The Extra Cool Group! (of people Michael is experimenting on) discussion
Pertaining to the project
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Votes: How do you think about them?
Do votes you've received in the past, or assumptions about what readers on here value, affect your decisions about how to approach a book review?I wish I could say they didn't, that my reviews are art for art's sake alone and pure unadulterated self-expression, but that wouldn't be completely honest. I'm only human, and my little ego just eats up those votes when I get them. There aren't many other areas of my life where I get that kind of positive feedback simply for doing something I enjoy.
That said, I try (with varying degrees of success) not to allow my experience with votes to affect my process when I'm writing my reviews. It's harder for me to write a genuine review when I'm feeling self-conscious, and I'm also afraid of sounding like I'm trying too hard.
Also, I find that many factors go into earning votes on a review, most of which are not in the reviewer's control. One of the main predictors of getting votes, I think, is somehow managing to review a book that is, on the one hand, widely read, and on the other hand, hasn't yet accumulated enough creative reviews to compete with yours.
And you can't always predict what people will vote for. Humor helps, but people will also vote for a serious review if it offers good insights. Some of the reviews I felt proudest of got no votes, while other reviews that I felt more neutral about got more votes than I expected.
Who do you perceive as your audience when you write on goodreads?
My husband likes to tease me that I write reviews that no one ever reads. While that's an exaggeration, I don't know if my reviews get a lot of viewing beyond my goodreads friends. Like most things, I suspect having a wide audience on goodreads is a combination of talent and luck/opportunity (i.e., having a long friend list of people who vote on reviews, who may also have long friend lists of people who vote on reviews).
i don't really think much when i write reviews. i don't plan or draft or anything. i just sit down and bang 'em out. i figure my "audience" is just people i know already who read my reviews. sometimes they are addressed by name, and sometimes i just assume they are there. but frequently, when i am reading, i will think, "ah, yes - put that in the review, karen...)and sometimes after i write a review, i think to myself "that is sure to get you lots of votes!", and it pleases me. because this is the only standard i have by which to judge my awesomeness.
i have a bit of a fever today, so who knows if i am making any sense.
instead of drunk book reviews, we should write fever reviews...
I like votes from my friends. Every now and then someone I don't know will vote on a review I've written, and that's cool, too, I guess, but I almost forget there's a larger audience out there than my friends list.
oh, man - i would love to be the top-disagreed with goodreader
I actually agree, certainly with the second reason ("if you disagree, you should write a response"). Simply hearing that someone disagreed with a review I wrote wouldn't do much for me, but an intelligent rebuttal could lead to a great discussion.
I see your points, Mike. It's true that a Like vote doesn't give you a lot of information. I guess then, for me, it goes back to the first reason voiced by the romance ladies -- "it's not nice." Positive feedback in the form of a "Like" vote may not give you a lot of information but at least it feels good. Sure, it's a lot nicer if the person bothers to tell you what they liked about your review, but it can feel good even if they don't.
Negative feedback, on the other hand, especially from a total stranger, doesn't feel good. If the negative feedback comes in the form of an articulate comment, that can serve a purpose in that it stimulates interesting debate. It also ameliorates the experience of receiving negative feedback if it's clear that the person is not necessarily criticizing your intelligence or some other possibly sensitive issue but rather, simply disagreeing with a particular point you made.
It's true that half of these people are total strangers and that their feedback, positive or negative, shouldn't be taken personally, and I admire people with enough self-confidence to want negative feedback on their reviews even if it's unelaborated. As someone who gets enough critical feedback in other areas of life and wants this site to be fun and relaxing, I'm fine with vague positive feedback but only want negative feedback if it leads to discussion, a new understanding of the book, and/or improvement in my writing and critical thinking skills. A simple vote of "Dislike" or "Disagree" doesn't provide that for me.
Truth is, I read a lot of reviews I like but try to reserve my votes for the ones that really stand out in some way; otherwise I would be flooding my friends with updates. Also, sometimes I try not to vote for too many reviews of the same book; if I've already voted for three, I stop voting even if I read more reviews I like. I read plenty of reviews that I like but don't end up voting for.
When someone votes for my review, I get a sense that it has been read. If no one votes, I think, perhaps wrongly, that no one read what I wrote. So I focus on writing introductions that will hopefully get people to read what I wrote.As for my imagined audience... I suppose there's the world, but I tend to focus on the people that are in my network, particularly the ones that interact with what I've written, either by voting or commenting.
