Sometimes It's Hard to Tell When Not to Be Offended About Race & Stereotypes in Books

[Stacy-Deanne]

Hi All,

They were having more than one discussion about race and stereotyping in writing fiction in another writers group. It got me to thinking deeply about this, even though of course I have before.

A white writer who has just started writing said she was writing a book about black people living in an urban ghetto area. She mentioned things in her book she wanted to include for it to seem "realistic". She said she wanted to do her best not to offend readers with what she wrote. She said her characters heavily used Ebonics, etc. But she said this was staying true to the character but she was scared if folks would think she was racist. She got mixed responses.

1. Some told her to stay true to the characters no matter what. Do not be afraid to write about how she sees the characters.

2. Others said do it but with a lot of caution and told her don't be surprised if folks thought she was being racist.

3. Some told her not to do it because it was "safer" that way and she might offend.

4. Others said that she was being racist just by how she worded her post.

5. Others said she will only be perceived as racist if she comes off that way naturally.

6. Some said that just because she lived by blacks for a few years, it didn't give her the right to write about them in that fashion or as if she knew how blacks would act.

Oh did I forget her main worry was that she uses the N word because she said that's how "they" refer to each other where she lived. Well her using, "they" alone caused folks to get pissed off.

And believe me the majority of writers who posted against this were white writers. I think maybe one or two might have been black or minorities.

So back to my thoughts. As writers we are always told to write what's true to the character. But do you ever read a book where the author is of another race and their perceptions make you think maybe this is how they really think about folks of a certain race instead of just staying true to character. Is sometimes "staying true to character" an excuse for us writers to cling onto stereotypes?

The thing was that this writer offended folks because she showed narrow-minded opinions of blacks, basing them on blacks she'd lived by. I agreed with the poster who said "Just because a white person lives around blacks a few years does not mean they know everything about how blacks act and their culture." That poster said that the writer seemed to feel like she had a sense of entitlement to write "how she felt blacks from these areas are" just because she lived there a few years. And many posters said that along seemed racist.

Hmm. I admit that race is a tricky thing in literature. Even though I try to keep an open mind about it, I admit I have read stuff written about blacks that did offend. Sometimes even when I felt it was just the character's way, it still kind of offended. It did leave me wondering, "Does the author really think all blacks act this way or are they just writing the character?"

So I wanted to ask you guys, think about books you've read that portrayed a race or culture stereotypically, etc. Did you find yourself ever wondering if this was the personal thoughts of the author or if it was just for character? To me I find it easy most times to tell. It's the "hidden" stereotypical and racist stuff in books I pick up on. For example like when the book isn't even about any type of race but they show all their minority characters as one-dimensional stereotypes. That bothers me most because that is when you gotta really wonder if this is how the author really feels toward certain races.

I'd love to hear you guys' opinions.

Best Wishes!

http://www.stacy-deanne.net

[Arch , Mod]

I have never read a book by a non black person where the n word was used.

If an author wants to base their book off their real life experience, I don't think that they should include the n word and I don't care what race it using the n word.

A lot of black people use the word and they believe it's okay for them to use it, because they are black. The n words still means the same, no matter what race uses the word.

A lot of black authors tend to sterotype black people as well. Not all black people act like their black characters.

All writers should know that black people aren't the only ones that lives in the ghetto.

A true writer wouldn't go the n route.

Some people look to be offended by things they read, see on TV, etc.

The writer said "they" instead of "the people that she lived by referred to each other a n". "They" are still referring to those people.

We all have referred to people as "they".

Should a white person use the n word in their books, etc.? The answer is no. I don't care if they hear a black person say the word.

Should black people use the n word? The answer is no.

I believe that the black people that uses the n word stops using it, it can help people from other races to avoid using the word. I know we will still have other races use the word, but blacks needs to put an end to their usage of the word.

If blacks continue to put each other down by using the n word (they are putting one another down, even if they think they are just joking) and continue to sterotype blacks, then other people will think it's okay to do the same.

Blacks need to stop with the hate.

Another thing, blacks need to stop with the racism views as well. A lot of interracial books are labeling all whites as being racists.

This is how I feel about the matter.

[Stacy-Deanne]

Great points, Arch. Thanks for chiming in. I also do find it a big turnoff when I read an IR book that portrays racism. For some reason I don't want to read that in an IR book because I'm using it as an escape. I know racism exists but I don't wanna read an IR book where that's a central part of the plot. It's a big turnoff for me. I feel like if you're writing an IR book and you have to always go back to the "race" as the basis of the book, you might as well write something else. I'm also sick of IR books where the black woman is racist against dating the white man! Jeez! The point is that the characters in IR books should be ones that are into IR dating or don't even make the race an issue. Just treat them as a couple. That's just my opinion.

