Outlander Series discussion
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Is this a clue to the ghost?
Wasn't that part a dream that Claire was having?
Yeah, it was... but I think it was supposed to be a bit prophetic too. Remember, Bree painted those miniatures.
I think I read the books so fast that I missed some things. I need to go back and reread them when I get past these deadlines.
There was also that letter at the end of Drums of Autumn, it was from Frank to Roger, and he mentions the ghost again.
For what it's worth, I think Frank did finally believe Claire and that he intimated that perhaps he did see Jamie, but just couldn't remember where or when. Just a small correction:) The letter was actually addressed to Roger's adoptive father,the Reverend. I just re-read the letter part of DOA and it was really touching that Frank really did love Claire, but was terribly jealous of Jamie.
My perception of Frank has grown in spades since I've started reading the CompuServ forum and thinking of him as more than a one-dimensional character (a cheater, basically). For not having a huge role in the books I think he's going to have a big impact when this series starts to wrap up.
I actually really like Frank, and I think that we got a real insite into how he felt in that letter he wrote to the Reverend. He was a cheater, but he was also a good man. He took care of Bree as though she was his own and he tried to give them a family. He was flawed, but that's what makes a good character. He cheated in in bed, Claire was in love with someone else in her heart.
I liked Frank too. I even teared up when Clair talks about when she found out about his accident while she was at work.
It seems like I remember reading somewhere that DG is a fan of happy endings in books and that this series will end happily......So, maybe they won't be separated again and will die together in their sleep. I kind of envision an ending like The Notebook......
Christina wrote: "It seems like I remember reading somewhere that DG is a fan of happy endings in books and that this series will end happily......So, maybe they won't be separated again and will die together in the..."On her site DG says:"I think the Outlander books will end in 1800. If this tells you anything, more power to you. {g} And yes, the last book will have a happy ending, though I confidently expect it to leave the readers in floods of tears, anyway."
That could mean a lot of things. Maybe they die together in their sleep. Or Jamie dies 1st and his spirit waits for Claire for 300 years and then they exist together forever. I mean, think about it, in 1800 Jamie would be what, 80 or so. Claire would be even older, which would mean they lived together for 30+ years, and even if we see one of them dying, it could be considered a happy ending. As for me, I would prefer neither of them dies in the final book, but I think, because of J's ghost, that they will, at least Jamie.
I think so too. That one of them will die first, and that it'll be Jamie.
Doesn't Jamie make some reference in EITB about not being able to live much longer after Claire if he were to lose her first? I faintly recall a beautiful dialogue between the two of them about that...or am I crazy?Gosh, it's time for a read over!
Jen wrote: "Doesn't Jamie make some reference in EITB about not being able to live much longer after Claire if he were to lose her first? I faintly recall a beautiful dialogue between the two of them about tha..." Hi Jen, yes I believe Jamie had said something to that effect about if losing Claire again he didn't think he could go through it again or something. I know I have to do some re reading myself. There are somethings I forget.I love what Roger says to Bree in EITB about 'Wherever Jamie and Claire are,they are home,because they are together.' I thought that was beautiful.
I can tell you that if Jamie dies in latest book, I will cry my heart out. I would cry for Claire too, but not as I would for Jamie.
I think she'll give us a good ending. I'm not sure what I would even call a good ending, but as long as they're together, I suppose. I don't want to see either of them die.
I'm going to sob like a baby if either of them dies. If Claire dies first I'm giong to crumble into pieces reading Jamie's reaction! And if Jamie goes first I'm going to sob my heart out because the love of my life will be gone!I'm torn between whether I want to read the dying or not. On one hand I dread them dying because it's so final. On the other hand if she doesn't give the series complete closure I'll always feel like there's more story she's not telling, because we've pretty much read their entire lives together.
Wendy F wrote: "I'm going to sob like a baby if either of them dies. If Claire dies first I'm giong to crumble into pieces reading Jamie's reaction! And if Jamie goes first I'm going to sob my heart out because ..."Good point, Wendy. We've witnessed their lives together. If we don't see the end, we'll wonder what adventures we missed, but oh I don't want to see them die.
