Fantasy Book Club discussion
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Sailing to Sarantium
2010 Group Read Discussions
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8/10 Sailing to Sarantium- Sarantium and Byzantium
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I was lucky enough to be in Istanbul several years ago, and of course, saw Hagia Sophia, obviously the inspiration for the emperor's dome. Shoot! Now I can't remember what they called it in the book. But there were many parallels - emperors with absolute power, chariot races, temples, mosaics, etc. Fascinating city, BTW.
Sandra AKA Sleo wrote: "I was lucky enough to be in Istanbul several years ago, and of course, saw Hagia Sophia, obviously the inspiration for the emperor's dome. Shoot! Now I can't remember what they called it in the b..."I think it was called 'The Lord's Wisdom' or 'The Creator's Wisdom' in the book ... almost a direct tranlation of Hagia Sophia (the latter means 'wisdom' iirc).
I would love to visit Istanbul. Certainly one of the top cities in the world I'd pick to see.
Chris wrote: "I would love to visit Istanbul. Certainly one of the top cities in the world I'd pick to see."It was awesome and I was thrilled! Had always wanted to go there. Studied it in my Art History classes eons ago.
Jon wrote: "Sandra AKA Sleo wrote: "I was lucky enough to be in Istanbul several years ago, and of course, saw Hagia Sophia, obviously the inspiration for the emperor's dome. Shoot! Now I can't remember what..."Oh yes! That's right. Kay must've been there, don't you think?
A mosaic from Hagia Sophia
I've seen Hagia Sophia and the mosaics in Ravenna. Also good background.Probably a Wikipedia-level background suffices.
Actually, I found it irritating that Kay didn't use the real names and places. I kept having to shift gears between history and the books. So what if he chooses to introduce fantasy or re-write history? Maybe he felt freer if unconstrained by our expectations. (If so, he failed, because any student of history couldn't help but compare his world and ours.)
That's an interesting take on Kay's style, Ron. I think that he uses history more to define his setting and tone for each book, but then utilizes the fantasy world to do what he wants with it. By creating his own world, he can pick and choose from the history elements. He can totally fictionalize an event, and he has more freedom to create the characters. Also, magic is an important element in this story. It's not as in your face as a Steven Erikson novel, but it's there. By stepping away from "our" world and "our" history, he can also stretch the imagination with magic and its effects.
My experience of Hagia Sophia was utter amazement at its size. Then, after finding out that most of the mosaics, some of which were supposed to have been truly a marvel, had been removed or covered over, I just wandered around trying to reconcile myself to the fact that this is what happens. I hadn't read Sailing to Sarantium yet--didn't even know about it then--but I sure could relate to Crispin's experiences once I did.Ravenna is a fantastic place to visit. It's a UNESCO World Heritage site because of the quality and endurance of the mosaics there. Justinian (Valerius) and Theodora (Alixana) and their retinue are depicted in the Basilica of San Vitale, but my favorite mosaics were in a smallish building known as the Mausoleum of Galla Placida. I h-a-d read both of Kay's Sarantine novels when I visited Ravenna and so felt like I could appreciate better what I was seeing thanks to Kay's wonderful descriptions of how Crispin and the other mosaicists thought about their art and craft.
@Ellen, I was appalled at what had been done to Hagia Sophia, too. It was, after all, originally built as a mosque, then turned into a Christian church, then those mosaics were torn down, and now it's really just a tourist attraction. There was another mosque called the Blue Mosque that was much lovelier, if not of the huge size.I've not made it to Ravenna, but for mosaics, St. Mark's Cathedral in Venice can't be beat. It was a jewel of loveliness. I hope they can keep it from falling into the sea!
But Kay's use of the Byzantine history didn't bother me at all. I didn't even think of it as being like Istanbul, as he had a map in the front. The man writes fantasy and uses settings somewhat familiar and relatable to us. I'm dying to read Lions of Al Rassan and Under Heaven.
No, Sandra, Hagia Sophia was not originally a mosque. Mohammet hadn't been born yet when Hagia Spohia was built. It was a mosque for several centuries after the Ottoman conquest. It's now a museum. This discussion illustrates the danger of fictionalizing history: causal readers get confused over what is real and what is fiction.
So, I change my mind: Kay was correct in defining a parallel world. Otherwise the naive might mistake his "history" for real history--like folks who think Irving Stone movies are true.
