Karen Chance Fans discussion
This topic is about
Touch the Dark
The Cassie Books
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Touch the Dark (Cassandra Palmer #1)
You know, without the geas and Cassie running around with Pritkin...I don't think he would still be a major character. Without them running around faerie, and old time France and the body swap and whatnot probably wouldn't have happened. Mircea and Cassie getting "married" may not have either BUT she was always tied to the vamps. I think that no matter than she is Pythia will change that she has friends within the vamps, not just Mircea and Marco (yes I consider him a friend) but also Rafe. Everyone always forgets Rafe. Rafe is up there in awesomeness with Radu. I think it's the R names. There should be more R&R love. ANYWAY.On the painting thing...I think that Mircea hasn't painted since Dory was a child. I think that there are too many bad memories attached to it. His wife dying, having to fix Dory's mind. There is probably more too it that we don't know.
And Mircea lied, yes. SO DID PRITKIN. Can't overlook the whole MERLIN thing. Or the INCUBUS thing. Or ROSIER. Or just...EVERYTHING.
But then, Pritkin's not her boyfriend / Vampire husband. He has no responsibility to tell Cassie any personal information, especially stuff that doesn't actually concern her. He has a good reason for keeping the Merlin- Incubus- Rosier thing from the whole wide world [ I look at it as one thing because him being Rosier's son makes him half incubus meaning he's Merlin.] and her not knowing isn't something that would hurt her in the future. But then, it does come out and he tells her the truth. He also tells her his painful back story and deepest secret because he believes he owes it to her [I think he could have got away without telling her everything, but he still wanted to]. And this is despite the fact that he's just her bodyguard and much more recently her friend.
Conversely, Mircea's her sort of husband,right? And powerful people know of Dory's existence, especially now that she's part of the senate so it's not a safety issue, he's just neglected to tell her about something very important to him.
I feel like Pritkin's big defining issue and the thing from his past that is most important to who he is as a person is his ex-wife. I (shockingly) trust that Mircea cares for Dory perhaps more than anything else in the world and that she's the most important thing in his life.
Pritkin has allowed Cassie to know him in a way he's never let anyone before, and all he is to her is a friend. Cassie doesn't know Mircea and he's supposed to be her husband.
[This honestly wasn't supposed to be an "Ode to John Pritkin" I just wanted to show the contrast between them. Who am i kidding? Most things I think about are an Ode to Pritkin :P Can you blame me? ]
I do think Pritkin would be a very important character still, had the situation with the geis never occurred. After the events of TtD, he sought her out in CbS to help him deal with Myra. Their going to Faerie had nothing to do with Mircea (or the geis) at all, and his pledge at the end of CbS to faithfully serve her, to become her only - at that point - useful, fight-trained ally, cemented his importance to her, and as a character in the series, IMO.
It is true that they romped around searching for the Codex Merlini in EtN because Cassie was looking for a solution to the geis. Which lead to her discussion with Saleh. Which lead to Rosier attempting to kill her and exposing Pritkin's true nature and name. Which probably brought them closer together, sooner than might have otherwise occurred. But she might have discovered these things about Pritkin in time anyway, as she had promised the Dark Fey King she'd locate the lost Codex for him as payment for leaving Faerie alive (and housing Tomas). It's hard to say.
One of the crazy, *wonderful* things about this series is that, because of the time-travel aspect, and Cassie's need to bounce around through various events -sometimes several times, so many of the characters' lives, and the events of those lives, are intertwined in complex, insane ways. And seemingly innocuous events that occurred three novels (or more!) past take on huge significance later. It boggles the mind - in a good way!
Also...Yes. Pritkin did lie about his true nature and name until it was exposed and he was forced to come clean. And he didn't warn her about Rosier.
But can you blame the guy?
At several points after EtN, Cassie says she is the only person who knows Pritkin's true identity - the only person he's told, anyway. (I have my suspicions about Jonas! I'm like 91% sure he knows.) So him not telling Cassie before he did is not a true breach of trust in my mind. It was such a monumental secret, and could have hugely negative consequences for his life if exposed, that he was extremely tight-lipped about it, with good reason. And remember, it wasn't until the end of that novel, after she'd made her stance on Apollo's return very clear, that he really started to trust her completely. And he couldn't really warn her about Rosier without revealing everything else, too.
