The Bronze Horseman discussion
The Books
>
Why did you forgive Alexander for Dasha?
I feel like the relationship between Dasha and Alexander was done before he me Tatiana... meaning that once Alexander met Tatiana that was it... he wanted to tell Dasha but she would not let him hurt her sister. So for me it was not an issue. I was more mad at Tatiana for playing games. It does make for a great story :)
I agree that Dasha and Alexander were 'over' as soon as he met Tatiana, however only in his mind. He still continued to see Dasha, have sex with her, be with her in everyone's eyes except his and Tatiana's (which she even questions sometimes). So I think this is what she has to forgive.
Did he have sex with her after? I must have forgotten that...
He did heaps! A few times when Tatiana had to wait on the roof while they were downstairs just the two of them, and also a few times just after he met Tatiana. Plus there was the time at the wharf or something and they'd just had sex and he broke up with her and she started crying.
How could I have forgotten that... I feel like a dork. But it's been Awaile since I read TBH. Might be time to re-read it. I must say that's really nasty he did that! That's a lot to forgive.
There is a lot of discussion on different forums about Alexander and Dasha's relationship after he met Tatiana. It is very fascinating to me that different people reading the same book interpreter it very differently. As I see it, Alexander only continued the relationship with Dasha because he wanted to be closer to Tatiana and keep her safe during the blockade and Tatiana made it very clear to him that if he broke up with Dasha he would never be able to see her. As for the sex, I do not think Dasha and Alexander had sex after Tatiana returned from Luga, even when Dasha would ask her to wait on the roof and give them privacy. Later, during the blockade Dasha and Tatiana are having conversation about their periods. Dasha says that she doesn't have them anymore and Tatiana asks if Dasha thinks she is pregnant. Dasha replies that she hasn't been with Alexander in this way since August.This is how I understood this whole situation and for me it was not difficult to forgive Alexander.
I agree with your comments about why he stayed with Dasha etc, and that he didn't sleep with her after Luga! Though Tatiana and Alexander met in June, so he was still sleeping with Dasha for 2 months then. I don't think there's confirmation either way whether they were having sex while Tatiana was on the roof, though Dasha asked her to go there to give them privacy so I'd say some stuff happened.
Dasha informed Tatiana that she and Alexander hadn't slept together since August... This was mentioned near the end of Leningrad... Right before they escaped and Dasha died.
I didn't have an issue with Alexander having sex with Dasha, he's a guy and Tatiana was the one who rejected him, what I had an issue with was Alexander agreeing to marry Dasha. A sexual relationship, especially a soldier in the army in war is a temporary situation, but marriage (or the promise of marriage) is permanent... That was more a betrayal than shagging Dasha in my eyes. I guess Paullina Simons included that knowing Tatiana and Alexander would be together, but the reader didn't know what events were going to happen at the time, so when I read that I was like "you bastard!" It was a huge risk, and that was something that brought me back to thinking it's only fiction. I often got so consumed with the story that on more than one occasion, I forgot it wasn't real, and I think that in real life, with a love as intense as Tatiana's & Alexander's, you wouldn't put yourself in a situation where you might marry your true love's sister...
Mumbo, I totally agree with you. I was upset with Alexander a lot more for agreeing to marry Dasha then having sex with her in the early days, just after he met Tatiana. Also I didn't really understand why he had to write that letter to Dasha in Lazarevo saying that he is coming to marry her. That was very upsetting.But on the other hand, this is why I like Alexander as a character so much. He is human, he is flawed and he makes mistakes. I would not love him as much if he was absolutely perfect (boring).
Mod
My understanding was that Dasha and Alexander stopped sleeping together after Luga also. When Dasha confronts Tatia about her and Alexander Tatiana says don't you make sweet love and Dasha replies that they had not been together since August. I always felt Alexander was honest with Tatiana when it came to him and Dasha's relationship.
Milena wrote: "There is a lot of discussion on different forums about Alexander and Dasha's relationship after he met Tatiana. It is very fascinating to me that different people reading the same book interpreter ..."I agree Milena everyone sees it different because it is not spelled out.
After many rereads I believe that he absolutely never had sex with Dasha after Luga.
Mod
Oh yeah... thanks for the reminder Kelly!
I agree I don't think they slept together after Luga, but they definately did for the 2 months before - that's 2 months he loved Tatiana but still slept with Dasha! I also think it's hard because at the time Tatiana didn't know what they were doing when she was on the roof - Dasha always asked her to go up there to give her and Alexander privacy, and I think that would be so hard for her.
