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2010-10 ANATHEM: Separation of Science and Society *Possible Spoilers*
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I have been thinking about it also. In our society most major scientific advances usually occurred when we were under pressure, a pandemic, a war etc. I have to think what would happen if we just has a bunch of smart people put into a room with unlimited funding and all they have to do is think about stuff.Typing this there would need to be some sort of middle men, someone to take the theory and fit it into society.
I disagree, I think most advances in say very large and very small physics in the last dunno 45 years are not due to any input or need from society (apart of course from funding necessary for experiments ;) ). And a lot of more abstract physics ( dunno, symmetry laws) does not have any real connection with anything related to society. Mathematics counts? It almost never has anything to do with society.
Hirondelle wrote: "I disagree, I think most advances in say very large and very small physics in the last dunno 45 years are not due to any input or need from society (apart of course from funding necessary for exper..."I tend to agree with Hirondale. Most of the advances in theoretical physics and high-order math, for example have actually happened in institutional settings (universities, government projects, and have been driven by the accumulated theory and research in those fields (or reactions against those theories) -- the "what's next" syndrome. Nothing occurs in a vacuum, but the concerts are clearly a society unto themselves and the accumulated knowledge therein, if somewhat calcified and certainly overly sanctified, is nevertheless, immense. Very fertile fields, there, at least the way Stephenson depicts the concents.
But is it used for anything? They seem remarkably uninterested in saecular society.
And so, unless I am mistaken, are the university and government think tanks. Yet, your question of uselessness seems really valid. And I think that this is one of Stephenson's encoded messages for Anathem.
"But is it used for anything? They seem remarkably uninterested in saecular society. "Not sure I understand the they.
About our current world, a lot of research on dunno cosmology is not likely to have any practical applications at all ( though one never knows, the baby and queen victoria´s question thing).
About the research done in the concents, well, I think no, they are willingly cut off from society, all that matters for them is their own academia. And remember they only interact with outside world, other maths during aperture. For centenarians and millenarians not only they are not uninterested but they can not interact with society, any society, in any short or mid term.
Hirondelle wrote: ""But is it used for anything? They seem remarkably uninterested in saecular society. "Not sure I understand the they.
About our current world, a lot of research on dunno cosmology is not likely..."
By they, I meant the people in the concents. And as far as researchers IRL being interested in society, probably not, in our world today, but Harvard University at least has a department that seeks to find businesses that will apply their research to actual products to be marketed to the populace at large.
Well, not just Harvard I am sure. Of course every scientist wants to market their research as having potential to make lots of money and change the world. But some fundamental research is JUST not going to be "useful" for the populace at large anytime soon, no matter who wants to market it - quantum chromodynamics, general relativity stuff, cosmology. Its point is beyond being useful to the "populace" and rather well, fundamental, meaning that I can imagine people studying it and thought experimenting with it for decades and decades. Just because. Though sometimes there are spinoffs from it, like the world wide web
Glad this has turned into an interesting discussion. :)Research IRL, even of the theoretical variety, doesn't necessarily happen in isolation. One set of researchers in one location will build upon the research done by others in another location.
With the Maths isolated even from other Maths (except for Apert which only lasts for 2 weeks), there is little to no input even from their peers in other locations.
They do have the advantage of time if I'm remembering the time line correctly, which may make up for the sporadic communications. They also probably benefit from a pleasurable lack of distractions other than the basic day to day necessities.
IIRC when there is Apert loads of texts are transferred ( I think through the net the ITA maintain) between maths and concents - it´s like they get a lot of mail and publications, to keep them going for the next decade or century, not just face to face interaction for 10 days. I think the milenarians, Apert always coincides with a convox.
Hirondelle wrote: "I think the milenarians, Apert always coincides with a convox. "I believe so. If I remember right, the dictionary is also updated at this time.
And I forgot to add that I think the transmission of ideas is also done between fras moving from maths to maths. For example a decenarian moving to a centennarian math through the labyrinth on year (for example) something67 will probably take with him the ideas the decenarian math has adquired in the last 6 aperts and his maths own ideas for the last 7 years - though he will only take it on his brain so likely only take those ideas for what he is interested in.
I dont beleive they are as isolated as we think. There seemed to be some sort of interfacing with the outside at a higher level. The book made a point of showing the technical advances of the outside world.I think they do the thinking and somehow it gets translated into useful technology on the outside.
I think the outside world has had ups and downs of tech, that perhaps its peak was around th. eir year 0 - we get that from the oh-so-long arctic meanderings. The outside world´s tech is sort of reinventing the wheel all over again, they are not even a tech peak when compared to other points in their past. For example when they get the plans for the space suits. And the outside world must have its libraries of some sort as well, to serve as inspiration for creating new mobile phones or something. Or like the story about the oven model not being good but not being changed in thousands of years.
And the skyscrapers that Erasmus' sister now uses to make things from.
My main concern is the idea that advances can be made in a virtual vacuum. Society has been driven by scientific advances, but those advances are more often than not driven by needs and events that happen around us.
What do you all think?