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The Far Pavilions - next chunky /Reading Sched
message 151:
by
Irene
(new)
Mar 09, 2011 09:35AM
The author appears to have a better impression of Indian values and human interactions than of Brittish values and interactions. Sita is portrayed far more favorably than Belinda's mother who seems very superficial and immature. I could not dislike Belinda after watching her parents who appeared to be Kindergarten drop-outs on the values front. Even Ash's biological mother, whose name I can't recall, seemed flighty.
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Irene wrote: "The author appears to have a better impression of Indian values and human interactions than of Brittish values and interactions. Sita is portrayed far more favorably than Belinda's mother who seem..."I think we have to consider the audience the author was targeting. In the short bio on the dust jacket, it is mentioned that M. M. Kaye grew up in India under the British Raj, and later moved back there with her husband. My thought was that she was a little like Ash, understanding both worlds and hoping to make them develop compassion for one another. Perhaps she had an Indian nanny?? Or close Indian friend as a child?? I would assume that her book was not widely circulated in India, but specifically targeted for a British audience back home in England, to encourage empathy for their Indian subjects. That would explain why the English perspective is left, for the most part, to be assumed.
Later in the book, she seems to feel sorry for the English who cannot (and will not try to) comprehend the mindset of the Indians.
It would also explain why so much emphasis is put on Ash's parentage being purely English, as this would inspire more sympathy from English readers than a "half caste" hero would have done.
I have to agree with you Carrie. I think this book is semi autobiographical. There is so much going on with a lot of insight on the author's part.
Meg: Sometimes things the characters say feel so loaded... (I'm thinking in particular about what Ash's father said about always being just, and later what Zarin's aunt will say about women who "love with the whole heart." There are tons of other examples, but these two stick out for me.) I have to think this book was a little bit like a soapbox for Kaye, a platform for her to make her opinions heard. I love that about it -- that you can feel how much she believed in what she wrote.
Religion can and does make for the classes then and now in India. Women have always been considered in the same vein as one thought of their animals. The class structure and religion contributed to the "male" society. Unfortunately, not a lot has changed since that time of this book. Women today in India are still considered as being owned although now with an emerging middle class that could change.The class system (caste) was encouraged by the English system. All things considered it was not so very different from the Indian system. The wealthy had it all and the poor were their vassals.
It doesn't surprise me that the system hasn't changed that much. When a belief/culture is rooted in religion, it's hard to support a different perspective. All arguements tend to circle back to, "but...it's religion!" Not to knock religion. Faith is a beautiful thing. It's just that faith and logic don't always go hand in hand.
I liked the observation that the story feels a bit like the author's soap box at times. I think that feeling is detracting from the reading experience for me. I tend to want messages to be a bit more hidden when reading fiction. I want to arrive at conclusions slowly. I tend to appreciate explicit articulations of opinions more when they come in the form of essay. I feel manipulated when opinion is served under the glaze of a fictional sauce.
That is an interesting take Irene. Does anyone else feel like that? I kind of like the saga but it is not a "deep" novel on some counts.
Sorry Irene, I don't feel that way at all. I believe that the author is sharing her experiences while being in India. I do not think she had an agenda at all. I feel as you do, Meg. It is a lovely story with some historical background and not very "deep" at all.
I don't feel that the author has an agenda, either. There are both British and Indian despicable characters, I don't see that she favors one side over the other.
Irene I guess we are in the minority here but I think that definitely the authors views are coming through the storyline.Marialyce I feel the same and would describe it the same way. A great Indian soap opera.
Rebecca, I am often in the minority when it comes to opinions on books. But, I think I enjoy discussions so much better when there is diverging opinions. I love it when others see things differently and share that with me. So, Ladies, I hope we will continue to disagree because it helps me to grow. But, Rebecca, I do enjoy having company in my minority corner, so thanks for that. It is not all that often that I can have someone reassure me that I am not crazy.
Gillian: I think you make a good point about there being despicable British and Indian characters. I think that strengthens the story a lot...makes it seem more "fair," and makes the narrator seem more reliable and unbiased.I definitely think there's an agenda. But I agree the comment that it's not a "deep" novel. There's nothing subtle about the way Kaye expresses her opinions.
I am not finding this a "deep" novel either. More of a story where the author's opinions are right out there for us to see. I does annoy me a little at times (I guess I prefer the suggestion style more), but I'm used to it now and just continue on with the story part.
I kind of think of my mother with these comments. As someone gets older they don't hide their opinions any more. They are just out there and you deal with it. I think that, since the author was in her 70's when she wrote this, it might have had some influence in the way that she writes this story. What do you think?
That is a strong possibility, Meg. We joke about my mom and say she has lost "all her filters" when she sometimes says things.
Meg: Your comment made me laugh, but I think it's highly probable.
I'm giggling at myself right now guys. I haven't noticed any of Kaye's opinions for enjoying the read. I must be too wrapped up in the story. But, I'm probably not as far along...haven't gotten to the third section yet.
So I was reading some of the reviews and wanted to share part of one and was wondering what you thought of this:M. M Kaye does a magnificent job depicting the various cultures and systems of thought prevalent in India and the surrounding areas at the time. For the most part she does so without giving any value judgement, but she is not timid about pointing out that every culture has its fanatics and that these can cause many problems for the bulk of the population who just want to live their lives in peace. She also excellently conveys the inherent sadness of a situation where caste laws and religious differences come between people who otherwise love one another. By placing her protagonist squarely between two dominant cultures, she illustrates the loneliness of a person who cannot see things in terms of black or white, or adhere to an ill-advised policy merely because it is advanced by people of the same race and beliefs.