Ryan
You know what would be maybe more interesting? If you could rate reviews on a scale of 1 to 10 (or 1 to 4 stars or whatever), and the reviews ONLY showed what the average was, not what specific individuals rated it. The anonymity would (theoretically) encourage honesty but not lock the rater into those black-and-white like/dislike categories.
So, think about your review-writing process. Do votes you've received in the past, or assumptions about what readers on here value, affect your decisions about how to approach a book review?To a certain extent, yes. I don't start writing a review with some kind of conniving, "how can I maximize the number of votes I get?" attitude, but I do try to write reviews that people would be interested in reading. So, I say what I would have said about the book even if there were no voting and no one reading, but I try to say it in an interesting, or sometimes a creative, way. Rather than "this book was bad," say, I might try to come up with a more interesting way of describing why the book was bad.
I don't do this primarily to get votes, but more to write reviews that people actually read, to start conversations, to improve my writing skills, and to avoid the temptation to half-ass it. To a VERY limited extent, votes are a measure of how well I've achieved all of that.
Who do you perceive as your audience when you write on goodreads?
My friends, as well as strangers who are interested in the particular book, mostly.
It's a paradox: a good book review needs to be honest. But an honest book review could piss off all your friends, who would then call it a bad book review. What's more important: honesty or entertainment?I say this having dissed Karen's favorite book -- and then for fifteen minutes or so she refused to have anything to do with me! This is the same pressure that's felt by all critics who are members of the community they critique. If you don't know who you're complaining about, it's fun as hell to write about how their book sucks. If you do know them, it's instantly awkward and difficult.
I console myself with the private belief that my GR reviews are so breathtakingly honest and cuttingly insightful that everyone hates them, and that's why I don't get more votes.
Mike wrote: "Good idea. Although, I'm pretty certain some reviewer, somewhere, would think that voting should require a comment, because it's more helpful and nice."Requiring comments won't work. People will just say "Asdf!"
I think votes are fun because sometimes I really love a review, but I don't have anything productive to say about it. It's a nice way to give encouragement without having to come up with specific feedback. Comments are more fun, though. And I do love haters.I think a lot of people who use the website less frequently don't get that there is a like button. That kind of freaks me out. I have some real life friends who are on here and every once in a while, I'll start to tell them a story and they'll say they read it already in a review. But I didn't have any warning because I didn't get that little "like" email. I like to be prepared. Also, I've had people send me a private message that just said they liked my review instead of hitting the button. Sometimes, there's a good reason, but other times it's weird.
At some point, Richard made the point that GR probably doesn't tell us how many people actually view the pages of our reviews because they keep the info for advertising. Youtube does show that, though, right?
Anyway, I don't think that I write based on votes, though. I usually write with someone in my head that I'm writing to. Sometimes, it's past or future me. I think, like people have been saying, that voting probably depends more on some kind of unpredictable combination of the popularity of the book with the catchiness or incendiary nature of the review.
I already answered this on another thread, but I'll repeat here. My perceived audience is:1.) other people who have already read the book
2.) myself in the future (as a way of remembering what I've read)
3.) (not as often) someone who hasn't read the book but would like to get a general feel of whether they like it
I always assume no one is reading. What Jimmy said. Another version of me.
Nope. Votes don't affect my reviews. I find it really difficult to tell what makes some of my reviews get more votes than others (not that any of them get any large number of votes). And I actually don't pay much attention to the votes they get. Caris had to show me a little while ago how you can even tell which of your reviews got votes. Whenever I feel like I am writing too much for an audience I stop writing reviews for a short time. I know, I'm weird.
I like to read funny reviews so if my review is funny, I assume it will entertain a reader. The problem is I can't write funny reviews, and I don't expect too many readers.Actually, writing reviews is not really a fun thing to do. It's hard work, I have to think, mostly someone else has already devised a brilliant angle, found a cool pic, researched the topic to death, couched the review in stunning prose...need I go on? The best I can hope is to add a half-decent comment in the thread or a 'I liked your review.' Not exactly riveting.
Occasionally I'll find a book that just screams messages and I feel burdened to tell the whole world about it. The review is very unlikely to be inspiring, and will make people, if they see it, laugh in all the wrong places.
Votes used to influence me, but I got sick of it - I liked writing reviews, but hated the reasons for which I was writing them. So I went to the opposite extreme, where for a few months I just wrote down some thoughts about the books I'd read, without attempting any artistry. These rarely attracted any votes or comments, and as a result, no discussion. Which I really miss! Alas, I think it's rarely possible to start any interesting conversation without keeping votes in mind. (There are exceptions: someone once wrote one thoughtless line about A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Genius that spawned something like 500 comments of interesting discussion.)
