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The Long Ships
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This was the most fun I've had reading in a long time. Thanks Ben!
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Maureen wrote: "p.s. the viking name generator doesn't seem to work anymore. :)"Didn't work for me either, but according to this slightly-less-interesting one, my Viking Name is Jarlebanke Frodi. I'm ok with that.
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I think it's a hard book to talk about. It's fun and action packed and engaging and entertaining and not simple, but it also isn't (or wasn't for me) all that dissectable or discuss-able. I'll be super happy if you all find otherwise, and I'll get to see how it's done. :)
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jacob! thanks for finding that -- mine is Arnora Blodaxe. now should we call ourselves by our viking names as we discuss the book is my next question? what do you say, jarlebanke? :P
Maureen wrote: "now should we call ourselves by our viking names as we discuss the book is my next question?"Nay. Hrodgeir Hvalman shall not take part in such folderol. Methinks that's where this thread went off the rails in the first place.
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I wish I was off onto the high seas with you all, but I shall have to read vicariously this time!
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Maureen wrote: "my copy has a rudyard kipling poem at the beginning. is this true for all editions?"Are you reading the NYRB edition or the older movie tie-in edition with the lady's bedroom on the cover?
Maureen wrote: "my copy has a rudyard kipling poem at the beginning. is this true for all editions?"Yes. I don't know if the original Swedish had a translation of the poem or if the earlier Barrows Mussey translation of the first volume (titled Red Orm) had it, but every edition I've seen has it.
By the way I'm reading my "reading copy," which is a well-used 1954 Knopf edition, because it has the most pleasing typeface (Electra). The NYRB edition uses this text.
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so COVETING YOUR KNOPF. :)
jacob! i am reading the sexy lady version of course! it's the best! :)
now back to that poem. i kind of wish i knew if the original book had it, because i don't really like the skew of it, and i'm not even a feminist. you'll know of course, if all the women are harridans like Asa, the mother of Odd and Orm in this book (but i'm assuming not because of the sexy lady cover -- i'm sure we can talk about that when we get there) but i never read viking sagas for the women. the women are incidental. it's about the raiding, and the sea, and the ship yes, but also their whole complicated system of justice -- they don't have to kill orm because none of them are related to the guy he killed. they go to court a lot -- i don't know if that happens here. they kill a lot of people, and have sex and drink and spout poetry. it's all pretty awesome. :) so that contrast about leaving your women behind for the ship kipling romanticizes more than i would, you know? it's not about the women -- it's about the men.
i'm only at the part where solomon has proposed his plan to exact revenge on those who sold him into slavery. it's a lot of fun so far. :)
Electra rocks. W.A. Dwiggins is my typeface hero.There are some cool ladies in the book, and even Asa's OK in my book. She's a tough old lady who cares about her son.
Mo, there is some adjudicating when they attend the Thing (or do they call it Althing? don't remember) later in the book. C'mon, they have to have a Thing.
I like how Orm befriends the people who essentially kidnapped him. I think it's just the culture, because Orm's people essentially do the same thing, so it's not like they have moral high ground or anything. They follow the Bronze Rule (is that even a thing? because i just made it up): Do it to the other guy before he does it to you. I like how whatever happens, they just roll with it and make the best out of the hand they're dealt.
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the bronze doesn't seem to be official: this guy claims your bronze rule as an iron rule: http://theunmaskedavenger.xanga.com/7...
but absolutely, i agree. ransoming was rampant -- not just with the north men but throughout europe if not the world. (julius caesar and the pirates, anyone?) and it was wild enough that as you point out, you banded together with whomever you could.
and they did their best to legislate so they'd didn't have to kill every single person they came up against in the interest of survival. it's fascinating to see how it all evolved. in fact, when i contrast it with my own modern outrage at the idea that somebody would intrude into my home my reaction is almost comical. these people lived most of their days guarding against the inevitable invasion or doing the invading themselves. :P
did you guys see the refn movie, valhalla rising? it was referenced earlier in the thread i think. it was very intense: closest to what i'd imagined viking survival would be like when your boat went astray. not nearly enough poetry and law court stuff though. :P
I saw Valhalla Rising; yes, very intense.Speaking of Viking movies, did you ever see The Vikings with Kirk Douglas? I saw it on TV with my dad when I was a little kid, and the axe-throwing scene horrified me and gave me nightmares, but then when I saw it as an adult I was surprised that it was played for laughs. Perhaps that's what was so horrifying about it.
http://movieclips.com/hT9m-the-viking...