Umm, wasn't that after Luga? I could've sworn she was up on the roof with a broken leg? I thought Luga was only about a month after they met?
Yep, I just checked my copy of TBH, they were definitely having it off after Luga - page 170, Tatiana and Dimitri on the roof and Alexander & Dasha in her bedroom. Tatiana left for Luga page 124.
They didn't have sex though... Dasha tells Tatiana that later in the book, Not from Dasha's lack of trying though.. No sex after Luga.. By Dasha's own account they stopped in August, which is the same time frame, and Alexander confirmes it aswell.
We don't exactly know what happened when Tatiana was on the roof. That is right that Dasha would ask Tatiana to go up, so she would have privacy with Alexander, but we don't actually know if they had sex.Definately it was very hard for Tatiana to be on the roof and not knowing what was going on between Shura and Dasha.
I agree it bothererd me that he agreed to marry Dasha
Shell wrote: "They didn't have sex though... Dasha tells Tatiana that later in the book, Not from Dasha's lack of trying though.. No sex after Luga.. By Dasha's own account they stopped in August, which is the s..."Yes, you're right, Shell! I was sooo happy when I read that. I did NOT want them doing anything after Shura met Tatiana, but I especially didn't want them having sex.
The marriage proposal was rough, and I was mad at Shura too. The situation was such a mess though, and they were so young. So many mistakes and wrong moves there!
Viola wrote: "Shell wrote: "They didn't have sex though... Dasha tells Tatiana that later in the book, Not from Dasha's lack of trying though.. No sex after Luga.. By Dasha's own account they stopped in August, ..."After reading T&A you see what a DOG Alexander was!! I mean his # is higher than the national debt. LOL
For me that is one of the things he loves about Tatia she is so pure and innocent.
Okay so how did I forgive Alexander for Dasha? Well now that I’m halfway through T & A I guess I’m feeling a little more charitable in the Dasha department. I was comforted with Dasha’s admission that their sexual relationship ended in August, albeit a month to long in my opinion. As for the marriage proposal I’m currently not of sound mind to share my feelings. With that said, I was disheartened with Alexander’s complete disregard for his mother’s “coming of age speech/advise”. Why Alexander…why? Oh and Hello, what’s with the double standard Alexander? I mean without giving anything away, I certainly was frowning during Alexander’s 20 question session.. I could be wrong but behind the surprise and gratitude I felt an underlining expectation. I’m going to stop now because I’ve gone off topic and I don’t want any hate mail.
Silvana~Duchess of Avonlea~ wrote: "Okay so how did I forgive Alexander for Dasha? Well now that I’m halfway through T & A I guess I’m feeling a little more charitable in the Dasha department. I was comforted with Dasha’s admission t..."Silvana
Are you referring to when he is asking Tatiana if she has been with anyone since him??
I’m actually thinking of the tent scene where Alexander asks her if anyone has seen her naked, touched her etc. To me it seemed that although he was certainly appreciative of her “pure” status there was an expectation. Maybe I’m being too hard on him because of his pre-Tatiana encounters. I hope I get to the scene you’re refereeing to soon because I’m getting impatient.
The Dasha situation bothered me more than any part of the book... including the end. Alexander used Dasha to see Tatiana and that is not alright. I know Tatiana told him to go away but he didn't. If Tatiana was so concerned about Dasha, than how could she let Alexander use her sister that way? Tatiana came back from Luga and the hospital in August and Dasha didn't sleep with Alexander since August but who knows when in that month. I cannot believe that once Dasha had him alone in a room she would be alright with Alexander denying her sex when they'd been having it all along. I wasn't upset about them together until after the hospital. Then I thought it was just wrong. I think Dasha and Alexander stopped sleeping together after St. Issacs which was a few weeks after she returned from the hospital. With that being said, Alexander KNEW how much it must have HURT Tatiana to go up on that roof knowing he and Dasha were alone (and knowing she knew it too). I cannot believe he let her be hurt like that. If Tatiana had to pick between getting hit by her father or Alexander and Dasha alone in HER bed while she sat on the roof, I bet she'd pick the former. He could have spared her that agnst and did not. I think it would have been easier for Alexander to tell Dasha he was not comfortable with going into she and her sister's room and bed than it would be to tell her, while in a room alone and in a bed, that he would not have sex with her.