For me, what Kay does that I so like is to bring me into a fictional world with intriguing parallels to our own and explore the individual and relationship dynamics of the protagonists (antagonists, too) that result from the movement of larger events (fate, some would say). Few historical records capture how the political and religious currents of a particular time and place affect the individuals involved--at least with any depth. I love how Kay explores these things in his evocative made-up worlds.THEN, he throws in those fantastical elements - a zubir, mechanical birds with souls - and makes the characters we have come to identify with DEAL with those and incorporate them into their own realities. We see them grow, change their view of themselves and others, make choices that delight us or move us or horrify us. Kay's artfulness allows me to watch them do that in the contexts he constructs from choice bits of the known historical world. That is why I look for Kay's next book above all others!
Ron wrote: "No, Sandra, Hagia Sophia was not originally a mosque. Mohammet hadn't been born yet when Hagia Spohia was built. It was a mosque for several centuries after the Ottoman conquest. It's now a museum..."OOps, my dyslexia reversed the order.
I prefer Kay's shifting the context to fiction and fantasy. This frees him to focus on the human angles INSPIRED BY his imagination with the gloves off.To do the same thing from a 'real' historical period distorts things, because the 'real' story is still tied up in today's views, today's values, and the cultural biases still held. He has crafted the story and the dynamics without those biases - I find history entangling in that regard: very hard to understand what may have happened, because of who wrote the account, and the very different biases held by the people of the day.
Stories are all filtered through the individual viewpoint of the writer, then through the interpreter of that writer. The further one gets from the actual time period, the more the boundaries blur between fact, legend, then myth.
Kay's fiction accepts the myth; where 'so called real' history claims the myth does not exist.
Sarantium, in both its halves, explores this aspect in a fantasy nutshell.
"Kay's fiction accepts the myth; where 'so called real' history claims the myth does not exist." Insightful comment, Janny, and so well said. Kay riffs on this idea of history filtered through individual viewpoints with his Pertennius character (whose part is a bit larger in the second book). Who was it said something like, "History is written by the winners."
Even Pertennius is based on a real (and enigmatic, though perhaps not as--oops, not supposed to give things away) person.
Chris, I thought this book club functioned with the book read one month and the discussion the next with the assumption that everyone would have read the book. This thread isn't marked 'spoilers' but I'm curious about the stance on that issue.
Sandra, I covered that here in my intro post:http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/3...
To sum it up: yes, we can assume people have read the book except for the posts marked for no spoilers. But on the flip side, we aren't assuming anyone has read LoE.
Chris wrote: "Sandra, I covered that here in my intro post:http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/3...
To sum it up: yes, we can assume peo..."
I'm flubbing up right and left today. If all else fails read the intro, eh?
I have to admit, I did not even think to look up the history. I got caught up in the fantasy elements and totally forgot about real world historical bases. I did reread the Yeats poems.
That's the beauty of his books, Jeff. You don't have to be a history buff, nor know anything about it at all to enjoy his story. He doesn't assume that you know anything about it at all.I've found that having a little knowledge of the history, or at least the geographical area he is using, helps with name pronunciation.
Chris, I just think that it is funny that I was way more interested in rereading the literature alluded to than I was in looking up the background history. I had no idea that the emperor was based on Justinian. It's been too long since 9th grade.Quite by accident, I caught part of a documentary my wife was streaming on Netflix on the Dark Ages yesterday. It briefly covered the plague and Justinian's rule. It was way more interesting after reading the book.
Good fiction can be a door to increased knowledge and enjoyment of the "real world" as well as the other way around.
Ron wrote: "Good fiction can be a door to increased knowledge and enjoyment of the "real world" as well as the other way around."Very true. :)
This is one thing I like about Kay's work. It inspires thought beyond the pages and can even help open an awareness to the arts and history. He also makes it all so not-boring.
It's easy to see the link between the Sarantine empire of Sailing to Sarantium and the Byzantine of our world. Did you find yourself researching anything about the Eastern Roman Empire and Constantinople? Did you make comparisons to the story?
I did some research, mostly on Wikipedia. Not a whole lot, as I was afraid I'd stumble on something that might inadvertantly ruin what's to come in this book and the second volume. But it was interesting to see the influence as I read, especially the parts about the Rhodians and Emperor Valerius's desire to restore the Empire to its old greats.