Wendy:I'm with you. Though I'd hate to see either one of them die. I think if she ended the book with all of their family with them, that would be okay. Then we can all use our imaginations as to what happens to each and everyone of them. But I don't think I could handle either of them dying. I'm not even sure I could handle any of the characters that we come to know so well dying.
Them dying will kill me. Still, even if they're all together and she ends it there I think I'll still think about what other adventures they're having that I'm not reading. Plus, I feel like if it ends like that she just picked a place to end it because there have been times they've all been together before.I don't know, either way I'll be heartbroken or unsatisfied, lmao. I'm a bad fan!
Remember that DG is also a scientist and since death is an inevitable part of the cycle of life, I would be incredibly surprised if she didn't include the end of Jamie and Claire's lives. Plus, in order for the ghost to be explained Jamie has to die I would think. As sad as it will be to read about him (and possibly Claire) dying, I wouldn't feel closure any other way.
That's exactly why I think she'll write it. Not the scientist thing, because I didn't even think of that. It's a great point. I think she'll show it because she's promised that the ghost will be explained in the end.
Here's a thought -- maybe Jamie can "travel" as well, but not the same way that Claire does and he's not telling anyone. And when he does travel, he's more of a spirit than a person, after all he sees the grandkids in the future. Who's to say he's not there, in spirit?I'm just thinking off the cuff here. I really don't want to see either of them die.
Is this way far fetched or what?? :)
I'm with all of y'all. It will not be able to take Jamie losing Claire if she dies first. It will destroy him and I will bawl my eyes out b/c of his reaction. He will rip my guts out. I also will NOT be able to take Jamie dying. I won't be able to accept him being "gone." It's so final. Gosh, I have to stop thinking about it. Could be their story never truly ends due to the fact that time is a great circle. It's not linear. I'd like a Somewhere in Time ending where they end up together in the afterlife. :)
Yes, Teresita, I LOVE what Roger said about them! So, beautiful.
Wendy F wrote: "I'm going to sob like a baby if either of them dies. If Claire dies first I'm giong to crumble into pieces reading Jamie's reaction! And if Jamie goes first I'm going to sob my heart out because ..."Wendy F wrote: "I'm going to sob like a baby if either of them dies. If Claire dies first I'm giong to crumble into pieces reading Jamie's reaction! And if Jamie goes first I'm going to sob my heart out because ..." Hi Wendy, I agree with that i will cry when either or both Jamie and Claire die because just thinking of Jamie's reaction if Claire goes first would tear my heart out. And Jamie dying first is like you said 'the love of my life will be gone'. But however it ends, i am sure it will be worth reading because DG always comes through. This waiting is too much for me. I can't wait til book 8 is released.
Has she said this is the last? I know we've been bouncing that around because originally it was supposed to only be about 5 books. Is she saying 1 more, or 2 more?
I think all we know is that the stories will end around the year 1800.
Wendy F wrote: "Has she said this is the last? I know we've been bouncing that around because originally it was supposed to only be about 5 books. Is she saying 1 more, or 2 more?" I don't know if This next book is the last or not. that is a good question. In a way I hope it is, because this waiting 3 years is torture fo me.
The last thing that I read that she said it would probably end in a total of 9 books and make it a triple trilogy but of course this was a couple of years ago so she has plenty of time to change her mind.
Wendy F wrote: "Thats what I want too! They both wanted to duke it out for her love!I bet he couldn't help thinking about how that ghost looked an awful lot like his daughter."
I actually wonder whether Frank even remembered about that "ghost".
@Leah: It is fascinating! DIA ch10 pg 150 Claire dreamed of Frank (after meeting Alex Randall at Versaille). Frank was teaching a class at London University and had borrowed a few "objects of vertu" from the British Museum that included miniatures. One of Jamie and one of Claire. Frank knew it looked just like Claire. These have to be the ones Bree painted!
I wondered about that during my reread of Dragonfly in Amber. If those were Bree's paintings, which I thought that they might be, why would 1) they be in the British Museum and 2) Frank be using them in his lectures? If anything, wouldn't the paintings have been in some American museum since Bree would have painted them in the Colonies? Also, where were these paintings that they managed to survive? Surely not in Fraser's Ridge so maybe sent to Lallybroch?