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i did a little reading and i see the axe ladder is used there while we have the spear ladder in the long ships. that toke is rather effervescent, isn't he?
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orm just proposed marriage and was about to sail off when toke stole the muslim girl. that means i'm almost at the end of part one. where are you guys at? i think i'm going to be all comparative again. :P
I'm, um, only on chapter 4. Reading four books at the moment, and I'm too hooked on playing Lexulous on Facebook to read anything. Guh. Sorry. Will catch up.
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i can put it down for a while!
I'm on chapter 8, I think. I ended up having almost no reading time over the weekend. Mo, I'd say just read at your own pace, and if you feel like powering through it, then power through it. Jacob's read it, and I've read it twice, so we can still discuss it even if we're not caught up with you.
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and (perhaps not surprisingly) i do have some stuff i've held in reserve that i want to say -- specifically about our friend king harald blue tooth. :)
Maureen wrote: "and (perhaps not surprisingly) i do have some stuff i've held in reserve that i want to say -- specifically about our friend king harald blue tooth. :)"Do tell. I'm anxious to hear it. :)
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so there's that.
and then there's the idea of the hero. our modern and relatively late model of the hero is the superman. he is stoic and strong and stalwart. the heroes i love best are the ancient ones -- to a man, my favourites are chronic whiners and complainers. they do all the heroic stuff, yeah, but they're bitching about it the whole time. look at jason in the argonautica, one of the worst culprits -- he outsources everything to heracles and the other heroes as much as he can, and cries salty tears over his tribulations. and odysseus, what a moaner! i am stuck on this island with this hot babe and why do i have to wait so interminably long for everything? egil, my favourite from the viking sagas is a brazen poet, smacking people down and sulking when things don't go his way (oh hello, achilles). and then of course, the dane, hamlet himself. these heroes are crying all the time. which all leads up to orm. good old orm. he's a delicate constitution, and he doesn't like fighting out in the cold and would risk humiliation over his frail lungs. the guy's a northman for pete's sake! and his depressions, his sulks about how he's always getting screwed. it's the best. :)
so that's all i've got for today. any thoughts?
I like how neurotic and hypochondriacal Orm is. On the one hand, he's a total badass (view spoiler) and on the other he's a sensitive Woody Allen type. If he was a stoic, indefatigable, perfect hero, that would be boring, but that goes without saying.So, how do you like Brother Willibald? I love that guy. I like his begrudging affection for these heathenous Northmen, but then I have a soft spot for curmudgeons who have a soft spot underneath. If you don't like him yet, i predict you will by the end of part two.
Had a brief discussion with Maureen on our profile pages. Posting it here at her insistence:Maureen:
as patty pointed out and i'd agree thus far, the long ships isn't a book that lends itself to a hyper-critical read -- there's not a lot of subtext or ideas to unpack. i don't think we have to apply critical theory to this either. book discussions i enjoy most are discussions of what people like, what particularly speaks to them, or what drives them crazy. for example, when we were first talking about the book you were excited by the TOC -- i'd like to know why. is it because it is amusing to read? is it a mini-story in headlines? (i haven't read it yet because i didn't want any spoilers -- yes, sometimes i take the practice of not reading front matter too far. :P) no pressure of course -- i'm just suggesting we can talk about the book without feeling like we have to say weighty things. :) it's also interesting to compare to other books we've read or films we've seen. have you seen valhalla rising? rod had but i'm guessing you haven't? i will likely also start yapping about viking sagas, heroes and history again soon. and technology!
Jacob:
you were excited by the TOC -- i'd like to know why. is it because it is amusing to read? is it a mini-story in headlines?
Yes and yes. I tend to like descriptive TOCs, and long ones. A short list of chapters and page numbers just looks dull, whereas a table of contents broken into various parts, and further broken into chapters (with titles for both) makes me feel like I'm in for a good story. Examples from The Long Ships (early chapters, don't worry):
Prologue. How the shaven men fared in Skania in King Harald Bluetooth's time
Part One: THE LONG VOYAGE
I Concerning Thane Toste and his household
II Concerning Krok's expedition, and how Orm set forth on his first voyage
III How they sailed southwards, and how they found themselves a good guide
& so on. Nice and chewy, just like the rest of the book, don't you think?
