"Lions of al-Rassan" The Ending*Spoilers*

[[deleted user]]

I just finished this book today. I'm still trying to come to terms with it, though. It was just so... gah. I just can't find the words yet.

So instead, I'll ask a question of you all:

For those of you who have finished, what did you think of the ending? Did you see it coming from a mile away, or did it come as a complete shock?

[Janny]

Kay's works tend to have a haunting aspect to them - I read this book when it came out, and the recall is still very clear, years later: he drew up the conflict between nations and ideologies such that the wrenching moment when the characters would be forced, against mutual respect and friendship, to take sides was inevitable.

The question became: how would they handle it? Would they run, or would they stay true to the ideology of their nation. He painted the characters strongly enough that you dreaded; you wished they'd bend.

That was the crux of the story - and yes, he built in that inevitability.

SPOILER! when the fight did happen, the fact it was offstaged was a bit of a kindness. I recall being shredded. Hating to turn the page. Dreading to see which would survive; the doom of the whole scenario.

I dreaded as much as anything the rupture of the ties of friendship.

The way the ending was handled - the bittersweet way that integrity was kept, after national loyalty was held so tragically inviolate - was masterful. The tragedy of the loss kept its keen edge, but the triumph of the human character of the survivors was able to rise above - I liked the ending, and felt it was deeply satisfying.

Gah? I'll be very curious to see how you define that. ;)

[Jon]

@Janny: Your observation about the 'haunting aspect' of Kay's novels nails it for me. His work haunts me years later.

And the fight between Rodrigo and Ammar as seen from the eyes of their women with a sun setting as the backdrop ... priceless.

[Dawn]

I don't know if I was surprised at the outcome, but I loved the way Kay keeps you guessing. The way the POV passes around, and you get a piece of the scene from each person, you think you know what happened but you never know for sure. He did it a couple times, and I really liked it.

******End of Book Spoilers******

I had a feeling it would be Rodrigo that died, and I loved the way Miranda was so selfless about it. When she thought about how she and Rodrigo had had already had their time... Heart breaking! But then even after it happened, you have no idea if you are right or not. I went through so many epiphany moments, it was pretty funny. I'd be reading and then become convinced Ammar had died and Jehane had married Alvar, and then two seconds later I'd become convinced otherwise. I hated the thought that Jehane and Alvar would have ended up together, so I was really pleased with the outcome.

********End Spoilers*******

So was I surprised? Yes then no then yes again then no. LOL :)

[Dawn]

Oh, one more thing I wanted to mention. My absolute favorite scene in the book.

********SPOIILERS**********

Forgive me if I get names wrong or have forgotten them, I read this a couple months ago and don't have my copy to reference. But my favorite scene was when Ishak saved Rodrigo's son. I gotta admit, I was crying like a little baby when I thought the son was dead. And his brother and his mother asking if he was dead, it was like a knife to the heart. And the Ishak is just like "I got this", and saves his life... Crazy! Ishak is the man.

[Maggie]

I was not really surprised at the outcome either, it seemed pretty obvious what was going to happen. Although I found it a bit incongrous that Ammar would defy the King he had shown so much loyalty to for Rodrigo, yet end up killing Rodrigo anyway. It didnt seem to mesh for me.
I also was not feeling the romance between Ammar and Jehane. I sensed a bit of it with Rodrigo, but really felt like neither of them would betray Rodrigo's marraige. And the feint of making the reader wonder of Alvar had married Jahane didn't jive either. So I guess I was not really feeling the various motivations.
That being said, I thought the writing was wonderful. As Janny said I can imagine being able to recall it years from now. I stayed interested most of the way through, and really enjoyed it.
I don't think it's fantasy either. An extra moon and a psychic doesnt make it fantasy!

[[deleted user]]

Bill wrote: "I'm going to go out on a limb here and disagree with Janny (and probably a lot of other fans of this book as well).

I was not really surprised that one of two main guys had to die at the end. I a..."

In all honesty, it was pretty obvious for a while that one of them would die. And I had a good idea it was going to be Rodrigo going into it, as that was what made the most sense.

But I still loved the scene itself, probably specifically because of the drama of it all.

