Karen Chance Fans discussion
This topic is about
Curse the Dawn
The Cassie Books
>
Curse the Dawn (Cassandra Palmer #4)
message 251:
by
Mello ❣ Illium ✮Harry✮ ☀Myrnin☀ Torin
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Sep 10, 2013 06:44PM
Lol!
reply
|
flag
Lol! To confuse matters further...for Agnes, the party scene happened before the Guy Fawkes Day scene, so it's entirely possible she did recognize Roger in CtD. But for Roger, the party scene happened after the GFD scene, given his reaction to Cassie (and referencing the GFD incident to Artemis later in the ensuing chase). Time travel, man. It messes with the mind!
My brain is melting!
It's so hard to keep track! We are keeping a master timeline somewhere right? Lannister? LOL!
Sorry, my brain just short-circuited and all data has been lost! I'm frantically trying to reboot as we speak! :PI'm wondering about something else now ...
The story the Pythian Court put out about Elizabeth Palmer was that Roger Palmer showed up at the Pythian Court for some reason (possibly on Tony's business). She and Roger meet and a week later they elope. Except Mircea reckons in Hunt the Moon that this wasn't the truth, and the Pythian Court put this story out a few months later because they didn't want to admit to losing their heir, and the night she actually ran off was the night of the party in Hunt the Moon.
So this means Agnes has had two opportunities to meet Roger Palmer before the Guy Fawkes scene (1. when he showed up at the Pythian Court and 2. at the party). I suppose it's possible the whole thing about him going to the Pythian Court on business is a lie they put out. If he did go, I'd guess he was probably glamoured because he was disguising himself as the dark-haired guy that Tony knew by this point. Yet he wasn't glamoured at the party, cos he was blond there. And what did Tony think when his favourite human got arrested by the Pythia for an assault on the timeline?!
Gah, this whole thing is so confusing!!
It would be less confusing if we know at what point in his life Roger actually did these things. Did anyone ever say just how long he'd been working for Tony? The guy couldn't have been all that old, but just in this book and Hunt the Moon, we find out just how much he'd actually done. Sure he could time travel, but I didn't get the impression that was something that he could do on his own all that often.
Okay so if Roger was at the party with Artemis and Agnes, that meant it was before Artemis ran away and therefore BEFORE Agnes got called back in time to fix him.Unless Agnes wasn't at the dinner party, only Artemis was? I mean, Agnes would have totally recognized Cassie and blown the whole thing. Maybe part of the "opportunity" Mircea dug up involved an Agnes-free environment.
Agnes was there. He was definitely there before Artemis ran away because he was the one that helped her run. They seemed to have known each other for some time before that happened. Him going back in time on GFD and having that run in with Agnes and Cassie happened after Artemis ran off (which doesn't quite make sense because why would Artemis have let him do that?). So when Cassie was at the party, Agnes wouldn't have recognized her because they hadn't actually met, yet.
Mod
"he wasn't that good-looking, he had the social skills of a wet cat and the patience of a caffeinated hummingbird. in between crazy stunts and, okay, saving my life, he was just really annoying. when we'd started working together, I'd assumed it would be a question of putting up with Pritkin; then suddenly the stupid hair was making me smile, and the sporadic heroics were making my heart jump and the instant hitching had me wanting to kiss him quiet."
she basically just admits she's in love with Pritkin!
It does sound that way, doesn't it? I love that part. It shows what Cassie really thinks and gives away what she feels.
Leodora, yeah, I agree. I think your quote speaks volumes. Love is about accepting someone despite all their faults, and I think Cassie has come to accept Pritkin exactly as he is. She doesn't doubt him the way she doubts Mircea. She never thinks "Pritkin only protects me for prestige or to advance himself within the Silver Circle". After Cassie came to know Pritkin, she never once doubts his loyalty to her, and never questions if he has any kind of agenda of his own (which he doesn't). Contrast that with Mircea, where we get lots of "He's so gorgeous and sexy" but also "he's only interested in my power and position" thrown in.Pritkin = Total acceptance of the whole package
Mircea = Attractive package. Lots of doubts.
Mod
Still have to point out...Pritkin only tells her the big things because of force, not out of the "goodness" of his little incubus heart. Just, you know, saying. AND it should be more...Pritkin = hatred of hair, also it's short and crazy looking
Mircea = gorgeous, long flowing locks of dark goodness that is utterly caress-able.
