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Still Life With Oysters and Lemon: On Objects and Intimacy by Mark Doty
message 51:
by
Robin
(new)
Nov 01, 2010 10:55AM
Heather haven't gotten my book yet, but once I do will hurriedly start to read.
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I'm reading and ready to start posting!
Go post away, I just won't look, since I never got my copy yet. That's what you get for living in Hawaii, what with the snail mail and all.
It's a nice book, don't you think, Dvora? Not necessarily what I was expecting--more like a long personal essay than a work of art history--but the writing itself is really quite good. And I think the main themes of Doty's ruminations--the transient nature of life and the abiding human affection for permanent physical objects--fit very well with his discussion of Dutch still life.
Heather wrote: "oh, wanted to add...whoever put the book at the top of the discussion board as 'currently reading'-Thank You! I didn't know how to do that. Would you like to continue posting our books that we are ..."That was me. I've already forgotten how I did it but I'm sure I could figure it out again, if you want me to post the next book.
I see now I was following Amal's instructions: "To show the book @ the top of the group page, go to the group’s bookshelf and change the book status to “currently-reading”.
Thank you, Lobstergirl! I will let you continue to post our books. Thank you for sharing that with me, though!
Send me a note to my inbox with title, start and finish dates, and any other relevant information.
Heather, do we post our comments on this book here in this thread?
Yes, Amal. Thanks for asking just in case anyone else had the same question.
Yes, Jonathan, I think it's a lovely book. In that way it reminds me of Gilead, although it is not a novel and really in no way like it. But it acts as a catalyst for thought and memory and I am really enjoying that.On page 6 he talks about reflection in painting, “That there can never be too much of reality; that the attempt to draw nearer to it – which will fail – will not fail entirely, as it will give us not the fact of lemons and oysters but this, which is its own fact, its own brave assay toward what is.”
I have often thought about reality and what is reality, can we know it, people say that novels are not real, but on the other hand non-fiction can sometimes be more unreal than a good novel. However, this thought of not drawing or portraying reality, but only moving towards it, makes a lot of sense to me.
He goes on, “That description is an inexact, loving art, and a reflexive one; when we describe the world we come closer to saying what we are.”
Jonathan wrote: "It's a nice book, don't you think, Dvora? Not necessarily what I was expecting--more like a long personal essay than a work of art history--but the writing itself is really quite good. And I think ..."
I have a general comment, not so much about this book but about posting on books we are reading. This book has no plot, so I see no reason to even consider the issue of spoilers. But in general, could we set the date for our discussion to be the date that members should have read the book so that we don't have to constantly worry about what we write and warning of spoilers, etc.?
That's fine, Dvora. I haven't started the book yet, so I wasn't sure of the layout. If the spoiler alert is unnecessary, go ahead and leave your comments for all of us to follow. If we want to wait to discuss the entire book until November 10, we can do that. We have 8 more days to read then we should have a great discussion at that point.
Oops. Sorry, I didn't realize I was jumping the gun. I'm about half way through, but didn't realize when you said something about 70 pages that that referred to the entire book!
Hi everyone! I'm jumping in on this one! :) It seems like such an original book. Nov 10 it is!
70page/10days=7pages/dayso I'm 2 days late and 14 pages behind :(
Amal at least you are ahead of me, I haven't even gotten the book yet. YIKES!I have finished reading Camille Claudel and my other book and am now awaiting the Oysters and Lemon book.
I caved and bought another copy, so I can refresh my memory enough to discuss it.But it's a paperback, and not the beautiful little signed hardback I lost. Grrrrrr.
Ruth wrote: "I caved and bought another copy, so I can refresh my memory enough to discuss it.But it's a paperback, and not the beautiful little signed hardback I lost. Grrrrrr."
Ruth, it will turn up in some toatally unlkely and unreasonable spot long after the discussion. I know just how you feel though. I hate it when I misplace some special copy of a favorite book. Nowadays I just assume it's packed in one of the many boxes still -- but I won't know till I have bookcases again and start looking into the boxes.
Some day whoever borrowed it will give it back. Ha!
At least all you guys got your copy, still waiting for the Fed Ex guy to deliver mine, What is with this mail?
Dunno, Robin. I ordered mine from the Big A late Sunday night. It was here Tues am.
I got it shipped and it is supposed to be here by Fed Ex between the window of October 27 - November 14. Nevertheless, when it does show up, I will hurriedly start reading away, Doesn't this reading timeline end on November 10, for this particular book?
