Jane Austen discussion
General Discussion
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Though it is obvious why Lydia wants to run off with Wickham, why does Wickham run off with Lydia?
Susan wrote: "oh my goodness! Dorcas Lane was Lydia!?! I've never realized this. I am a devote Larkrise fan and have watched P&P too many times to count. How in the world did I miss this one? thanks, Karlyne...."I've seen many episodes of Lark Rise and I never realized it either - wow!
Yes, Mr. Bennett is sort of a figurehead in the family. The motivating factor in that family is Mrs. Bennett and her wanting to marry all her girls to men who make gads of money, in those days you only wanted the best for your children and it does ring true to today's parents even more so with the term helicopter parents, I will be counting myself off as one of those once my daughter is in college.
Yes, Julia Sawalha was the best Lydia. Another TV series she was added to in the 4th year was Jonathan Creek. Caroline Quentin played the sidekick from 1998 to 2003, and Julia took over in the 4th and last season. Murder mystery series, Jonathan was a magic trick inventor.Patg
I first saw Julia in the PBS series of the mother and the other lady were drunks, and she was terrific in that. She is also in Cranford, another BBC video that I watched a while ago. She is a very good actress.
The series was Absolutely Fabulous, Julie shined in those comedies ass the only sensible one in that family. The American version was Cybill with Cybill Shepherd, wasn't the same for me.
Austen writes: "...their elopement had been brought on by the strength of [Lydia's] love, rather than by his; and [Elizabeth] would have wondered why, without violently caring for [Lydia], he chose to elope with her at all, had she not felt certain that his flight was rendered necessary by distress of circumstances; and if that were the case, he was not the young man to resist an opportunity of having a companion."Wickham was burdened not only with his debts to the local Brighton merchants (these alone would not have prompted his flight), but by his "debts of honor" - the obligation to repay gambling debts were very serious business. Again, Austen writes: "He confessed himself obliged to leave the regiment, on account of some debts of honour, which were very pressing."
Lydia clearly leaves with the conviction that she is going to be married - in her letter, she says she is going to Gretna Green and will sign her next letter as "Lydia Wickham"; even when they wind up in London, she is still convinced that they will marry. The marriage is clearly effected (as Mr. Bennet infers and Mrs. Gardiner confesses) by a large sum of money. Mr. B attributes this to Mr. Gardiner's generosity; only later do we find that it was supplied by Darcy.
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Interesting Robin, I never knew there was a connection between AbFab and Cybill. I like Shephard but AbFab just seems one of those shows beyond compare.
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Wickham wound up very lucky in this case, didn't he J? As the young Jane Austen in Becoming Jane says, "getting better than he deserved."
I rather like stories about Lydia and Wickham so I bought The Phantom of Pemberley - A Pride and Prejudice Murder Mystery by Regina Jeffers. I'll be adding it to my read file soon.L & M have big parts.
Patg
So far it is going along nicely, though you are pulled out of the story when the author stops to give you a rundown on P&P. Frankly, I can't believe anyone unfamiliar with P&P would pick up a book like this if they were familiar with it. So, I do a bit of skimming. The mystery is very good so far.Patg
I will borrow this one from the library, thanks patg
It probably was one-sided, and don't you think Lydia wanted to get away from her mother who launches into hysterics and must get her daughters married was a bit much? Anyway, I think she wanted the marriage and be he scalawag or reprobate, she was going to get her wish in the end.
I must have not picked that up in the story, nor the video. Anyway, good observations, but maybe Lydia wanted to get away and try adulthood and marriage, all the other sisters were getting involved or soon to be involved. You can be too much alike re; Lydia and Mrs. Bennet, and want to be your own person, also.
Lydia is a symbol for Austen of how women should not behave. She is selfish, has no sense of social propriety and quite rightly is punished by a marriage to a man also lacking in moral character. The way she throws herself at soldiers rather reminds me of the way the current generation of women throw themselves at celebrities. I agree with comments made already on here that Wickham was not strong enough to resist her and had no intention of taking things so far.
Besides what's already been mentioned...I find Lydia a hopelessly spoiled, self-centered individual who just lives to have the last laugh. Or to shock. As the youngest, I think it delighted her to no end to "take the place" of her older sisters--to rise in family position and status above them. She was interested in Wickham, perhaps bored in Brighton, and given the chance of possibly trapping Wickham (yes, I believe she is that crafty) while doing something shocking and unexpected, she jumped with both feet before considering the long-term consequences of her actions. Although, if she had considered them, I'm not certain she would've cared. She doesn't strike me as an individual who really cares WHAT people think of her---only THAT they think of her.
True, very well put. Thanks for the insight, Jenny.