As to the epilogue ending, written with the same type of feint that Kay used several times in the book, I was happy with it and was pretty sure there was no way Jehane would've married Alvar, so wasn't surprised to see that was the case.

[Chris]

I wasn't surprised by the eventual outcome, once we got there. But like Dawn said, it shifted viewpoint around and Kay played it well so that the reader didn't really know until the epilogue what had truly happened there at the end. While the outcome wasn't unexpected, the delivery kept me guessing and wondering. Kept my interest and kept me on the edge of my seat.

So no, it's not "just Dawn" that the ending worked for. It definitely worked for me too.

I will say that I agree with those saying that they didn't buy the romance between Ammar and Jehane. I didn't either. I didn't so much hate it, but it seemed thin to me. Perhaps because Kay did such a fine job in creating the attraction between Rodrigo and Jehane, and the temptation that they each struggled with in regard to each other. But at just the moment when that whole thing came to its climax, it felt like Jehane just all of a sudden fell all over Ammar. That seemed too sudden to me.

But really, it's a minor flaw in an otherwise fantastic novel.

Oh yes, I agree with Dawn above where she points out her favorite scene. That had me pretty emotional as well. I think that's the parent in me that was tugging on.

[Dawn]

That's ok Bill, no offense was taken by me... :)


It's funny that people mention Jehane and Ammar's relationship not being believable, I didn't get that at all. But then again, I was totally in love with both Ammar and Rodrigo, so it wasn't a stretch for me to believe she could be in love with both as well. And the kiss Ammar and Jehane shared in the very beginning totally set the scene for future sexual tension between them, only complicated by her having met Rodrigo before she saw Ammar again.

[Michelle]

Dawn, can I just agree with everything you've said here? I'm likewise thoroughly in love with the setting of the final battle in the distance with their families watching from the hills. I like to think it's done that way because it doesn't matter who wins, it's the living that have to pick up the pieces and go on.

and wow, I was lit on fire pissed off at the thought in the coda that Jehane ended up with Alvar, so kay's feint worked cruelly for a few minutes, anyway.

[RockStar PH]

I have to agree with Dawn and Michelle as well. But not only Jehane and Ammar, I found every relationship built by Kay was believable and tangible.
In all honesty I loved this book, and am very glad I decided to read along with this one. I have had Kay on my TBR list for a while after someone reccommended him to me as "epic fantasy comparable to Joe Abercrombie". Now, being a huge Abercrombie fan, I had alot of reservations going into this read but I was definately not disappointed.
What I loved about the story was the setting. It wasnt given to you with this overload of information, but very gradually as it was important to the story. I found it very easy to build this world in my head and have a fairly clear understanding of where things should be located in regards to other places. I read this as an ebook, so I don't know if there was a map in the book or not, so this comment may mean nothing to others. :)
My opinion of the changing POV during big events is a big thumbs up! I was completely enthralled by this method I must admit haha. I enjoy the way Kay holds out until the last possible moment to give you the big news when someone dies. I found that it definately pushed me to read longer than I had intended to at certain points.
I did figure that atleast one of the main heroes characters would die. It seems to be a trend of epic fantasy. An ending can't seem to have more than one surviving hero.
As an intro to Kay I was very impressed and will definately be reading more of his books in the future.

[[deleted user]]

Do you think the Abercrombie comparison is correct?

[RockStar PH]

I think that it is a very fair comparison. The way that they do POV and epic fantasy setting is very similar. Abercrombie is very military oriented as well, though he spends more time in the battles themselves than Kay does.

Abercrombie has more "fantasy" in his works when it comes to supernatural beings and magic, even though he has very little. Since this is the only Kay book I have read I can't say whether this is correct with all his works or just The Lions of al-Rassan. I find that with Abercrombie's characters you are really in their heads. You get to know what they are thinking and are able to almost anticipate their actions. Kay on the other-hand seems to build his characters around emotional bonds with other characters, instead of building them individually as Abercrombie does. Both seem to have a comparable war/action vs. character development theme though.

I do find that Abercrombie is a little faster paced. But this doesn't mean that I find Kay slow. IMO each author holds your attention differently. This is a style of epic fantasy that I really enjoy and having read everything that Abercrombie has put out so far, it is nice to have something similar to go to. I'm finding Kay to be similar enough to keep me in my comfort zone but different enough to keep me motivated and captivated.