Robin wrote: "I got it shipped and it is supposed to be here by Fed Ex between the window of October 27 - November 14. Nevertheless, when it does show up, I will hurriedly start reading away, Doesn't this readi..."Yes but I would assume the discussion would continue well beyond the tenth given some are reading the book during the ten days. It is a book which you can read relatively quickly but I would recommend taking notes or marking things as you go as there are plenty of discussion points.
Just quotingpage 7
"We long to connect; we fear that if we do, our freedom and individuality will disapear."
page 9
"To think through things, that's the still life painter's work and the poet's. Both sorts of artists require a tangible vocabulary, a wordly lexicon...a phantom language..why should we have been born knowing how to love the world? We require, again and again, these demonstrations."
Thanks Dottie, I am usually a quick reader, so i should have no problem ONCE I get the durn book. They said they shipped it on the 22nd of October, blah,blah...
Thank you HeatherHere are few more
Page 16
...this is the testament of falling in love with light,its endless variation, its subtley and complexity...it is a sort of knowledge that must be wordless, incommunicable, so precisely does it depend upon a long context of looking and practice, and so specific is its aim.
Page 18
Portraits often seem pregnant with speech...But no word will ever be spoken here,among the flowers and snails, the solid and dependable apples, this heap of rumpled books, this pewter plate on which a few opened oysters lie, giving up thier silver...painting creates silence...it is the act of painting that makes them perennially poised, an emergent truth about to be articulated,a word waiting to be spoken..At the end of time, will that word be said?
Hello, I am new to Goodreads and just joined this group. I picked up Still Life... at my library today (pleasantly surprised to find they had it) and am just a few pages in but already loving it. Happy to be joining you! Best,Kelley
Lucky, you found it at your library, my library has it missing or lost from its shelves and they are not about to replace it. Still awaiting mine, I bought it used, and I suppose it is coming from the outlet in Ohio, then will be shipped to me. Heather, I already have the copy of The Rape of Europa and am reading that, and so I will be current once I get the other back. Is this alright?
Sure, Robin. It's fine that you have the book Rape of Europa(you're way ahead of me! Mine is still on back order). And I'm sure the discussion can go on even after the 10th when we have completed the book so that you can enter your thoughts and ideas.Welcome, Kelley! Glad to have you, and thanks for introducing yourself and participating in the group discussions!
Amal, aren't his words so poetic? Would this be considered a type of Ekphrastic poetry?
Hi Kelley and welcome to the group. I love the combination of art and books and hope you will too.
After my copy arrived at Barnes & Noble, I picked it up and read it in one sitting. It's definitely not what I expected. As I considered how Doty attempts to connect death, art, and style, however, his musings make more sense.
I agree with Jonathan--the writing is quite lovely. I most enjoyed the descriptions of his visits to the Met and Rijksmuseum because although i don't know the painting, his description of museum ritual (noticing the weather, the architecture, visitors, etc.) speak to the way in which how a work is exhibited and the viewer's memory can alter his perception of art, and that interests me. I don't know that he's so much attempting to connect art with death and style as he is exploring memory and how we live with our objects. But death is important because it crystalizes memory. I also think the parallels he makes between painting and poetry are interesting--the idea of a verbal vocabulary and sort of vocabulary of pigments and oils/painterly skill. He mentions James Elkins (p58) What Painting Is--has anyone read it? (Forgive me if it has already been discussed.) It has a lot to do with bodies (which is kind of where they lose me) and the alchemy of painting. I read it a couple years ago and might need to revisit it.
Mark Doty is primarily a poet, although he's written some wonderful memoirs, too. I've taken a couple of poetry workshops with him. He's gracious, intelligent and kind. I think all these traits are evident in this book.BTW, I sent him a note to tell him we were discussing his book, and inviting him to stop by if he'd like. He's on tour right now, but he said he was delighted that we were discussing the book.
Hi Ruth. I had wanted to thank you for recommending this book--never heard of it before but really enjoyed the read. What you say about Doty being primarily a poet is interesting. This book makes some very sound observations about art history, but I actually found it more interesting as a reflection of the author's thoughts on how life intersects with art. A few paintings from Golden Age Holland spark all of these memories about his relationship with his partner and the life they shared together. This topic could easily have spiraled out of an author's control, but the thematic connection to the still lifes keeps things focused and does not seem at all forced to me.
Very nice that you've done workshops with him...