I love how mircea bathed cassie. I find it very romantic (although, yes, it's a proprietary move)
Aileen, there is no doubt Mircea wins when we're talking about hair. He wins by about a mile!! Also, you've inspired me for my Countdown Quiz!
Mod
and it's not like Cassie is actually forcing him to tell her anything, if Pritkin really didn't care he would just walk away or make something explode! he tells her because he somewhere deep down wants her to know.
'cause you know, how can you really love someone if you don't really know them? *hint hint wink wink*
While I'm the first to use anything I can as Prissie evidence- I honestly think Pritkin tells Cassie things not with the intention of bringing her closer to him, but with the intention of pushing her away.He doesn't think he's good enough to warrant her care for him. He's so intent on pushing her away before he hurts her the way he hurt the last woman he loved in his life- and before she can hurt him that way too. So he tells her all his deepest darkest issues thinking that what's best for her is for her to stay away- but Cassie being her kind and loyal self won't let him. [The fact she's in love with him doesn't hurt either :P ].
But that's the point. Pritkin tells Cassie all the things he hates about himself, because it's better for her to know.
Mircea is careful not to tell Cassie anything that'll risk their relationship- because for him, it's better that she's ignorant and with him, than for her to know the ins and outs before making decisions. Pritkin's prepared to be honest with Cassie, even if it means losing her, because he thinks he owes it to her for her to know the whole truth.
I know what I find more attractive ;)
I agree 100%, Lia.
Well said Lia! I agree, and isn't it ironic that he's doing it to push her away but it's probably one of the factors that will end up bringing them closer together? Lol.
I agree with you too Lia! As much as I love Mircea, he isn't as good for Cassie as Pritkin is. also, Mircea would prefer that Cassie hide in the suite behind a barricade of guards. Pritkin drags Cassie off her butt and teaches her to defend herself. If Mircea thought of her as an equal, he would acknowledge that she needs to know how to protect herself, regardless of bodyguards.
I almost agree with you, Lia. I agree that Pritkin tells Cassie stuff in part to push her away. But I'm not sure that Mircea avoid telling Cassie things to preserve their relationship. Surely he must see that it isn't working very well.Sometimes I wonder if Mircea is really trying very hard to make things work with Cassie. He's not dumb and he must realise how much it drives her nuts when he keeps things from her. If he has any brains -- and we know he is one of the cleverest schemers amongst vampires -- then he must know that when she finds out he has a daughter, she'll be hurt and angry that he kept that from her.
I am not sure if it's because he has a compulsion / long habit of keeping his secrets, most especially knowledge of his daughter, or if it's because on some level he doesn't really want to let Cassie get any closer to him than she already has.
And if the latter, is it because he wants to maintain his edge in the balance of power in that relationship? Or is it because there's someone he'll always love more (Dory's mother)? (Could that explain why he doesn't make women vampires?)
Bell...when talking about Mircea I wonder if he is looking at Cassie knowing about Dory from a protection standpoint...and the point that it will hurt Cassie. I believe that Dory is a very well kept secret, I doubt Tony knows about her, and he was at one time very close to Mircea. I bet only the Senate members know about her, and only because they have too. So, about Dory...I wonder if Mircea hasn't told Cassie as of yet (maybe in TtS?? Hopefully??) is because of her status in Mirceas life. If Cassie was ever captured and tortured because of Mircea, anything she knows is dangerous. Mircea is so sneaky and so conniving. I believe that most everything Mircea does is to protect Dory and/or Cassie.
That's interesting, it never occurred to me that Tony might not know about Dory. At the beginning of the Dory series, who knew about her? Marlowe, Radu, the Consul presumably, the senator who was with Mircea when Drac carved up Dory (was that Augusta?)... and who else? Now that she's on the Senate, presumably everyone knows, so it's extra strange that Mircea hasn't mentioned it to Cassie.
Mod
I remember when KC answered in a Q & A about why Dory and Marlowe hated each other. She said that Marlowe had been hunting down a dhampir that he believed (wrongly) had killed one of his people. After Dory gave him a lot of grief, de decided she was getting dragged in front of the Senate for punishment, and of course Mircea intervened. But, the point is, Mircea and Marlowe were both on the Senate, and Marlowe didn't know about Dory until he had personal dealings with her. I've no idea when this thing with Dory and Marlowe happened, but it shows that Dory is not common knowledge, even among the Senators.I had tended to think that Tony must have know about Dory, simply because Mircea was still very young when he met Tony and he needed him (or, at least, he needed his money). I just assumed that Tony had heard about Dory, even if he'd never met her. But, having said that, Cassie notes that Tony liked to brag about his connection to vampire rockstar Mircea Basarab, so I would have thought that if Tony knew Mircea had a daughter, surely Cassie would have heard about it at some point? I get the feeling they liked to gossip at Tony's.