Basically, I think he had extremely good reasons to keep it from her for as long as he did.
Mircea, however, does not have nearly the same good reasons for keeping so much from Cassie. In my opinion. I actually like Mircea, quite a lot. I think his character is complex and fascinating. But I don't necessarily trust him at all, lol.
Keeping your daughter a secret to keep her safe seems more important than keeping your own secret to keep yourself safe. Yes Mircea is her boyfriend, but remember, they've only been dating for months, and until now, Dory's life was always in danger because of her status. I don't agree with Mircea's decisions--ever really--but I get them. And if I was in a relationship with him, the "keeping dory a secret" is actually one of the ones that he would get a pass on. The coronation thing would have been the end of our relationship though lol
Zeenat, that's true. I do think Mircea keeping Dory a secret is forgivable, given that they've been dating for such a short time, and he is fiercely loyal to family and protective of Dory in particular. I think it's more I get a feeling that for Mircea, tightly guarding information, doling it out sparingly and only if it benefits him in some way, is a way he maintains power and control in many aspects of his life. Which is excellent for Senatorial negotiations and makes him a formidable diplomat. But also a sub-par boyfriend, when it comes to Cassie. It's a form of power and control, and in a relationship in which there is already an imbalance of power and respect, choosing to withhold certain information, and making her work to find it out on her own, is just another way of holding her back.
Lol I agree, though. The coronation would have been the end of the line for me too.
Kat wrote: "I think it's more I get a feeling that for Mircea, tightly guarding information, doling it out sparingly and only if it benefits him in some way, is a way he maintains power and control in many aspects of his life. "YES! I agree with this 100%.
On Pritkin spilling the beans about his wife, birth and father ... I actually thought these conversations were some of the defining points in Cassie & Pritkin's relationship. They were all about Pritkin opening up and showing trust, something that he's never been able to do before. (And while Jonas has probably figured out what Pritkin is, I feel they may have an unstated agreement not to discuss specifics. Having someone reason out your secrets is not the same as actually telling them yourself).
Pritkin's been carrying the same baggage for centuries and that fact that he was able to tell Cassie and, more importantly, to listen to Cassie's opinion on the situation, speaks volumes to me.
I know Cassie & Mircea's lives have been crazy, but Mircea has never really opened up to her. Sure, he's talked a little about his parents and about Radu, but I get the sense that this is stuff that's generally known and not any great secret. He doesn't trust her with the important stuff, and that's the killer for me.
Mod
On R&R, I really do think it's the names, I remember the first time I read the series, I constantly mixed those to up! Does Cassie ever see Rafe anymore? He was under Mirceas protection from Tony right, so it would be logical to think he was around.
I agree that the Dory issue, on it's own is an obstacle I'm sure they would be able to overcome- if not for the fact it's one of many obstacles. It's one of many things he's been keeping from her, and that in addition to the locking her up all the time, not trusting her to keep herself safe and the fake coronation is not okay. [Cassie's much more laid back and understanding than I am. I mean, the dude was walking around with a Cassie stand in. Ass. And I bet had he suggested that they do that, she would have been all for it, but he didn't even tell her. I wonder if they might have actually fought about that had more important things not been happening- which is often the case when Mircea pulls something assholey.]I think it's a matter of time before these things start adding up and driving Cassie away. I think in the end it's never going to work because she's not what Mircea is looking for in a partner and he's not what she is looking for. She needs a partner and I don't think Mircea will ever view her as one, or at least not any time soon.
Also, as gross as it is, I have never been able to shake the paternal vibe he has going with her. As recently as the bath scene where she's handcuffed... And he walks in on Cassie and Marco disapprovingly, I totally got a father vibe as opposed to a boyfriend one [ despite her state of undress and bondage situation, and that's saying something!] I think he treats her more like a daughter than a wife. The fact he'd love for her to go out and spend his money, or sit at home safe... even when he's locking her up. He grounded her and told her a male friend wasn't aloud to come over or call! Dads all over the planet have done that at one point.