@Wendy: And I just felt something ominous that got my spidey-senses tinging when Jamie insisted on keeping something because his dream made him feel like eventually Claire would go back.
Where was this? I don't remember it. It's making me feel sad now. I also thought that Claire would die in the past because of her saying that she didn't think she could survive another trip through the stones.
Just had a thought, unless you are speaking of Jamie wanting to keep a stone for Claire's return trip?
I don't remember saying that... oh wait, you're talking about the stone?I don't think would remember the ghost unless it was mentioned. I think both Claire and Frank put the ghost out of their mind the night it happened and haven't looked back. We just focus on it because we know that it was important.
I've always thought the "ghost" was just one of Jamie's dreams... although, no one ever said they saw Jamie when he "saw" them - not even Jem or Mandy. But when Jamie married Leoghaire, Jenny saw Claire's "fetch", which is almost the same as Frank seeing Jamie, isn't it?I didn't consider that Claire might go back again... perhaps that would be a fitting ending? Didn't Jamie make Claire promise that if he died in the Revolutionary War that she would go back to Bree, Roger, and the kids? Jenny would always have a place with Marsali and the kids, so she'd be looked after. And I'd think that being around William would be too hard for Claire, if Jamie were gone.
Hmmm... lots to think about!
But going from 1777-ish to 1800 in one book? Seems like too many years to cover in just one more book. Then again, Voyager covered 20 years, so... who knows?
She said that she doesn't think this is the last book. I've heard the idea that the ghost was Jamie's dream. Except that Jenny saw Claire because it was a premonition, a telling that no matter how she tried to help him move on he would always belong to Claire. This was different than the ghost. Frank was just walking and saw someone looking longingly and amused up at Claire's window. It just had a completely different feel.
I think that Jamie is going to die first, and his spirit was looking for Claires. (As much as I hate to think about it.)
Okay, as I was reading Fiery Cross in the wee hours of the morning today, I had this thought... When Jamie is not doing so well after the snake bite, and Claire figures out the morning after just why he wanted to be brought up to bed the night before, what if he maybe had his own "five minutes in heaven/limbo/spirit world" during the night, as he was pretty close and talks to her about the 'choice'? The big parallel for me was that before Jamie fell asleep that night, she was brushing out her hair -- which could explain his expression at looking up at her doing the same when Frank sees his ghost?
After reading all of your other fascinating ideas, I am not quite so sure any more about it (and also my brain is a bit more awake, for one…) so I guess it is the waiting game now. Well, the reading game for me too, as I have to finish up FC , ABOSAA and Echo too in order to see what other clues she may have given us.
Oh my, it will be emotional reading indeed when all finally is explained... and I don't think DG will let us off the hook and let Jamie and Claire die peacefully together in their sleep when they are both nice and old in the final book :)
I'm coming in late here, but I do know that Frank figured out the relationship of Claire and Jamie. Remember that Frank bought the tombstone (or place marker) for Jamie that Claire found? He knew she'd go back looking for him and wanted to give her a place to grieve (or so I believe).
Lydia wrote: "I thought the same thing when I read it!"I don't think so, if you've read most of the book, characters like Briana come to Jamie like she was there even though she's in the future and they never met. So is it a ghost or just a spirit that exists within them (Claire, Briana) wherever they are past, present, future they are one within him, and he within them... It's much nicer than thinking him dead.
Pam wrote: "I'm coming in late here, but I do know that Frank figured out the relationship of Claire and Jamie. Remember that Frank bought the tombstone (or place marker) for Jamie that Claire found? He knew s..."She told Frank about Jamie when she came back pregnant, at 1st he didn't believe her, but then he did. I don't remember Frank buying tombstone though what book was that in? I thought that was Roger (Briana's husband?) but perhaps I'm wrong.
Brizo wrote: "Pam wrote: "I'm coming in late here, but I do know that Frank figured out the relationship of Claire and Jamie. Remember that Frank bought the tombstone (or place marker) for Jamie that Claire foun..."Roger produced the letter for Jamie in which Frank asked the Rev to place the headstone.