That's one reason I didn't think Tony knew. And I think Mircea didn't tell him BECAUSE he knew Tony wouldn't keep it a secret. I think that prior to Furys Kiss all the Senate Members knew, mainly because I think by then they probably had some sort of dealings with her. But I REALLY believe that Dory, because of being a Dhampir and the issue with her mind, was kept from EVERYONE except very certain people. Usually either people who had dealing with her or Mircea felt he could tell them, or that he had to tell them, like the Consul.
But who else would you tell about your daughter if not your wife? At least Mircea could be certain that Cassie wouldn't try and kill Dory. He can't say the same for the Senators.
I think if she was the only thing he was keeping from Cassie, excuses could be made. But Mircea doesn't tell Cassie anything until it's absolutely necessary. Not about her father, not about the coronation, not a lot at all really. And these things pile up. And Cassie having a step-daughter [haha! weird thought, huh?] is the shiny red cherry on the sundae of deception. What's not his fault really, is that Cassie has spent however long thinking that this woman is his hidden vampire mistress who he's been in love with for centuries. I want to shake her and say "Stand up for yourself, woman! You're this dude's vegas bride. Demand answers!"
Supposing she was right, and Mircea had a vampire mistress who he'd loved for centuries- isn't it better to know sooner rather than later? Cut off emotional ties before they get to strong? What happened to self respect, Cassie?
Good point, Claire. I feel this simply reinforces that fact that Mircea doesn't truly see Cassie as a wife. She's a very valuable servant that he's fond of and has sworn to protect. But Mircea doesn't tell his servants everything. Just ask Tony.
You know what I think is funny?? That Cassie has not confronted him yet. I think (to me) that shows she loves him, and she's afraid of what she will find out, because if Dory really WAS his secret vampire mistress it would break Cassie's heart. So...I think she loves Mircea and that's only partly why she hasn't confronted him yet. Cassie just...doesn't seem to like emotions. Especially when she has to express them to others. I think it's all those years at Tony's. I remember a couple times when she talks about how much practice she had in schooling her face and all. I think that while inside, in the back of her mind, she is raging and very upset, the front just ignores it because she loves Mircea and doesn't want to lose him.
I agree, Lia. Cassie really should have said something about that. I couldn't have been in a relationship with someone thinking they'd been taking secret photos of some woman over the centuries and they were obviously the kind of pics you take of someone you care for.
I think the fact that Cassie truly believes Mircea would keep a mistress on the side says a lot. I mean, she didn't hesitate to confront Pritkin when she thought he was a crazy murderer, probably because she knew Pritkin would never betray her like that. She's not so sure about Mircea.
Good point Claire! The only reason she's not confronting him is because she thinks that as soon as she does, that will be the end of the relationship. If she only had a small doubt, she'd put it out there and let him explain himself and they'd both move on. But she doesn't have a small doubt- she thinks he's hiding a mistress from her. She thinks confronting him means confirming that he's deceiving her. I'm kind of proud of her for not trusting him, at least.
Well, Cassie, in a roundabout way, did kinda confront him. She asked him about 'his girlfriend' though she didn't come right out and say "the one in the photographs". But she did ask the question.I think Cassie probably doesn't want to make an issue out of it, not just because it could spell the end of their relationship, but because I think she's got too much else on her plate to deal with it right now. She wants to maintain the status quo until she sorts herself out a bit. However ... there could be another reason. Maybe, as her feelings for Pritkin grow, Mircea having another woman begins to matter less and less. She hasn't confronted him because she's starting to not give a shit! :P
Mod
Sadly, I just don't see it being that she doesn't care. She DID confront him, which means she cares. I think the way she talks about Mircea and...*grumble grumble* Pritkin...shows that she does really care about both of them. She DOES love Mircea, but..........I have to admit........though I hate too........I think she loves *gags* Pritkin too. I think it's just that she has different relationships with both of them and when she confronts Pritkin about being a murderer it was WAY before deeper feelings developed between them. She was still under the geis then, I think that when that was in effect in a strong way her feelings for anyone else was very limited, which is why.....hate to admit this, but I can...it took much longer for her to get close to Pritkin on a physical level.THOUGH I still believe he is more friend than lover in her mind. I will stand by that fact for a VERY long time because I know she loves Mircea, and as of yet, Pritkin is loved in a more friendly less carnal way. For now...sad as I am to say it. TtS just...needs to come out already.