I'm slightly surprised that Mircea never mentioned Dory to Cassie when she was a child. When you're acting in an almost fatherly manner to a youngish child, it would seem quite natural to mention that you had a daughter of your own. I don't doubt that Mircea doesn't talk about Dory to strangers (and may have cautioned Tony not to either), but since Tony was considered family at that point, it surprises me that Dory's name never, ever cropped up in the conversation. It makes me wonder if, unlikely as it seems, Tony didn't know.I have to admit, I hate it where Mircea tells Cassie to go shop on his credit cards, like that's all she should worry her pretty little head about. I find it a little demeaning. I guess that makes her his trophy wife.
I have to agree with a lot that has been said here. I like Mircea, alot, even. However, I don't like his relationship with Cassie. I do agree that without the geis, they likely never would have gotten together. It hasn't happened yet where we are in the books, but Mircea was mostly out of his mind from the geis when he claimed Cassie. He still had some presence of mind, which is why he was able to stop himself from having sex with her, then, but that was even because he didn't want her to end up as the dominant partner in the relationship which is likely what would have happened had they completed the geis then. He even tells her that during one of their arguments. I was shocked she stayed with him after that, but yeah, the fake coronation would have been my walking away point, too had I actually stuck around that long.As far as Pritkin and his secrets, he didn't trust Cassie any more than she trusted him. She had her moments when she thought things were okay between them, but she wasn't exactly a fan. Before the whole thing with Rosier started, he had no reason to tell her about him. He told her not to go after the Codex, she did anyway and that's why Rosier showed up. Pritkin knew Rosier didn't want a particular spell found, but I doubt he expected Rosier to show up and attack Cassie. I think he would have warned her if he had.
I don't think I shared my favorite lines did I? Here are my favorite lines from the book:“How the hell do you think I feel?" I don't want to end up inside a woman!" He paused. "Well, at least not that way”
“Let me get this straight. First you decide I'm a demon because of a power I didn't ask for and don't even understand. Then when that falls through you label me a fallen sybil and a ho. Am I missing something or do you just not like me”
“The getup, sort of mad scientist meets Rambo, would have made me smile, except that I believe in showing respect for someone carrying that much hardware.”
“He didn’t take his eyes off me, as if he’d like to see my head mounted on his wall over a sign reading PROBLEM SOLVED.”
Mod
That last one if one of my most favorites.
Although Pritkin didn't play a major part in TtD, I found his and Cassie's interactions amusing. Out of all the characters she didn't really know, I thought Pritkin was the only one she strongly reacted to and felt like she had to justify herself to. Of course, I would be too if I was on the end of that receiving glare. Whereas everytime I reread TtD, I find myself more convinced that the geis played a huge part in the interactions between Cassie and Mircea.
Remember though, The Geis can only work if the feelings are already there in the first place. It can't work if there is nothing to intensify.
I agree, Zeenat. I said that the geis played a part but not the cause of their interactions. Cassie does state an attraction for Mircea, even as a little girl. When Mircea touches Cassie at the table, that's when the geis comes into play, I assume, and changes everything.
Which also means that Mircea is attracted to an adult Cassie too. And it's more than just attraction at a physical level, they genuinely like each other. I'm sure without the geis it could have resulted in dating if situations were normal.
It's funny, instead of re-reading the book I'm listening to the audio. While it's not the best audiobook it made me realyze how much knowledgeable Cassie was at the beginning of the series (as far as her current reality was).When I read the book for the first time I thought that Pritkin was a real a**whole but in reality it was a plot to murder him. There is nothing like sending a warrior mage with poor social graces and ignorant about vampire society to irritate them and maybe set an example by removing him.
Zeenat wrote: "Which also means that Mircea is attracted to an adult Cassie too. And it's more than just attraction at a physical level, they genuinely like each other. I'm sure without the geis it could have res..."I always wonder what it would have been like if Mircea approached the relationship treating Cassie as an equal. If they were evenly matched, would they have developed a pretty normal relationship?
I thinks vampires and normal relationships do not compute.
Unless that vamp is LC McAwesome. He seems to sincerely want a normal relationship with Dory.