About blacks putting each other down, that's the biggest problem we have and it's sad that it probably won't change anytime soon.

Best Wishes!

http://www.stacy-deanne.net

[Stacy-Deanne]

I also wanna say I think stereotypes border on laziness and cliches. For instance if the lady wants to write about blacks in an urban "ghetto" area, why does she think they have to necessary speak Ebonics or say the N word? That's a misconception right there. When I write I try to be as far away from a cliche as possible. Sure it might seem realistic to say blacks who live in these areas talk like that but that is not true. Just because a black person grows up in a certain area doesn't mean they talk street or Ebonics. I've known a lot of blacks who grew up in low income neighborhoods or ghettos and they speak perfect grammar and are very intelligent. So what stuck out to me was why she felt she had to have these blacks speaking Ebonics in the first place? Why can't they be portrayed in a different light to show that not all blacks who might come from poor areas speak bad English. If you really wanna be realistic then you can switch it up. Have some folks talk street but show others that do not because that would be realistic. But every black who lives in the inner city or a ghetto doesn't speak street or Ebonics. In fact I've known more folks who've gone to college who could use a lesson in proper Grammar. LOL!

I think the more offensive part wouldn't so much be the race part but that she wants to portray blacks as speaking a certain way just because of the area they grow up in. That's not true at all. Different people live in different areas and they act and talk different ways.

Best Wishes!

[TinaNoir]

No matter what she does it will be wrong because it sounds like she is approaching the writing experience as a person who is writing about a group from an external, pre-conceived perspective.

She could literally transcribe an entire real-life conversation between two real-life people where they use non-standard grammar (I, btw, refuse to use the E-word) and it would still not sound real if her context is to simply play up a perceived stereotype.

Otoh, she could make every single one of her 'ghetto' characters use proper Queen's English and people would feel that she is being patronizing because truthfully, they would not speak that way.

So, Like I said, she can't win.

But, it can be done and done well. Look at David Simon who wrote Homicide: A Year on the Killing Streets and who created the show The Wire. Not only do some of his characters use the N-word (and liberally), but also they speak probably what some would consider not very good English and some of them live in the ghetto. But not once do you feel like he is being racist or patronizing in his work. Instead, you feel like you are reading and seeing real people.

It could be because his books also feature black police, professionals and politicians as well as gangbangers and drug dealers, so you get to see all types of black people and understand that, like whites, we're all different. Or it could be because his work gives the gangbangers and drug dealers humanity where you get to know their dreams, fears, hopes and disappointments. And during that you don't necessarily hear the bad grammar or even the N-word, but rather you hear what the person has to say. And rather than seeing a sterotype of a black drug dealer, his work lets you see that this is a young man or woman who happens to be black who happens to deal drugs. There's a difference.

[Danielle The Book Huntress , Sees Love in All Colors]

I'm not sure why this author wants to write this story. I think she needs to spend sometime asking herself why she is writing about this subject matter. Is she writing about people, human beings? Then, she is going to write a full story. If she's writing about her narrow perception about certain people who have become stand-ins for everyone, then she's going to write a very stereotypical, offensive book.

I don't think the issue is that the author is white. I think black writers write stereotypical characters and stories about black just as much; and they allowed to get away with it. I think all writers should hold themselves accountable for what they are trying to write. I don't like the race card being played against whites, but not challenging blacks for their racism. As Arch said, we have to hold ourselves to a high standard, the same as others.

From what you've said, I don't think this author is ready to write this story. She doesn't understand her characters and see them as real people. Until she does that, this manuscript is going to be a failure.

I read a story by Robert E. Howard that had some very racist depictions of black characters, and some ideas about appearance dictating how developed mentally and socially different blacks were. It really offended me. I had to approach this story as a historical document showing the pervasive attitudes of white society about blacks. In my review, I did state that I did not like this racist aspect of the story. Would I read more stories by him? Yes. I like his ideas and I like sword and sorcerer stories. Do I like that he has racist aspects in his stories? No. Do I hold him to the same standards as a modern writer? I don't think it's fair to do so. I don't mean to excuse him, but if the society has the issues, then he is merely a product of that society in which he lived. It's sad but true.

This modern writer should do better than that. The time has passed when most whites don't know any black people, and can assume we are all the same as the pervasive stereotypes presented by the media. If a person believes such things, I would question their intelligence, to be honest. The same goes for a black person believing stereotypes about white people.

[Arch , Mod]

A true writer will always write their characters a human and not put them in a labeled box.

