THE JAMES MASON COMMUNITY BOOK CLUB discussion
note: This topic has been closed to new comments.
Archives - Book Discussions
>
THE NAME OF THE ROSE
message 301:
by
Curt
(new)
Mar 24, 2011 04:22PM
Middle aged Hairdressers and a converted rabbi. That sounds like the opening lines of a dirty joke. But Barry Manilow???
reply
|
flag
I'm a pretty devout Catholic & I haven't been remotely offended by any of the conversations so far. It's pretty hard not to discuss religion with this book!:-)The monasteries in the middle ages (like the convents) attracted both deeply spiritual people & people looking to escape their lives-career paths were pretty few. Lots of younger sons & daughters were sent off to religious life as well as wealthier women wanting a life other than marriage. And of course there were those with vocations as well.
Mod
I find scriptoriums facinating- today we take books so much for granted- yet back then - each had to be hand copied- and was quite expensive-
Rick wrote: "Michele wrote: "many of the richer monasteries were scriptoriums. They existed only to make handwritten copies of books. That was their purpose. The Franciscans were not rich. They disdained earthl..."Amazing how much we take for granted...and I get mad when the computer doesn't run as quickly as I'd like :)
I see that Marialyce marked The Illuminator as a To Read. Wondering if you were inspired by TNOTR or was it a recommendation from someone? It is a fascinating subject that I hadn't heard of before reading this book.
I was looking for something that might be connected to the monks who made the gorgeous pages of the testament and other things. Unfortunately, this book does not have great ratings here on GR, so I might try it and see what I think, Bernadette.
I went to the Metropolitan Museum of Art & looked at some of the illuminated manuscripts they have there. So amazing! Interestingly, The Gargoyle by Andrew Davidson has a lot of fascinating information about book illustration since one of the story threads is about a character who worked on illuminating manuscripts. I found out some fascinating information there about the binding process and the inking in.
Mod
Bernadette wrote: "I see that Marialyce marked The Illuminator as a To Read. Wondering if you were inspired by TNOTR or was it a recommendation from someone? It is a fascinating subject that I hadn't he..."
wow- I was thinking about The Illuminator as the next book read! have it in my main bookcase!
Rick wrote: "Marialyce wrote: "I was looking for something that might be connected to the monks who made the gorgeous pages of the testament and other things. Unfortunately, this book does not have great rating..."Great minds think alike Marialyce and Rick. I have finished the book but look forward to more discussion. I started watching the video with Sean Connery, only saw a little but the scenery is gorgeous and the characters seem really well cast.
Here are some of the people we meet in Nones:The dulcians
Opposition to the ecclesiastical hierarchy and return of the Church to its original ideals of humility and poverty.
Opposition to the feudal system.
Human liberation from any restraint and from entrenched power.
Organization of one equal society, of mutual aid and respect, holding property in common.
Fra Dolcino (c. 1250 – 1307) was an Italian radical Christian preacher burnt at the stake in 1307, and often described as being a heretic inspired by the Franciscan theories. He became the leader for a group of radical reformers who after him was called Dulcinians.
Fraticelli
The Fraticelli, sometimes confusingly called Fratricelli, were medieval Roman Catholic groups that could trace their origins to the Franciscans, but which came into being as a separate entity. The Fraticelli were declared heretical by the Church in 1296 by Boniface VIII. Other figures included Michael of Cesena and Peter Olivi.
The Fraticelli ("Little Brethren") were extreme proponents of the rule of Saint Francis of Assisi, especially with regard to poverty, and regarded the wealth of the Church as scandalous, and that of individual churchmen as invalidating their status. They were thus forced into open revolt against the whole authority of the Church.
Minorites
The official Latin name of the Orders of Friars Minor is the Ordo Fratrum Minorum.[2] St. Francis thus referred to his followers as "Fraticelli", meaning "Little Brothers". Franciscan brothers are informally called friars or the Minorites. The modern organization of the Friars Minor now comprises three separate branches: the 'Friars Minor' (OFM); the 'Friars Minor Conventual' (OFM Conv), and the 'Friars Minor Capuchin' (OFM Cap).[3]
Arnold of Brescia (c. 1090 – 1155), also known as Arnaldus (Italian: Arnaldo da Brescia), was a monk from Italy who called on the Church to renounce ownership of property and participated in the failed Commune of Rome. Eventually arrested, he was hanged by the Church, burned posthumously, and then had his ashes thrown into the Tiber River. Though as a religious reformer no less than a political leader Arnold failed,[his teachings on apostolic poverty continued potent after his death, among "Arnoldists" and more widely among Waldensians and the Spiritual Franciscans, though no written word of his has survived the official condemnation. Protestants rank him among the precursors of the Reformation.