Mod
LOL, this is a good point. The Consul (and presumably most vamps) consider LC's thing for Dory to be a perversion, and when LC first started lusting over Dory she was considered to be insane and possibly borderline psychotic. (Yes, we know more now, but LC didn't when he first wanted to see her).So yeah, I stand by my statement that vamps and normal relationships are an oxymoron. :D
Well LC is an exception... He is the most human vamp and he hates stupid games that vamps typically play. He has honor.
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Yeah, I can't get over LC and buttercup yellow. I think it would work fine on Radu (him being fabulous n' all), but it just doesn't seem quite LC's style.I'm now trying to picture Dory's face if she saw LC wearing that outfit that Cassie describes in Touch the Dark. I think Dory (a jeans & t-shirt kind of gal) would fall off her chair laughing. Maybe it's his wardrobe that'll causes the future bumps in their relationship LOL!
Didn't he pick out some real "girlie" lingerie for Dory in the last book? Seems to me that he wants "his girl" to look as pretty as he does. But I have to respect him - he decided he wanted to be with Dory, and he didn't give a damn what anyone said about it. Even Dory!
I guess by normal I meant a relationship in which both parties can trust each other and don't have to wonder if it's a based on political maneuvering.
Mod
Hmm... does LC have lingerie...? Food for thought!
Haha in this group you have to be really specific Claire... we misinterpret everything we possibly can :D
Okay, on the Mircea keeping Dory a secret. I think that VERY few people ACTUALLY know about her. Because yes, her life was constantly in danger for a long time, and also, she wasn't supposed to exist. I have a feeling even Tony didn't and maybe still doesn't know about her, unless he is keeping up with the vamp world. At first, Mircea's attitude toward Cassie kind of bugged me, because it seemed way to overprotective and such, THEN after reading the Dory books, and seeing her get cut up by Drac, it all made more sense. I think when Cassie gets hurt or runs off, he can't help but remember how he has found Dory at points, and I think that pre-geis Dory was the most important part of his life. I think he would defy everything to keep her safe. I think that he sees Cassie as human (which she is) and much more breakable (which she is) and even though she has survived thus far, I think it vamps could have heart attacks he'd have died a long time ago from Dory scaring him. And if not, Cassie would have put him over the edge. I think he can't help but want to protect the other biggest part of his life, since he can't do that with Dory. I think (and hope) that now that Dory is on the Senate (at least temporarily) Mircea will be able to calm down a bit about her safety, now that some of her stuff is resolved, and stop taking it all out on Cassie.I think that post-geis and while the geis was REALLY bad Cassie moved way way up in importance in his life. He does love her, I believe that, and while I think the geis sped it up, I still think they would have ended up dating. I think that not only because Cassie has always been involved with the vamps, but also because of the Consul. I think ol' Snakey has plans that even Mircea and Marlowe combined don't know about. I think no matter what Cassie would have been maneuvered into a relationship with a vamp in the end.
Reading these books and discussing the timeline again reminds me of another big warning sign over Missie.Mircea has only known Cassie as an adult for two months (and I'm not counting his time with her as a child. That has no bearing on an adult sexual relationship.) This guy's been a player for 500 years, but now I'm supposed to accept he's given all that up for a woman he's known for two months? I don't find that credible.
We don't know an awful lot about Mircea's past, but even in the bits and pieces we've learned, he seems no stranger to danger (ha, that rhymed!) What I mean by this is that it's not like he confronted death for the first time in 500 years and was so shaken by it that he immediately fell head over heels for the woman who saved him. I think Mircea has probably had several (or numerous) near death experiences and possibly faced lots of fights and other dangers, so I don't think the geis experience was enough to shake him out of a lifestyle that he'd been following for five centuries.
I think Mircea might be a serial monogamist (unless that's giving him too much credit LOL!) I don't doubt that he cares for the women that he's been with. Look at how he has good relations with Ming-de. There's no doubt a lot of politics involved there too, but I also get the sense that he has a degree of fondness for her, whilst probably feeling glad he's not with her at the same time! I see Cassie as just another in this long line. The wife thing wasn't meant to happen, but Mircea doesn't let an opportunity slip by. How absolutely perfect to have 'married' the new Pythia! The Consul probably gave him a raise. She no doubt approves of someone who can make smart decisions whilst under extreme pressure! :D
I just can't accept that Mircea's turned his back on the habits of a looooong lifetime. Oh, and the woman he claims is 'the one' just happens to have an incredible power that the Senate's been lusting after for centuries! And when Mircea told Cassie he loved her? So what! I bet he tells all his women that he loves them. And, in his own way, he probably does. But it doesn't last.