As a reader, I want to see the characters, not have the writer tell me that John and Jane Doe (These certain people)are like this. John and Jane Doe can't speak for everyone that walks in the same race shoes that they walk in.

As a writer, I want my readers to see my characters as human.

Racism is alive and kicking and racists can display their racism in anyway that they can.

Another thing that's alive and kicking and that's prejuidice. No one is better than the next person.

I strongly believe that interracial writers should not display any of the two in their stories. If an interracial writers is a racist and/or prejuidice, then in my opinion, they don't need to be writing. Keep that hatred to yourself.

All writers should keep hatred to themselves. Racism and Prejuidice shouldn't be in books.

How are we suppose to be a whole, when someone is using an ax to divide us?

Give me a good, positive story or don't give me anything.

[Cherie]

So many good comments above. I'm chiming in because as a black person I hate reading black authors. Yeah, I said it. (Can I be honest here?) My reason is for the very things listed above- the sterotyping (yes, we do it to ourselves), the use of slang (I too refuse to use the e-word because I find the very concept offensive) as though we as a group can not use proper english DESPITE education and professional background, and sometimes even because of the racisim of the writer toward caucasions (I read one book where the only white people in the whole book were all bad guys). I have only found ONE published black author I like and its because sterotyping doesn't come into play.

I think it's been said in this dialogue already, but let me put my support behind this concept: a good writer writes about people, not a group, and people are intrinsically the same across cultural boundaries. That being said, it is unwise for a writer to write about characters trying to cast off on them the sterotypes of a group. The black community is as varied and diverse as the United States population is it self. This a group that includes Snoop Dogg, Barack Obama, Dennis Rodman, Jesse Jackson, Will Smith, Oprah Winfrey, Michael Steele, Wendy Williams and so many more. Each person mentioned can be said to represent a differnt facet of the black community, but really they're just people.

I won't even go into the inappropriate nature of her (author of the OP) use of the n-word, because it speaks for itself of her own ignorance of its current (inappropriate) usage today. I just hope she's ready for the flack when outside groups get a hold of her work.

Last, I will say a good author writes about people. A character maybe of a certain ethnicity, but ultimately, that is is not of importance, the character themselves and their expreinces should be at the forefront, therefore, making the author's ethinicity unimportant as well.

[TinaNoir]

OMG, about black writers stereotyping black community, there is so much truth to that. I was on Amazon looking for new books and came across one that looked quite interesting. It was a family drama novel (I love family drama). The description almost had me and then they used 'her baby daddy' in the book synopsis. I clicked 'Not interested.' sorry. I won't read a book where the main protagonists' ex is described as her baby daddy.

Cece, I have to agree that I tend not to read black writers on the whole as well. And it has absolutely nothing to do with the writers themselves but what I perceive to be the niche they are forced to fill in order to get published.

Too often black writers are forced to write about the Black Condition or the Black Community or, even worse, Thug Lit. It is depressing. Because all too often, that means they are writing about something serious, depressing or just distasteful. Don't get me wrong I love The Color Purple and Beloved etc. Burt sometimes you just want frothy.

I would love to know the names of black authors who are writing fun, quirky books. They don't even have to be romance. But a book that is just interesting with interesting characters that has nothing to do with growing up in the hood, baby daddies, slavery or the civil rights movement. I'd love to read works of black writer where the central component of the book is not the characters' blackness.

There are probably a ton of great writers out there who have fun stories to tell and that can't be published because they are perceived as not marketable.

Off the top of my head I only know of: Kyra Davis, Dorothy Koomson, Jill Brock, Sheila Williams, and I just discovered N.K. Jemisin who has written a SF-Fant novel.

I'd love to know more.

[Cherie]

Tina, where is the like button when I need it ;)

I know what you mean. I enjoy stories where the characters could be of almost any ethnisity or color- I guess in a nut shell that's what I'm looking for. Romance wise- that's primarily what I like to read I like Brenda Jackson, but honestly she's the only one so far.

[Danielle The Book Huntress , Sees Love in All Colors]

You guys have said it very well. Tina, I feel the same way about the limited subject matter in AA fiction. It is so depressing, or just not relevant to me. I don't want to read about the ghetto life. Sorry!

Frankly, I'd like to see more action/adventure, suspense, thrillers with AA/black characters (non-stereotypical of course). I did like Along Came a Spider, but I haven't read any of the other Alex Cross books.

CeCe, I think Brenda Jackson is probably one of the few strictly African-American fiction writers I read. I do also like Beverly Jenkins, although I'm behind on her books. I haven't given up on LA Banks although I was disappointed with the two Huntress books I read. I have enjoyed her short stories and I liked Bad Blood, her werewolf series starter.