(i haven't read it yet because i didn't want any spoilers -- yes, sometimes i take the practice of not reading front matter too far. :P)
Smart move, really--I remember being spoiled about a major plot point in one of the later Harry Potter books (view spoiler) just from reading the table of contents. Granted, I don't think you have to worry so much about spoilers in this book--the TOC doesn't give away anything too specific, and it's not as if knowing what happens later in this book is comparable to Harry Potter or other series that rely on surprise-as-drama--but that's just me.
Jacob wrote: "Had a brief discussion with Maureen on our profile pages. Posting it here at her insistence:Maureen:
as patty pointed out and i'd agree thus far, the long ships isn't a book that lends itself ..."
Well, thanks for posting that here so I can get in on this! I agree that it's a book that doesn't require critical analysis, but on the other hand it's not turn-your-brain-off entertainment, either. It's intelligently crafted with (I think) a keen, satirical insight into the mindset of the Northmen and the Christian priests.
I also like tables of contents that summarize the contents of each chapter. Huck Finn comes immediately to mind, and now that I mention it, I see a similarity to Twain's humor and Bengtsson, a sort of affectionate lampooning of social mores and attitudes, satirical but not mean-spirited (although I guess Twain could be mean-spirited).
Going back to the TOC thing, you guys totally have to read Eric Brighteyes. Samples from the TOC:
I. HOW ASMUND THE PRIEST FOUND GROA THE WITCH
II. HOW ERIC TOLD HIS LOVE TO GUDRUDA IN THE SNOW ON COLDBACK
III. HOW ASMUND BADE ERIC TO HIS YULE-FEAST
IV. HOW ERIC CAME DOWN GOLDEN FALLS
V. HOW ERIC WON THE SWORD WHITEFIRE
I love the characters. The hero is good-hearted but not especially bright, easily beguiled by a pretty face and unlucky in love (Archie); his trusty best friend, Skallagrim Lambstail, a semi-reformed berserk who hates and has no use for women, and is often unreliable despite his true-blue devotion because he has no check on his appetites (Jughead); his love interests are the witchy brunette, Swanhild the Fatherless who forever plots to get the hero all to herself (Veronica) and Gudruda the Fair, the blond, sweet-natured girl-next-door type (Betty). Then there's Ospakar Blacktooth, the dark-haired, conniving rival (Reggie). What I'm saying is, it's freaking timeless.
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i've been working like a slave for the man, so i'm too pooped to write any actual responses to either of your comments but i've just met magister rainald and expect i should be done the novel tomorrow. so i'll be back! :)
Roderity.I'm just starting the final book, THE BULGAR GOLD now. I haven't been able to read too much since I went to the clinic in the CVS drugstore on Sunday to confirm what I already surmised, that I have the pinkeye. The antibiotic eye drops are working, but it gets painful to read for too long. Now I've saved that for posterity, that in December, 2012, I got the pinkeye.
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and man, i have never had pink eye but it sounds awful. anything that makes it painful to read should not exist. i'm sorry, rod! but i'm grateful that posterity knows about this. forewarned is forearmed. does one have to go to the doctor to get pink eye medicine? somebody was telling me the other day that they were using breast milk to soothe an eye injury (not that i'm suggesting you accost any lactating ladies.) and to get away from the ever-deepening hole i am digging myself i will now suggest that it is a shame father willibald is not around to tend to your wound. :)
I'm all better, and I finished TLS last night, my third(!) read within the span of a year and a half or so. I'll read it again, undoubtedly, but I'll probably give it a few years this time.Just wondering, does anyone else, when they're reading a book, cast known actors in the roles in the movie in your head? I tend to do that, but the only characters I cast in The Long Ships were Brother Willibald and Toke. I could never see anybody but Pete Postlethwaite as Brother Willibald:
And Toke I usually pictured as being played by Kevin Durand:
Anybody else have any particular casting choices?