Aileen wrote: "She DID confront him, which means she cares. "True. And look at the way Cassie reacted when she came face to face with Dory in Fury's Kiss. I have to agree that wasn't the behaviour of someone who's indifferent.
I think she loves *gags* Pritkin too.
OMG, I lost it reading that!! It's the gagging part! LMFAO!! :D
I think Cassie does get different things out of her relationships with both her guys. Maybe she needs to take a break from both of them and sort herself out. She could go stay with Dory for a while ... ;)
I hope we get some sort of development on the relationships front (whether positive or negative) in TtS.
I'm not disagreeing that Cassie cares for Mircea too....but I definitely don't think about kissing my male friends to shut them up.It's definitely possible that Cassie just doesn't want to shake the tree.
There's something else too: Mircea's protection, and even more, his affection.Cassie treats her vamp guards like a family, but how many of them have genuine affection for her? How many of them treat her with respect simply because she's "the Master's woman"?
If Cassie confronts Mircea about...well, everything, they might and probably will "break up". If that happens, Cassie stands to lose a lot, and while it might seem trivial in the day-to-day life, it could be cruical in a fight. If it becomes a well known fact that Cassie and Mircea are no longer romantically involved, regardless of the fact that Mircea would skin any vamp that neglected to protect Cassie, I doubt the guards would make that assumption. They'd be protecting her as they would any other human, not knowing anything, because they there for their brawn, not their brain. Plus, I believe a lot of them are kept on a need to know basis, as Marco says, believing that guarding the master's girlfriend in Vegas to be a vacation, which means Cassie's real value as an asset in the war is kept secret. So, if they break up, Cassie will not lose her guards, but since they are only prepared to die for her because of her status as Mircea's wife, their level of commitment to her protection will lessen.
As for his affection: Cassie cares about Mircea, and it would hurt her to be on bad terms with him. That's why she doesn't confront Mircea about Dory, or about anything else.
On the other hand, Pritkin swore at the end of book two that he would lay down his life for Cassie (which he finally managed to do at the end of HtM-hindsight is always a bitch) and that played a big part in their friendship, and in Cassie's ease with which she demanded answers from him, plus, after she met Rosier in book 3, she knew Pritkin hadn't betrayed her by killing Salah. Plus, even if she and Pritkin get into a fight, he'd still protect her, to the bitter end.
I think you touch on some issues that haven't really been discussed all that much, Scarlet.Let's say Cassie and Mircea broke up tomorrow and Mircea took the huff (which he might, cos he's a sore loser AND because he'd be in the poop with the Consul). If Mircea withdraws his protection, what happens next?
The first thing I see happening is Casanova throwing Cassie out of Dante's and probably barring her for life! It's no secret that he doesn't much like her and only tolerates her presence because of Mircea. So where does Cassie go? She'll need to rely on either the Pythian Court or the Silver Circle for protection and for a roof over her head. We might learn more about the Pythian Court in Tempt the Stars, but there are strong hints that Cassie has enemies there so how safe would she be? I think Cassie's issues with the Silver Circle have mostly been smoothed over, thanks to Jonas, but then she's in the situation where she goes from being a vampire pawn to the Silver Circle's pawn, and they have centuries of history in dominating the Pythias so it might be difficult to establish her own rules while she's dependent on them.
I don't mean to imply that Cassie is mercenary in taking advantage of Mircea's 'hospitality', cos I think he owes her a little for messing with her life so much, but I also think Cassie is wise to stay put and not rock the boat too much until she has a clear direction to follow. I don't think she's reached that stage yet, because she's hardly has a chance to think about her situation in between crises. However, I think this day will come eventually, and my belief is that Cassie will leave. But, for now, she's wise to stay put and accept the vamps' protection and accommodations. It's the smartest and the easiest thing for her.
Also, I'm finally going to start Curse the Dawn tonight. Bring on the Body Swap scene! And hopefully some more chances to bash Mircea (my favourite past time!!) *hides from raging Mircea fans*
Mod
Leodora wrote: "talk about bashing Mircea, I love the scene where Marco grabs her and sticks a phone in her face, Mircea of course, and she just shuts the phone. Woo go Cassie!"Yay! I always like to see Cassie stand up for herself.
Mod
I think he's just too scared of Mircea!