Marjorie wrote: "... (Mr. Bennett) needed to pay a lot more attention to his finances. His estate was entailed, and he could do nothing about that -- but income from the estate was not entailed; he could certainly have saved from the income for the maintenance of his wife after his death, and for the portions of the daughters, and he seems to have made no effort at all. He is mainly concerned with what is "convenient" for himself, and always seems to take the path of least resistance."And, indeed, after he returns from London and is talking to Lizzie, he says something very similar.
But, see, he knew himself, and all the things he coulda/woulda/shoulda done - but didn't. That knowledge at least, IMO, saves him from being totally self-centered.
Lydia, from how Austen leaves her at P&P's end, doesn't learn, doesn't mature, and so deserves her reputation as self-centered.
Austen writes: "...why, without violently caring for her, [Wickham] chose to elope with [Lydia] at all, had [Elizabeth] not felt certain that his flight was rendered necessary by distress of circumstances; and if that were the case, he was not the young man to resist an opportunity of having a companion."I think the flight and the elopement, while basically the same, have to be addressed separately. It is clear that Wickham must leave the area by the "distress of his circumstances" and it is clear that the distress is the result of gambling debts (debts of honor). To owe the tradesmen as much as he did was not unusual for a military man - nor for anyone, in that era - but debts of honor were another matter. They could result in duels, suicides, social ostracism. It is possible that Lydia said something like, "take me with you", and Wickham, as the book states, was not one to resist having a companion, and that converted the flight to an elopement. She had every expectation that Wickham would not carry her off with any intention other than marriage, as the letter she writes prior to her departure clearly suggests.
There were, in fact, few consequences to a man who seduced young girls. Austen writes that his "intrigues, all honored with the title of seduction" had extended into every tradesman's family. The consequences to the young lady were very great, but not for the man. Compare Willoughby's social status to Eliza's, or Henry Crawford's to Maria Rushworth, and as Elizabeth observes, Lydia has no brothers to avenge her honor, and Wickham might reasonably conclude from her father's conduct that he would do very little in her defense.
That's right, J, there would be no one to bring Wickham to book, especially since Lydia was a willing participant. Even if she hadn't been, it would have been difficult to get her "ruin" avenged; as you say, she has no brothers to fight for her, no money to spend on her defense and a very indolent father. Elizabeth has enough spirit to follow him and give him a good piece of her mind, but she is completely aware that Lydia was a willing party to the runaway and that it would do no good at all. I'm guessing that if Lydia had been a very young girl, pre-pubescent, the law would have gotten involved if pressed. Or vigilante justice might have prevailed?
Fitzwilliam Darcy should have just clobbered him when he had the chance.LOL
Yep, remember his sister! What if Wickham had managed to make off with her?!
He would have soiled her reputation along with a whole string of others who were enamored of the charms of Elliot,
Marjorie wrote: "For Mrs Bennet supporting Lydia's desire to accept the invitation of Colonel Forster's wife to go to Brighton with the regiment: " Checking the relevant passages ... I think I'm right. Austen writes: "...their elopement had been brought on by the strength of [Lydia's] love, rather than by his..." SHE trapped HIM!
"
Interesting Marjorie, but I for once disagree. It is true, as Robin has mentioned later, their affections are one-sided still with Lydia's personality she is not smart enough to "trap him.” I think it is bit too much of a calculation and bit harsh too for Lydia.
Lydia in her silly judgement thought that Wickham will actually marry her. She said in the letter that they are going to 'Gretna Green', It was a place where lovers had the opportunity to marry without having to observe the usual formalities. So her purpose was to get married, and she further mentions she'll surprise her family by signing "Lydia Wickham.” So she may be just a little scatterbrain but not cunning. Remember the well-mannered Georgina was also ready to elope with this man. So it’s not Lydia is “bad” but to emphasise how villainous Wickham is. That’s may be why Austen chose both girls in the equal age contrasting personality still both get fooled by this man.
And your idea of the elopement is not about money is quite interesting. Still doesn't anyone think the reason he must've picked someone like Lydia is because he is shrewd?
Going after Georgina Darcy didn't work out because he went after a rich man's sister who had ways to settle such a matter, other than giving in to Wickham's schemes. Here he picked a daughter (who’s is willing to give in) of a man with four more daughter’s reputation is on stake. I’d say that’s trapping. I feel he did quite well.
I think we can forever argue on the motive behind the elopement because it is not given. But on my part I believe his willingness to take Lydia is either a pure piece of rakishness or an attempt to blackmail Mr. Bennet and extort as much money as possible. I believe it is the money. Isn’t that why he was after Georgina and walked away when Darcy refused to give his sister’s inheritance?