I see the headstone as Franks way of almost 'letting her go'. Giving her enough of a shock to start her looking into the past and find out as he did (at least I think there is no way a historian would let her story drop with out thoroughly researching it first) that Jamie actually survived Culloden. He couldn't/wouldn't just tell her when he first found out because he wanted both her and Bree, and couldn't be sure if Claire would take Bree or be stuck in the impossible choice. I think he Aldo would have seen both of them in the past, which is why he 'trained' Bree, but still tried to take he when he left to keep her in the present.
No, it was Frank, not Roger. I honestly don't think Frank ever believed that Claire went through the stones - he just put the tombstone in as a joke.
Lynn wrote: "No, it was Frank, not Roger. I honestly don't think Frank ever believed that Claire went through the stones - he just put the tombstone in as a joke."No way, not possible! Frank def knew IMO.
Did you guys read MOBY yet?
Quote from Frank Randall - I could "almost" believe her in a letter to Rev. Wakefield:You know all the rubbish Claire talked when she came back. I did all I could to get it out of her head, but she wouldn’t be budged; God, she is a stubborn woman!
You’ll not credit this, perhaps, but when I came last to visit you, I hired a car and went to that damned hill—to Craigh na Dun. I told you about the witches dancing in the circle, just before Claire disappeared. With that eerie sight in mind, standing there in the early light among those stones—I could almost believe her. I touched one. Nothing happened, of course.
Did you guys read Moby yet? LOLAll of this is answered in Moby.
Wendy F wrote: "Did you guys read Moby yet? LOLAll of this is answered in Moby."
No MOBY yet... Am waiting to see the series before I reread the books..
Wendy F wrote: "Did you guys read Moby yet? LOLAll of this is answered in Moby."
I'm reading it now but haven't gotten to that part yet..
Hi all. I am only half through DoA in the series. I have been reading all books in e-pub format. I have gone back and checked the scene where Frank sees the ghost and Claire combed her hair by electric light and used L'Heure Blue to get it under control as Frank used up the water. When she was satisfied at how her hair was the lightening and thunder sounded and the lights went out. She placed the first candle in a holder by the light of the next round of lightening then lit them all around the room and fliped the electric light switch to off for romance sake. The candles were only burned about a half-inch when Frank blew into the room. Everyone seems to think she combed her hair by candle light in this scene. Are e-pub files that different from paper? (I dont have room for any more books, my home overfloweth!) There is no doubt about it in what I read combing was done to completion in electric light. I really hope I am buying and reading works as the authors intended them to be - without any unauthorized revisions to the content.
Kelly wrote: "The ghost is Jamie. But what I want to know is where he came from. In other words if Jamie is dead and his ghost is visiting Claire in the present. Does that mean she is not dead in the past?"What Diana actually says is:
"The ghost is Jamie--but as for how it fits into the story, All Will Be Explained--in King, Farewell which is Book Five {running and ducking}"
then later she writes:
"I write something that I intend to be only color, and it sort of turns into something else in later books.
There's that ghost in Outlander, for instance....{grin}"
I think the ghost may be anything from her description there, he may be a spirit looking after Claire, just like Bree came to Jamie as a spirit.
Diana seems to be implying later on that she changed her mind about the ghost, and expanded on him in ways she didn't consider when she wrote Outlander... I could see her doing that, and it would be interesting.
Wan wrote: "Dee is right. It was in FC when Jamie told Claire that he "had vision" of her in the strange light sitting by the looking glass and brushing her hair."Oh, I forgot that. Yes it does imply it was his soul watching over her more than a ghost doesn't it? Maybe they can travel in dream states too?
He doesn't say that she was brushing her hair. He said she was sitting at a desk and there was strange light, likely artificial. He also mentions, when Claire asks if she looked the same, he said she looked like herself and motioned to her standing in front of him. If she had looked 25-30 years younger, he would have noticed that.I don't believe that his vision of her was the time the ghost was looking at Claire.
Wan wrote: "And yes, I don't think it was ghost either."Me neither, I think it was that their souls were linked forever, regardless of the time dimension they were in and like Mandy had that ability. How this all will fit in I guess we'll have to wait until Diana writes it for us. Hopefully she's thinking about it in her new books.
Just listened to that part in DIA and then had to go look it up in the book b/c..."
Oooh,that's interesting. I didn't catch that.