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i saw that david had made a comment along these lines in his review that the long ships was a guy's book, and will admit that rankled. if some men or women don't like funny adventure stories with dry-witted vikings voyaging the high seas then i don't suppose we're going to have all that much to talk about anyway. i can only talk shoes for so long. :) so no, i don't think of it as a guy's book. i think of it as an adventure novel and thus accessible to anybody of any sex who likes books in that vein. :) i can't speak for other women but i kind of hate being measured by girly standards anyway. i suspect that if you compared my interests to a typical man's they'd probably be more traditionally masculine. :P
why it isn't a five star book for me? well, i'd suggest it's because i'm pretty familiar with and love the original texts that this novel just doesn't make five star in my head. i think if you're going to do a new viking saga with poetry than it should be kick ass. and the poetry in the long ships doesn't compare for example -- egil's saga is rife with wonderful little poems about beetled brows and beer, war and justice and the choices of men.
here's one i like for example:
The King in his coat
Of steel sets this gold coil,
This ring, on my right arm
Where falcons have rested:
The gift hangs glowing,
My arm its gallows:
Honour was earned
By the feaster of eagles.
or this one:
I'm drunk, and Olvir
Is ashen-faced with ale,
This brew from the beast's horn
Bubbled through my lips;
Your feet won't follow
Instructions, old fellow,
Though my poetry patters
And pours like rain on you.
i mean, egil is the mack daddy of icelandic dis rapping, right? and orm and toke think they are poets but nothing they come up with matches up to the poetry in the old stuff for me. and as toke or orm point outs at one point, i thought there was going to be a lot more fighting. :P so i came in with a bias, and an expectation, and that's why the long ships gets only four stars from me. it's still a great book -- i love a lot of my four-star books but there's just some aspect in them that doesn't quite do it for me. but hell, it's a hilarious book -- i laughed constantly when i was reading it. those deadpan observations are precisely what tickle my funny bone (i loved the sea-sickness episodes so much!) and it certainly gets five stars for that.
i found the ending a little too abrupt but it was interesting to come back to the beginning of orm's story in order to get to the end. i find circular compositions very satisfying. (man, i'm going to steal so much from this comment for my review. :)
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Maureen wrote: "somehow a previous comment from rod about whether i thought this was a guy's book disappeared. i didn't see any of that pete postlethwaite business so i have to comment on that still! :)"Eh, I backtracked because it seemed like a stupid, chauvinistic question. I like your answer, though. You're right about the poetry, I can't think of anything that Orm and Toke came up with that matched those two examples, but that may be part of the humor, that in their minds they're these great poets when they're really just okay. Not bad for extemporaneous composing, though, I suppose.
As I was re-reading I also found the ending somewhat abrupt, wrapped up nice and neatly in just a few pages, but it was still satisfying, though. Although it owes a debt to the sagas, I don't think Bengtsson set out to do a re-creation of the saga style because it's not a tragedy. Are there any original sagas where everything ends up pretty hunky-dory for everyone?
I'm sad that Pete Postlethwaite is dead so he can't play Brother Willibald if they ever make a proper movie.
New eBay score today. 1973 Heron faux-leather-bound edition of The Long Ships, very ornate.
I didn't realize until I got it that it was illustrated. I didn't realize there ever was an illustrated edition, at least not in English. Here's a couple of lurid samples. I like how seventied-out they are.
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that is gorgeous. is that cover a nice texture? i would like to touch it!
the art reminds me of my friend andy's comic book art. :)
covet covet
does the edition have that cursed poem in?
(sorry, i still have to come back and blab some more. i've been in tooth pain hell since christmas day, and i just had a pulpotomy at the dentist today. the pain is killer. i hope you had a happy christmas, and oh look, it's 9:30! happy new year's eve and year, rod! :)
Nice texture? Eh, not particularly. It feels pretty cheap, actually, but it looks cool. The best part is that it was about $10 shipped. And of course it's got the poem in it, and I'm okay with that. Not crazy about the typeface, as it's a little small. The book is nice and portable, though.Sorry to hear about your tooth troubles, Mo. I hope that gets better for you real quick. Happy New Year!
Beautiful book! The illustration with the naked women reminds me of 60's Zap Comix
fiction files redux
Books mentioned in this topic
Egil's Saga (other topics)The King's Henchman: A Play in Three Acts (other topics)
The Long Ships (other topics)
Kóri Steadynose
Your Viking Personality: The tougher Vikings might let you on the boat, but generally only when they need ballast. Both your friends and your enemies think you're a little weird. You're not a "berserker", but you're among the toughest sane Vikings around.
You might grumble a bit at the lack of amenities on board a Viking longboat, but you can handle it. Other Vikings consider you "one of the guys".
People who've known you for a while don't always trust your word. Due to your gregariousness, you don't strike fear into the hearts of your victims. Try to be a little more surly in the future.
AWESOME!