Here here! Plus while it's not an argument against Mircea, or even an argument pro Pritkin, there's something hopelessly romantic about Cassie being the first woman Pritkin's loved since his wife... It makes me feel like she has more importance in Pritkin's life than in Mircea's.
D'you think we'll have first time readers about? I'll spoiler this, just in case.
(view spoiler)
Oh Lord. Everything I write IS an Ode to John Pritkin. I NEED PSYCHIATRIC HELP.
It's not on purpose! I swear!
Lol it's okay, you can be in Pritkin's corner, because I am firmly in Mircea's. From what I can tell, I don't think Mircea has loved any woman except Dory, but that's platonic, not romantic, since his wife died. I think that the geis played a big part in his loving Cassie after only two months, but I think he really does love her. And yes, I'll admit it, Pritkin loves her too. They have a level of trust he doesn't have with others (excluding Jonas, but...that's Jonas). OH, on Jonas, I totally know why him and Pritkin get along so well. It's the hair. It's like how Radu and LC get along, it's all about their shapely legs, Jonas and Pritkin are besties because of the crazy hair.
Aileen, I love it that you're firmly Team Mircea, because we couldn't have such good debates if we all felt the same. So three cheers for Missie! :)I do think Mircea never really got over his wife, and I think she really is his One True Love. (Despite being deeply cynical of Mircea, I seem to be a romantic fool over this idea.) I think he cares for all his other women, but no-one touched his heart quite like his wife did. And I think that's possibly why he has such an awkward relationship with Dory. She reminds him of his wife and he probably feels incredibly guilty that he caused her to be born dhampir and that he was inadvertently responsible for her mother's torture and death. Maybe he finds it hard to look Dory in the eye sometimes because deep down he's racked with guilt. And the fact that she looks so much like her mother won't help.
See, I'm not a total Mircea hater!! :D
Lia, Yes, I agree completely! It's very easy for me to imagine Mircea with another women, but impossible for me to picture Pritkin with one. I think that speaks volumes.
Finally, Aileen, I'm laughing so much at your besties talk! I need to find a bestie for Marlowe. I wonder if he likes toe-sucking ....
Lol oh we KNOW Marlowe and Mircea are besties. They are firmly in cahoots together!! It's why Marlowe knows so much, he learned from Mircea. And Snakey but...
Aileen wrote: "Lol oh we KNOW Marlowe and Mircea are besties. They are firmly in cahoots together!! It's why Marlowe knows so much, he learned from Mircea. And Snakey but..."I hope so. I can never tell if Marlowe is more on Snakey's side or Mircea. I tend to think he's more Snakey's friend but would love to see him forced to choose and side w/ Mircea.
I thought it was interesting that, in the last Q & A when KC was talking about Dory being elevated to the senate, she said LC, Marlowe and Mircea knew, because they’re a part of the consul’s “clique”. So, there ya go, they have a 'clique'!It doesn't entirely resolve the question about Marlowe vs Mircea or the Consul, though. I think those guys together are all one powerful faction on the Senate, but that doesn't mean they always agree. I still don't know which way Marlowe would jump if pushed. Probably The Consul, but who knows? I agree it would be a really interesting clash of loyalties and I'd love to see it happen.
Mod
And Im also firmly in the Pritkin corner, and I can't see him with any other woman but Cassie.. It's meant to be goddammit!
I think Mircea's a good bit older than Marlowe, probably well over 100 years older. Marlowe's older than LC though maybe only by 70ish years. I think Marlowe and Mircea probably knew each other from when Snakey Face and Mircea were on the European Senate. I guess they would have known LC from then too, though he wasn't on that Senate until later, but he was Radu's child, so that gives him a family connection to Mircea.I could imagine a scenario where Her Snakeness was getting fed up with whoever was in charge in Europe and decided to venture across the Atlantic. There were no doubt factions in the Euro Senate too before the split, and I guess she took the vamps who were loyal (and powerful) with her. I think LC only got on the Euro Senate after the North American vamps left.