About the marriage thing... I would love to know what would have happened if Dasha was in Lazervo.
With all this being said, I love, love, love this book and (obviously) have very strong feelings regarding Dasha.
Lol~ I hear ya Amy~ It wasn't an easy situation to read~ Much less be a part of for the characters~ Myself~ I do believe Alex denied Dasha sex those times in the bedrooms~ Why? Beacause at this point it was all a facade~ A means to be near Tatiana and to protect her~ Which had become Alexander's entire focus . Yes the situation was wrong~ On both Tatiana's and Alexander's part~ However~ Love is not a rational emotion~ therefor can not be expected to be reasoned with in a rational matter all the time~ These two had a love against all odds~ Tatiana wouldn't be with Alexander knowing her sisters emotional involvment~ Plus she couldn't deal with the repercussions from her family if they had known of her feelings~ In a 10X10 room that they were all forced to share, left little room for escape from what would have been rampant disapproval. At this point Tatiana was very much a little girl herself still~ Naive to the ways of the world and opening her eyes for the first time~ She still needed her family and was affraid of leavintg them behind and hurting them with her love for Alexander. No~ It wasn't the perfect situation~ Yes I did too feel bad for Dasha~ (in spite of the fact, I simply couldn't stand the chick)~ Still Love isn't perfect~ Nor is it always understandible~ It just is~ And I personally believe you should NEVER ignore it~ Regardless of your surrounding situatuion~ Life is too short to let it pass by.
Shell wrote: "Lol~ I hear ya Amy~ It wasn't an easy situation to read~ Much less be a part of for the characters~ Myself~ I do believe Alex denied Dasha sex those times in the bedrooms~ Why? Beacause at this poi...":)
Hi Shell! I don't disagree with you (and believe me, I don't like Dasha either) but Tatiana was only not being with Alexander out in the open. She was more than willing to lock lips with him in secret. She just didn't want Dasha to find out about it. That is what I have a problem with. Did Dasha deserve that? I don't think so. I agree love should not be ignored and they didn't - to each other. Sex. I can't agree about Dasha and Alexander not having sex while Tatiana was on the roof. It seems more likely to me that it was after St. Issacs and Marina and grandma moving in that it stopped. I cannot imagine Dasha not throwing a fit about the fact that Alexander wasn't giving it up when they finally have some consistant privacy. That doesn't sound like Dasha to me.
Again, with this being said... if it played out the way I think is "right" then there wouldn't be much of a story and it is a fantastic story!
Also there is a Dimitry situation. The facade was not just for the benefit of Dasha and family but for Dimitry too. If you remember the conversation that Shura and Tatia had in St. Isaacs about what Dimitry wants from Alexander and the ways he can hurt him, then it is more understandable why they felt that they needed to keep to lie to everyone. Although I am not saying it is right or wrong and I totally agree with Amy, that's why this book is so good.
Amy I agree with everything you said - couldn't have put it better myself!
Yes Milena: I had forgotten about that..(How?? I don't know~ Kinda important peice of the story~ Bad TBH fan~ Bad~ lol)~ Anyways~ Yes the Dimitri situation was more of a problem than the others~ Alexander cound't risk his Ire~ That would have been an instant death sentance~ How did I not mention that before~ Ugh didn't even cross my mind~ Like I said~ Ima bad TBH fan~ Oh well~ time for a re-read :)
I hear where your coming from Amy~ I do see and agree with your point~ I guess I was just willing to over look the nastiness cause I wanted too~ Lol~ I wanted~ No~ needed them to end up together I didn't care who they stepped on in the process~ That kinda sounds bitchy~ I know~ Normally I am an extremely empathetic individual but couldn't find it within me to be so with Dasha.
Although I don't want to think that Alexander would be with Dasha sexually after Luga I think it is plausible. Consider his past in T&A when he goes through all the girls I was just sick!!!! Alexander is a very sexual man. So while he may have been having "sex" with Dasha it was only sex!
So, I just went back and read parts of TBH to see if I could work out the sex and timing issue. I have to say, that I really believe that Alexander stopped having sex with Dasha in August, like she said, but that it was after the hospital, at the time of St. Issacs. The reason I say this is because, after Tatiana's dad hit her and Alexander stuck up for her, Dimitri tells Alexander that Tatiana does not need to be around the likes of him. In their bunks that night one of the soldiers asked Alexander if he wanted him to bring him girls and he said something like, no and not again. They teased him about the talking in his sleep. He than thought to himself that he had to deserve the light to get it. The next night Tatiana came to St. Issacs. I think that was the point in which he decided not to have sex with Dasha anymore; to deserve the love of Tatiana. At St. Issacs he tells her that all of "those things" are gone from his life. Just my two cents!