I love the way he explores the endless fascination we have with still life, with the look of things, with the place of objects in our lives.I wish there were more books delving into our relationship with art in this way. I tire sometimes of the standard art historical approach.
This type of personal essay writing is very difficult to pull off. That said, there are some sections of Proust--particularly where he discusses Vermeer's "View of Delft" in "A la recherche du temps perdu"--that explore similar themes on an even larger scale. But generally, this is the sort of thing I prefer in small doses.
Ah, Proust. Twice I've failed to scale that mountain. I agree, small doses are best.
Heather wrote: "Would this be considered a type of Ekphrastic poetry? ..."
I believe so :)
Thanks Kelley, Ruth, Jonathan, I'm enjoying all your comments. To me the book also (I think Kelley mentioned this) speaks of things and our relationship with the material things we value and live with. Coming from a anti-materialist background, I'm very gratified to be vindicated in my love of some of my treasures, some of which I've also found at flea markets, some that are simply beautiful, and others that remind me of someone or somewhere.
There are so many moments of insight, so many bits of incredibly graceful writing, that my lost hardback of this book was festooned with sticky tabs. Now my new paperback is equally full of them. Where to begin?I have painted many still lifes myself and yet I never had such a deep understanding of their fascination as does Mark Doty.
“The brink upon which still life rests is the brink of time, the edge of something about to happen.”
Does it seem that way to any of you? Has this book changed the way you look at a still life, or has it, as it has for me, articulated something I felt but didn’t understand?
Here's the Adriaen Coorte asparagus painting he spends quite a bit of time on.
And here's the shells
Mark Doty may have fallen in love with a painting but the very first paragraph of description in this book made me fall in love with the book. And then in that second paragraph we got to the love affair which gave the book it's title and I was completely hooked."I have been drawn into the orbit of a painting, have allowed myself to be pulled into its sphere by casual attraction deepening to something more compelling."
A painting in motion? Making an orbit -- through time? through space? Passing people rather than them passing before the painting? The description of the looking, reference to the "tenderness of experience", the sense of being "held in intimacy with the things of the world" -- it sounds like love, which is what he originally said -- he had fallen in love with a painting. The long passage where he is talking of the painting and its "assertions" is pure poetry in my opinion. And then in the next breath it seems he is opposing himself -- stating his resistance to the assertion that Bachelard put forth that intimacy is the highest value. Roots vs freedom.
"Alchemist's work turning tin and arsenic and vegetable juices into golden fruit painted with a kind of showy complication and variety there must have been competition among the paitners of lemons.
"To think through things, that is the still life painter's work -- and the poet's." And ours to some degree, if I'm reading Doty correctly in this book.
Mary Doty so eloquently describes the picture that so captured him and it makes me yearn to observe more closely and respectfully the world, the people, the things that make up life around us. As in a painting ourselves, we can capture our views and visions within the single canvas of our own minds.
I finally got my book in the mail, and have started reading. I like Mark Doty's descriptions of his Mamaw's pocketbook, that resonated with me, since I keep oodles of detritus in my bag. I do know how he feels about a still life, I feel the same way when I see Monet's works of impressionism, even though it isn't still life, it gives me great satisfaction in viewing it.
So many impressions from this book, but as the sun has decided to show today, I must get painting, so I'll choose just one for now. The idea of falling in love when looking at a painting is something I identifyed deeply with as a painter and a viewer. I remember going to see the Helga pictures by A. Wyeth and just feeling stunned, wishing everyone would leave the room, tears leaking out of my eyes and my heart singing sonnets, so defintely felt that. And each time I paint, I literally fall in love with the object, scene, person I am painting. It has something to do, perhaps, with looking deeply at something and discovering its uniqueness in the world. There is beauty in everything if you look hard enough and long enough. Ah, there's' a quote in Art Spirit relating to that... I'll have to look it up. Gotta run, enjoying the posts here!
Heather, lovely and poetic last line in your post.Robin, that pocketbook brought tears to my eyes as I pictured my own grandmother's bag quite similar to Doty's description and the items which came from its depths -- also eerily similar during my childhood -- hers yielded not the red and white peppermints but the pink or white lozenges of peppermint or wintergreen, thick and somewhat powdery in texture which were the choice of the older generation of women in my family. I remember my great-aunt usually had a few of these in the pocket of her ever-present apron.
Kim, lovely post also and I'm looking forward to that quote when you have time.