Yes, Amalie, my thoughts exactly, I think Wickham was trying to extort money, but why do that to your benefactor's son, he was a scheming manipulator, and it took Darcy to finally track him down. But the Bennets did not have the money to squander on the likes of Wickham.
Robin wrote: "Fitzwilliam Darcy should have just clobbered him when he had the chance.LOL"Yes Robin! I always wished why Darcy didn't at least challange Wickham for a dual like Col. Brandon did. (Sigh) I would’ve loved to see Colin Firth in a dual. :D
yes me too, that would have put Wickham in his place.
Just to speculate, who do you think might win? My thoughts are sadly foreshadowed by Mrs Bennet's "Wickham will kill him for sure!"
Marjorie wrote: "For Mrs Bennet supporting Lydia's desire to accept the invitation of Colonel Forster's wife to go to Brighton with the regiment: " ... she received an invitation from Mrs Forster, the wife of the..."
That is an excellent point, Marjorie. With examples her parents set her, perhaps Lydia was doomed from the start.
So, do you think that Mrs. Bennet just got sillier and Mr. Bennet lazier as time went on? Jane was the most "good" of the girls as well as the eldest, then Elizabeth, and so on down the line. How was it that Jane and Elizabeth overcame the handicap of a very stupid mother and managed to become intelligent women while the other three in varying degrees succumbed to their mother's silliness and, in Lydia's case, even surpassed it?Oh, and Amalie, I think that if Wickham did indeed win, it would be because he cheated!
Amalie, Wickham is a dastardly scoundrel. The honorable one would be Darcy. At the outset he would think the duel as foolhardy and call off the duel saving both Wickham and he the embarassment..
I don't know, Robin; once a duel was accepted, it became a matter of honor. To back out would be to be branded a coward forever. I think that by this time in history dueling had been banned, but it still did go on and was considered very serious. Even when a challenge was issued in anger and haste, once it was accepted about the only way out of it was a public apology. I can't see Wickham ever starting a duel, because he was mighty cautious of his own skin, but if he'd been challenged he might have participated. Or he might have run off to... Australia!
Oh Yes, I forgot the honor thing,I was just stating that Darcy being a man of honor would have done the sensible thing, but I see your point. It was just a thought that we had, not like it was going to happen?
Karlyne wrote: "So, do you think that Mrs. Bennet just got sillier and Mr. Bennet lazier as time went on? Jane was the most "good" of the girls as well as the eldest, then Elizabeth, and so on down the line. How ..."It's POSSIBLE (but unlikely as we read about their characters) that the Bennett parents started out with better intentions and then just got lazier and lazier in their parenting skills. I mean, I have four kids myself and I can honestly say there are certain things my youngest gets away with that my oldest didn't. It's also possible that Elizabeth and Jane spent more time with the calming (more appropriate) examples of the Gardiners than their younger siblings and learned their behavior patterns from them.
At work when I see siblings, none of them act the same. They all have their own personalities.
What, Robin, are you saying that these characters aren't real?!? (sometimes I forget they're not...)Jenny, I'd forgotten about the Gardiners; I think their good example had to have helped Jane and Elizabeth.
Good point, Robin. Neither of my siblings are like me at all. My kids all share the same sense of humor but that's about where their similarities end, too!
Karlyne wrote: "What, Robin, are you saying that these characters aren't real?!? (sometimes I forget they're not...)Jenny, I'd forgotten about the Gardiners; I think their good example had to have helped Jane a..."
LOL, Karlyne! I think all of us would LOVE for them to be real so that we can swoon over Darcy (whether you imagine him as Matthew or Colin), personally slap some sense into Lydia (or try to, anyway).....and give Wickham a "kicky" message he would not soon forget. ;-D
I have a relative who's inlaws bear this theory out. The parents are a WRECK and of their three children, only one of them is relatively normal and rational. The other two are as flighty and dramatic as their parents.
like my mom and sister are like two peas in a pod, growing up I didn't care for that, but now that I am older, I like that we are growing out of that and just being mom and daughter. My daughter has musical abilities that she and I share somewhat, my husband has no music inclinations, but she has his knack for getting math, she is into Algebra in 8th grade.
I just realized that it's no wonder these characters are so real to me; I've known them since I was a young teenager. In fact, I've known them longer than just about everybody I currently know and love. I'd be depressed except that they are such very good friends!
I know we sometimes do that with people in books, I just read Russian Winter and they characters seemed so real. check out that book. But as far as Austen she made her characters believable, whether it was Anne from Persuasion, Or Lizzie from Pride and Prejudice, or Elliot, Wentworth, and they do become a part of our lives for as long as we read her books.
