Ulysses

[Steve]

Buck Mulligan's parody of liturgy at the start is like a summoning to the reader of a new religion...welcome to Joyce's Church, where it is not the Holy Spirit that is paid tribute to, but the Human Spirit.

[Ian]

And where Bloom is the Father, Stephen is the Son and Mulligan is the Spirit.

[Steve]

Phillip, as moderator, maybe you should make some subthreads for each of the chapters so this loose group reading gets a bit organized and people can drop comments where applicable.

[Phillip]

Agrimorfee wrote: "Phillip, as moderator, maybe you should make some subthreads for each of the chapters so this loose group reading gets a bit organized and people can drop comments where applicable."

anyone can do that - just look at the main page - near the Discussion Board title you will see a button called "new" - click on it and create your thread and then click on Ulysses as the folder and they will all fall under this category.

i'm on tour at the moment - i'm traveling with my laptop, but don't have a lot of time to post. please feel free to get that started!

[Phillip]

Ian wrote: "And where Bloom is the Father, Stephen is the Son and Mulligan is the Spirit."

i would say dublin is the spirit.

my master's thesis was called "the trinity aspect of james joyces' novels", which was designated thusly: the father (ulysses) the son (portrait of the artist) and the holy ghost (finnegans wake).

[Ed]

Phillip wrote: "Ian wrote: "And where Bloom is the Father, Stephen is the Son and Mulligan is the Spirit."

i would say dublin is the spirit.

my master's thesis was called "the trinity aspect of james joyces' nov..."

"In the name of the former and of the latter and of their holocaust. Allmen."

[Phillip]

Ed wrote: ""In the name of the former and of the latter and of their holocaust. Allmen." ..."

indudeibly!

[Ian]

I have just finished my review:

http://www.goodreads.com/story/show/2...

[Phillip]

Ian wrote: "I have just finished my review:

http://www.goodreads.com/story/show/2..."

an original approach to reviewing the book - what i like best about it is that you created your own ways of framing the narrative ... perhaps the review says more about you and the process of reviewing than it says about the book ... and that's fair enough because, as you have learned with this reading, Ulysses is a meta-reading experience - it changes the way you read - and it connects you to many readings and points of departures. in this way, the structure of your review is a lot like reading Ulysses - well done! each one of the sections offered a nice tidbit (joyce would have said epiphany) of "a-HA!".

[Ian]

Thanks, Phillip, I hope I didn't come across as too self-centred, but I was trying to treat my review and reading experience as a lower case odyssey or journey in its own right.
Your term "meta-reading" is a great way to describe my experience.
I notice that you have a private profile.
Are any of your writings on Joyce or Ulysses available online?

[Phillip]

i didn't perceive it as self-centered at all, more the work of an individual who is free of cliches - someone who has resisted over-indulging the annotated texts. you did a great job with it - it is possible i am one of those who have over-stuffed himself with critical writing on joyce - which is good in some ways, i have been exposed to a lot of ideas about his writing, but eventually i got tired of a lot of the critical texts on the irish genius - yours was creative and fun to read.

my writing is not available online - i wrote my graduate thesis on a typewriter, years before personal computers existed and i never converted it to the digital realm.

[Ian]

I wrote an essay on "Bird Imagery in The Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man" for my undergraduate degree, but have no idea where it is now.

I will keep an eye out for birds on my re-read.

[Ed]

Ian wrote: "Thanks, Phillip, I hope I didn't come across as too self-centred, but I was trying to treat my review and reading experience as a lower case odyssey or journey in its own right.
Your term "meta-rea..."

Who am I to criticize?

I first read Ulysses in high school on my own. Later I took a Joyce class and reread Ulysses and did essays on both the Sirens and Ithaca chapters (two of my favorites) in the style of the chapters themselves. Fortunately the professor was OK with that. Don't still have them, alas

[Phillip]

i tried to read ulysses during my first year of college, but on my own, not in a class. it was a frustrating experience, i wasn't ready for it, but i was intrigued; it was the first book that stopped me in my tracks, so to speak. so i spent several years reading about joyce and reading things that i knew were important for him. i had also dropped out of school in order to pursue my music.

about seven years later i went back and read all the books in the order they were composed and had a great experience. i went back to school to finish my degree in music at usc and met a joyce scholar while finishing my undergrad work, he inspired me and encouraged me to work on a master's degree in literature and focus on joyce.

after i graduated i composed music for each of the episodes, being mindful to use the structures and themes inherent in the writing. i continued to write music in this fashion for a few years, basing works on virginia woolf (mrs dalloway), kafka (the trial), and a few others, but eventually i abandoned this process - i felt i wanted to tell my own stories, not someone else's.