I would agree with most of this...but I tend to think that she is more sympathetic toward the Indian culture. ...or at least, thinks it deserving of more explanation and pardoning.
Well she lived in India until she was 10 and then sent to England to be properly educated. Then eventually she found her way back to India. That is why I am feeling Ash is semiautobiographical. She always had a great love for India and found England very boring.
Oh definitely. Ash's circumstances (the ages when he was sent away and brought back) are far too similar to her own to not have been intentional.
The line about the loneliness of those who can not see the world as black and white caught my imagination. I never really thought about it, but there is comfort and security when you are able to define views in a way that is consistant with a larger group. But, what about those who can see multiple views, who see the grey area? Ash is caught in the middle having feet and identity in two dominant cultures. But, he has a clear sense of right and wrong, a bit of a black and white thinker, even if that is not the same black and white of those around him.
I agree Irene. It's like Ash sees everything as either completely right or completely wrong, but without the strain of a national or religious affiliation to sway his morals.
Hi ladies, I hope everyone is having a good week!I'm trying to get caught up on the third section. I'm just into chapter 14, and fascinated by this bridal procession of 8,000 plus animals. Having a difficult time getting my mind wrapped around this. It mentions their weekly travel of 50/60 miles, and I'm wondering how far they will travel. Can't wait to find out what this journey brings.
I imagined that procession being like a traveling city. lol. I can't believe Ash was supposed to manage that massive group practically single-handedly.
I admit it is hard to imagine. No pressure Collin, do what you can.
Chapter 24 (spoilers)So in Chapter 24, the inevitable happens, the love affair begins. Do you think it is a good thing for Ash, or is he again placed in limbo? Is this the way his life will always be? Would it be better to have not begun?
(If you are further along no spoilers please)
"Would it be better to have not begun?"I don't think there's ever a way to avoid love. If it's coming for you, you're doomed to face up to it. I guess I'm kind of like the Indians in that respect, thinking our fate is sealed to an extent.
Ash is also very impulsive, acting on emotion and his values with very little thought to how it will be received. I think, even if he knew from the very beginning how all of his choices played out, he wouldn't be able to change them because in any situation he only sees one path: the one his heart tells him is right.
I don't see the love affair as a good thing or a bad thing for Ash, as I can't imagine it not happening at all. Juli said she started loving him before she even realized who he was when he rescued her from the river, and she started planning on committing "the act" of love even before he realized it may happen.
I see their love as being something sweet and somewhat predestined. I don't think either one of them could have put their feelings aside and of course fate again threw them together in that cave on that one night. Whatever the consequences will be they will be. I feel sure there will be a child resulting from this relationship and that even though Ash will need to say goodbye to Juli, they will find their paths crossing again.
I sympathized so much with Ash. It would be maddening to have Shushila, the spoiled daughter of a woman who tried to kill him, be the reason he was forced to let the woman he loves go. :/
I guess what bothers me the most is that poor Ash can't ever win. His love for her is doomed, their position in Indian society is too different and forbidden.
I am really enjoying the book. I'm not caught up yet, so I am trying to not read all comments just yet. I did make it to chapter 22 over Spring Break so I am right behind all of you.
Sandra wrote: "I am really enjoying the book. I'm not caught up yet, so I am trying to not read all comments just yet. I did make it to chapter 22 over Spring Break so I am right behind all of you."I've got a couple of pages left in chapter 22. It's getting SO good! I can't wait to get caught up.
:) These sure are really big pages with teeny, tiny words.
At the end of book 4:"Once again the future yawned before him as lonely and dark and cold as outer space, and as endless as eternity, and there seemed no point in living if he must live without Juli. Bitterness and self-pity welled up in him, bringing its own weakness and making him less a man, so that glancing down a tht edrop below the parapet it occurred to him for the first time how easy it would be to put an end to it all."
I wonder if there is any hope for Ash to be happy. this kind of reminds me, so far, of the Indian version of Romeo and Juliet.
It was so hard not to cheat and skip to the end of this one. I can't help but feel overwhelmingly sorry for these two. Nothing has ever been easy for them.
It is very sad for Ash.I do want to find out how it's going to turn out, but I'm plodding along without cheating....for now ;)
Haha. Hang in there Beth, it's worth the wait. ;)
I just can't see anything but gloom and doom for poor Ash. I so hope I am wrong.I also was amazed at the whole preparation for the wedding and how many people it all involved.
We think we have elaborate weddings today. This one is over the top. I wonder how much this one cost? It is fascinating though the amount of wealth that these Rana's had.
Wow, I was able to pick up a copy of this book at a thrift store a couple of weeks ago, and I dove right in, hoping to get caught up. I can hardly put it down. Kaye's writing is beautiful, and almost has this cynical old lady believing in noble young love again!
LOL, we all need to believe in love! I am glad you are joining us Sharon.
Meg wrote: "LOL, we all need to believe in love! I am glad you are joining us Sharon."yeah, we do! :)
I'm really enjoying this book; I was up until almost 2:30 a.m. last night.
I don't know about you guys, but I enjoyed the healthy dose of history mingling with the love story. Having known NOTHING about the British Raj and British struggles with Afganistan, I found it fascinating.
I found myself wanted Ash to be with Juli. She seems to make him a better person. Through her he came to realize so much about his life.I also want to know how these people can afford such elaborate things.
Carrie wrote: "I don't know about you guys, but I enjoyed the healthy dose of history mingling with the love story. Having known NOTHING about the British Raj and British struggles with Afganistan, I found it fa..."I know, it's so interesting.