Mod
really super posts Marialyce!! greatly appreciated!
Mod
DAY TWO
3/20-3/22 - MATINS- READ DISCUSS
3/23-3/25 - PRIME- READ DISCUSS
3/26-3/29 - TERCE- READ DISCUSS
3/30-4/1 - SEXT- READ DISCUSS
4/1-4/3- NONES- READ DISCUSS
4/3- 4/4 - AFTER VESPERS - READ DISCUSS
4/4-4/6 COMPLINE-READ DISCUSS
4/6-4/9- NIGHT- READ-DISCUSS
4/10-4/11 WRAP-UP DISCUSSIONS PERTAINING TO DAY TWO
I must plead guily to forgetting schedule!! So this is mostly a reminder for yours truly!
Bernadette wrote: "Great synopsis Marialyce"They were found at wiki, Bernadette. I didn't write them.
Thank you Marialyce! I kept reading about Fra Dolcino and could not figure out who he was. I thought at one point he was in the monestary. Now it makes sense why the narrator did not know much about him, and everyone was nervous talking about Fra. Thank you!
I've been away on vacation. I had hope to do some reading, but it didn't work out that way. I have to catch up!
I watched the film of TNOTR last night. What a great job they did in casting this. Initially i couldn't see Sean Connery in the role of William, but I really liked him. A teenage Christian Slater is surprisingly good (he was 15 at the time and in a fairly graphic sex scene which was a little shocking). The other roles were perfect, whoever did the creepy makeup was really tuned in to the book. The characters were even creepier on screen than they had been in my head while reading the book.
Mod
Rick wrote: "I enjoyed the interrogations William conducted after the service- it is clear that the asst librarian committed a "carnel sin" with the first death, interesting that William makes no judgment- nor ..."The blind monk would be creepy anywhere, but especially at parties. And he is especially creepy in the movie ...
Rick wrote: "I enjoyed the interrogations William conducted after the service- it is clear that the asst librarian committed a "carnel sin" with the first death, interesting that William makes no judgment- nor ..."That's what's wrong with my parties! I keep inviting the creepy blind monk.
Susan wrote: "Rick wrote: "I enjoyed the interrogations William conducted after the service- it is clear that the asst librarian committed a "carnel sin" with the first death, interesting that William makes no j..."lol
Mod
hahah- I guess not enough Sacramental wine!
Ellie wrote: "Of course, there is also the school of thought that the mentally ill are called by God to witness.And, on the other hand of course, that they are possessed by the devil.
I suppose it has to do w..."
Modern day medicine questions whether many of the saints who had visions and heard voices were having epileptic seizures or episodes of schizophrenia, such as Joan of Arc. For instance, Native Americans' vision quests are sparked by the fasting and solitude, and the same thing could be caused by excessive praying and other privations.
Susan wrote: "Ellie wrote: "Of course, there is also the school of thought that the mentally ill are called by God to witness.And, on the other hand of course, that they are possessed by the devil.
I suppose ..."
Yes... but also, American Natives used a lot of medicinal plants that had as a side effect halutinations.... and of course that many of the visions were mental or physical illnessed, but in a time dominated by the fear of God and hell, it translated this way....
That's also why William is so special in that scenery, he's so open-minded for the time given.... way more than you'd expect from a former inquisitor... but then he was also suspected of heresy, so there goes the oposition....
extreme or long lasting pain can induce hallucinations. Also high fevers. I speak from experience.
There are a few saints who no longer are because of suspected mental illness. St Philomenia is one that comes to mind, plus there are questions about Joan of Arc as well.Schizophrenics, brain tumors, and mental illness cause hallucinations as well as sometimes a sense of euphoria. (being with god)
I just finished a book, Lying Awake which covers one Carmelite's nun with this question. (not mental illness but a tumor on the brain)
I loved that book! Salzman has also written an excellent book about his work teaching writing to young prisoners, True Notebooks.
It was very good. Ellie. I really liked it.
I think there are also some questions about wether certain saints actually really existed. I know that there was some controversy about St. Christopher a few years ago, but I'm not sure wether he has actually been removed.