[Ian]

That's amazing, Phil.
I understand what you mean about telling your own stories, but Lou Reed had a crack at Edgar Allen Poe, so you were in good company.
Also, I recently bought a Patricia Barber album putting Ovid's "Metamorphoses" to music.

[Phillip]

it's a nice idea, and i'm glad i stayed the course for a while. i think at the time i was trying to see how to portray specific emotions or actions with music, which is, of course, like an act of translation. once i felt like i was able to do that, to really capture something specific that already existed, i felt enabled to do my own thing. this was back in 1988, 89 - and i revised the work a few times, performing it each year on bloomsday - after three or four years, i abandoned it.

i don't know of the lou reed - edgar allen poe project, no particia barber's work. in fact, i don't know about her at all, i'll look into it. i like the metamorphosis a lot - saw a wonderful production of it at berkeley rep a few years ago.

my work with the trial started out as a "let's turn a novel into music", but eventually i worked with a theater company on a production of kafka's novel. that was probably the most exciting for me, because the musicians learned the framework of the music, but were able to make changes and adjustments through improvisation every night - actors usually don't like that sort of thing - they want to know specifically what's going to happen, but this group was up for it.

[Ian]

Phillip wrote: "i don't know of the lou reed - edgar allen poe project"

The Lou Reed album is "The Raven" - there's a two disc version with lots of readings by other artists.

[Steve]

Ian wrote: "Phillip wrote: "i don't know of the lou reed - edgar allen poe project"

The Lou Reed album is "The Raven" - there's a two disc version with lots of readings by other artists."
It is a jumbled mess of an album, but a great mess. Highly recommended. Speaking of Joycean music influence, "The Sensual World" by Kate Bush directly alludes to Molly Bloom's Penelope section

http://www.google.com/m/url?client=ms...

[Ian]

I don't particularly like everything on the album, but it does contain three of his best songs ever: "Who Am I? [Tripitena's Song]", "Call on Me" and "Vanishing Act".

The version of Tripitena's Song is better than the one on the compilation album (NYC Man?).

[Phillip]

Agrimorfee wrote: "Highly recommended. Speaking of Joycean music influence, "The Sensual World" by Kate Bush directly alludes to Molly Bloom's Penelope section ..."

i remember when that came out, and i also remember being kind of peeved that she didn't acknowledge her (penelope) source. she quotes the text quite liberally, if i remember correctly.

[Carol]

In honor of James Joyce's birthday, a James Joyce rap by Frank Delaney (sort of)...

http://youtu.be/m5EeA_lbun8

[Ed]

Happy Joyce's birthday to you, Carol!
Haven't heard from you in a long time.

[Carol]

Hi Ed! I am reading the Ellmann Joyce biography, so I have not posted in awhile as it is a very long book. See you are reading alot of wonderful art literature!

[Ed]

Carol wrote: "Hi Ed! I am reading the Ellmann Joyce biography, so I have not posted in awhile as it is a very long book. See you are reading alot of wonderful art literature!"

I'm still a Joyce freak, though....

[Phillip]

Carol wrote: "In honor of James Joyce's birthday, a James Joyce rap by Frank Delaney (sort of)...

http://youtu.be/m5EeA_lbun8"

fantastic! thanks for posting, carol.

[Carol]

Bloomsday is just four days away! Here is an app that promises to lead you through Bloom's travels through Dublin, with photos as well as readings of the text by Frank Delaney. It will be available for the iPhone on Bloomsday!

http://joyceways.com/

[Salem]

thanks Carol for the tip.

[Ed]

The Santa Cruz Wakers are having a Bloomsday celebration at one of our member's houses.

Here's our blog:
http://finniganswakesantacruz.blogspo...

[Carol]

Thanks Ed! A nice blog - added to my favorites!

[Phillip]

nice work, folks ... too bad we can't arrange a simul-cast of ulysses readings here on the site.

[Carol]

A link to a very good article on Joyce and Ulysses in the latest New Yorker:
http://m.newyorker.com/arts/critics/a...

[Ed]

Send this link from the Wakers group:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/...

"You only have about a week or so to get around to it, so if you want
these, now would be the time."

[Ed]

Carol wrote: "A link to a very good article on Joyce and Ulysses in the latest New Yorker:
http://m.newyorker.com/arts/critics/a......"


That was a great article Thanks Carol.
I reposted the link on our blog.

[Phillip]

hmn, i was only able to read page 6 - that site page would not let me navigate the rest of the article.

arthur power ... there is a mister power in ulysses and in dubliners, if i'm not mistaken. it's always interesting to note the overlap of fiction and reality in joyce.