[[deleted user]]

I've read a few Abercrombie and Lions was my first Kay. And while I can see some similarities, I attribute that to the genre itself and not in style.

They just come off very differently to me.

[Maggie]

wow-I love Abercrombie and didn't get that at all until you said something. I agree that the POV style is very similar.
I liked this book, but thought it was a much lighter read than an Abercrombie.

[Bagheera]

I enjoyed the book despite being pretty certain of the ending after a scene near the end of Part 1. It was the scene where Jehane parts ways with the horsemen after the raid on Orvilla, and Rodrigo says something like "even the sun goes down."

Ammar is an odd character, though, and I'm still not sure what to think about him. It was hard to know who he actually was, since it seemed like most of what was said about him was legend and not fact. I felt like he was a man that gave the impression of having done a lot of things, not a man who had actually done them. The two murders he certainly carried out, but in both he seems to have been manipulated. Add to that the act of running to save Rodrigo, and he doesn't seem to at all deserver the title of 'subtle'. Yet when he speaks he always knows what is going on and is an expert at manipulating...

[Teresa]

Dawn wrote: "Oh, one more thing I wanted to mention. My absolute favorite scene in the book.

********SPOIILERS**********

Forgive me if I get names wrong or have forgotten them, I read this a couple months ago..."

I agree! This was my favorite part of the book also and I was crying too. I thought Diego was dead and then here comes the Doc! Wow!

[Travis]

I know the buddy read for this starts today. I'll be joining for sure, but a few days late --- after finishing Black Leopard, Red Wolf.

[Gabi]

Same here, I'm still reading "The famished road" and don't want to interrupt it.

[Mareike]

I will probably also start a few days late, but I'm definitely still on for this one!
Should we move the date or do we just all wander in whenever we start?

[Dawn F]

Well I started early and will finish it today XD I don’t mind if it’s pushed forward, though, I’ll judt wait with a review :)

[Ariana]

I wanted to join for a reread since I loved it when I read it but it's been ages. Black Leopard, Red Wolf is taking me a while though (not in a bad way!), Remnant Population is coming up, and I usually try to prioritize new reads over rereads... But I missed the Tigana BR also, which I was bummed about, so I am conflicted.

[Gabi]

I guess I can start this weekend (provided I keep my fingers from my tablet pen). If we push it much further I have the "Kindred" Group shelf read.

[Travis]

Dawn wrote: "Well I started early and will finish it today XD I don’t mind if it’s pushed forward, though, I’ll judt wait with a review :)"

Looking forward to hearing what you thought about it, Dawn!

[Mareike]

Gabi wrote: "I guess I can start this weekend (provided I keep my fingers from my tablet pen). If we push it much further I have the "Kindred" Group shelf read."

Ah, ok. We can just leave it where it is and people drop in whenever they start.

[Dawn F]

Thanks, Travis, I’m afraid it’s not very positive, which I’m so sad about since I loved Tigana so much!

[Gabi]

I could start any day now. What about other folks?

[Noor]

Just checked it out from my library so I'll probably start soon-ish.

[Mareike]

I think I'll put Big Ship at the Edge of the Universe on hold and join you for this whenever you want to start.

[Noor]

Well, I've just started.

Last time I read this I remember having some issues with it and generally not finding it as awesome as, say, Tigana or some of Kay's other works like Under Heaven, but by the time I got to the ending I felt like the emotions presented at the end made it a worthwhile read. I'm curious to see if it'll play out the same way the second time around.

[Gabi]

I started as well. The dramatis personae already give me the impression that I will most certainly confuse characters :).'