I think it's potentially interesting that Mircea, LC and Dory have a family connection. Marlowe's family connection is with the Consul. Don't know if that will mean anything long term.
I think Aileen makes good points about Mircea. I am a Prissie fan, but honestly I'll be sad at Missie ending because I find Mircea's feelings genuine. Mircea might have loved other girls along the way, but that's just cause he lived a long time. I think you are allowed one true love for every decade right? :P
I think Mircea's feelings are genuine because of how different Cassie is from his former lovers. Cassie didn't become interested in him because of his power or wealth, and that's a trait she shares with Mircea's first wife. I think it's possible that Mircea's so attached to Cassie because she reminds him of his first wife! Here is a plucky, ordinary woman who refuses to be cowed by his status. It must be a heady thing to have a chance at a real relationship for the first time in 500 years not based on political manipulation.But that doesn't mean Mircea didn't pursue Cassie in the first place because of political ends, or that he won't keep trying to use her power as Pythia to his advantage. I just think it means that he loves her, he is very concerned for her safety, and that concern is smothering her. Who knows? Maybe Mircea's lingering guilt over his first wife is what's fueling part of his obsessive need to protect Cassie.
I think you hit the nail on the head Claire.
Zeenat wrote: "I think you hit the nail on the head Claire."Thanks!
Plus there's that scene in HtM when Marco says Mircea's scared, and he's not used to it. Fear can make people do things they wouldn't otherwise. This apparently also applies to centuries-old master vampires.
Well, I must say I rarely feel compassion for Mircea, but when you think about it, he is one of the rare vamps to have his family with him on the undead side of life, or well, a part of it. I don't even want to consider how the fact that he managed to turn Radu and Vlad, but failed to save his wife and turn her over makes him feel. And Dory says quite helpfully in MD how most of the older vamps have issues that don't just go away. In fact, his interest in Pythias makes me even more convinced that he's looking for a way to save his wife.
I think that is Mircea's weaknesses: his loved ones. His weakness for those he loves is what trips him up.
Zeenat wrote: "I think that is Mircea's weaknesses: his loved ones. His weakness for those he loves is what trips him up."Yes, but that's also what lets him hang on to some semblance of humanity after 500 years.
I can't imagine that Mircea would seriously consider saving his wife...I mean, bringing a person back into the timeline is bound to make huge changes.
Yeah but he was willing to change time to save Radu. At first I was sceptical about him trying to save his wife, but the more you guys talk about it, the more I'm starting to believe that it's a pretty big possibility.I mean, I know he has a fondness for Cassie, but he was willing to sleep with her in this book when he barely knows her (makes me wonder how many times he's done this?), to save Radu and also to stop the geis and have Cassie under his control (seeing as at this point, Cassie has already taken him back in time in EtN, he's seen his mark and wouldn't sleep with her then because he didn't want to be under her power). He admits he came back with the intention of trying to break the geis before it was doubled, but I bet he had a few other perks as well (such as a Pythia under his control).
On Mircea saving his wife, I think he could do it without affecting the timeline. If Mircea persuaded a Pythia to travel back to just about the time his wife died, they could snatch her away and bring her to the present time. The past isn't affected because she was about to drop out of that timeline anyway and the future hasn't happened yet so it can't be disrupted (well, in theory!)The big reason I think Mircea might want to save his wife is because he's such a brooder and dwells on the past (which you see in his treatment of Dracula). When you couple that with his attitude toward his family (well, the good members of his family, anyway!) I feel it fits Mircea's personality to still be slightly obsessed with his long dead wife.
Karen Chance Fans
Books mentioned in this topic
Touch the Dark (other topics)Greywalker (other topics)
*slap* Right... no more Prince of Persia for me the next couple of weeks XD
But yeah, she probably would end up with a mage of some kind.. they have more toys ^^ I seriously can't shake the image of a gun crazy Cassie in Shadowland.. that was just so awesome! I hope Cassie will show more of her "talent" with firearms, we all know Pritkin would find that insanely hot ;)