[Chaeya]

I will say this. What is this woman's motivation? I live near mostly Hispanics and Asians, I know how they speak and their slang, but I'm not at liberty to write a story that will "speak" or "represent" them as a people unless I do the work and live with them, learn their history and so on, and most of all, I'm seeking to tell a story about them where I'm showing people something such as their struggles, something that will win people's understanding and give them pride over a certain person, experience or event. I find it disrespectful to just show only one side of black people.

I grew up reading Donald Goins books. I read everything he wrote. He lived the ghetto, and he brought the ghetto to you hook, line and sinker in each of his books. He held nothing back, and considering the fact that I lived in bad neighborhoods, not near them, I mean, I've been in the middle of drug deals, I sold drugs, I saw fights, had friends get killed, had my stuff stolen by my own family, and have had shotguns pointed at me. But even after that, I still don't think I could ever represent the streets as well as Mr. Goins.

But that was a long time ago. I no longer use the "n" word, I'll listen to it and I figure if black people want to use it, that's their choice. However, I'm so over the "ghetto" thing, and most black people I know speak proper English, they have decent jobs, they do many things which the people from the neighborhood I grew up in would have considered "white people stuff." Right now, I'm hoping Hollywood would realize we've grown as a people and that we're not all about "Thug Life." Frankly, I haven't picked up Donald Goins in years. This was the 70s and a different time where a lot of options weren't open to Black people. We had our music, our own lingo, our Black Power Movement, Isaac Hayes, our black light posters and the Pussy incense. Times are different now. I mean, I cringe too when I hear "baby daddy."

In my book, I have two black women. One is very classy and the other is a little sassy with a smart mouth. However, I don't have them speaking ebonics. A person can get a handle of their character without making them sound like they wandered out of a rap video.

My advice to this chick is to stay away or unless she's looking at pissing people off just to create some negative press and bring attention to her book. Having a controversal book can work wonders.

Chaeya

[Cherie]

Chaeya, I think we can call look back and realize things that we used to do, that we do no longer. I think a big part of that is changing times, but I also think part of it is growing up and maturing. Moving ahead in life, which we all have the opportunity to do. I think that is one of the best testaments any person or group of people could have.

Lady Danielle, I have read several of Patterson's Alex Cross books and they are all good. I love that he is a white man, writing first person for a black man and yet, color is never the central issue (unless it had to do with a case and I can't remember one where it ever came up). Alex is educated, experienced, articulate, smart, and may I say fine!! ;) If your ever in the mood for a criminal suspense Alex Cross is always a good choice.

[Stephanie]

WOW! How did I miss this topic? I need to take some time to marinate on this before I answer. But great comments

[The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears]

I would have asked this author was why was she writing about black people in the ghetto in the first place? I would want to know what kind of story she was trying to tell and would there be other black characters in it who were a counterbalance to the "eboniccs-speaking" ones?

I'm around people of varying ethnicities at any given time and if I were to write about them as characters, they certainly wouldn't be these one-dimensional caricatures. Even those who are totally Americanized, there would still be respect given to their default culture. Stereotyping for a writer, especially in this day and age is just laziness.

The big problem I'm having with authors like this and the black authors who write "ghetto lit" is that they are pandering to the very stereotypes that so many people already believe. I mean we've got a beautiful, successful and brilliant couple in the White House and yet this author wants to ignore all that?

Just from the responses she gave, it is more than clear this is a woman who has overdosed on way too much BET and for her 'cultural sensitivity' means she's allergic to yogurt.

And I am SO SICK of people using the "well black people use the 'n' word" as if that's a valid excuse. Firstly not every black person uses it nor does every black person speak in double-negatives. Has this woman ever watched Keith Olbermann? Between Eugene Robinson, Melinda Harris-Lacewell and the cute guy astrophysist (whose name momentarily escapes me), why are people still in some time warp when it comes to all the brilliance that's always been a part of our community?

Personally, NO ONE, should be using the "n" word. It's degrading, it's hateful and it's more than likely the very last word 15 year-old Emmitt Till heard before two white men put a bullet in his head after hours of torturing him. More than likely it was the last word so many black people heard as they were brutally murdered at the end of a rope.

[Cherie]

Well said Vixenne!

[Chaeya]

His name is Neil de Grasse Tyson. http://blogs.blackvoices.com/2007/07/...

Chaeya

[TinaNoir]

Aw, I love Neil de Grasse Tyson. He geeks out so charmingly! One of my favorites is when he was on the John Stewart show telling him about some of the outraged letters he got from, like, 4th graders, when they declassified Pluto a a planet. He was super funny, super charming, very personal and seriously smart. It was 100% made of win.