ETA: chapter 1 (view spoiler)[, I like the introduction of the social and political settings. It's slow enough for me to get a picture (I have no clue of Spanish history to draw parallels). It is interesting to see how physicians worked in this time. Nice that it starts with an independent female character.
The occurence of the Day of the Moat was cleverly constructed. Everything went so smooth and descriptive up to this point that I had to read the passage twice, cause I couldn't believe it the first time. (hide spoiler)]

another ETA:

Chapters 2+3, (view spoiler)[ I digged the introduction of Alvar de Pellino. He sounds like a cute character and I love to read more of him.
The fate of Jehane's father sounded quite familiar to me. I haven't read many historical novels, so I'm not sure where I encountered this. But somewhere I read something like the cesarian delivery and the punishment for it before. The whole idea of practicing medicine without actually touching/seeing is fascinating. How people work around moral standards is somehow admirable (for nowadays standards silly, but still admirable).
I already like the characters of Jehane, Ammar and Alvar. (hide spoiler)]

[Mareike]

Gabi wrote: "I started as well. The dramatis personae already give me the impression that I will most certainly confuse characters :).'

ETA: chapter 1 , [spoiler removed]

I agree (view spoiler)[on the gradual introduction of the world and on Jehane, Ammar, and Alvar.

I wasn't sure when starting out how much I liked the fact that this is so clearly rooted in Spanish history, but so far, I think he's doing quite well with it. (hide spoiler)]

[Noor]

(view spoiler)[ Glad I'm not the only one who found the setting it was based on ALOT more obvious with this than any of the other Kay books I've read. I also don't know how much I like the obviousness... it makes the "differences" between the fantasy world and the actual stuff it's based on seem a little more annoying/forced when I can see them so clearly. Perhaps this will change once we settle into the novel a bit more.

But you're right. Chapter one wasn't a bad start and let us get to know Jehane pretty well at least along with some of the political stuff going on! That ending! It just occurred to me what was up with Ammar's "amusement" ... *shudder* (hide spoiler)]

On to chapter two I guess.

[Gabi]

I love the moorish setting! And I'm pleasantly surprised that I have no problems with the who-is-who so far. All introductions were well executed.

Chapter 5 (view spoiler)[ This reeks of a pending catastrophe, but for how Miranda Belmonte is one hell of a woman! Love her! (hide spoiler)]

[Mareike]

Noor wrote: "[spoiler removed]"

(view spoiler)[No, it is pretty obvious. I'm still not 100% sure how I feel about this. On the one hand, I like when I can guess at real world inspirations for stories, but there's pitfalls when it's this obvious. Especially with the period of history he has chosen. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 6 (view spoiler)[I really like Miranda and the dynamic between her and Rodrigo.
Though I can't quite help but note that he feels similar to Rovigo in Tigana, not only because of the name, but also in the way he keeps joking about his wife. (hide spoiler)]

[Gabi]

Mareike wrote: "

Chapter 6 (view spoiler)[I really like Miranda and the dynamic between her and Rodrigo.
Though I can't quite help but note that he feels similar to Rovigo in ..." (hide spoiler)]

I have this feeling with several of the characters (view spoiler)[ GGK uses certain prototypes of characters here as well as in Tigana. His protagonists are overall more like templates than they are real life persons. In the settings he chooses, this works for me, though. (hide spoiler)]

General observation up to chapter 12 (view spoiler)[ I'm so grinning at every man being so sexual persistent. Works well with the template characters. (hide spoiler)]

That said, I'm still enjoying the story and the characters very much. It is quite different from what I usually read.

[Mareike]

It works for me so far. I hope that holds and that I'll have more time to continue reading tonight.

[Travis]

Just started. What an opening chapter that was...

[Mareike]

Travis wrote: "Just started. What an opening chapter that was..."

Agreed!

[Mareike]

Chapter 7 (view spoiler)[I did not think Ammar's revenge would happen so quickly. The opening scene in the courtroom before the assassination was really well done. The tension was palpable. I liked that we got a bit of Ammar's perspective in the latter part of the chapter. Though I'm not sure how believable I find Zabira's actions. (hide spoiler)]

[Travis]

Another similarity between this and Tigana (spoiler only through chapter 2 or so):

(view spoiler)[The maternal male servant Velaz reminds me of the eunuch servant in Tigana. At one point Jehane even complains that he reminder her of her mother. The similarity has me wondering if Velaz is not long for this world.

A difference too: I had reservations at the beginning of Tigana about the representation of women almost exclusively through sex and desire. This book isn't giving me any similar misgivings.