Aww, thanks, Elizabeth. I can tell I'm getting gradually drawn back into goodreads, and into writing proper reviews again, provided I can find some kind of balance that will keep me happy. I just don't want the reviewing to be more important than the experience of reading the book, and I found it hard not to get sucked into that when I was involved with such an active and interesting community here.
Mod
I also hope to inspire some kind of discussion and/or get mad votes, but working through my own thoughts about the book is what makes me enjoy the reviewing process. It's easier for me to think through writing, which is one of the reasons I'm a lot funnier online than IRL. But, I'm still funnier than Caris.
Michael wrote: "Reviewing has helped me to think about and react to the books I read a lot more than I used to."Yes, me too, definitely. I also find that I remember books better if I've written a review of them - that critical thinking process helps them stick in my brain long-term. And GR reviews are a good way to keep my writing skills from getting too rusty.
That's why I am a little ambivalent about voting in general - those different motivations between writing for personal reasons, and writing for an audience in the pursuit of popularity. It can be hard to strike a balance. And even though I don't consciously write to get votes, and doing so seems crass, there's this Freudian vote-whore beast in my subconscious that influences my reviewing process anyway.
In the end I try to embrace it, because it's there whether I like it or not.
Also, Freudian Vote-Whore Beast is the name of my new band.
I miss Choupette's reviews as well.The "dislike" button issue is a hardy perennial over on the feedback thread and gets slapped down every time. Rightly so, IMO. I don't crochet either, but I do appreciate the civility on goodreads, relative to other social websites. If I need a dose of rampant drive-by incivility, there's always Amazon. The rationalization that one might dole out little morsels of hostility to other site members as a way of improving the estimate of how many people read their review almost manages to be amusing. Of course there's an asymmetry of obligation - suppose you worked for someone whose only feedback was "that's great" or "that sucks". The first requires no further elaboration; only the most clueless of bosses could think that the second is helpful, absent further explanation.
With respect to Michael's initial question, I don't have a particular image of potential readers of my reviews. A common pattern is that a review generates some initial comments from friends or followers (who presumably see it whiz by in their update feeds). Later votes crop up somewhat randomly, I suspect because many people read reviews after they finish a book. I don't think I structure reviews specifically to get votes (because if there's a formula, I sure don't know what it is), but I am conscious of an obligation to try to hold a reader's interest. There are specific aspects that I typically try to address - these are different for fiction and non-fiction, but the details may go beyond what Michael is interested in.
(on edit) Aerin's comment 21 is actually a pretty accurate (and much more articulate) summary of my approach to reviewing.
Michael wrote: "So, think about your review-writing process. Do votes you've received in the past, or assumptions about what readers on here value, affect your decisions about how to approach a book review?"Yes. I've gotten very good feedback on a few of my reviews from GR "friends," and I'm likely to try to emulate what they liked about them. (Features like "hilarious drunkenness" and "failure to make sense" go over huge.)
"Who do you perceive as your audience when you write on goodreads?"
Those GR friends, none of whom I've met in real life. Real-life friends are mildly important - GR is hooked to my FB account - but less so because all my real friends are illiterate. The opinions of strangers are irrelevant to me.
Mod
I sure would've. Look at how conflicted our motives become once the like button becomes a factor in this whole mess! (But don't stop voting for my reviews! I love the like button, I really do!)
I see what you mean about there being no fundamental difference between what a "like" button or "disagree" button adds to the conversation. I think the meaning is a bit different: I disagree with a lot of reviews I like, so I might click both for some reviews. That said, depending on how you use the site, "agree" and "disagree" could be just as valuable as "like." And, I think "disagree" is useful. I don't think "dislike" would be helpful, though.
I can see two scenarios if there was a "dislike" button:1) A lot of people would use it out of spite - this would cause drama.
2) A lot of people would use it without spite, but the person who wrote the "disliked" review would take it poorly - this would cause drama.
The "disagree" button, while a better option in my opinion, would still be vulnerable to both of the above. And for me personally, because I don't use the "like" button to always mean "I agree", it too seems unnecessary.
If they switched the options over to "I agree" vs. "I disagree", I'd have yet more trouble - reviews aren't things I typically agree or disagree with. If it's a book I haven't read, for instance, or if it's a personal review that doesn't postulate any argument. I can admire the piece of writing, it can make me laugh, it can be really inventive or eloquent - but that doesn't mean I agree with it. I just like it.
