"The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" That Dinkum Thinkum *spoilers*

[Brad]

Heinlein was kind enough to give us a perfect structure for discussion, so let's start there. I'll add some other topics as things come up, but we'll keep Manny's voice to the First Impressions section since it seems to be a perfect place for it.

[Jodie]

For a story that has an unusual take on family, Mike "That Dinkum Thinkum" probably gives us the biggest insight into how children would develop on Luna. "Manny my first friend", is the biggest influence on Mike's development, for while he may be 'aware' at the start of the tale, he really is a cross between what we consider to be a computer today (essentially a giant database) and a child with no real concept of right and wrong.

Manny is the guiding influence on how Mike changes throughout the book, growing from the child playing pranks, to the creation of a child of his own (that he then leaves in Mike's hands).

I thought this was an interesting take on the development of an AI, most other books I have read have either (a) a runaway development, where it is really a lottery where the AI will end up and the human population sits back and waits (and worries) to see where they end up, or
(b) the AI is more of an omnipotent presence who knows so much more than the people he influences, and has a more dispassionate view of what the lesser intellegent 'organic' beings consider important.

Mike ultimately ends up more human because of this, and left me wondering ...
Is Mike dead? and if so, did he kill himself?

Sure, it may have been some random damage that randomly reversed whatever it was that made him aware in the first place. But my take is that Mike matured to the point where he feared what he could do, and either retreated from people all together, or switched himself off.

[Charlotte]

Interesting view of Mike that I had not thought about - makes sense. What does not quite make sense to me is that he is the only one. From the perspective of the survival of the human race, it is more comfortable to think of sentient computers developing slowly & only with some kind of human agency, but is it realistic to think that they will not somehow pass on their abilities to others?
Of course, a sentient computer as in one we can recognize as quasi-human may not happen, but we may nevertheless be taken over by computers because we let them. We are already overly dependent on a widespread sophisticated web & it seems unlikely it is going to get any less pervasive any time soon.

As to what happened to Mike, read The Cat Who Walks through Walls, a rather belated sort of sequel which has a very different style and feel to it and very different theme.

Update: sorry, just finished TCWWTW, and we still don't know what happened to Mike! Very unsatisfying ending. I think I enjoyed that book more the first time I read it, before reading The Moon is a Harsh Mistress! Because this time I was hoping for that update. Also, it presented a fairly depressing view of the outcome of the revolution, whereas The Moon ended on a fairly hopeful note about the future evolution of the Moon society.

[stormhawk]

It occurred to me as I was reading that MIAHM is not really a science fiction novel ... okay, okay, yes, it's RAH. Yes, it's set on the moon. In the future even ... but it's a political novel. A more readable Atlas Shrugged ...

(don't get me wrong, Atlas Shrugged is one of my most favorite ever novels, but it is long, and pedantic. Luckily, I like long and pedantic)

[Sue]

Good science fiction (as opposed to "space opera") usually has a political dimension. Environment is one of the things that shapes culture, and when you get into a different environment you find a slightly (or drastically) different culture--which leads to politics as an important aspect. Even if the politics are not discussed as explicitly as in TMIAHM (which I have to confess I have not read for several decades) they are always there as a background. For me one of the reasons I read and write SF is to get a different take on our own politics--especially the things we take so much for granted we don't question them.

[stormhawk]

Because I'm reading from a pdf I wasn't sure if the section breaks were intact, didn't realize until I got to Rabble in Arms, That Dinkum Thinkum is better than 50% of the book.

[Brad]

Sue wrote: "For me one of the reasons I read and write SF is to get a different take on our own politics--especially the things we take so much for granted we don't question them. ..."

Me too, Sue. It's what first attracted me to Sci-Fi and what keeps me coming back. I have to admit that works of Sci-Fi that have low levels of political or ethical content just don't do it for me.

[Ruby]

There is a mention in To Sail beyond the Sunset that Mike was recovered and worked in concert with Athena for a project. Also Richard Colin and Gwen Hazel didn't die. Of course. More lapping of the waves of the immortality theme in the main sequence of Lazarus Long-related books. "If the dead rise not" and all that. Sci fi/fantasy tends to take the superman end of the equation, that immortality will be achieved somehow or for someone. The defining trait that takes a semi-fantasy like Winter's Tale out of the genre and makes it definitively a literary novel with a few fantastic elements, in my opinion, is the opposite viewpoint: seeing immortality as generally unachievable and no triumph anyway.

[Charlotte]

Thanks for the tip, Ruby - will check that one out. Wasn't happy with the ending of TCWWTW!

Anyone know where I can find an electronic version of To Sail beyond the Sunset? Mobi, text, html, pdf, whatever

[Valerie]

I was totally entranced by how TMIAHM handled Mike's developing sentience. He had me at wanting to learn human humor. I also felt a bit of a pang for him when at first Mannie was his only friend.

I also really enjoyed the set up of the world and culture of Luna and their struggle for freedom.

[Michele]

Just as a heads up - many people do not like Heinlein's later works and To Sail Beyond the Sunset is definitely a button pusher when it comes to sex, incest, and other things. I haven't seen an ebook version of it - there is an audiobook though.

I'm one of the few that likes a lot of his later books, but YMMV.

And if you read enough of his Lazarus Long books you will find out what becomes of Mike (view spoiler)[he is rescued through time travel, gets "adopted" into the Long family, and its made clear that he will eventually be transferred into a "meat" body as several other AIs have been given bodies (hide spoiler)]

[Al "Tank"]

Michele wrote: "Just as a heads up - many people do not like Heinlein's later works and To Sail Beyond the Sunset is definitely a button pusher when it comes to sex, incest, and other things. I haven't seen an ebo..."

I enjoyed just about all of his books, but toward the end he seemed to be looking for a Shangri-la where he could end up at instead of dying of old age. I got the feeling that the Christian version of life after death didn't work for him. So all his characters ended up with Jubal Harshaw (His alter ego?) instead of being able to wrap the story up with a solid conclusion like his earlier works.

This problem took a little away from the enjoyment of the stories, but there's still a lot of the Heinlein magic there to keep me entertained.

[Sarah]

I'm enjoying this book way more than I expected. The writing is kind of hard for me because the rhythm is so weird, but otherwise it's just such a blast!

I really love Mike. A large part of my enjoyment of this book is my affection for Mike. That and the vision of these crazy Loonies shouting "Free Luna!" while throwing rocks. It's fantastic and fabulous. I really hope that the rest of the novel holds up to this.

[Ruby]

That's wonderful, Sarah! And I think you will like it more and more right to the end. :)

[Sarah]

It's up for nomination in my in person book group. Maybe I should vote for it. Something tells me I would love it more and more each time.

[Valerie]

Sarah, I felt the same. My love started for Mike, but as the book progressed it shifted way beyond that.