Couldn't agree more~ Also Dasha told Tatiana that Alexander was refusing her in August~ I too believe he made the choice and stuck to it.
But ladies... He might not have had sex with her, but he DID agree to marry Dasha after all of this. To me, that was far more of a betrayal than if they were having sex. Not to mention that he spent an awful amount of time since August until Dasha died on the front line, and all the while they were in the fight of their lives to survive. I couldn't imagine sex being a huge priority during this time even if it were with Tatiana... Just my opinion.
No~ I agree 100% Mumbo~ But even the marrying wasn't a betryal in my mind~ Tatiana told him he had too~ They couldn't risk Dimitri's wrath~ They we're definatly in the proverbial state of rock and hard place~ Impossible love during communist Russia and War?~ How does one escape that?~ There was no where for them to go. I never have forgave Alexander, as I never felt a need too. In my opinion in the lives in which they were forced to live~ Surrounded by the chaos they had to endure~ They did all that they could~ Alex didn't think he could have Tatiana and Vice Versa~ Dasha was his way to always ensure he could be near Tatiana~ To protect her and just to look at her. Neither felt they had any other choice.
That time in the book was so hard for everyone... I find it hard to judge him to harshly because he was just trying to be close to Tatiana anyway he could. Think of how many times he brought them money & food and Tatiana would show her lover for him by making him food and serving him the better pieces or more food. *Sigh*
I agree with Shell and Leea. They were in a tough situation and handled it the only way they thought they could. Shura and Tatia felt they had to keep their love secret and so they tried hard to do it. Shura was the one who wanted to break up with Dasha numerous times, but Tatia asked him not to.
I loved when Tatiana was trying to convince Dasha that Alexander only loved her... When Tatia says to her Alexander brought you food, takes care of you etc....and Dasha says NO he did that for you!
Everything he did was for Tatiana even asking Dasha to marry him!
Exactly~ I got shivers reading your post Kelly.
yes its a powerful story and love for sure... He did anything for her... *sigh*
Milena wrote: "There is a lot of discussion on different forums about Alexander and Dasha's relationship after he met Tatiana. It is very fascinating to me that different people reading the same book interpreter ..."I totally agree with this assessment. I didn't see it any other way either.
Amy wrote: "Hi Shell! I don't disagree with you (and believe me, I don't like Dasha either) but Tatiana was only not being with Alexander out in the open. She was more than willing to lock lips with him in s..."OMG I totally agree with you on the whole she was okay with lip locking in private I had never really thought about that way before. Anyway's through out the course of the book I did find it annoying that Tatiana didn't tell Dasha the way she felt. Although I understand where she was coming from especially about living in communist Russia with that situation. Yet like Alexander said that she wasn't fighting for their love and that really BOTHERED me. It set a weak tone for her character, but also the tone for the rest of their story. Personally a lot of the time I always felt that even though she loved him other people's needs came after Alexander ( I know I'm going to cop a lot of argument from that statement). Especially in summer garden. anyho just my input :)
As much as I hate to say this, I'm pretty sure that Alexander was sleeping with Dasha after Luga and this is why: There is a part while Tania is in the hospital and it says, "In the middle of August, a few days before Tatiana was was to come home..." So, that would mean that she was in Luga at the end of July. Later Dasha says that they haven't had sex since August, meaning, that they had to have had sex IN August. They would have had to have done it after Luga then. Before Luga, Dasha and Alexander had broken up in July. At the end of August, Tatiana goes to see him at St. Isaac's. I think this is when he stops sleeping with Dasha.I agree though, that I had more trouble with him agreeing to marry Dasha. How the heck was he planning to get out of that one? :)
Yeah, it's been a year since I read it, but I remember Tatiana being on the roof with her leg in plaster and I'm pretty sure Alexander knocked off Dasha then. But I forgive him ;) But the marriage?! He could've been in a pickle there!
The Bronze Horseman
Books mentioned in this topic
Something Borrowed (other topics)Something Borrowed (other topics)
Most love it and love Alexander.
One of the ladies had a very hard time with the whole Dasha thing and just couldn't get past it.
How did you come to terms with it? Why and how did Tatiana forgive him?