Aerin, I agree completely (if there were a "like" button after your post, I would click it!). I agree that a "dislike" button invites gratuitous spite and negativity. Although there are some trolls on goodreads, it's harder to be a troll if it necessitates the effort of writing a comment as opposed to simply clicking a button. And I agree that "disagree" could be used the same way, and that liking reviews often has nothing to do with whether or not you agree with them.
1. on the like/dislike issue, i think a better idea would be amazon's this was helpful vs. this was not helpful it isn't as mean. 2. I assume no one is reading my reviews, I generally write them to make myself laugh. also I process in writing, so if I don't write something down I won't remember anything about the book and I will have to go ask greg what it was about.
3. I do really like when authors email me and thank me for reviews/like my reviews, although I've had some weird occurances where the review is kind of mean but they like it anyway. I don't complain.
They have a dislike button on amazon. I've never clicked on it. I don't ice helpful usually, though (or write reviews there).
Sheesh... I'm coming into this group way too late. Everybody's already given every brilliant answer possible to this question.I spend way, WAY too much time writing reviews. Reviews few/nobody read. So, I write them more for myself than anybody else... although I too love it when they're liked.
Reviews are a creative outlet that help me think through issues in the books.
I love reviews that go off-topic, but stick to the heart of the book. I click the "like" button if I like the review, or if I like the amount of work someone put into the review.
Am I a vote whore? Yes. But I'm not a very good one.
Sheesh... I'm coming into this group way too late. Everybody's already given every brilliant answer possible to this question.I spend way, WAY too much time writing reviews. Reviews few/nobody read. So, I write them more for myself than anybody else... although I too love it when they're liked.
Reviews are a creative outlet that help me think through issues in the books.
I love reviews that go off-topic, but stick to the heart of the book. I click the "like" button if I like the review, or if I like the amount of work someone put into the review.
Am I a vote whore? Yes. But I'm not a very good one.
Mod
Nope, you've already given some good, thoughtful responses. Even if some ideas are similar to what other people have said, I think that everyone (who wanders into this group) voicing their thoughts will give a better sense of what MOST people do, what SOME people do, and what ONLY THE PSYCHOS do. I won't say where you fall right now...
I would bet that if we're all psychos on here that would make us normal, right?
Mod
I only write reviews for Ceridwen to read. If she likes them, then I consider them a success. Everyone else is icing.
Philip wrote: "I would bet that if we're all psychos on here that would make us normal, right?"Yes, I'd tend to regard one of my selves as a normal psycho. The other would fall into the category of not normal. We haven't decided about the rest.
Richard wrote: "I only write reviews for Ceridwen to read. If she likes them, then I consider them a success. Everyone else is icing."that's sweet
Mod
And you call yourself a vote whore.
By 'votes', do you mean the 'liked this' button? If so, that's not in my mind at all. I try to describe the tone, main ideas and how I felt about the book, without giving away any spoilers. Basically, I write the reviews that I would like to read, and if it helps anyone make a happy decision about whether to pick up a book or not, that's great.
I write the reviews that I would like to read."This is a very good idea.
(I wish the reviews that I would like to read would also be the reviews that everyone else would like to read.)
i think they should do away with the "like" process completelyLike i think like its been overused for like, a billion years now. its like a simile for like likelikelike
like like like like like...
ARGGGGGHH!!!!
David wrote: "The "dislike" button issue is a hardy perennial over on the feedback thread and gets slapped down every time. Rightly so, IMO. I don't crochet either, but I do appreciate the civility on goodreads, relative to other social websites. If I need a dose of rampant drive-by incivility, there's always Amazon."I so agree. I hate the rudeness on Amazon, and the "dislike" button is clicked for any number of reasons there, most not having anything to do with the way the review is written or how informative it is.
And like someone else mentioned, I get enough criticism out there in the real world. If you hate my review, just pass it on by and mutter under your breath. If you like it, by all means let me know.
No. I write reviews to help me think about a book that is particularly interesting to me. I don't notice whether somebody liked it or not.
Jason wrote: "i think they should do away with the "like" process completelyLike i think like its been overused for like, a billion years now. its like a simile for like likelikelike
like like like like like...."
Ha! It really is enough to drive you mad. (I really liked your response, by the way).
Strongly agree, mildly agree, strongly disagree. None of the above.
Mod
Jason wrote: "like likelikelikelike like like like like...."
If you say it fast enough, it sounds
sometimes I don't read reviews I just open them and like them and move on, this is common when I think a review will be shorter than it is, or if I don't know the person who wrote the review but like 6 people I know liked it.
Who do you perceive as your audience when you write on goodreads?