LOL go Cassie!I think we've seen Mircea's manipulative side but we haven't actually seen the side which everyone's afraid of - the ruthless, scary side. I think he takes great care that Cassie doesn't see it.
Mod
Alright, I have to step in say this...even if Mircea and Cassie break up, and the Consul is raging mad at him, he would NEVER stop protecting Cassie. He loves her and even if she left to be with Pritkin, and he would be devastated, he couldn't just stop protecting her and loving her. Also...I'm pretty sure Marco knows a lot more than he lets on. Mircea ISN'T Tony. He doesn't make guys like Alphonse who is for their brutality. He needs guys who are smart and strong to protect anything or anyone he cares about.ALSO, When Cassie gets upset over things and doesn't rage hardcore, remember that she was raised at Tonys, and she even talks about how she thinks more like a vampire than a human. She buries her feelings, very deeply. Think of all the bombs Pritkin dropped on her, she barely reacted, since that was the way she was raised to be.
AND I think that NOTHING the Consul says could stop Mircea from protecting Cassie and Dory. He has already defied her on a lot, concerning both Cassie and Dory, and even if Cassie dumped him he would NEVER stop caring and protecting her.
Pritkin ONLY has Cassie. He has no family, doesn't really have friends, he only really has Jonas for a friend, since Mac is dead, Nick betrayed them and everyone else isn't supposed to know about him. THEN you have a dead mother and ROSSIER for a "father" the only thing in the world Pritkin really has to deal with is Cassie. I think that if Cassie wholeheartedly chose Mircea and lived with him at his court and all, Pritkin wouldn't stick around. He hates Mircea, like Mircea hates him. AND on that note, MIRCEA kissed Cassie when she was in Pritkins body. No matter how he hates Pritkin, no matter that he can most definitely SMELL Pritkin all over her, he STILL loves her, he STILL does all he can to keep her alive while dealing with all the things that are trying to stop him from doing so.
Aileen, usually you point stuff up about Mircea that make me realize that he does care about Cassie, but I wouldn't put it past him to use the protection card. And in protecting Cassie, he's not defying the Consul cause since the end of EtN, Cassie and the Consul are officially allies, regardless of Mircea and Cassies relationship. But MAGIC 2 is Mircea's property, Casanova would be more than thrilled to kick Cassie out, and that would make Cassie go back to Mircea to at least try to get a new alliance with him(from a hypothetical view that they've already broken up of course). All Mircea would have to do is say that Casanova acted on his own accord, and if word got out that they had a fight or a break up, Casanova will kick Cassie out without waiting for the order from Mircea, which of course Mircea is well aware of. Which means he wouldn't have to do anything to revoke the protection at all!
But I believe that this is something that won't come to pass, cause as of HtM, Mircea has made it clear that his protection of her stands-cause it is a protection from a business point of view, and no, I am not denying that the protection is personal, but just like he made sure Cassie wasn't present at her own coronation, for political resons, the same stands for the protection as well. Bu in the epilogue, all that has changed for Cassie, and since I believe her objective will be to rescue Pritkin from wherever he is, I don't think she will have the time to think about her relationship with Mircea, or his protection or whatever.
Scarlet, it's what I'm here for, to give all the Prissie fans a run for their money.And Mircea and the protection of Cassie thing...even if they broke up and Casanova kicked her out, I just cannot see her running to ANYONE for help. Cassie just...isn't the type. She would do what she could on her own, too afraid she'd get someone else caught in her mess. So her running to Mircea wouldn't work. Because I can't see her doing that. She's the freaking Pythia. Yeah, she has a lot of enemies, but I cannot see her running to Mircea for protection, especially if they broke up.
I don't even think that Cassie thinks of Mircea OR of Pritkin because of how they "protect" her. Cassie does a lot of her own saving, something they BOTH have come to see. So Mircea, being the smart, sneaky man he is, would KNOW that about Cassie, and KNOW that kicking her out of Dante's would not help his cause, especially if he was trying to win her back. Which...sadly...I also cannot see him doing that. Mircea is not only too proud, but I think he would know if he was beat, and wouldn't try to win her back through manipulation, Cassie'd see through it.
Karen Chance Fans
Books mentioned in this topic
Rosemary and Rue (other topics)Mark of the Demon (other topics)
The Sweet Scent of Blood (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Seanan McGuire (other topics)Diana Rowland (other topics)
Suzanne McLeod (other topics)
Stacia Kane (other topics)
Mark Del Franco (other topics)
More...
