna to compose the tragic tale of Lanre ande telling her "secrets".
I must be in the minority, but I've been leaning towards Bredon as part of the Amyr. I think he is going to be an ally for Kvothe against the Chandrian. Kvothe was told the Amyr would be near the Maer, as Bredon is. Plus, he wants Kvothe to learn to play a more elegant game of tak. An Amyr would need to be more subtle than Kvothe often is, more in control of his emotions. He also states that Kvothe can call him Bredon, not that his name is Bredon. Wouldn't a member of a secret society have multiple aliases at hand?
Laurel wrote: "I must be in the minority, but I've been leaning towards Bredon as part of the Amyr. I think he is going to be an ally for Kvothe against the Chandrian. Kvothe was told the Amyr would be near th..."I like that.
Why did Bast let those guys rob Kvothe and if he is a faerie what is he doing in the "real world" ??that's what i am wondering.
Pretty sure Bast had those guys rob Kvothe to try and get Kvothe to remember a bit about who he is. Like how he got Chronicler out to Kvothe. It's all being done in an effort to get Kvothe back to who he was.And Fae can be in the human world. There are doorways between the two worlds. So the Fae aren't really locked away.
Don't you think it's a bit much getting a couple of thugs to beat and rob him, just to make him remember? it seems a bit much for me, i have a hard time believing that.
A bit much? Not at all. What would you think he was doing? He obviously cares a great deal for Kvothe and he desperately wants him to be back to his old self. This was just another shot at doing that. I'm fairly certain Bast only wanted them to rob Kvothe... or at least try to rob him. Bast didn't actually want him to get hurt - which is why Bast went out at the end of the book and killed the two guys.
This is a fairly minor point but when Kvothe is exploring the archives he describes it as being like a city with some parts busier than other and he mentions a palimpsest room.A palimpsest is a manuscript with the ink scraped off and the paper used again.
Nina brings Kvothe some paper with almost all the words scraped off and used to draw her pictures of the Chandrian.
So could we perhaps see somewhere buried in the archives a book written on paper that had previously been a book about the Chandrian? With the previous inking imperfectly removed so you can still read something of the previous work?
It seems fairly likely to me.
Bast first asked Kvothe why he "let" the soldiers beat him up, suggesting that he fully expected Kvothe to trash them. When it didn't work out that way, did the final pages that suggest that Bast went back and killed them?@ Rasputin: Excellent point! But even if Rothfuss toyed with the idea, I doubt he ended up implementing that into the story. How could he?...Was Nina correct, in that the paper itself held the information? Could Kvothe speak to the paper, and ask it remember the ink on it? I guess only the 3rd book will tell.
I didn't get any inclination that Bast killed them... i will have to re read that part.
Sanjiv: I read it as Bast killing them. Bast starts a rhyme that is basically "eenie meenie minie moe" for the two guys while carrying a large stick that's on fire. This takes place right after a heated argument with Chronicler. It isn't said flat out that Bast kills them, but that's how I interpret it given the events and Bast's demeanor.
@Sanjiv--it need not be anything fantastic at all. If you look at the wikipedia article on the word palimpsest you can see a few pictures of examples where the old text is showing through the new. All it would take is for Kvothe to go to one of the lost parts of the archives and find it.
I seem to remember Bast's teeth shining read in the fire light, as he finished reciting his rhyme for the soldiers. If I remember that correctly, then that's probably why I figure Bast intended on harming them...But now that I think about it, his teeth would have been red from when he absorbed Kvothe's injuries. Perhaps all he intended to do was return those injuries to where they came from, i.e. return his individual injury to another individual. That might explain why he had to pick only one of the soldiers with his rhyme. That makes more sense to me, since even though Bast is fae, he doesn't seem that crazy (I mean crazy enough to kill).Rasputin wrote: "All it would take is for Kvothe to go to one of the lost parts of the archives and find it. "
Now that might by the hard part. In fact, the task of finding specific information seems downright impossible given what we've been told about the archives...Unless the writing was in blood. We know that can be traced. That could be really cool, couldn't it? Find a dying an Amyr who can no longer give you information, though you can still take his blood. Then use that blood to find other places where it could be. Would that work?
He's hiding the fact that he's Fae from everyone else, though, I can't imagine he'd use Fae magic on some random guys and then let them run about with that knowledge. Bast may not seem like it at times, but he is incredibly ruthless. He's also VERY protective of Kvothe. Killing a couple guys because they beat up Kvothe wouldn't be a problem for him.
I hate to think that, but I agree. However Bast's also been known to conscript personal agents to do his bidding (i.e. Chronicler). That's just another way in which he shows his utter disregard for human life. If Bast has additional secret agendas, then two capable soldiers may come in handy, especially if he wants Kvothe to return to adventuring again. And the one who took down Kvothe, well, took down Kvothe. It's possible he's not an ordinary thug.
Would the Smithy's apprentice be returning the next day (hence the next book), or was he going to be gone for a couple of days?
@Sanjiv at #95: Sure, it would be hard to search out something specific if you knew it were there somewhere but we are dealing with a work of fiction here and Rothfuss could, if he wanted, just have Kvothe run across it by accident much the way he heard of the rumor of the attack at the wedding more or less by accident.I'd suggest that it's entirely plausible that Kvothe just explores the lost areas of the archives because he loves the idea of the archives and he hasn't found what he wants in the organized parts.
I mean, really, if you think that someone has systematically gone through and removed what you're looking for why not look in the parts where nobody can find dick anyway?
Kvothe has clearly just been lucky plenty of times, and that does follow a pattern. However, he seems to have all but given up searching the archives, and thinks information about the Chandrian is more likely to be in private libraries. Then again, the one thing the private libraries don't have is that secret door with no lock. That would definitely bring him back to the archives, but I still can't see him going back to actively search for documents. Or rather, I don't think the book pointed readers in that direction.Rasputin wrote: "I mean, really, if you think that someone has systematically gone through and removed what you're looking for why not look in the parts where nobody can find dick anyway? "
But yeah, this I agree with.
Anthony (74) wrote: "Her smile faded. “but one shaper was greater than the rest. for him the making of a star was not enough. he stretched his will across the world and pulled her from her home.”] "can anyone remind me how Haliax's wife died?