All in all, I'm really loving many of these characters and thoroughly enjoying the book. It's a refreshing change from the bleakness of Black Leopard, Red Wolf, the book I just finished. (hide spoiler)]

[Mareike]

Travis wrote: "Another similarity between this and Tigana (spoiler only through chapter 2 or so):

[Spoiler removed]

I agree. (view spoiler)[I had similar reservations going in. I think this book is doing better so far, especially with Jehane and Miranda. (hide spoiler)]

[Noor]

So I just finished chapter 7 and (view spoiler)[there have been three sex scenes in the past three chapters. Seriously? Why? Why not spend some time making us like ANY of the characters instead of this...?

Also, is it just me or does it seem extremely contrived that all three main characters are going to the same place? And the two male main characters have both been exiled by their Kings who actually love them/owe them a lot, but are forced to do it because reasons of politics... *sigh* (hide spoiler)]

I would probably DNF this at this point if for for two things:
a) this buddy read
b) I remember the ending being pretty good

[Gabi]

Noor wrote: "So I just finished chapter 7 and ..."

Well I, at least, dig the characters very much. I'm in the last quarter now. And although the prose doesn't reach anywhere near the one in Tigana, I like the book a lot.

[Dawn F]

Noor wrote: "So I just finished chapter 7..."

Yeah I could absolutely do without them. I was not impressed with the story at all and also only finished it as to not have wasted the time already spent on it. And Kay still writes really well but nothing moved me in this, unlike Tigana. Save for one scene exactly, I just never cared for anything that was going on in this.

[Mareike]

Noor wrote: "So I just finished chapter 7 and [spoiler removed]..."

I agree that (view spoiler)[the sex scenes were not necessary for the plot. They still felt.....less annoying than the ones in Tigana for me. I have more to say about some later chapters, but we can do that once you get there. In general, I agree that Kay could/should scale down the amount of gratuitous sex in his books.

Hm....to me, the characters ending up in the same kingdom made sense given what we have learned about the political situation so far. It's definitely very, very convenient, but it didn't feel too contrived. (hide spoiler)]

@Dawn: I'm kind of glad that I saw your updates as you read it because it made me scale down my expectations a bit. Which, I think, explains why I'm still enjoying the book so far. I feel like I owe you a "thank you" for that.

[Travis]

Mareike wrote: "@Dawn: I'm kind of glad that I saw your updates as you read it because it made me scale down my expectations a bit. Which, I think, explains why I'm still enjoying the book so far. I feel like I owe you a "thank you" for that.."

I agree. Those really helped, and I'm enjoying it as a fun story with some great characters.

[Mareike]

Chapter 8 (view spoiler)[This was a long one.
I'm intrigued by the connection between Rodrigo and Ammar.
Not sure yet what I make of Jehane's attraction (if that's what you want to call it) to them. But I do like that we have gotten to know her as doctor first and then as a woman who's in charge of her own sexuality. (I still think Kay could/should scale all of that down, but at least Jehane is not a blushing virgin when she meets these two...)

I did roll my eyes, however, at the throwaway line that Jehane was mostly relaying Alvar's thoughts about politics in her talks with Mazur. Really? This woman, who's a doctor, and a good deal older than him and had a prominent father who worked at court in Cartada needs a young soldier's thoughts to be able to have a conversation about politics? Come on. (hide spoiler)]

[Noor]

Mareike wrote: "Chapter 8..."


Yup, rolling my eyes with you! Also, chapter 9 (view spoiler)[almost made me stop again... well, I did stop, but I want to finish it. Such a tedious, stereotypical and annoying chapter with annoying characters I don't care about! (hide spoiler)]

Well, now that's out of my system... I'll try to plough on ahead.

[Mareike]

Noor wrote: "Mareike wrote: "Chapter 8..."


Yup, rolling my eyes with you! Also, chapter 9 [spoilers removed]

Well, now that's out of my system... I'll try to plough on ahead."

I agree. The first half of that chapter (view spoiler)[seemed especially rooted in stereotypes. (hide spoiler)]

I have made it to chapter 12 (view spoiler)[and things are certainly coming to a head. I hope Jehane's parents will be okay, but chances are probably slim. (hide spoiler)]