Well, the party line that I've heard is that because the miracles some saints were supposed to effect have never been substantiated, they have been removed from the official roster, although they may still be saints, it just can't be "proved" (a somewhat hilarious concept in and of itself).And yes, I believe that both St. Christopher and St. Patrick (to the distress of the Irish) became unofficialized.
Mod
shamanic traditions have always included drugs/herbs that could open the mind to visions. priests were just the christian equivalent. many sought god through visions although many used deprivation to achieve them.
Buddhist monks also use herbs and deprivation to achieve nirvana.
Mod
I don't understand why I am not getting updates from Goodreads anymore on this thread or any of the others.
Susan wrote: "I don't understand why I am not getting updates from Goodreads anymore on this thread or any of the others."You need to report this to support@Goodreads.com .
Mod
same here- it seems as if this threadhas stopped cold- is it that we are not posting on it anymore?
Ellie wrote: "Well, the party line that I've heard is that because the miracles some saints were supposed to effect have never been substantiated, they have been removed from the official roster, although they may still be saints, it just can't be "proved" (a somewhat hilarious concept in and of itself).And yes, I believe that both St. Christopher and St. Patrick (to the distress of the Irish) became unofficialized.
I cannot speak for St. Patrick, and I am afraid I don't keep up with these matters at present, but I can explain St. Bridget, second after St. Patrick in the Irish saintly hierarchy. Many years ago, I did a paper for a Mediaeval History course comparing an "historical" saint with a mythical saint. The latter, in my case, was St. Bridget. My research, to my considerable amusement, showed that she was no more or less than an old Celtic fertility goddess. When Ireland became Christian, the Church found, somewhat to its dismay, that Bridget (I forget her Celtic name) remained firmly in the hearts and worship of the locals. Ever practical in these matters, the Church cleaned up, renamed, and entered the old gal into the calendar. A classic case of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em". They may now be removing her again, perhaps because the popularity of the old Celtic gods is on the wane.
the catholic church did a lot of things like that. for instance: easter comes from an old saxon/germanic tradition oestre. Dec.25th was actually also the birthday of the pagan god Mithras not to mention Saturnalia (roman tradition). what it could not fight it coopted. too bad the modern church is not so adaptable to modertn times.
Rick wrote: "Susan wrote: "I don't understand why I am not getting updates from Goodreads anymore on this thread or any of the others."same here- it seems as if this threadhas stopped cold- is it that we ar..."
Oh, good, then I'm not the only one. I thought I had done something wrong.
Just to make sure-we are starting to read Compline of the second day, correct?
Mod
here is the schedule!
DAY TWO
3/20-3/22 - MATINS- READ DISCUSS
3/23-3/25 - PRIME- READ DISCUSS
3/26-3/29 - TERCE- READ DISCUSS
3/30-4/1 - SEXT- READ DISCUSS
4/1-4/3- NONES- READ DISCUSS
4/3- 4/4 - AFTER VESPERS - READ DISCUSS
4/4-4/6 COMPLINE-READ DISCUSS
4/6-4/9- NIGHT- READ-DISCUSS
4/10-4/11 WRAP-UP DISCUSSIONS PERTAINING TO DAY TWO
Susan wrote: "Rick wrote: "Susan wrote: "I don't understand why I am not getting updates from Goodreads anymore on this thread or any of the others."same here- it seems as if this threadhas stopped cold- is it..."
I wonder if a thread has no activity for awhile, that people stop getting updates from it?
Mod
same here- it seems as if this threadhas stopp..."
not sure- odd...
Are we still doing this? Your discussion was wonderful and kept me motivated to read this. Just wondering....
I have been away so have lost track of where we are suppose to be. I would like to continue however.
This is the first post I've gotten-are we still doing this?
Ellie wrote: "This is the first post I've gotten-are we still doing this?"The last schedule went through day 2, right? Can anyone tell me how far that is in the book, percentage wise? I think I could probably catch up if we're going to continue.
This topic has been frozen by the moderator. No new comments can be posted.
THE JAMES MASON COMMUNITY BOOK CLUB
Books mentioned in this topic
Heresy: A History of Defending the Truth (other topics)True Notebooks: A Writer's Year at Juvenile Hall (other topics)
Lying Awake (other topics)
The Illuminator (other topics)
The Gargoyle (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Andrew Davidson (other topics)Jorge Luis Borges (other topics)
Jorge Luis Borges (other topics)