[Steve]

Phillip wrote: "hmn, i was only able to read page 6 - that site page would not let me navigate the rest of the article.

arthur power ... there is a mister power in ulysses and in dubliners, if i'm not mistaken. i..."

You have to hit Home and navigate through the arts section.

[Ed]

Phillip wrote: "hmn, i was only able to read page 6 - that site page would not let me navigate the rest of the article.

arthur power ... there is a mister power in ulysses and in dubliners, if i'm not mistaken. i..."

There's a little box where you enter the page number. So you don't have to do that, here's the URL for page 1:

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics...

[Phillip]

hey thanks, ed!

agrimorfee, yeah - i tried that, but it kept getting stuck on page 6 and wouldn't let me navigate away from that page.

[Bob]

I've read/listened to/picked through Ulysses several times. Currently in Scylla and Charybdis. Close reading, or as close as I can get. Trying to get to the bottom of Stephen's Theory. Yesterday I read an opinion that Scylla = Stephen's Aristotelian views of Hamlet, while Charybdis = the Platonic views of Stephen's audience in the library. I think this is wrong. I think Scylla = the multiheaded audience that is constantly sniping at and/or ignoring and/or dismissing Stephen and his ideas, and Charybdis = the whirling chaos introduced by Buck during his precipitous arrival, which begins to undo whatever success Stephen has begun to achieve. Stephen manages to sail between both and emerge exhausted, although he hasn't impressed anyone.

Thoughts, anyone?

[Phillip]

sounds right to me. it could be read that way, or, in a more general way of seeing that the dialectic approach is its own whirlpool/hydra. you can get lost in intellectual pursuits and led astray, which is what stephen is trying to do from time to time.

i say "led astray" and mean, without reference to stephen's "tactics" that to only serve the head and not other aspects of humanity is to lose your way. i think this is also operating in this episode.

[Bob]

Phillip wrote: ". . .you can get lost in intellectual pursuits and led astray, which is what stephen is trying to do from time to time."

Raises another question. Was this conference Stephen's grand plan for the day? I would think so. It would appear to me that he's making a deliberate effort to impress the literary bigwigs of Dublin with an argument that flies in the face of their more conventional understanding. But if you're going to embark on that kind of exercise, shouldn't you have your ducks in a line before you go into battle? Stephen presents his arguments in a muddled form which ultimately bogs down and more or less completely collapses. I don't necessarily blame the conventional hydra-like fuddy-duddies for losing interest in what he has to say, or how he has said it. I think you may have a point about the soul being at risk of being lost in an intellectual argument, but I think this particular venue and the subject matter argues against your point: Stephen's intellectual argument really must be intellectual and concise and clear to win over his skeptics.

[Phillip]

indeed he loses his way because of his pride (echoing back to ARABY), and the fact, as you point out, he is ill prepared. he hasn't become the great writer yet. he has great aspirations but really - if he was so concerned with this dialectic at the library, why wasn't he prepping for it earlier on the strand? he was lost in the hydra of i think therefore i am .. my suggestion was that he's lost in this pursuit - i didn't mean to imply that it is the fault of dialectic itself.

[Bob]

Well, "Araby" is about a young adolescent boy, and Scylla and Charybdis is about a young adult who is clearly possessed of a vast and intricate intellect. Stephen knows well what is at stake in this meeting at the library: a meeting which he must have sought. This is unlike the boy in "Araby" who is a harp vibrating (he knows not why) to the girl's words and gestures. And besides, although it's barely evident, he was anticipating this meeting in Proteus (and before, when he was considering the relationships between a son and mother in Nestor; he has the same concern in Portrait, for that matter) when he contemplated the African heresiarch Sabellius and the violence he did to the orthodox view of the Trinity; these father-son-father-ghost relationships of course being central to his Hamlet theory, and to Stephen's own life, and to Bloom's own life, and to Joyce's own life. I'm unsure, but I'm wondering whether, during his presentation to his seniors in the library, Stephen hasn't concluded that they are simply too conservative, too old school, to appreciate and/or understand him; that he is in the process of dismissing them as old geezers and, maybe, beginning to ponder a return from the insular to the continental.

But I'm curious about something else you said earlier: "you can get lost in intellectual pursuits and led astray, which is what stephen is trying to do from time to time." I don't follow you. Do you mean that Stephen is trying to get lost? Or do you mean that his Grand Theory of Everything leaves him befuddled, that he's still trying to figure it all out for himself, and that once he's accomplished that, or much of it, then he can begin to get about the business of becoming a real artist?

