The Custom of the Country by Edith Wharton

[Jamie]

This is for the November/December group read discussion of The Custom of the Country by Edith Wharton.

[Gitte]

I'm about half way through and I really like this one. At the beginning, I thought it had many similarities to An American Tragedy, as both protagonists are so eager to climb the social ladder.

I think Edith Wharton gives a great depiction of New York's upper class and I really like her critique on gender roles and the separate spheres for men and women.

I'm looking forward to hear everyone's opinion on the protagonist, Undine Spragg!

[Jamie]

I think many books during this time period are heavily influenced by class and have characters trying to climb the social ladder. Wharton's novels give an accurate description of upper class society and the expectation of maintaining one's propriety. Wharton herself was a member of New York's elite and many disagreed with how she portrayed her class. Even though there is still division of the classes I think it is much better than it used to be.

[Jamie]

I am going to start reading tonight so hopefully I will be able to start discussing on Monday! So what do you guys think of the beginning part of the book?

[Gitte]

I certainly gives you a clear image of the protagonist right away!

[Diane]

I just started last night and am intrigued by the hints of the "real" reason they moved to New York.

[Jamie]

Me too!

[Jamie]

I wonder why Undine was engaged and married to Ralph Marvell so quickly when she thought his family was not as high in society as she originally thought. She seemed to want to be in the sphere of the Van Degen's, not just related through family. What do you guys think?

[Jamie]

What do you think about Charles Bowen's comment (pg. 131 chapter 15) about it being against the custom of the country for a husband to discuss business with his wife and how this practice has caused Ralph and Undine to have the relationship they have? Do you agree and/or have other reasons for their relationship problems.

[Jamie]

To my question, I do think the way Undine's society is has influenced her to be the way she is but her parents, herself, and Ralph all have a part in the blame. They should be harder on her and let her experience disappointment and she can only answer for herself in the end.

I am at the part where Undine has gone to Europe without her husband. I am wondering if she will go home (I am guessing so) and what happens with Peter (I am guessing no good)

I feel like Undine reminds me of a combination of Becky Sharp in Vanity Fair and Lily Bart in The House of Mirth

[[deleted user]]

Jamie wrote: "To my question, I do think the way Undine's society is has influenced her to be the way she is but her parents, herself, and Ralph all have a part in the blame. They should be harder on her and let..."

Jamie, I just started the book today. I'm on chapter VIII. I will re-join the discussion once I catch you as I guess all of you are ahead on the plot.. I just saw your last comment and I had to say that I was thinking of Becky Sharp while reading!

[Gitte]

Jamie wrote: "To my question, I do think the way Undine's society is has influenced her to be the way she is but her parents, herself, and Ralph all have a part in the blame. They should be harder on her and let..."

She's a very unlikeable character! I agree that part of it is probably due to her parents/society as they had such separate spheres for men and women that women knew nothing of finances whatsoever. And on top of that, she's just such a manipulating spoiled brat! And she has a very cruel side, as we shall see later.

One of the sad things is that there are still women out there who has absolutely no financial responsibility.

[Jamie]

Take your time Antia, I am reading very slowly.

I agree with you Gitte. Being given everything you want is not going to make you sympathetic towards financial issues and can influence your mentality very negatively. I am waiting to see how cruel Undine can truly be.

[Diane]

Antía wrote: "Jamie wrote: "To my question, I do think the way Undine's society is has influenced her to be the way she is but her parents, herself, and Ralph all have a part in the blame. They should be harder ..."
I have to say that I don't think Becky Sharp and Undine are alike. Becky was smart where Undine is quite obtuse. Becky had to scrabble to survive from childhood on, not that I am defending or admire her, but she definitely intuited society and quality and certainly understood poverty. Undine parents not only spoiled her but allowed, even encouraged her to dictate their lifestyle. She grew up expecting them, and later poor Ralph, to provide for her.

[Diane]

Jamie wrote: "I wonder why Undine was engaged and married to Ralph Marvell so quickly when she thought his family was not as high in society as she originally thought. She seemed to want to be in the sphere of t..."
She stepped up the marriage immediately after meeting with Elmer Moffatt. I think she did so in the hope that she would be married before her secret got out. I don't know why she was engaged to Ralph in the first place, though, since he didn't have the money she thought her due. Perhaps a bit of competiveness with Mrs. Van Degen?. Combine that with Mrs. Heeny tellng her that the Marvels and Dagonets were among the first families in society.

[Diane]

Diane wrote: "Antía wrote: "Jamie wrote: "To my question, I do think the way Undine's society is has influenced her to be the way she is but her parents, herself, and Ralph all have a part in the blame. They sho..."
On second thought, you're right about Becky and Odine being similar. Neither were capable of really caring for anyone but themselves.

[Jamie]

I just think there are a few similarities. They definitely have many differences in there up bringing.

[Jamie]

So what are your thoughts/comments of the last part of the book?

[Gitte]

I keep thinking about her Undine's son. What kind of a man will he grow up to be? Will he end up like Undine and her new husband (I forget his name) or has he been influenced enough by his father to be a kind person?

[Diane]

Gitte wrote: "I keep thinking about her Undine's son. What kind of a man will he grow up to be? Will he end up like Undine and her new husband (I forget his name) or has he been influenced enough by his father t..."
I think he will turn out to be a fine fellow. His French step-father also had a good influence on him and he was troubled that his mother told lies about "his dear French father". He isn't interested in things but wants to know about people. Mrs. Heeny was telling him about his forgotten real father and I think he will seek out his dad's family when he gets old enough.
Yes, I am confident that he will be fine.

[Gitte]

Diane wrote: "Gitte wrote: "I keep thinking about her Undine's son. What kind of a man will he grow up to be? Will he end up like Undine and her new husband (I forget his name) or has he been influenced enough b..."

I agree... as long as he isn't too much like his father was and falls for a woman resembling his mother!

I'm wondering what Wharton tried telling us be 'killing' his father? Did she believe that there wasn't any room for this kind of person in a cruel, selfish and superficial world? Even if he has a lovely family to support him?

[Diane]

Interesting idea about the world beig too cruel for Ralph and that may have been her message. Symbolism has a tendency to be over my head unless someone points it out to me.
My take on his suicide had been that he was ashamed at losing the money his family and friends gave him (or so he believed) and dispair at losing his son and that caused him to end his life. I was rather upset that eventually Undine got control of the money. I would rather it had been lost than she get it.

[Jamie]

I agree that Paul will grow into a good person or at least no obsessed over material things. I could just picture a sequel where he gives up Moffatt's business in place of the life of a writer leaving widowed Undine not only continually wishing for more, because of her lack of being able to truly love, but poor (not rich at least) like her parents were because they followed her demands.

[Gitte]

I'm convinced that he'll grow up to be a good person like his father, but I am worried how he'll be able to cope and if he'll fall in love with a woman resembling his mother - like his father did.

Yes, it would be a great sequel!