I think he must have planned to leave the regiment because of his debts, Lydia heard of it and thought it would be romantic to elope and be the first to marry before her sisters had done so. I really don't think he agreed to get back to Lizzy or get money from her father or even Darcy. I think he just did so because he had a willing girl to spend tme with. I am pretty sure he'd have left her once he got tired of her. It is said in P&P that she cared longer for him than he did for her, so he must have liked her enough to run off with her at least in the beginning.
I honestly believe that Wickham only went off with Lydia because he lost the attention of Elizabeth, along with her favor. And let us not forget he also lost his golden ticket, the young heiress Mary King. I think all of this combined and the rumor, I am sure he heard, of Elizabeth may marry Darcy, just might have provoked Wickham to think running off with Lydia would be a good idea.
Valarie wrote: "I am sure he heard, of Elizabeth may marry Darcy, just might have provoked Wickham to think running off with Lydia would be a good idea."I agree with everything else you said but the above quoted. He ran off with her while Lizzy herself had no idea she'd meet Darcy at Pemberley. Consequently, there were no rumors about the two. Those only came into being once Jane and Bingley got engaged. You know, the sort of "so maybe his best friend and her sister might get together now that they are constantly in company with one another..."
I think Wickham is lazy. Lydia was there so she made an easy conquest. She may have thrown herself at him as he was making a hasty retreat from Brighton. She lacked the common sense to tell her she was not the type of girl Wickham would ever marry. She knew the rumors about Mary King but didn't seem to understand or care. In running away with Wickham, Lydia does the very thing Lizzie feared would happen-or very nearly anyway. With all those soldiers around and no dowry to speak of, Lydia could easily have become a "camp follower." I think that's all Wickham saw her as- a bit of fun. POSSIBLY he thought her family would come up with something. I don't think he thought about Lizzie, however, how would the starched up Darcy like to be best friends with a guy whose future sister-in-law ran away with a man? Though I really don't think Wickham thought that far.
In the P&P miniseries with Colin Firth, it was implied that Wickham actually did like Lydia when Elizabeth was thinking back on his behavior. I think Wickham viewed Lydia as a kindred spirit because both of them liked to have fun and flirt without any thought to the consequences of their actions. He knew very well she didn't have any money, so for him to run off with her, he must have liked her and wanted her. He's obviously a bit of a predator too since he has a thing for teenage girls. Wickham was after Georgianna for her dowry, but Lydia only had her charms to recommend herself. She managed to seduce him which is saying something! He lucked out with Darcy paying his debts - there is no way he could have anticipated that because there were no rumors about Darcy and Elizabeth.
Susan wrote: "oh my goodness! Dorcas Lane was Lydia!?! I've never realized this. I am a devote Larkrise fan and have watched P&P too many times to count. How in the world did I miss this one? thanks, Karlyne. I ..."Larkrise to Candeford was a great show and a great many British actors passed thru there.
Yes - Julia Sawalha (the actress) that played Dorcas Lane also played Lydia in the BBC version of Pride and Prejudice.
Also Mrs. Macey from Larkrise is the same actress who played Fanny Dashwood from Sense and Sensibility.
Also Enid Fairley from Larkrise is Elinor from Sense Sensibility (Hattie Morahan).
Lydia only had her charms to recommend herself. She managed to seduce him which is saying something! **
I fear that for Wickham, Lydia was simply 'free sex' - cheaper than a prostitute. And since he was up to his ears in debt, he couldn't afford even to pay for sex!
One wonders, grimly, just what he'd have done had he not been paid off to marry her. Presumably just left the lodgings they were in one morning, and disappeared, maybe heading up north or whatever. At some point Lydia would have twigged he wasn't coming home, and then sent urgent letters to her parents. What they would have done I don't know either - again, presumably Mr B would have gone up to see her, and cobbled together some kind of make-shift arrangement for her to stay 'somewhere', rather along the lines of Maria Bertram after she was ruined by her adultery with Henry Crawford, only less salubrious as Mr Bennet didn't have as much money as Sir Thomas to tuck his fallen daughter away out of sight of 'decent people'.....
Would Lydia have stay 'tucked away', though? I think she'd have preferred to have become a true courtesan, leeching off men richer than her, but never saving any of the money, and ending up poverty-stricken once her charms had run out at 40 or earlier. Pretty grim.
Julia Sawalha also played totally against Lydia type when she played the sensible, endlessly exasperated daughter in Absolutely Fabulous.A tribute to an accomplished actress to play such different roles so convincingly.
Jane Austen
Books mentioned in this topic
Horatio Hornblower 1 - 11 (other topics)Cranford (other topics)
Just guessing here Karlyne, but may be because Kitty has much sense than Lydia, and isn't Lydia is more attractive and sexy?