[Phillip]

basically, i think that trying to prove you are the smartest person at the table is a waste of time. stephen gets clowned at the library because he's unprepared. my assertion, which may have something or nothing to do with what joyce is trying to say, is that an artist needs more than intellect to succeed, and that stephen would be better served by getting down to work (as an artist) and leave the pursuit of conquering his intellectual rivalry behind. art has as much to do with feeling as it does with intellect - something that joyce proves without saying as much. i read critics of his work (one recent example: there was a recent blog post by coehlo who said joyce was "empty prose" - i don't agree, of course, and there have been others who have suggested as much - virginia woolf for one - in her early years wondered what was left after the literary fireworks of ulysses had fizzled) that say that joyce is all about intellect and literary devices and doesn't have much of value to say about the human condition ... which i think is ludicrous, but ... that's the point i'm trying to make, and clearly failing wildly at such an aim.

[Phillip]

i should also add that after spending a good 15 years studying the book, it has been more than that many years since i read it. in short - forgive my foggy memory banks.

[Bob]

Nothing to forgive! I deeply appreciate your thoughtful comments and am very wide-open to the insights of others. The only real and complete expert on Joyce was Joyce.

I agree that Stephen failed to be convincing for whatever reasons. And I agree that art -- visual or verbal or whatever -- can have a completeness unto itself in a way that the dialectic cannot. In that sense Stephen was working backwards, trying to argue his position piecemeal against a resisting audience instead of presenting it in toto, probably in written form, and then letting the critics grapple critically and incrementally with it, rather the way I'm doing here with respect to Joyce.

I did not bother reading the Coehlo piece once I understood his premise, which I understand to be simply wrong: Ulysses is eminently difficult to read the first time, but with each successive reading it reveals itself to be profoundly brilliant and interconnected and rewarding in the way that very few other novels have ever been. But there's no sense arguing the point with someone who hasn't yet penetrated into it deeply enough, because one only comes across as seeming prissy and pretentious. It's true that very many later writers, impressed with certain aspects of Joyce, have written pretentious stream-of-consciousness works that fail miserably in the way Coehlo suggests. (I don't even like the term SOC, but that's another matter.) I myself don't think it's ever been Joyce's style or all the tricks and puzzles that make Ulysses so incredible, but the way that so much amazing depth is revealed and concealed all at the same time and only extraordinary parallactical viewpoints engaged in by the reader successfully bring it into a proper focus.

[Phillip]

agreed on the term stream of consciousness - i tend to avoid it. it suggests the writer worked the way kerouac worked (i'm thinking of ON THE ROAD, in particular) ... there's nothing improvised about molly bloom's soliloquy, for example.

[Elaine]

Although there haven't been any post for the past five months, I am enjoying reading past comments. I'm thankful for your insight and thoughtful posts. I was reluctant to commit to reading Ulysses, knowing that I would have limited understanding of multilayered references, word play and meaning. It ain't easy. Regardless of the challenges, I am awestruck and enchanted with Ulysses. I succumbed to using references of varying sources which affords me some understanding of this masterpiece. The only complaint I have is with my own limitations. I can only imagine the thrill of reading Ulysses for those of you who actually understand all levels and depth of thought. Good news! ~ Joyce's writing is worthy, no matter what level of understand one has for his brilliance. Are you surprised? Of course, now I'm inspired and can only hope, someday, to read Odyssey, Shakespeare, Proust and Re-read A Portrait of the Artist. Your commentary is a refreshing and unique source for understanding Ulysses.

[Phillip]

my dear elaine - none of us had multi-layered experiences the first time around - i've read the book many times now - and like you, the book constantly humbles me - that's why i keep coming back to it. i'm so glad you're enjoying it!

[Bob]

Exactly: what Phillip said. And one more thing. Ulysses isn't for the intellectual eggheads: it's for all of us. The most democratic of all books. Of course a desire and a willingness to learn new things helps a great deal. . .

[Elaine]

Thank your Phillip and Bob for your reply. I hope you both see this post, addressed to you both. As I just wrote to another fellow Goodreads member, 'It's like marveling at the luscious full moon, drinking it it's spender even though I can't fly there.' I am disappointed that I can't find more help online. Sparks and Cliff Notes provides some help but the are inadequate!! Are there online sites that you could recommend? I need to get down the mountain to a REAL library in hopes that they might have Ulysses study guides. At present, when I'm stumped, I've chosen to keep moving along, which is better than stalling out completely. BTW, I was so happy to find and read The New Yorker article, The Puns and Detritus in James Joyce's 'Ulysses'. Egads! Shame on ol' Ireland for withholding their praise and recognition for Joyce's astounding accomplishment and for adding shame and shunning upon his tormented soul!